MA Senator Decries OpenDocument Decision 233
An anonymous reader writes to mention a ZDNet article on Massachusetts senator Marc Pacheco's OpenDocument study. The report blasts the decision to switch to the OSS-friendly document format, saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens. From the article: "'The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn). Then he was told to get it done and forget about any obstacles,' Pacheco said. Although OpenDocument is not yet widely used, other government entities, including Belgium, have expressed interest in OpenDocument as a standard as well."
Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Insightful)
You are witnessing ignorance when someone claims a format is insufficient because a suite of applications supports more functionality.
The real irony is that someone will probably write a plug-in [linux-watch.com] for MS products to use OpenDocument anyway.
Microsoft's eager to offer plug-ins for nearly any other proprietary file format. It just seems that the second someone tries to give something they worked on away for free, Microsoft starts criticizing it as being too slow for the user.
And what's wrong with that? Happens all the time. You put a person in a powerful position and they make executive decisions. They are busy so they delegate it to someone else. I'm waiting for the reason that this was a bad move. Do you expect a board to discuss and delegate on every issue down to what file format is used by the government? Do you want the process to require that much time and resource?
Nobody's crapping bricks when the sewage administrator is mandating standardized units being used on reports for the city's waterways and sewers now, are they? Won't somebody please think about the vertically disabled people that like to report their height in centimeters, not inches so that it's a larger number and they feel taller?
<sarcasm>My god, the state's IT Division is trying to advise the state government on what file format to adopt. What is this world coming to?</sarcasm>
After delivering his speech, John Winske shook hands with Steve Ballmer & was seen struggling to drag away a visibly overladened burlap sack with a giant green '$' on the front of it.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Insightful)
The point is, does OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office? Obviously it's (mostly) the app not the format that addresses this, but it's a valid bitch: Does OpenOffice or any of the o
An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, you're right, I am blinded by my own zeal. Thank you for helping me see the light.
Not only should we select a document format that supports speech, but that should be embedded into the file format as a wav. I think that this will make it easier for applications to play it for the user.
Also embedded in the document will be a massive bitmap containing high resolution images with enlarged fonts for our users h
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:5, Insightful)
From what I recall, it saves a memory dump to a file. That would include app state, undo, and other information that didn't need to survive, and it shoves it into semi-permanent storage. This explains a bunch of retarded, mind-boggling things we've all heard (and disbelieved) about Word, such as:
1) There are old, deleted, removed items still lingering in the saved data. (Proven, and has bitten people in the ass. I'm guessing it's Undo steps saved as part of the dump.)
2) Your example - "Hello, World!" takes 24k. (How much working memory does a fresh instance of Word use in the amount of time it takes to open a new document from the Normal template, type something, and save it? I'd guess about 24k.)
3) Every Word release comes with a new format, while Excel and other Office apps don't always have a new format. (The app footprint changes with every release, of course, so the memory dump does too.)
4) Word can usually open its own format very quickly, while other apps take FOREVER to import it. (It just loads working memory with whatever's in the file, while other apps don't use the same info and have to figure out what everything means.)
5) Word sometimes can't even open its own format. (Whoops, something got out of place before this file was dumped, now Word can't reconstruct its memory map! CRASH!)
Absolutely retarded. And Microsoft has the nerve to ask why anyone would want to use other software. I dare them to ask why anyone would want to use THEIR insecure, buggy, incompatible, locked-in, proprietary, asstastic formats and the apps that produce them. Microsoft should've stuck to what it did best: make Excel better.
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't even need to make some crazy argument about including a dictionary of definitions of words used(recursive even) in the document.
As far as what is in the bloated file, who cares? If you want a text file, use a text file, Word is a word processing/document layout monstrosity.
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually - the proposal that included moving to ODF as the official format also included continued use of MS Office as required until a full migration could be made for everyone. That is, assuming Microsoft insisted in to providing a method for MS Office to use ODF. Which, honestly, is a funny thing to do when a major customer has a set requirement. Zealotry, indeed.
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:2)
Also, at what point was GP arguing for MS Office? The most you can glean from GP's post regarding his opinions on MS Office is that he's neutral, as there's nothing whether he prefers MS Office or not, only that one function of MS Offi
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:3, Informative)
Now you're intentionally refusing to see the problem.
You can argue until you're blue in the face that document format and application features are two separate things, but this fact remains: if you dictate a format, t
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:5, Insightful)
"You can argue until you're blue in the face that document format and application features are two separate things, but this fact remains: if you dictate a format, then people have to use an application that supports the format!"
An application that supports the format? You mean, like, Microsoft Office [linux-watch.com]?
I think you're the one missing the point here. Anyone who argues apps agains formats is liable to fall into the same logical hole: Just because an app - or an app-maker, for that matter - doesn't support a format today, doesn't mean that they can't or won't. The mere fact that it is standard and required will almost inevitably be enough to ensure that someone steps up and supports the format.
Ultimately, the whole point of open formats is the exact opposite of telling someone which application they can or cannot use. The truth of it is that open formats allow the customer to decide what's best for him, without fear of finding himself at the mercy of a single, predatory vendor.
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:2)
IIRC, there's an "Office fast start" loaded at login by default after an office install.
Re:An Even Better Proposed Format (Score:3, Funny)
If that's your response to a 7 second delay, I'd hate to carpool with you ;)
I kid, I kid...
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2, Informative)
So the good thing about OpenDocument is that everyone can read the format. Even if you're a user with disabilities and you need to use MS Office.
And eventually, there will be a read
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Insightful)
Does Microsoft Office (the only application which fully supports the Microsoft Office format) offer the same level of help for people without Microsoft Office on their machine as OpenDoc apps do?? Do you really think this world (or Mass. even) has more "people with disabilities" than it has "people without Microsoft Office"?
Most people who are not completely blinded by their own addiction to Microsoft will honestly say "no".
You're living in the here and now. In ten years or so, even you will be disabled when it comes to reading Microsoft Office documents produced in the current version of Microsoft Office unless those documents have been converted to whatever new format Microsoft will be pushing then.
Ten years ago, your computer was (likely) running Win95 (because Win98 won't be available for another two years yet). Documents produced in 1996 by whatever version of Word Microsoft was pushing back then might still be mostly readable in the current version. But if they aren't, good luck finding a copy of the OS and a copy of the application which created them to use.
Now think about 20 years ago. 50 years? We're not talking about some school-kid's homework, we're talking about Public Records which belong to the residents of Mass. in 2106 as much as the Mass. Constitution belongs to the residents of the Commonwealth today.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?f
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3)
Cool! i guess we're all good to go.
$sudo dpkg -i wdviewer.exe
Password:
dpkg-deb: `wdviewer.exe' is not a debian format archive
dpkg: error processing wdviewer.exe (--install):
subprocess dpkg-deb --control returned error exit status 2
Errors were encountered while processing:
wdviewer.exe
hey wait a minute. it's not working.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:4, Insightful)
like blind people?
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Insightful)
You're Missing the Point (Score:5, Insightful)
You're confusing the document format with one of the many applications that can read/write that format. The state mandate was for Open Document. You're complaining that Open Office - one of 15 applications that can read/write Open Document - is inferior to Microsoft Office.
Microsoft could quite easily write a plugin to read/write Open Document. Microsoft Office already support dozens of other formats of dubious quality and relevance. Open Document is clearly relevant and IMO of very high quality. Why is Open Document such a problem for Microsoft? I think I know why. Do you?
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Funny)
MS won't ever support a standard that directs interest away from themselves unless someone holds their feet to the fire. It's not suprising at all, or even particularly "evil". Like any dumb beast, they just need a kick in the nuts every now and then to point them in the right direction.
Oh, if you're a person w/ disabilities... why the hell are you not using a Mac? Don't make us suffer because of your masochistic tendencies, ok?
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Insightful)
Years of using programs like Microsoft Word and other proprietary applications have gotten people used to thinking that applications and document formats have a 1:1 relationship. It's so rare, outside of a few widely-accepted interchange formats (txt, jpg, gif, bmp, etc.) to be able to use a single document format across a number of applications, without the format "belonging" to one particular program, that people can't separate the two anymore.
People criticize software for things they don't like in the format -- even though many programs today (including OO) can use many different document formats -- and they criticize the format for things they don't like in whatever's perceived to be "its" application.
People who are pushing Open Standards need to be more clear about the difference between a format and the software that uses it. 'OpenDocument' is a format, OpenOffice.org is just one of the many applications that can use that format.
That said, the MA politician in the article is a first-class tool, so I wouldn't count on ever educating his type, except through large wads of cash. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's getting some sort of kickback from Redmond at some level, or has a personal grudge against the IT office, or is hoping to make this into some bit of a power play. I doubt very much he gives two squirts of piss about the actual issue; it's just "an issue" to him.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
2 or 3 weeks ago MS declared they were giving $30M of equipmen
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
On a related note, Mitch Bainwol and Cary Sherman were seen chuckling hearily upon hearing about the donation
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:4, Informative)
I thought of that too, so I looked up his contributors at http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/campaigns/
I suspect that these two are pandering to a special interest group (in this case, the disabled) to gain votes in upcoming elections. Of course, pandering to Microsoft may benefit them too.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
To be fair, exchanging read/write documents in a complex format is not at all easy. Even web browsers aren't fully compatible in simplay displaying documents! One thing is almost certain: word processors never quite work right with anyt
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
The web is borked due to standards being implemented incorrectly and browser makers having to make the decisions on supporting X widely used feature or sticking to the standard. I'm sure if you want to read up fully there are a billion rants simply a search away.
When it comes down to ODF...
It's not precisely proprietary so anyone can make a filter to import to their native feature set. If the software vendor simply can't figure out how to make it work with their own software then perhaps they
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Interesting)
You are absolutely correct that the Senator is talking about a red herring.
You can also argue with him, claiming that those who cannot afford the money to purchase either OSX or Windows and a copy of MS Office are effectively 'disabled' and incapable of composing compatible documents.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
Once he's bought, he stays bought.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Funny)
It's kind of ironic. I must be part of the audience for which this senator is attempted to advocate. I was working on a Word document for a coworker that was a glorifed form. She couldn't get it to not bullet her paragraphs as individual list items. After struggling with it for a while, I was able to overcome this amazing "feature" by randomly deleting text until it stopped auto-formatting the paragraph (I achieved this by pasting the text into Notepad, removing some funny characters, clearing out the f
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:3, Insightful)
If MS Office can open ODF then people with special needs can just use that to open the ODF file and everyone else can use whatever they want that supports ODF. That's the beauty of an open format.
Massachusettes didn't pass a law saying all citizens and government employees of the state have to use OpenOffice, just that the state h
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:4, Informative)
I just took a look at my Ubuntu installation and I can turn on "Assistive Technology Support" which includes a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard.
Of course, these tools work with all applications in the OS, not just the office suite. But is surely works for OpenOffice, etc.
This bozo politician seems to be saying that Open Documents don't have these features but clearly they do.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, please. You can't expect politicians to have any comprehension of the issues that they make world-changing decisions about.
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
Actually, they pretty much only support legacy formats. You won't find modern WordPerfect or Lotus converters in there either.
I think what the ODF Supporter miss is that right now there is basically zero demand for ODF from MS Office customers. Which is too bad, because ODF is a good idea, but a couple random state governments is not a real substantial customer base.
If you walk up to Microsoft and demand support for Random Obsc
Re:Apples & Oranges (Score:2)
No, he is making a valid point. Why change to a new standard when your current standard has better software which supports disabled people?
I'm not say
Check this senator's campaign contributions. (Score:3, Interesting)
Help for Disabilities? (Score:5, Insightful)
Keyword being yet
Re:Help for Disabilities? (Score:5, Informative)
Check out the Windows XP Accessibility Resources [microsoft.com] website:
Re:Help for Disabilities? (Score:2)
Re:Help for Disabilities? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Help for Disabilities? (Score:2)
Re:Help for Disabilities? (Score:2)
Campaign contributions (Score:5, Informative)
-- http://www.cio.com/archive/040106/opensource.html
Sure, $600 is only a token, but its the thought that counts.
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:3, Funny)
buy a copy of Microsoft Windows *and* Microsoft Office!
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:3, Interesting)
Further, why shouldn't someone contribute to those legislators that agree with your position> That's how all campaign finance works. You support those you agree with, either financially or with voting or both.
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:3, Insightful)
Because then the politician places the interests of his contributors above the interests of the people he represents. This is why campaigns should be government funded--to remove the incentive to misuse your position (of course, some will still misuse it). Are there any members of Congress who actually represent their constituents anymore?
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
If people contribute to legislators that support their position, the legislators aren't bound to the contributors: they will put pro-contributor positions forth as a consequence of their already e
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
It sounds like someone is living in an idealized fantasy world. Come back to reality! The main goal of a congressman is to simply keep getting reelected; they can't do that if they lose their financial backers, which is what would happen if they didn't actively promote the desires of those
WRONG (Score:2)
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
He can use that to buy a Linux license from SCO.
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
Re:Campaign contributions (Score:2)
Accessability Is for everyone (Score:5, Insightful)
Another note. I thought screen readers just read the text on your screen, regardless of what program is displaying them. I guess I was wrong about this, since Accessibility seems to be a big issue.
Re:Accessability Is for everyone (Score:2)
Chain of command (Score:4, Insightful)
Um, isn't that how everything gets done? A superior instructs a person lower-down on the totem pole to complete a task? In theory the person in the "very powerful position" is the person with the authority to make such decisions. So... what's the problem?
Some in disability community see value to ODF (Score:5, Interesting)
Disregarded disabled citizens? (Score:2, Insightful)
You know, Boston's "Big Dig" doesn't do me a bit of good here in the West, so why the hell should I pay for it? Oh yeah, I forgot, government is supposed to reflect the will of the majority, not just the vocal minority. We all make sacrifices -- and in this case, a very small one -- for the good of society as a whole.
Re:Disregarded disabled citizens? (Score:2)
Not only are they disregarding disabled citizens, they've also forgotten about the Mexican Immigrants, Gays & Lesbians, Athiests, African Americans, and the French. Damn it
Re:Disregarded disabled citizens? (Score:2)
The dam thing is just a "better" way for people outside of the city
to get from one side to the other. Now the Urban Ring would actually
benefit the people whose construction it'd inconvenience, but that
(like other things) would make too much sense.
Governor's office fires back. (Score:5, Informative)
Pacheo has been on the wrong side of this for a while. I guess he figured it was time for another headline.
Disabled Citizens? (Score:5, Insightful)
saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens.
How about poor citizens who can't afford the Microsoft Tax?
Re:Disabled Citizens? (Score:2)
Re:Disabled Citizens? (Score:2)
Hey, if you put them on lay-away, they can be remarkably cheap on a weekly basis. Of course you do have to wait a while to take them home, and occasionally some screw-up will sell them off the reserved shelf, but all in all not a bad way to go.
What you have to look out for are these rent-a-rep locations. Yeah, you get to use the senator right away, but you end up having to pay so much more for them after the fees and what-not.
Pacheco (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Pacheco (Score:3, Funny)
Other things to stay away from.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Other things to stay away from.. (Score:2)
And that's complete and utter bullshit brought on by looking at too much flash.
The web was designed as the PERFECT accessible format. The user specifies the fonts, the size, the colors, hell even the wrapping.
Do you know how much that pisses off multimedia designer types? Hence the web we have now. HTML became PDF, and that wasn't enough
Re:Other things to stay away from.. (Score:2)
Nitpick: I thought the web was about a decade younger than that. 1981 was back when the IETF was nailing down many core features of the basic internet, and the key user-level apps were email (SMTP was created in 1981, according to what I can glean from the RFC index), telnet and ftp. At that time, even venerable NNTP was 5 years away from publication.
It's a nice litmus test issue... (Score:2)
Re:It's a nice litmus test issue... (Score:2)
Re:It's a nice litmus test issue... (Score:2)
Damit, we fell behind again?!!!!?!!!
Just last week I made my monthly bribery payment, and now you're telling me it's not even getting top rate corruption?! What the hell is this state coming to?
In related news, (Score:2)
Seriously though, even though we all know the "do it for the disabled" is a hoax in this case, when is the "lowest common denominator" mentality just too ridiculous? Law of diminishing returns... spend 20% of your resources to meet the needs of 80% of the people. Spend 80% of your resources to
Re:In related news, (Score:2)
But what's the cost savings? (Score:4, Insightful)
To say that Opensource programs don't offer benefits to handicapped people -- a group who continuously gets short shrift when it comes to state and government budgeting -- is a little ironic.
Why not transfer the cost savings of switching from MS Office to OO.org to a budget for handicapped services. I'm sure the handicapped population would be more than happy with that.
It's always about the bottom line (Score:5, Insightful)
And ODF = free.
In fact, I'm fairly certain that if Massachusetts wanted to hire 5-10 developers to create a program to deal with ODFs in a disability-accessible manner, it still wouldn't cost as much as using proprietary software.
Re:It's always about the bottom line (Score:2)
Technically, ODF is just a file format. The reader and writer can be a cost. In the form of OpenOffice or any other of the F/OSS that can read/write it, it's free.
That said, if they were to convert to OOo, there would be a training cost for both end users and IT. I think, this is the main reason why MS will not release a plug-in. If they do, then there is MUCH less cost in associated to going to OOo. The transition cost is pretty much the only barrier they have right now to prevent moving
Marc Pacheco takes money from MS (Score:3, Interesting)
State Senator != Senator (Score:5, Informative)
"Massachusetts Senator" == (Edward "Ted" Kennedy || John Kerry)
Marc Pacheco is a "Massachusetts State Senator", i.e. one of 40 members of the upper house of the bicameral Massachusetts state legislature.
Big difference.
Paging Pot, Kettle Calling (Score:3, Interesting)
Seems to me that Senator Pacheco wanted to make the decision himself -- just in the opposite direction!
And this whole more powerful/less powerful discussion sounds like an overdose of Politically Correct thinking, which makes him a danger as anybody's senator.
Re:Paging Pot, Kettle Calling (Score:2)
And for also... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:And for also... (Score:2)
Sigh, I was going to use the Bush Sr. & the grocery store ancecdote here but Snopes [snopes.com] says it's not what it's cracked up to be.
Guess I'll have to fall back to the standard: Because he's a clueless pratt who just got a $30M 'donation' to the state education system by MS - s
I'm disabled... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention these same guys at this end of the political spectrum in general typically won't give a shit about disabled people's rights in anything, as mostly, we're just "bad for the economy". Apparently we can still be "useful" in some situations.
They should just speak for themselves and not get all caring and compassionate all of a sudden when it serves their own interest.
A different point of view... (Score:2, Interesting)
Is Microsoft Office (to include its file formats) an open standard. No, however they are a 'de facto standard'.
ODF while an open standard, true will gain more users overtime, but to simply dismiss proprietory software companies
simply because they won't 'open' their standards is foolish. The question of how Microsoft gained their 'de facto' standard,
I'll leave to others, I simply look at it li
Re:A different point of view... (Score:3, Insightful)
Your own post says "I've never had a problem getting other document formats to work in Word or any other MS application". Despite this, Microsoft is trying their hardest to make sure you have a "problem"
contacting marc pacheco (Score:2)
http://www.mass.gov/legis/member/mrp0.htm [mass.gov]
his e-mail address is:
Marc.Pacheco@state.ma.us
let this corrupt little vermin know what you think of him.
Re:Whats all the fuss (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Whats all the fuss (Score:2)
OK, I just saved a document in MS Word from my Windows 3.1 machine. I'll email it to you as soon as I get trumpet winsock to work again....
OK did you get it? Good, go ahead and try opening that in your spiffy Office 2003. Oh, it didn't work? Um, sorry that's alls I have to save it with besides notepad.
Face it MS products are not compatible with each other, let alone with anythi
Re:Whats all the fuss (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:follow the money (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Yeah right (Score:3, Interesting)
You're right - that would be ridiculous. Since the OpenDocument Foundation released an OpenDocument plugin for Word [slashdot.org], at least Massachusetts won't have to deal with any bizarre scenarios like that with their word processing.
Re:Yeah right (Score:2)
1) there are multiple apps that do read thiis format.
2) it isn't hard for MS to create a converter for this. When they wanted to convert WordPerfect users to Word, they not only created a plug in for multiple WP formats, but had a WP mode within Word.
3) it's not some guy in his basement wrote this. It's an ECMA standard.
MS has long known the power of network effects. In the beginning it would do anything to give away software, just so they'd try it, and establish network effects.
Re:Unusual statement in summary (Score:3, Insightful)