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Who created the Warforged? 83

Posted by Hemos
d.3.l.t.r.3.3 writes "James Jones (Turbine), declared on an interview at MMORPG.COM that D&D Online and Turbine basically built the world of Eberron introducing and inventing many elements that, in reality, were already present in the Campaign Settings since early design, like the Warforged race. Since MMORPG dodged the bullet when a well informed Eberron fan pointed out the glaring errors, I asked Keith Baker (Eberron Game Designer) to clarify the matter. He promptly gave his own opinion, confirming that Warforged were his own original creation and that the words of James Jones were a poor choice. He also doctored the Turbine staff about what a Campaign Setting really is. The inevitable conclusion of the article is: how much can online gaming sites be trusted, when they are protecting their own sponsor's image?"
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Who created the Warforged? More

Who created the Warforged?

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  • Editors (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 28, 2006 @07:47AM (#15992954)
    Do your job and clean up that summary. It's atrocious.

  • Grammer/Information? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have to say I can't understand this post at all. I play Eberon/DnD and i still cant work it out!

  • This is painful to read (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Goaway ( 82658 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @07:56AM (#15992979) Homepage
    Besides the awkward and nearly unreadable sentence structures in the article, 'dodged the bullet', 'doctored' and 'inevitable conclusion' do not mean what the submitter seems to think they mean.

    If the editors won't actually edit articles (to keep Slashdot "more real", apparently), how about just not posting articles that are incomprehensible gibberish?

    • Oh good, I'm not the only one who has trouble with this summary. Really, about all I can make out is that someone is PO'd about someone else stealing some other person's idea, and that it all relates to D&D. Next you'll be trying to tell me that Gary Gygax didn't invent the hobbits^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hhalflings or something.

    • If the editors won't actually edit articles (to keep Slashdot "more real", apparently), how about just not posting articles that are incomprehensible gibberish?

      You must be new here...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by elrous0 ( 869638 ) *
      In all fairness, many of the posters and commenters on /. are not native English speakers. As long as they can get their points across, I'm pretty forgiving. Though you are right in that /. editors should probably consider actually EDITING the submissions before they go live (esp on the front page).

      -Eric

      • Bull shit. I am not a native English speaker. I have never been to a country where people speak English natively, nor a region where it is a common second language.

        I speak the language fluently. I don't know all appropriate idioms for every situation, but I have a pretty good idea of when I am using one, and care enough about what I write to look up words and phrases so I don't look like a complete idiot (like the use of the word 'idiom' here). If someone else does not take the time to do the same, then why

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Goaway ( 82658 )
        I posted the original complaint, and I am not a native speaker. I forgive simplistic language and occassional grammatical mistakes easily, but using idioms you don't understand is nothing but stupidity on the part of the writer.

    • Here's a new version of the summary which I think is easier to read...

      Who created the Warforged?

      This morning my attention was captured by this article on MMORPG. In particular by the fact Turbine said they "built" Eberron and was told that it was recommended by Wizards of the game world, and were included in the MMO was even considered; they've always been part of the clear connections TO the existing world, not as something new. Xen'drik has always INTENTIONALLY been left undeveloped, so each DM can pu

    • Errgh... yeah. Hey! That's not a conclusion at all! It's a question!

    • BabbleFish to the rescue (Score:5, Funny)

      by MarkusQ ( 450076 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @10:05AM (#15993556) Journal

      Besides the awkward and nearly unreadable sentence structures in the article, 'dodged the bullet', 'doctored' and 'inevitable conclusion' do not mean what the submitter seems to think they mean.

      If the editors won't actually edit articles (to keep Slashdot "more real", apparently), how about just not posting articles that are incomprehensible gibberish?

      This is a common problem with text that has been hand translated from another language (in this case, I would suspect either Java or Telugu). I have found that running it through BabbleFish (say, into German and back again) cleans up most the problems. What the article summary was trying to say was:

      "James Jones (turbine), on an interview explains on MMORPG.COM that D&D on-line and turbine invent generally the world of Eberron many elements presenting and established, those, in which reality, already into the campaign attitudes were present since early Design, like the Warforged running. Since MMORPG, which was avoided to the rifle bullet, as a well informed Eberron fan underlined the shining disturbances, asked I Keith baker (Eberron play designer) the affair to explain. It passed immediately its own judgement and confirmed that Warforged were its own original creation and that the words of James Jones were a bad choice. It treated also the turbine staff over, which campaign really adjusts is. The inevitable summary of the article is: how much are trusted to box of on-line play places of assembly, if they protect picture of their own promoter?"

      Hope that clarifies things. Feel free to use this trick on your own whenever you run accross text like this in the future.

      --MarkusQ

  • Why is this even a question? (Score:5, Informative)

    by mollace ( 751119 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @07:56AM (#15992981)
    The Warforged appears as a playable race in the Eberron sourcebook, published by Wizards of the Coast in 2004. I remember reading about the Warforged in promotional materials and on WotC's website before that. There's no need to even bother Keith Baker about this.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dbIII ( 701233 )
      And "Full Metal Alchemist" came before that, and it was unashamedly a dervative product itself. This argument is as ludicrous as that idiot that went to court over the idea of casting Madonna in a remake.

      Fantasy games are so effective because they are based on symbols we already know and are far enough from reality that we can just deal with the symbols.

      • Re: (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        But the point seems to be that Turbine is taking credit for adding something to Eberron that was there from the very beginning before they even got involved.

        Except that, clicking through to the blogpost and reading the quote, it doesn't seem to say that at all - the quote reads:

        "The continent of Xen'drik had yet to have lore fleshed out and Turbine was basically given the ability to build their own world, including a new playable race - the Warforged. Currently, the world that Turbine has built has been in

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by shinma ( 106792 )
          "to build their own world, including a new playable race - the Warforged"

          That implies to me that they "built" the new playable race themselves.
          • I think it's a reasonable way to parse the sentance:
            • "Xen'drik (continent)" > "yet to have lore fleshed out"
            • "Turbine" > "able to built own world (within Xen'drik)"
            • "own world (within Xen'drik)" > "included Warforged"
            • "Warforged" > "new playable race"

            I think the sentance clearly states that Xen'drik was a blank slate given to Turbine, they created their own world within this continent, and that the Warforged were part of that creation.

            Now, I'm hearing this last part is untrue, so we're le

  • OK, I admit it, I stopped playing AD&D back when we still used the 2.0 editions with Unearthed Arcana. Our little group had no time to learn 3, and our DM moved to the middle of nowhere. So who or what are the Warforged? Do the pretty pictures in the article showing some iron golem like being and some mysterious red-eyed creature represent this race? Would an old AD&D fan like myself with only a few hours a week to spare actually like DDO?

    Jonah HEX

    • Dungeon & Dragons Online very brief review (Score:4, Interesting)

      by SmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @11:01AM (#15993862) Journal
      I was in the beta and played it. Now I am not that good a player so it might be me but for the most part it was an extremely simplistic RPG with passable graphics and some astroucious mission design.

      The simple problem? Health. As you no doubt know not all classes are equal in D&D especially at the first few levels. D&D makes up for the weakness of some classes in combat by being by nature a multiplayer game. The warrior, the mage and the healer, one player to take the hits, one player to do the damage and one player to rule^H^H^H^Hheal them all.

      CRPG's typically are one-player affairs, so they have to adjust themselves to allow this single player to survive even if they have choosen a class that isn't survivable. One way is too be liberal with health potions. Just keep chucking them back and hope that eventually your pathetic rogue will actually kill the enemy.

      So what does DDO do? Put all the health potion vendors BEYOND the beginner area. This lead to a lot of players choosing the lesser combat/healing classes getting stuck. If you used the 2/3 potions you got at the start to early you just couldn't survive later dungeons.

      No you couldn't group with a healer or tank either, a D&D MMORPG game with NO early grouping. Says it all really.

      I was in the late beta and for this design decision to be implemented still tells me everytbing about the game I need to know. Neither am I alone. DDO commercial success is severely lacking. There is a reason WoW sells so well. Not because it is so good or so original, in many ways it is just a cheap Everquest 2 clone but with a shit load of style and class added. WoW is if you like an iPod, not a better music player, not a more capable one but one that looks good and just fucking works.

      DDO is not. Play it, but be sure you know you are playing a D&D game designed by people who forbid low levels to group. A MMORPG, with no grouping.

      A MMORPG where I had more cash at level 3 then at level 30 in WoW but nothing to spend it on.

      Oh and the warforged are a created race that is very very ugly so I didn't play one since I only play pretty girls. Basically they are a strong warrior race that is healed by mages instead of priests.

      But no, an old D&D fan probably won't like DDO. It just ain't anything like it. Neverwinter Nights might be more up your ally. D&D Pen&Paper is to me all about the dungeon master who is a human and who can improvise on the spot. No good dungeon master is going to allow the party to be wiped out in the first dungeon or force all the players to play the first few levels all alone.

      A human dungeon master is like a writer, he puts the actors of his play in constant peril but also makes sure the cavalery arrives just in the nick of time. A great dungeon master makes you feel like you escaped by the skin of your nose but not actually get killed. That is the difference between computer and human controlled RPG's. Humans care.

      • So what does DDO do? Put all the health potion vendors BEYOND the beginner area. This lead to a lot of players choosing the lesser combat/healing classes getting stuck. If you used the 2/3 potions you got at the start to early you just couldn't survive later dungeons.

        No you couldn't group with a healer or tank either, a D&D MMORPG game with NO early grouping. Says it all really.

        THere were 3 quests you couldn't group for. One was a learn the interface quest with 3 CR .1 spiders. THe second was a quest

        • Amen. Or is that "astroucious" of me to agree with AuMatar?

          Everything I despise about EQ and WoW is missing in DDO. I don't need to learn to fish, or brew or basket weave. All that inane crap is gone in DDO, it is stripped down to the purity of quests that require varying degrees of communication and teamwork. For the majority of antisocial loner MMO fanboys that must be unbearable. The built in voice chat even gets rid of most of the insipid l33tsp34k, you have to decipher in other games.
          I am a very "astro

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Red Warrior ( 637634 ) *
      The warforged are golems who are A) Intelligent and B) available as a player character race. With some good campaign world backstory. They were built as war machines and ended up with free will. As you would expect, some "built in" AC, don't heal naturally. Must be repaired, etc.

      I also quit playing back in the AD&D days, and have just recently started in a 3.5 campaign. The ruleset and gameplay are much improved, in all aspects, IMO. Much more flexable. And a lot of the "rules just to have rules" have b
      • It's not a matter of "I came up with it first." It's a matter of the Warforged being specifically included in the outline of the campaign setting submitted to the contest that Eberron was born from. They are a specific race included in the campaign setting that was later adapted to DDO. But after reading the original article on MMORPG that this blog post is about, it's basically a case of a single "fan" getting his panties in a twist over a poorly worded sentence at the end of an otherwise uneventful, infor

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Serzen ( 675979 )
      Other people have mentioned what the Warforged are, so I won't touch that. Another responder gave his (presumably) own summary of the game, but I'm going to go ahead and add my own.

      First, if you're an old AD&D guy, the new 3.5 rules may be somewhat rough to get past your craw: No more THAC0, no more race-specific classes, all new classes of spellcasters, bizzare new combat rules. 3rd Edition was built with miniature play in mind, and it really shows in the combat rules.

      If you can get past the rules

    • Warforged:

      A race of sentient golems might be close. Manufactured mobile semi-autonomous weapons for a nasty war, created in massive "Creation Forges" from complex arcane patterns called "Creation Patterns". At some point, they developed full autonomy and sentience (or is that sapience?... ). The war, which raged for a long, long time (tens or hundreds of years?) is now over (2 years ago or so). So we have all these sentient warriors (specialized in some cases as juggernauts, scouts, wizards, etc) of metal a
  • I readily admit that my computer expertise when it comes to games extends about as far as free cell, but in the following sentence, "He also doctored the Turbine staff about what a Campaign Setting really is.", should 'doctored' have been 'tutored', or is this another case of me being hopelessly out of touch with current slang?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by festers ( 106163 )
      Actually, accordning to the most recent slang, I believe the correct translation for that word would be "schooled."
  • ..with World of Warcraft. Apparently the Blood Elves are space pirates who hijacked the Dranei's "dimensional ship." There was so much double-talk going on when they first released the lore. This is just a standard problem that will always pop up when people try to build on other people's stories.
    • Fry: Space pirates?
      Leela: You know, like pirates... but in space!

      • Fry, lamenting that his brother, 1000 years before, was the first man on Mars: I should have been the first man on Mars! Now I'll never get there.

        Leela: You went there this morning. For donuts.

  • College interns for teh win! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by RingDev ( 879105 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @08:15AM (#15993035) Homepage Journal
    I'm sure there are plenty of would be professional editors out there who would love to get some intern time with /. as an editor. Think about it, you can pay them crap, but they get work experience, and /.ers don't have to spam every post with complaints about the lack of editing.

    -Rick

    PS: Hiring an editor, even an intern editor, WOULD be news.

  • Wow! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Morrigu ( 29432 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @08:21AM (#15993055) Homepage Journal
    Wow.

    It's only 0818h EDT here, and there's already a completely incomprehensible write-up on Slashdot.

    I mean, I played AD&D (2nd Ed w/ liberal additions from whatever 1st Ed source materials we had on hand) for a good solid 10 years plus some play-by-email campaigns afterwards, and I try to keep up with goings-on at WotC and the D&D universe in general, but ... wow.

    Puts a whole new meaning into "WTF".
  • I agree, I can't read this crap.

  • Sorry for the horrible summary (Score:5, Informative)

    by d.3.l.t.r.3.3 ( 892347 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @09:21AM (#15993313) Homepage
    I apologize for the horrible summary (since I'm not native english, I sort of expected that). I guess that, or the editor has superpowers, or the summary is comprehensible (aside for the idiomatic fiascos). The point of the summary (and of the article) is: Turbine, one of the major sponsors of MMORPG.COM, tried more or less willingly to gain design credits on a campaign setting they are licensed to use. While many Eberron fans pointed the Warforged discrepancy to the editing staff of MMORPG, they basically ignored them with an official reply, not even bothering to sort things out. So I asked Baker for clarifications, that was kindly enough to work out my apparently poor english and write back an answer that straighten thing out: Turbine has no control over Baker's world. This not what DDO staff said at PAX and it's irritating that to make users believe they did some serious work for their pretty shallow and superficial (at least at start) D&D licensed game they have to steal another designer's work that should have to be the base for their own game setting (like Baker pointed out). End of story. Sorry again.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kafka47 ( 801886 )

      Uh, could you please rephrase that?

      (heheh, couldn't resist) :-)

      /K

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by kafka47 ( 801886 )

      This not what DDO staff said at PAX and it's irritating that to make users believe they did some serious work for their pretty shallow and superficial (at least at start) D&D licensed game they have to steal another designer's work that should have to be the base for their own game setting (like Baker pointed out).

      I'll grant you that this was an unsightly boast on behalf of Turbine. Not giving proper credit, even.

      But stealing someone's work? They didn't steal anything. They have been tasked with cr

      • Jackon never took credit saying he created Aragorn or he highly contributed to the official development of the Tolkien's setting. There's a difference, since neither Tolkien Foundation or WOTC licensing programs allows content to flow upwards and strictly assure that products will respect a very specific canon.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by kafka47 ( 801886 )
          That's still a far cry from "stealing". Poor choice of words, yes. But they're allowed to make a game using Warforged, because they're a key race within Eberron.

          Believe me, Baker has gotten plenty of the credit for the creation of Eberron. In fact, he's credited on the front page of Turbine's DDO Website [ddo.com].

          I'm not sure what you have against DDO, but you're making a far bigger deal out of this than it deserves. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

          /K

    • Dude, it happens. While I posted some vitriol a few posts up, your English isn't THAT horrible.

      Anyway, this kind of misrepresentation can't be all that uncommon. You cannot create a game and say "Well, we really made a shallow shell of a game around a solid imaginative core made by someone only related to us by our checkbook. Go us!".

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by aseth ( 893952 )
      I find it quite likely that the error lies with the MMORPG.COM author. There were numerous mistakes in the featured article - Magic Missiles, for one, aren't dodgable in DDO.

      "I questioned James also about the choice of Eberron and was told that it was recommended by Wizards of the Coast. The continent of Xen'drik had yet to have lore fleshed out and Turbine was basically given the ability to build their own world, including a new playable race - the Warforged." is the quote from the article. I wouldn't
  • I thought you had to be literate to play D&D.

  • MMORPG.COM is a good site (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WCMI92 ( 592436 ) on Monday August 28, 2006 @09:27AM (#15993361) Homepage
    It's one of the few that don't kiss the ass of the game publishers, such as SOE. They even have stickied "We are angry at SOE threads" in the SWG forum, for example. The MMORPG SWG forum has become the main refuge for us, as we are free from the harsh censorship and favorites playing on the SOE boards.

    (Indeed, the suckups called "Galactic Senators" on the SOE boards get so pissed that we can talk freely there that they come over and troll us).

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by d.3.l.t.r.3.3 ( 892347 )

      Nobody's saying they are bad (they are pointed as good in a wide number of my posts), just saying that there's always something that cannot assure you gaming sites are super partes in an absolute way.

      Also, SOE doesn't run massive advertising on the site. My point is not against the sites but against the political choices you are more or less obliged to take when you are under such circumstances.

      I really respected the choice of The Escapist to seek advertising outside the gamedom (mostly) to avoid possible

  • Everyone always takes credit for developing the game. It's a cold-water shower the first time you see your publisher take credit for making the game you're slaving away at, but it's what happens every time. Likewise the developer will take full credit whenever possible for the success of a game, even though it may be deeply related to creative advertising and strokes of distribution genious by the publisher... not to mention them seeing the potential in the design and actually funding the thing. The deve
  • DDO sucks, their I said it. If someome else hasn't beaten me to it, it's been said now.

    I played DDO in the beta, I was part of the head start, and played through til almost module 2. My subscription was paid up til August, I quit playing the first week of June. The game is just bad, and the more Turbine does the more they shy away from Keith Baker's vision of what Eberron is to be like(read the intro to the campaign setting and you'll get the idea) and the more it isn't DnD. About the only good thing t
    • Speaking as someone who has extensive experience with Turbine's other MMORPGs. To qualify I played Asheron's Call 2 for about a year and Asheron's Call from beta until the release of WoW...
      Even when Turbine has a decent game at release they WILL screw it up in future patches. They will cater to the power gamers and the cheaters more than any group of folks you have ever seen. The stuff that was going on in AC1 was absolutely ridiculous by the time I quit and it has gotten worse since them. Inflation of item
  • Why in the heck is *anyone* trying to take credit for *any* piece of the unmitigated and unplayable disaster that is DDO?

    Seriously, if I was the world designer, I'd be distancing myself from that smoking bombshell as far and as fast as possible. Turbine somehow managed to take what should have been the #1 slam dunk MMORPG franchise, the potential World of Warcraft killer, and turn it into a laughingstock that will quietly fall back into the shadows and be even smaller and less relevant than Puzzle Pirates

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Sage Gaspar ( 688563 )
      I thought it was actually a lot of fun. If they'd added more content and maybe made the engine a little bit smoother, I'd probably still be on board now.

      D&D definitely isn't slam-dunk though. It and its licensed game are much less relevant to newer generations of gamers. The people who'd be likely to get into it are instead using fantasy MMOs or MUDs as an outlet, whether they're poor substitutes or not. When guilds I've in have had discussions about who plays D&D, usually it's only maybe 10% of th

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Macgrrl ( 762836 )

        Oddly enough, almost all the WoW players I know in RL have played tabletop games at some stage, many of them still play in D&D campaigns. But that could be that I have a skewed sample. My WoW guild thinks it odd when my husband and I skip a raid to play D&D.

        • It is tough to say, but I would say you're probably part of a smaller demographic. "People that you know in real life that play WoW" is a drop in the bucket compared to even some larger guilds, let alone everyone in the game. Then again, I can't claim to know that many people out of the total number of players either.

          Anyway, I think the point still stands that D&D isn't a hot MMO commodity. The basic settings and races of D&D are pretty much a page from the generic fantasy handbook. No one's going
    • Granted, the summary wasn't exactly clear, but it was more like Turbine trying to take credit for Eberron's Warforged race, not the other way around.
  • One thing DDO has done is maximized the use of the Y axis in all their maps, creating a true 3-D world. Who doesn't love Feather Fall?

    First of all, I would argue that this is the use of the Z axis, not the Y.

    Secondly, I would point out that City of Heroes has had this, including in-flight combat, for 2.5 years.

    But kudos to Turbine for implementing this functionality, which was sorely lacking in Neverwinter Nights.
  • This /. article has been brought to you by Engrish.com [engrish.com], providing quality incomprehensible articles for over a decade!
  • From my readings of Secrets of Xen'drik, the quori originally created the warforged, forty thousand years ago in their war with the giants.



    What?

  • I guess Turbine is going to claim they invented the Nazgul for LOTRO next.

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