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Linux Business

UK Councils May Dump Windows For Linux 331

Posted by timothy from the gentlemen-smashing dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Local authorities in Newham and Nottingham are expected to migrate more than 10,000 desktop computers from Windows to GNU/Linux. ZDNet has the story. "If this is seen to work in Newham, it has the potential to be a significant project, changing the perceptions of other councils," said Tim Dawes, director of local government technology consultants Nineveh."
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UK Councils May Dump Windows For Linux More

UK Councils May Dump Windows For Linux

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  • And for the Linux pessimists... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by haxor.dk ( 463614 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @04:44AM (#6141959) Homepage
    ...can anyone tell me when we ever saw a large-scale switch from Linux to Windows NT?
    • ...can anyone tell me when we ever saw a large-scale switch from Linux to Windows NT?

      Well...definitely not on slashdot ;)))

      • Though there seems to be a lot of people here that would like to see it. Hmm if anyone has access to Microsoft Partner Source they have pretty good presentation on ROI of a Windows Server vs Linux. Basically it said that with just a web server Linux has the better ROI, but when it came to an applications server Windows not only has better ROI, but a more complete applications suite, many available as both 1st and 3rd developers.

        • Re:And for the Linux pessimists... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by stephanruby ( 542433 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:58AM (#6142123)
          "...Hmm if anyone has access to Microsoft Partner Source they have pretty good presentation on ROI of a Windows Server vs Linux. Basically it said that with just a web server Linux has the better ROI, but when it came to an applications server Windows not only has better ROI, but a more complete applications suite, many available as both 1st and 3rd developers "

          In other words, Microsoft thinks it's better than Linux (except in the simplest cases). I'll be damned !

          What's next, companies making hammers saying that their hammers have better ROIs than screwdrivers. I wander how such a presentation would go. "When nailing three hundred nails, each nail costing around $0.5, each MS hammer costing $7, each LN screwdriver costing $.50, each employee costing $10 an hour, [...]; our MS Hammer does the job 5000 times more accurately than our LN Screwdriver, therefore the ROI with a MS hammer is superior to LN screwdriver by a factor of blah...blah."

          Hopefully, most IT managers already know that Linux and Windows are not necessarily interchangeable. They're both different tools with different capabilities and it sure would be stupid not to have both those tools in your toolbox.

          • Personally I can't evaluate ROI, it's not my job. But Linux and Windows isn't like comparing a hammer to a screw driver. They are one in the same. Multiple server platforms are hell to administrate. Frankly any company worth it's beans only goes with one server platform.

            Going FreeBSD for the web box, Oracle and Linux for the application server, and Windows for the file servers, just isn't piratical. When you choose a system unless there is very unusual circumstances you only go with one platform.

            Which tha

            • Re:And for the Linux pessimists... (Score:5, Interesting)

              by listen ( 20464 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @07:28AM (#6142245)
              As a long term unix developer who tried a job where windows was mandated:

              It is an absolute nightmare to do anything on Windows that isn't explicitly allowed by Microsoft.

              Have you ever tried to debug some random piece of crap VB dll or vbscript ( two of the four current VB dialects... vb.net, vb6, vbs, vba )? Its a fuckload harder than a horrible shell or perl script. Python scripts are pretty hard to make truly horrible, so those are usually even easier to debug.

              COM is really just a horrible hack to make people think there is a C++ abi on Windows. It is an absolute disgrace to actually use. This is the reason so much is done in VB on Windows. Microsoft have made C and C++ into a completely useless platform for doing anything quick. There are over 30 different types of string used in the MS apis... what does that tell you?

              Every api seems to have from 9 to 35 arguments. Nobody knows what they are for... its a cut and paste job from MSDN, yet again... and then we get on to business processes.

              People start off with a spreadsheet or a word document. They add macros to it. They expand it. They go fucking insane. The next thing you know you are expected to work out what a fucking idiot has created in the worst language known to man, VBA. There are so many random limitations in this crud that even the bog standard excel user hits them on his first macro, and starts making up crazy work arounds, each different than the other. Fuck you, Joel Spoelsky..... [joelonsoftware.com]. I can't believe that guy is proud of his "Excel macro strategy".

              And before you say .NET, yes, cloning Java is a good idea if you can't bring yourself to actually use something not invented here. But people still have to deal with the utterly brain dead attitude of windows, and Windows.Forms is still the absolute worst GUI toolkit in use... You still end up having to use COM, and anyway, why the hell wouldn't you just use Java unless you are a complete MS donkey?

              On unix, the first thing is that I have choice... I don't have to go with Apache, or Tux, or publicfile, or roxen, or zope, or roll my own with twisted [twistedmatrix.com] , my current favorite trick. On windows, if you don't use IIS, you are likely to get screwed over at any point.

              Now, be honest. You tried to use unix but you got scared. "Mummy, theres no drive letters! I'm lost!!!!! Waaaaaah!!!!". You didn't want to know what was going on. Windows protects you from knowing what the hell you are doing by restricting you to do only what their focus groups tell them. Have you ever actually worked out what was happening when something broke on Windows? Or did you just give up and abandon that functionality, and blame it on Microsoft? Microsoft, in their incompetence, provide a great scapegoat for Windows developers. If they had to use an Open Source system, this excuse would become fairly hollow...

              Anyway, when you have a problem on Unix you don't ever reach some inscrutable, impenetrable barrier. You can look at what every component does, and if required, dive into the source and fix it. There are no artificial limits. The fact that anyone can look at the source means that people are less inclined to publish crappy code... And this effect increases with time.

              To your "advantages":

              DFS - please. This is a dodgy hack of SMB - it is not "distributed" in any real sense. OpenAFS is about as good as gets there, maybe Coda when it gets stable...

              User administration: Huh? Can your helpdesk staff not learn a web front end to do this? Its not very hard to find one.... eg webmin, linuxconf. And this kind of thing is easy to customise - ie force your staff to put the required info..

              and frankly it will always be easier
              As soon as someone uses the word "frankly", it means "I'm going to say something completely unsupported and expect you to believe it."

              Comparing windows to unix is like comparing a swiss pen knife to a fully equipped machine shop, with almost every tool available to you to use. Except you can fit it in your pocket....
              • On windows, if you don't use IIS, you are likely to get screwed over at any point.

                Actually, I use Apache on win2k with JSP for my lovely porn site [autopr0n.com] and I've had no problems, (other then weird instability with tomcat 1.4). Sure, I don't have a gui front-end or anything like with IIS, but I wouldn't really have that with Apache on Linux either. Apache runs as an application in it's own little world with tomcat and leaves doesn't worry about the OS or anything else. Hell the config would work right off th

              • People start off with a spreadsheet or a word document. They add macros to it. They expand it. They go fucking insane.

                One of my pet peeves. A complicated spreadsheet is a program. A complicated spreadsheet that invokes significant numerical routines (eg, a nonlinear optimization plugin) is a program. A complicated spreadsheet that includes VBA is a program. Programs need to be designed and tested.

                Several years ago, I got kicked out of a meeting. The company was making a decision involving tens o

            • Why is it always that the Windows diehards always say that you have to go with one and only one platform (and of course that platform must be Windows)?

              That's nonsense. Not putting all your eggs into one basket is a very smart thing to do.

              What if Microsoft raises license costs for corporate users (again)?

              What if some worm knocks out half of the IIS servers (again)?

              What if (god forbid) you need some non-x86 platform, maybe something like a mainframe?

              What do you do then?

              That's the beauty of Unix. (

          • Comparing the difference between Linux and Windows to the difference between a Hammer and a screwdriver is a bit simplistic. Both are hugely complex systems that can do a lot of the same things. Almost anything you can do with a windows box you can do with a Linux box and vise versa. Sure, one specific application might not be available for one platform, but there's probably other software that will do something similar, or you can get some emulation setup going (like cygwin or wine).

            The difference is
    • It's pretty hard to see a large-scale switch away from something which has never been used on a large scale.

      Now, I'm not saying that we ever will see such a shift; but the fact that we haven't seen one yet implies absolutely nothing.

    • Re:And for the Linux pessimists... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Nik Picker ( 40521 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:10AM (#6142039) Homepage
      Well we are 3aIT [3ait.co.uk] have for the last four years been moving sites from Novell and Microsoft Servers to OPen Source Applications such as Linux, Samba, Exim, HylaFax etc . Weve moveed appx 500 seats so fa. Weve saved these companies an estimated 100k in license fees and support costs over the last 4 years. We are a 6 Man team , growing in numbers each year, and we have experience and case studies on moving people to Linux...
      • Well we are 3aIT have for the last four years been moving sites from Novell and Microsoft Servers to OPen Source Applications such as Linux, Samba, Exim, HylaFax etc . Weve moveed appx 500 seats so fa. Weve saved these companies an estimated 100k in license fees and support costs over the last 4 years. We are a 6 Man team , growing in numbers each year, and we have experience and case studies on moving people to Linux...

        This sounds like a dream job. I've done this in our organization (not on the desktop

      • Which is why I run Linux full time now, I have no Windows install on this PC. Linux jobs are growing in numbers.
    • ...can anyone tell me when we ever saw a large-scale switch from Linux to Windows NT?

      OK,
      Local authorities in Newham and Nottingham, one year from now ;)

  • Where's Robbin Hood? (Score:5, Funny)

    by moroderzone ( 585335 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @04:45AM (#6141961)
    It should say, "The sheriff of Nottingham is stealing from the rich and giving to the poor."

  • More converters... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by johnraphone ( 624518 )
    I don't know if its the way its being reported or if its actually true but it seems Linux is get more and more chosen over M$.
    • Probly becouse its alot cheaper to liscence and very stable and customisable to ones needs.

    • Re:More converters... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by greppling ( 601175 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @04:53AM (#6141980)
      Yes. But you have to take into account that overall it is still a very small percentage (of desktop computers) that run or will run Linux.

      The highly applauded switch of the city of Munich [zdnet.co.uk] to Linux had an order volume of 30 millions of Euros over a couple of years. That's just about nothing in M$'s budget. (They have fighted so heavily for it just for it's symbolic and psychological value.)

      • Re:More converters... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Vlad_the_Inhaler ( 32958 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:11AM (#6142043)
        I was reading about the switch in Munich yesterday in a German publication (no link, it was paper) based in the City.

        It was a political decision and as such, it carries the implicit rider: 'if this is feasable'. The IT department has started on the detailed planning for the switchover. If they decide that in is not possible or cannot be completed within budget - and this involves retraining costs - then large parts of the administration there will continue using M$ products.
        Reading between the lines of that article, some participants were willing to go for it and some looked to be trying to torpedo the decision.

        The City of Munich has more than one HW/SW platform at the moment, it looks very much as though this situation will continue, with linux and windows both being present.

        The article also considered the figure of â30 Million to be ludicrous - the M$ final offer was less than 25% of that (that was self-defeating, it demonstrated their profit-margins) and SuSE's offer (allegedly â34 Million) was also much lower.

        The city is also currently migrating to SAP (no idea what from) which is taking up a lot of time/money, they were considering hiring students from the local University to help with the work.

    • Re:More converters... (Score:3, Informative)

      by PPGMD ( 679725 )
      Personally I would believe that they are thinking about it, as with most companies you have to consider all the options. A lot of small business get lured in with the fact that Linux is free, but they don't think it though and realize that particularly for the end users Windows in the best thing for them. Yes I know some of you hate the evil empire, but the fact remains that no software package is so well supported by consultants, is known by all server administrators, and is easy to use for your end-users
    • "I don't know if its the way its being reported or if its actually true but it seems Linux is get more and more chosen over M$."

      If I installed a copy of Linux at work, it'd make front page news. Do you really want to develop your impressions of the computer world by what's posted on Slashdot?

  • OS is not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cerberusss ( 660701 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @04:51AM (#6141976) Journal
    I don't think the OS is any problem, I think the software is. If they want to stay on the open source path, they're going to have to use StarOffice or OpenOffice.

    While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice). And you NEED that import, because otherwise you can't exchange documents outside of your department.

    They could also use the excellent CodeWeavers' CrossOver Office [codeweavers.com] but then they'll probably pay more $$$ for the MS Office licenses than when they make a OS+Office deal with the MS sales reps.

    Either way, they'll have to solve a problem, now or in the future. Then again, Windows brings its own host of problems.

    • Re:OS is not the problem (Score:4, Insightful)

      by HugoQuixote ( 32615 ) <astromoose.gmail@com> on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:01AM (#6142016) Homepage Journal
      The Council I work for maintains thousands of documents for the various departments (Housing, Planning, Member Svcs, Legal, Audit, Finance, Council Tax, Environmental Health, Leisure & Tourism), and it's not a huge area to govern. Moving from Office 97 to Office XP (Not to mention migrating to a Citrix environment) caused enough problems with formats, etc.

      I'd hate to work in the Support department of either of these much larger Councils, if they choose to go ahead with these desktop changes. The amount of documentation, archived information, templates and standards in place to update would be horrendous!
      • Moving from Office 97 to Office XP (Not to mention migrating to a Citrix environment) caused enough problems with formats, etc.
        Have you used Star/OpenOffice? In your opinion, could migrating to those be worse or better than from 97 to XP?

        And just being curious: does MS provide tools to migrate from 97 to XP?

        • I have. Sorry, OO 1.03 spreadsheet doesn't cut it. At least my charts still work in XP, whereas they fall over in OO. Same with VBA, although I would agree that there are bizarro-world re-writes necessary for some macros (not mine, so far).

          I really really want OO to work, but so far there is no way I can afford to swap over from Excel. I recently tried to set up a new multi-sheet ss and used OO for it from scratch. After two hours of head scratching at one point (associated with references to cells on othe

      • Re:OS is not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)

        by NoOneInParticular ( 221808 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @07:42AM (#6142259)
        It might be horrendous work to update all standards and templates and such, but it is inevitable that this will happen at some point in the (near) future. The battle that is fought within the EU at the moment is not about OS (operating systems) nor about OS (open source), not even about OS (office suites), but about OS (open standards).

        The situation you sketch above with migration problems for ms-office, is very scary for a government that is supposed to have some openness and accountibility. Currently nearly all governements in the western world have 'standardized' on some microsoft format, but none of these governments can actually guarentee that these documents will be available for reading in 10 years time, simply because Microsoft does not give any such guarantees. In fact, the situation you sketch with public data that is only accessible through the software made by a single company should be made illegal.

        People are starting to realize the danger of this situation, that all these nice documents and templates can become unreadable simply because a commercial company decides that it is not in their interest to be compatible with their older formats. Other issues in government are proprietary database formats. In many places it is such that the data of general practitioners cannot be read in the hospital's system and vice-versa. At this point to collect a person's medical dossier, the only way is to print out everything that is known and collect it through regular mail. This simply costs lives, as ambulance personal has no way of knowing that the person who just broke a leg is on a particular type of medication that cannot be combined with particular pain-killers.

        The only way out of this mess is the use of Open Standards, which is a much less controversial issue than the use of Open Source. It seems that the awareness of this issue is rising, even though many people will not let go of MS-Office willingly. At some point (which I think is not far off), it will become illigal for a governmental body to standardize on MS formats, unless MS will create an open standard of it. When this situation arises, MS will probably comply, but this does mean that suddenly the playing field is leveled, as everyone has access to the specs and can write their implementations/frontends.

        However, although this (political) struggle for Open Standards is fought for a large part by the Open Source community, it is actually hampered by the community as well. Unlike Open Standards, which is non-controversial, Open Source is (This is mainly caused by economic arguments: governements want to endorse a local software industry, and open source is not much of an industry). By pushing both Open Standards and Open Source, the non-controversial point (Open Standards) is obscured by the controversial one (Open Source). It is easy to convince even the most business-friendly official that Open Standards are mandatory for a governmental body, but much more difficult to do the same for non-corporate backed software.

        Ironically, if Open Standards are compulsory in government, this will be a big boost for Open Source, as then it is no longer neccessary to reverse engineer formats, and software can be evaluated on their merits (compliance to standards, functionality, price, etc.)

        Thus in my opinion, by wanting to have both issues resolved at the same time, the Open Source lobby hampers its own goals. To get back on topic, although it is great that some council in the UK is starting to use open source, the issues that are raised in this discussion seems to center on the possibility of loading in proprietary formats of Star/Open Office. The important question that I miss being asked here is: On what formats does this Council standardize now?, and how are they planning to exchange information with other governmental bodies?

        I'll finish this rant with a plea to the Open Source community as a whole: when dealing with governments, keep pushing Open Standards, and lobby for official stand

        • Unlike Open Standards, which is non-controversial, Open Source is (This is mainly caused by economic arguments: governements want to endorse a local software industry, and open source is not much of an industry).

          Ummm, I think the President (or was it Prime Minister) of India would disagree with you there, and in fact would say the exact opposite. He said recently that India should embrace open source to support its local IT industry, with the implication to stop sending so much money abroad to Microsoft!

    • Re:OS is not the problem (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kien ( 571074 ) <kien@memberELIOT.fsf.org minus poet> on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:36AM (#6142094) Journal
      While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice). And you NEED that import, because otherwise you can't exchange documents outside of your department.

      I keep hearing this criticism of Open/StarOffice, that it does ok with Word docs but doesn't work with most of the other MS Office file formats. I got curious about this so I've been forwarding various Word docs, Excel spreadsheets, and PowerPoint presentations to my home email address from work just to test opening up files with OpenOffice. (If you're reading this, Boss, don't worry I delete everything right after the test!)

      While there are some very minor little anomalies that I've noticed, I've been able to read and manipulate the data for every file that I've opened (and I've opened them all right from the email that they were attached to). So I'm wondering if my lack of problems is isolated to Red Hat 9.0 being my distro or if it's something else? Just last night, I opened up two PowerPoint presentations (the second even had sound transitional effects that played) with absolutely no problem. I don't mean to suggest that anyone reporting problems is spreading FUD; I'm just curious as to why I haven't experienced those problems.

      --K.
      • Try making a formula in OO.o then try to open it in msword. There is nothing where the formula was. Pretty anoying as it means that i can't work on my math assignments at school. But apart from that i'm on you side. I find that the the conversion works pretty good too.

        /Esben

      • OpenOffice and MS (Score:4, Informative)

        by Lord Prox ( 521892 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @07:01AM (#6142198) Homepage
        I have only had 1 major glitch in a PowerPoint file being read in OpenOffice 1.0.1. All other files I have read in OpenOffice made from MS Office (mostly .DOC files but excel too) have rendered to such a degree that I could not see any difference. Not to say that there wasn't an error, I just could not see it, which ought to be good enough.
        All of these have been the Win32 build on Win2k sp3
        The error that I did see was in 1.0.1 I think but after that in 1.0.2 and 1.0.3 everything is working great. In my experence

        Disclaimer: your milage my vary, see store manager for details, batteries not included, some assembly required, not for small children or big babies, offer not valid where prohibited, MS zelots need not apply

      • Macros (Score:5, Informative)

        by mgkimsal2 ( 200677 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @08:34AM (#6142347) Homepage
        I asked my dad to try using OO instead of MSOffice for a day at work to see how well he could transition. Couldn't use it for more than 10 minutes because all the Excel files they have had specific macros to kick off printing and do weird formatting and calculations. OO wasn't able to deal with them. Sure, you could try to rewrite them, but why do that? They're already working in MSOffice. If/when Excel can import and use those, he'd switch.
      • First time I tried to use OpenOffice spreadsheets, it failed me - I was sent a sheet with embedded radio buttons (quite why it had these, I don't know). Anyway, they didn't appear. Back to Windows for me :(
      • It is pretty good. I've found that old Word documents that I wrote probably using Office 95 actually render better in OOo than in Office 2000.

        On the down side, I just recently needed to open a 44Mb PowerPoint presentation - it contained nothing fancy, just a lot of slides with hi-res images. OOo takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r to open the document and requires approx. 512Mb memory to do it! When you re-save in the native format it manages things better though.

        Aside from that, I've found odd things like date/time ce
    • While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice). And you NEED that import, because otherwise you can't exchange documents outside of your department.

      I'm guessing you are American, or at least have never dealt with British councils. The inability to talk to other departments would be considered a benefit. Remember, whilst it is usually permitted to provide a good service, if anyone in authority finds out then your
    • >While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice).

      Is this true or is the problem that the .doc format is not fully documented? My understanding is that while MS holds to cards in regard to the .doc format no one, regardless of much effort they put in, can make a .doc reader/writer as well as MS.

      Any clarification of the above would be apperciated.
    • Perhaps StarOffice is the right answer to the wrong question. Most of the functions for which we use a computer are very basic - text entry, messaging, numerical spreadsheets. MSOffice has built critical mass because it has all the functions that you might ever need, even if you use them only once every six months.

      If you are a large employer, then it's probably in your interest to reduce the number of functions in the software that you give to your workers. If they need a car, you don't give them a Ferr
    • 1) You can insisit that people send you stuff in a plain text or open standard format. Word can make .rtf files just fine.

      2) You don't want people sending you Macros anyway (virus risk!) so it's no bad thing to be incompatible with the rest of the world in that case. Everything else IME has been faultless with OpenOffice.

      3) OO 1.1 includes Office Macro support.

      So stop spreading FUD > Linux is perfectly adequate WRT documents - certainly for a saving of >> £400 / desk.
    • While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice). And you NEED that import, because otherwise you can't exchange documents outside of your department.

      Would such a limitation not be a good thing? I'm sick of getting Word attachments - then having to mail/phone the sender explaining why I can't read the damn thing. Perhaps if users hit the same snag they'll start to realise plain text is the best way.

    • Re:OS is not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)

      by RoLi ( 141856 )
      Given how many problems I had with .doc in the past (different versions of Word and/or different printer drivers means different output and possibly corruption) going to OpenOffice doesn't make things any worse. (Once OpenOffice was the only possibility to open a .doc file that would crash MS Office...)

      OpenOffice is great because they don't want to force you to upgrade all the time by breaking the format.

  • I demand to know (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @04:53AM (#6141982)
    What has happened to Linux zealotry on /. The actual article title clearly and totally ignores the fact these councils are only doing feasability studies, not actually switching.

    UK councils dump Windows for Linux
    Most bizaarly then the /. header actually notes this fact that these councils may switch to Linux. What happed to the good old days when /. would report them as having already switched with lots of interesting anecdotes about how shit Windows is and how brilliant Linux is.

    I just dont know what the world is coming to
    • The short answer...

      We all know Linux is so good that we don't have to trump it up. it's such common knowledge we can just go with the facts.

      Y'know, it can do an infinite loop in 3 seconds.

      when WAS the last time Linux was dumped for Windows?

    • Different spin (Score:5, Interesting)

      by LinuxGeek ( 6139 ) <djand.ncNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:15AM (#6142056)
      First, yes the story says they are considering the switch, second, the header dosen't contain the word "may".

      I wonder about pressure that local governments can apply externally on businesses. People resist moving from Windows and MS Office saying it will be too hard to convert to something else because file formats are a problem. Yet San Francisco can mandate that any company that deals with the city must have gay friendly policies in place across the entire corporation at the local, state and country levels.

      Why can't this same pressure be used to ensure that documents sent to local governments must be readable by freely available packages like Openoffice.org or the companies can not continue doing government business? Make it a requirement and watch the barriers to free and opensource software drop. Then if a local government is having a financial crunch, let them convert older systems to linux/freebsd/whatever without worrying that common document formats can't be read. This way governments could cut computing costs and hire another teacher or policeman, heck maybe even fund youth baseball for a season ( not cheap).
    • Remember, Slashdot is a business. More site traffic means more $$$.
      So which headline will generate more site traffic:
      UK councils dump Windows for Linux
      or
      UK council doing feasibility studies on switching from Windows to Linux

  • Ooooh... (Score:2, Troll)

    by HugoQuixote ( 32615 )
    This can only be a good thing for suppliers of certain local government based software (SX3, Ocella) - many of their products used to run on UNIX alone, and even now some of them run emulated under W2K.

    The council I work for runs iWorld, an SX3 product - unfortunately our UNIX admin is a bit of a fool and didn't notice when the project suggested running the system emulated. If he'd have been paying attention, we might have got some Linux boxen in!
  • When I hear these stories, I'm always surprised how many city workers there are who have computers. My conception of city administration is that there must be many who don't work at desks.

  • And whose behind it ? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Nik Picker ( 40521 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @04:58AM (#6142002) Homepage
    Eddie Bleasedale, of Netproject [netproject.co.uk] has been one of the UKs most prolific advocates of the Open Source movement. Hes been running seminars, Discussions and meetings with a large variety of "movers and shaker" within the UK for several Years now. This is the not the first large scale project in the UK but it is certainly the most important. The Architecture employed to move everyone to the Linux Desktop , which I have seen , is certainly the most influential and consistent to date. We at 3aIT [3ait.co.uk] wish Eddie and his team all the best in this project and the future.

    Though I am wondering when the UK Magazines are going to start including Eddies Name for Linux Advocacy nominations.

    And if youve ever tried getting your boss to understand the benefits of Open Source in business then look out for Netprojects Day Conferences ( next on is 10th June 2003, London ) where Netprojects put together a excellent series of dicsussions and topics detailing issues and concerns over the Linux Answer.

  • Local Councils (Score:3, Informative)

    by PirateDave -) ( 679653 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:05AM (#6142027)
    Mansfield LUG (In nottinghamshire) currently has a discussion going on this. On the members works at the Mansfield council and has been pushing Linux for years. The only realy barrier is that the guy in charge of IT is anti-linux - but he's Unix programmer. Another member works for another local council. He has managed to get linux onto their servers by way of stealth. Their mail servers were orignially just a 'test' to see if linux would be able to cope. Since then they've ditched their previous server OSes and have replaced them with Linux. They've been trying to get Linux on as the desktops too. No success with 'those with the say' there at all. This decision by the Nottingham council may be more pursuasive.
    • I did a stint in public relations at this same council and their computers had Office 97. I was also worried to overhear some people talking about the intranet and how it was a truly remarkable, modern spinoff from the internet. I bought my cappuchino muffin and left.

  • Hmmm... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by nepheles ( 642829 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:10AM (#6142038) Homepage

    Linux is ideal for places like Council Offices -- little complex software beyond Word-processors or Spreadsheets is required, meaning any OS can conceivably be used. What sets apart one from another is the cost, and ease of maintenance/deployment. And, here, it is obvious that Linux wins.

    Having said that, this doesn't do much for Linux in the home, or for those who use PCs for anything more complex.

    • Re:Hmmm... (Score:2, Informative)

      by HugoQuixote ( 32615 )
      I can only say this:

      You'd be very, very surprised. Off the top off my head, my IT Dept support and maintain around 22 applications other than Office apps. Not including the fact that we run almost all these over Citrix, and have to look after about 14 Oracle 8-9i Databases too.

      We're a busy bunch.

  • ok (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:13AM (#6142049)
    So we see there stories all the time on Slashdot.

    But has any government ever ACTUALLY DONE IT?

    Ever government in the world has "considered" mandating and using open source for everything (usually around the time a MS contract comes up for renegotiation/renewal).

    Isn't this just the usual Linux as a bargaining chip thing all corporations and governments do right before they sign their latest MS contract to try and get MS to sweeten the deal?

    I mean has any government actually done the switch? ever?

    • Re:ok (Score:4, Interesting)

      by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @07:47AM (#6142270) Journal
      Down in florida a couple of years, a city converted. Jefferson county, CO runs Linux on desktop. Apparently, they did it the intellegent way some time ago. They let the user decide, by giving them choice. runninng NT/2000 with the current MS office OR upgrading their hardware and using Linux of which these were about the same costs. I understand that first year the offer was taken up by a small percentage, but the next year quite a few ppl took it up as the MS ppl were getting starved on CPU cycles. Apparently, the top hardware was 586's with 64 and 128 M rams. Hard to get things done when MS keeps demanding more, but the group is not going too fork out the increase in hardware and support costs.
    • Ever government in the world has "considered" mandating and using open source for everything (usually around the time a MS contract comes up for renegotiation/renewal).

      Amen to that. I now propose that no new story about a "switch" be posted till the switch is in implementation stage. Or at least approved and budgeted. Microsoft let the cat out of the bag by saying that if you menace them with Linux they will giver you their software for free. So expect a rising volume of incidents such as this while ever

      • Agreed (Score:4, Insightful)

        by dmaxwell ( 43234 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @12:08PM (#6143369)
        Microsoft let the cat out of the bag by saying that if you menace them with Linux they will giver you their software for free. So expect a rising volume of incidents such as this while everybody negotiates them dry.

        That's ultimately self-defeating. The more Linux is given away the better Linux does. Linux gains more mindshare, developers, and generates opportunities for small businesses as it propagates. This is not true of MS. When MS gives away licenses to maintain marketshare, it is at the expense of revenue. Sure they can threaten to take away the crackpipe if they aren't paid down the road but then the "feasibility studies" start up again. Mind and marketshare doesn't do them much good if it isn't making them money.

        This feasibility study is not news. When Ballmer flies out to Britain with a briefcase full of free/deeply-discounted licenses, that will be news. It isn't a "loss" for Linux either. To MS, it'll be the equivalent of a played out one-crop field. Sure, nobody else will grow anything but they won't either.

        MS faces a mature market for their only two moneymakers (Windows/Office). Palladium-style lockin strategies won't save them either. At best, they can hold the line a little while longer. They need new products and new business model that doesn't involve making legions of potential users and developers highly pissed at them.

    • Re:ok (Score:2, Insightful)

      by oojah ( 113006 )
      Maybe it is a bargaining chip, but in the case of Nottingham council, they have already made a foray into Linux by changing their mail system from a proprietry system to Linux (it's mostly a webmail type interface so the end users don't see Linux as such). I would guess that it is partially off the back of the large success they had with the mail migration that the change to Linux on the desktop is being considered - certainly it will be a large feather in the cap for Linux.

      Richard Heggs, the Nottingham

      • Re:ok (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Heggsy ( 55536 )
        I'm glad you liked the talk. Personally, I thought it was far too much waffle. :)

        It's true that the success of our email system has increased the value of Linux in the eyes of TPTB, but the fact remains that we are only *considering* Linux as a possibility. Just as we are considering Windows, Netware and various proprietary versions of Unix.
  • That screeching sound is the sound of the Microsoft FUD machine, lobbying machinery, and PR machinery kicking into high gear. Expect another concerted effort by Microsoft trying to discredit Linux, effectively bribe government officials, and "give away" Windows for free.

  • Document interchangeability (Score:4, Interesting)

    by panurge ( 573432 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:20AM (#6142066)
    The argument that SO/OO doesn't have the ability to convert all MSOffice documents seamlessly is possibly not that valid. Local government generally is not pushing the envelope in IT usage, partly due to budgetary constraints and partly due to the kind of people it employs (and no, this is not a criticism.) In fact, the best way to control costs and improve productivity is to discourage users from producing over-complex documents, and to ensure that applications are not used improperly (e.g. managers designing hugely complex spreadsheets which are impossible to synchronise to live data, rather than having a skilled database engineer produce a properly scoped report.)
    I hope the consultants are working on these lines rather than just doing the "can we do everything we do not with a different technology".

    The biggest problem is likely to be user retraining - and this is where educational policy needs to be looked at. Schools don't teach Gallimard French or General Motors physics. We expect school subjects to be vendor-neutral. Yet IT is often far from it. Hardware has to be made by somebody, but surely education software should be fully standards compliant and vendor neutral. Potentially, this should level the playing field for students, employers and vendors, and allow companies and local authorities planning long term strategy to make market-independent assessments of needs. I believe that UK local authorities share some responsibility for education with the central government. If so, that's an area of policy they might want to influence.

    • (This comment applies only to the initial remarks about over-complex documents. The rest of panurge's posting is extraodinarily insightful, and I encourage readers to read it a second time, and to comment here.)

      I am a university professor, and I've tried OO.o many times, to see if it's ready for prime time. I have found that OO.o falls a bit short even on simple documents. I've been using OO.o for quite a while, and although its problems are fading, they aren't gone. Most recently, I found that font w

  • from the article:

    If this is seen to work in Newham, it has the potential to be a significant project, changing the perceptions of other councils," said Tim Dawes, director of local government technology consultants Nineveh.

  • Any connection to the police force scheme? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BenjyD ( 316700 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:48AM (#6142108)
    I know UK Police forces (West Yorks initially) were looking at a thin client Linux desktop deployment, which it was claimed could lead to greater Linux take-up in the public sector - story [theregister.co.uk]. Any connection I wonder? My favourite quote - "Linux is Unix done properly.".

  • Congratulations, Open Source! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MacDaffy ( 28231 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @05:55AM (#6142117)
    The story doesn't say that the final decisions have been made. A feasibility study is being mounted to replace Windows systems by the end of the year. Microsoft will be pulling out all the stops against this. A May 14th Slashdot discussion on the topic quotes Orlando Ayala, head of sales at Microsoft, as saying: "Under NO circumstances lose against Linux." They're going to practically give Windows away to avoid these setbacks. Even if they do prevail, though, the die is cast against Redmond.

    I think that Microsoft has "jumped the shark."

    Longhorn is two years away. Palladium-Next Generation Computing is alarming large segments of the IT community. Microsoft's latest licensing scheme antagonized its business customers. It is a convicted monopolist; its options against future challenges aren't what they were before that conviction and they face antitrust action in Europe and elsewhere. Viruses and worms spread by and through Windows IIS, Hotmail, Outlook, Outlook Express and Internet Explorer create weekly embarrassments in the face of Bill Gates's call for improved security. The strategy to impose a Microsoft-powered Digital Rights Management regime on users has been hurt badly by Apple's iTunes Music store. Economic conditions have slowed the adoption of Windows XP because new machines aren't being bought at rates anticipated before the technology industry nosedive. Millions of Windows 98, ME, and 2000 customers see no need (and have little incentive) to upgrade.

    And now, the growth of Open Source has crippled Microsoft's ability to "embrace and extend" critical standards. The first big mistake in that battle is their recent announcement that there will be no more standalone versions of Internet Explorer. Open Source alternatives will be able to develop and implement improvements in browser technology at a much more nimble rate than will Microsoft while maintaining compatibility with current standards. New versions of IE that cripple functionality will drive customers toward alternatives rather than toward IE (and the requisite release of Windows that delivers it).

    Microsoft's stated goal of "Windows on every desktop" is no longer practical. Steve Ballmer's recent memo to the troops admits as much. I've been in the computer industry for over twenty years now and I assure you that that is a HUGE victory, but the advantage has to be pressed now or Microsoft will catch up like it has caught up so many times before. Open Source has to continue its emphasis on better, faster, cheaper, safer, and more reliable.

    But for now? Bravo!

  • Merrill Lynch: Linux saves money (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 08, 2003 @06:07AM (#6142134)
    Merrill Lynch [merrilllynch.com] research shows that deploying Linux internally that could save the company millions of dollars [com.com], an executive at the investment banker said.

    During a presentation Friday at the Enterprise Linux Forum, Mark Snodgrass, vice president of Merrill Lynch's in-house technology provider, the Global Technology & Services group, said that the company has found that re-architecting its information infrastructure using Linux can reduce administration costs dramatically.

    In fact, Snodgrass found that, while the software licensing costs of Windows was higher than Linux, the highest cost was in managing traditional Windows infrastructure.

    "It's the people that cost the most," he said.

    Merrill Lynch's new plans for its information infrastructure call for running much of its Linux applications not on their own physical machines but in virtual machines running on high-end servers. Such a scheme simplifies management and allows for rapid deployment of new Linux "servers" by activating a copy of a stored pre-configured image in as little as 2 minutes 14 seconds.

    "We are not trying to promote Linux," Snodgrass said. "We are just trying to reduce the cost of ownership."

    Using such virtual Linux servers to store files could cut costs dramatically, he said. Keeping their file systems on Windows servers would have cost the company $600,000 in hardware and five times that to pay for the personnel to manage the servers.

    "We know that Linux is not for everything," he said. "But there are not many applications that require more than Linux can give us."

    Snodgrass's group proposed replacing the company's Microsoft Exchange servers with a Linux-based solution that would have all the same collaboration features and have a cost savings of 70 percent to 80 percent. However, for other reasons that Snodgrass wouldn't discuss, the company's executives decided to stick with Exchange but outsource the management of the groupware to save money.

    Not everyone agrees that Linux saves money, however. Last year, market researcher IDC released a report, heralded by Microsoft, that indicated that the five-year cost of ownership for four out of five applications would be lower if Microsoft software was used. The sole Linux winner was Web server software, according to the report. (and for the slashdotters/windows users hanging on this bit of hope, note that this study was decimated when it was examined and certain facts, like license renewals being omitted, the timeline favoring unrealistic (over 5 years for the same release) use of windows, no hardware upgrades for newer versions of windows, no accounting for the fact that linux/unix admins can run more systems per admin, no patching/crashing problems with windows, downtime costs, and more).

    Snodgrass said he wasn't familiar with the study, but his own data indicated that running virtual Linux servers saves a lot of money compared with running those same services under Windows.

    "We've done our numbers, and we are a bank, so we know our numbers," he said.

    Other companies apparently have crunched the numbers and come to the same conclusion.

    Telecommunications provider Verizon disclosed that it saved nearly $6 million in equipment costs by moving its programmers to Linux from proprietary-Unix and Windows workstations. In October 2001, Amazon.com revealed that it had replaced Web application servers running on a proprietary-Unix platform with Linux, saving millions of dollars.

    Snodgrass said the next target for deploying Linux could be on the desktop. The company plans to do a pilot project that will allow thin clients--computers with minimal hardware requirements--to be used as workstations. The applications would actually run on Linux and Windows terminal servers. To the user, the result would be the same, but to the company's

  • Caution ... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by danielrm26 ( 567852 ) *
    I hope the people making these sorts of decisions in developing countries realize that there are hidden costs involved in going to Linux. In India, for example, I am sure there are oodles of MCSEs that can click their way to a semi-functional network, but are there enough people familar with *nix to handle a major shift to Linux? I think not.

    Not that this is a permanent roadblock, but it's something they need to be aware of. They have to realize that if something goes bad and they aren't with someone li

  • Push it as "made in ____" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by thogard ( 43403 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @06:30AM (#6142169) Homepage
    Linux is made in most parts of the world. Many local goverments must consider locally made products before buying from outside of the county, state, country etc.

    Anyone one want to dig up a list of countries where work on linux has been done and then find out how many of them have offical logos (like this [abnormal.com] or this [abnormal.com]) and then find out what rules apply and come up with a nice mixed image?
    • If you consider that we're talking about a full distribution of GNU/Linux with KDE, GNOME, GNU-tools etc. and not just the kernel, finding a list like this is near impossible.

      If you want to check if a given country has had people involved, searching through for instance KDE and GNOME-cvs for xxxx@xxx.yy where yy is a given country code could be an indication.

      I don't think there is many countries that are NOT involved, and you only have to start a project in your home country to package local stuff with a

  • Windows isn't ready for the desktop! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 08, 2003 @06:47AM (#6142182)
    I noticed clueless people spreading FUD like "Linux is not ready for the desktop" as if they get paid for doing it.

    If Linux would be ready for the desktop in the meaning like windows is ready for desktop then we would have to remove virtual desktops, changing of resolution with hotkeys, the shell, the flexible window manager concept... everything..

    Maybe it's more like that Linux has a different (better) desktop than windows and will (hopefully) never gain that state of "readyness for the desktop" that windows has achived and which these people are looking for.

  • local LUG groups to help out (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sublime99 ( 653101 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @06:56AM (#6142189)
    With this move from a propiertary software vendor to an Open Source vendor is a great move, and I hope they go through with it. Maybe with some help of the local LUG maybe they can cordinate something with the users to help them make the transistion easier? Hav the groups have a special day that can be posted through out the company for employees to goto to learn more things, or even have the people come in and help people in the spare time? or even get paid? Nothing wrong with taking the Open Source mentality of taking a large group of people and making great products.
  • The lesson is that the world starves for a cheap and robust alternative to Microsoft Windows.

    There are two alternatives:

    1) Linux. If the usability problems are solved, it may have a chance.

    2) OS X. Apple does not understand that they can take big revenge on Microsoft by releasing OS X for 80x86.

    Especially in the short-term future that Microsoft will switch to subscription-based computing, more and more will seek solutions outside of Microsoft.
  • These things still demand NT equivalence on the desktop to run. Most still require some server component to be on an NT equivalent server. This means MS in both cases.

    In a complete turnaround, most apps in this area are of course becoming browser-based on the client side ... meaning that MS Servers will interact with linux diskless workstations in the cash-strapped local government world.
  • In the UK the obsession with the "dynamism" of American capitalism continues largely unabated (often with government encouragement). Bill Gates is of course the principal exemplar of that dynamism (ie he is very, very rich) and is still feted as some sort of hero over here.

    The argument that MS is an anti-competitive monopolist just hasn't broken through.

  • It happens so often... (Score:5, Funny)

    by arcanumas ( 646807 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @07:26AM (#6142237) Homepage
    Cities switching to Linux happens so often that it is going to be available as an option in Sim City 5.

  • Let's hope that they get this right! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 08, 2003 @07:51AM (#6142274)
    I have been seeing more and more large scale "trial" runs for linux in corporate and government settings. I sincerely hope (as I cannot assume) that they are putting the necessary planning and talent behind these transitions. For something of this scale, you cannot simply re-train your current IT staff (once an MCSE, always an MCSE). It requires significant restaffing, rearchitecting, and user re-training.

    Anyone who has done a platform migration in an enterprise knows that this is an extremely difficult undertaking. I can't even imagine having to do this for 10,000 systems! I really hope that the community reaches out to support these large trials, and that they are ultimately successful. We all know that linux "can" be successful in this setting. Here's to hoping they get it right.

    Thank you for your time,
    Frank Russo
  • I am part if IT-Support/Admin for an international company (in eleven countries). So far I haven't seen a convincing set of Linux tools to migrate the MS-Chain of Command (Exchange, Office and Explorer). So far there is no Linux package out there that is equal to Office+Exchange combo - or is there?! Another problem is, that many custom (web) applications rely on IE (they won't work with any other browser). Plus we are a travel company that relies on many specialized tools that are simply not avail unde

  • 20% Council Tax Rises (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Considering my council tax has risen 20% in a single year, compounded on last years 12% and similar amounts from previous years, you can gather that local authorities in the UK are possibly the most wasteful and ineffcient in the Western world, anything that will save costs is great, however I doubt I'll see the benefit, the money saved with just be spent on other follies.

    In fact my local council has a very similar archicture to Windows... resource hungry, prone to errors, file corruption, constantly crash

  • I've been reading the posts to this story, and I can see that many people don't understand the underlying issues.

    Here is a fact that is symbolic of why organizations switch to Linux: Microsoft Windows XP cannot copy all of its own files! Microsoft decided to treat all of its customers as though they were criminals just because some were making illegal copies. So, Microsoft crippled the Windows XP file system to prevent people from cloning their copies of Windows. This vastly increases the problems in u
  • Nottingham has a huge university (universities?)... there are tons of students and graduates (presumably), so it will be easier to find smart kids to run Linux.

    Searching for employees (and replacements) is a big concern for management who entertain the idea of Linux: sure, Microsoft is expensive, proprietary, arrogant and unstable... but MSCE folks are much more common than knowledgable UNIX people.

    Many small companies just want day-to-day IT operations like rebooting and virus removal... it is difficult

  • Exchange/Outlook are going to be the difficult bit (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 08, 2003 @12:15PM (#6143445)
    Most of the replies have focussed on Word/OpenOffice issues. As I see it this is the easy part, the difficult/interesting bit is converting the groupware: calendering mainly.

    Why is this a problem ?
    They will be looking at a smooth transition, not a big bang, some people may continue with Windows boxes for a long time. These and those moved to Linux are still going to want to arrange meetings/... with each other. The trouble is that the MAPI protocol used in not known and there are no open source clients/servers.

    • To do this the Linux groupware clients need to talk to Exchange. The only way that I know of doing this is with Ximian [ximian.com] connector: which is proprietary and costs $1,449 for a 25 pack.
    • Later on when the exchange servers are replaced, the remaining windows clients will need to talk to the replacement, the only way of doing this is with bynari [bynari.net] which is a proprietary product.

    We need to reverse engineer the current M$ MAPI protocols so that open source clients/servers can be written. The key to the success of this project is going to be seamless continuity of end user work while desktop and server machines are migrated one by one.

    Does anyone know of tools other than ximian connector and bynari ?

    OpenOffice does the .doc, .xls & .ppt well enough. Evolution/kmail does the email well enough (smtp). ``Well enough'' means can interoperate in terms of protocol and file/wire formats.

  • Letter i just wrote (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fuzzbrain ( 239898 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @12:40PM (#6143619)
    I just wrote a letter to my local council (which was not mentioned in the article) encouraging them
    to follow Newham's lead. I didn't write it very well, but if anyone wants to copy bits of it to send to their council...

    Dear Councillors,

    A draw your attention to the following article:
    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t272-s2 135726,00. html

    In it, it is mentioned that "Newham in London and Nottingham City Council, are
    examining the feasibility of shifting all their 11,500 staff desktop
    computers from Windows to Linux with open source desktop applications by the
    end of the year". It is also mentioned that such a move is being considered
    by Barking and Dagenham, Hackney, Havering, Redbridge, Thanet, Tower Hamlets
    and Waltham Forest.

    I was wondering whether Greenwich Council might also consider such a move. As
    a resident of Greenwich I think it would be a good idea for the following
    reasons:

    -Studies have show that significant cost savings can be achieved by switching
    to Linux. http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1014287.html?tag=f d_top

    -I do not believe it is right that some of the money I pay in council tax
    should find it's way to Microsoft, a convicted monopolist.

    -I believe that all government documents should be stored in an open format.
    Word documents are not open.

    Yours sincerely,

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