Internet For All in Europe 186
evileyetmc writes "It seems that the EU has taken the next big step in promoting the concept of Internet for All, by attempting to 'ensure that the most Web-disadvantaged groups can get online.'" From the article: "The EC has now pledged to increase broadband coverage across the continent to 90 percent by 2010. Rural areas are still underserved, according to the Commission, with about 60 percent penetration. Urban areas fare better and are already at the 90 percent mark. The EC has also committed to putting new measures in place to halve exclusion rates in skills and digital literacy by 2010. "
mis-titled (Score:1, Funny)
Re:mis-titled (Score:1)
Re:mis-titled (Score:1)
I wonder how history will judge us (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Interesting)
The U.S. will resemble Manhattan. The EU will resemble Woodstock. As I live midway between these two places and frequent them both, I can tell you that each are interesting -- nay, captivating -- in their own way. Neither place is "better;" each has its fanatical supporters and detractors. I fall in love
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Insightful)
Woodstock 1999, you mean?
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
The Woodstock Music and Art Festival was a rock festival held at Max Yasgur's 600 acre (2.4 km) dairy farm in Bethel, New York
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Here's a tip: Don't just plug words and phrases into Wikipedia and regurgitate them back onto major websites as if The Lord Has Spoken. There is so much wrong with that, on so many levels...
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Informative)
Don't hold your breath on this one. I think the more likely scenario is that in the US, you will have really fast service for a small fee and in parts of Europe, you'll have a slow connection provided by the government that has problems and is perpetually in great need of an upgrade. The truth is that the
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Yeah, because this is what's happening now... oh wait, it's not.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:4, Insightful)
Haha. Two words: data retention
One of these idiotic, invasive things which got first thought out here in good old europe and then exported to the US (we have to 'catch up with the rest of the world' or what are they always telling you?)
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
What you ignore is that big business cannot survive on the internet without average folk and small businesses. The corps are not completely self-sufficient. They buy/sell products and services from/to small businesses and individual consumers and increasingly look to do such transactions over the net to
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Insightful)
In Europe, the Internet will be a place (more like what we in the US have today) where ideas are exchanged freely.
Sheesh, what are you talking about? Are you talking about the same United States that guarantees free speech in the constitution (which is NOT typically guranteed in Europe) and has protected us many times from an overzealous government? And are you talking about the same Europe with France that tried to ban certain Yahoo auctions? And are you talking about the same Europe that put a man in [rferl.org]
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:4, Insightful)
No, I'm talking about the United States that guarantees "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." But yet the Supreme Court determined that it isn't an "unreasonable search" for the government to break down your door, rummage through your house, take what they want, and not bother to identify themeselves or why they are there. And it's the same United States that redefined "warrants" to include warrants after the fact. Even with the rights explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution, the government still takes them away. That's the United States I'm posting from. Where is your Unites States? I would like to visit there some day.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
against unreasonable searches and seizures
There's that pesky word "unreasonable" again.
But yet the Supreme Court determined that it isn't an "unreasonable search" for the government to break down your door, rummage through your house, take what they want, and not bother to identify themeselves or why they are there.
And why should they? If they have a warrant (*see below), then I have no problem with the authorities doing the above in order to enforce law, order and justice. If it's later in the pr
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Does that mean you want the government to violate the Constitution when someone agrees with it, or does that mean that you think the actions are not in violation of the Constitution? I can't understand on which point (or both) that you don't have a problem with it.
particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I see it as simply unconstitutional (whether you "have a problem with that" is a separate issue). By the wording, the wa
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
--
Learn to love Alaska [romancingalaska.com]
About 1000 miles south/southeast.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Informative)
You are wrong there, I think. To quote from the Danish constitution (chapter VIII, if you care)
Translated (by me, tired)It is every citizens right to publish his thoughts in written or
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Well, I think you mean UK on "most of Europe" as they don't have a constitution, but for much of Continental Europe your statement doesn't stand.
Specifically, my country's constitution [wikisource.org] specifically says "61. (1) A Magyar Köztársaságban mindenkinek joga van a szabad véleménynyilvánításra, továbbá arra, hogy a közérdek adatokat megismerje, illetleg terjessze.",
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2, Insightful)
See articles 9 and 10 here [opsi.gov.uk], which applies everywhere in the EU. And we can all have a much better discussion about human rights and freedoms when you bastards have either released or properly trialled everyone at Guantanamo - I agree with you on the mindless anti-americanism, but Bush has made it so much easier to be insightfully anti-american.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Please don't involve Europe in places that have gotten into wars most recently. :-p
The difference is that Europe fought wars of expansion and domination, whereas the US is fighting wars against agressive hostiles.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yeah, because Iraq was clearly hostile to the USA, I mean it's well known that they had WMDs (except not), were dangerous extremists (except not) and hosted heaps of terrorists (except not).
Well, Fox News for the win I guess.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
That means that while some countries may have fought wars of expansion and domination during the course of history, it doesnt say we a
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Europe will be seen as a socialists wasteland, where most people, except the ultrarich, settled for free government subsidized internet, while spouting about their taxes being too high.
That's all I can guess. Pampered welfare babies don't have any "right" to post polit
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2, Insightful)
How comes that I can't bloody call Europe from a payphone in Chicago airport? And where are the credit-card phones? It's an international airport, not a café! It's not that I did not try, and I tried the week later too. Yes, I know you use 011 instead of 00. It finally worked on Broadway by the 50th street.
Why
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
you must be in Amsterdam smoking some weed to say something as incredibly daft as "Europe... where ideas are exchanged freely"
In Europe, you can exchange ideas so long as they're everyone else's ideas. Jeremy [thepetitionsite.com] Clarkson [guardian.co.uk] would beg to differ [wikipedia.org] that ideas can be freely exchanged.
you can't even bring up actual real history without getting into trouble. You can't sell WWII memorabilia in France if it [pcworld.com]
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
And you said with certainty that in Europe with socialized internet service provision, ideas would be exchanged freely, versus the U.S. sys
Re:As long as U.S. citizens can afford it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:As long as U.S. citizens can afford it (Score:3, Insightful)
On top of that, a lot of places leave wide-open WiFi in every major city all over the world. I've found WEP-free connections in both Ely, Minnesota and Tokyo, Japan.
All this "Internet Disadvantaged" crap is nons
Re:As long as U.S. citizens can afford it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:As long as U.S. citizens can afford it (Score:2)
You get away from it all, but you're away from it all.
Re:As long as U.S. citizens can afford it (Score:2)
If by "most people" you mean "people living within two miles of a public library", sure.
The United States had 9074 public libraries" [ed.gov] as of 2001. It also has 3,537,441 square miles in total. Assuming no overlap in public libraries, (9074*3.14159*2^2) = 114027 square miles of "walkable" library coverage, or 3.2% of the total land area.
Only about 6% [newamerica.net] of the land of the United States is actually used for residence.
The absolute upper limit of "percentage of people
Re:As long as U.S. citizens can afford it (Score:2)
However, MY nearest public library is further than two miles away, and I live in a ~80,000 population town. So perfect coverage isn't.
What does posting online do ? (Score:2)
You, me a few hundred others will read the comments we posted here. ALMOST NONE will act on them.
What matters is the big reach. Now hype bloggers can do that, popular nonprofit organizations can do that, but, when at&t does its thing, only the one who can pay big bandwidth exthortion fees will be able to do that.
It is not posting online that matters. It is reaching millions that matters
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think competition is an issue and as time is moving on broadband is getting much cheaper, much faster, more reliable and with greater penetration. I suppose it just goes to show the value of a mixed economy over a pure free market. Nobody is in danger of taking our internet bar the American companies since all net usage still requires the US for things like DNS (that will obviously start to change the day US telcos break net neutrality, the EU will get Galileo/GPS about it likely).
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Just how the heck do you figure that?
Neither place is anything like a free market, so you're comparing one mixed economy with another and somehow this comparison leads you to believe they're both better than a free market, which isn't part of your comparison?
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:4, Interesting)
GP's point was about the Net Neutrality thing issue, not about the cost of broadband.
States subsidies the pipes, then forbits anyone to hog them for himself. In france, it was done via deblocking for example, the historical operator (France Telecom) who owned all the pipes was forced by law to let concurrents access these pipes directly up to the very consumer's house (that's total deblocking, partial deblocking means that the alernative operators get direct access to the DSLAMs and the local loop is still the historical operator's turf).
Granted the price of broadband may stay high, but if what happened in france is any indication it won't.
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
That's only one of the reasons though, the other one being that national P&Ts are, as every monopolistic entities, frigging greedy bastards.
About ISDN, that's another issue, ISDN lines can be assimilated to specialized lines, they're supposed to be extremely reliable and (at least in france) have quite hig
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
That, or govt-subsidized laying of the pipes and then unrestricted access to these pipes to competitive private entities for a fee.
That's what happened in france where the govt-sponsored historical operator was required by law to let competitors access the consumers directly (partial & full deblocking)... (and france is not known for it
Re:I wonder how history will judge us (Score:2)
The GP never said anything about monetary cost, his "free" was "free as in freedom", not "free as in free beer".
While you do have the right to be pro-capitalism and free trade, you're not supposed to be that stupid.
Are you aware that the state of broadband in Europe is already noticeably better than the state of broadband in the US?
eire (Score:2, Informative)
Here in ireland we constantly being promised internet for everyone and we are always get screwed over,
maybe with pressure from Europe, Eircom will pull their head out of their behind (they dont listen to the governement much anyways)
hell im on wireless "broadband" (Irish Broadband) now in Dublin city center and i can barely get above 30K (yes thats almost twice slower than dial up! when were meant to het up to 512K)
soo much for Knowledge Economy!
[/end rant]
Re:eire (Score:2, Funny)
When you say it like that, it almost sounds like it's faster.
Re:eire (Score:2, Informative)
Ireland and Britian are not seeing "The benifits" of this economic ability to give 3rd worlds broadband, when their own front door doesnt have the same simple privlages, who ARE able to afford to pay for broadband.
This could be arguged that we have massive mo
Re:eire (Score:2, Informative)
Re:eire (Score:2)
Either way, that makes mine seem good in comparison (used to be £60/mo for 512kbps).
Re:eire (Score:2)
Since I moved to Liverpool, I have not been able to get broadband because the providers do not have "coverage" in my area
And the incredible thing is that I am at 5 blocks from the city centre and 4 blocks from the "University Of Liverpool". The only way I can get broadband is getting a telephone line, but screw it, I do not call anyone (I am not Briton) here, and I only need Skype and VoIpbuster for my long distance needs. Therefore, I refuse to give away 10 pounds a month PLUS the inte
Re:eire (Score:2)
Telephony means there is copper going into your house which other stuff can ride on. It doesn't need to be a telephone line. It can even be cable tv.
If you want true wireless, then you have the option of 3G (works in most city centres), but the pricing there is more in the direction of bus
That's because broadband isn't easy (Score:2)
Re:eire (Score:2)
As you pointed out, of course, essentially no one uses kBps for network speeds, for historical reasons, so if you see a 512k c
Re:I suggest you research the US situation.. (Score:2)
This is one of the many reasons this net non-neutrality stuff is so dangerous: it will affect far more than just
The question is, what KIND of internet? (Score:4, Funny)
What is "tha intarweb" anyway? What do they mean? That everyone should have the means (i.e. connection speed, host space etc) to actually set up a server themselves?
Oh. It's just "access to the internet". Shouldn't be that hard, a dumb terminal with telnet will do.
Oh, you mean more than that? Can you be a little bit MORE precise what is meant with "access to the internet"?
My very personal and biased guess is "enough access that even the dumbest person can order crap online".
Re:The question is, what KIND of internet? (Score:2, Interesting)
I wish they had thought this over better because a simple computer with ubuntu on it would be much better in terms of userfriendlyness and security. Now they know that in a few months these computers will be filled with spyware because granny didn't buy a firewall.
Further more, these will miss the point compl
Re:The question is, what KIND of internet? (Score:2)
You spelled "teh" wrong.
Re:The question is, what KIND of internet? (Score:2)
I just returned from a conference on patient rights. A dutch committee headed by one of our capatains of (telecom) industry has produced a report saying that patients should be more empowered by letting them arrange stuff on the internet.
To bad your average patient is a 55+ female. give her a connection, and she won't use it, because she never learned how.
One organisation is providing some interactivi
Re:The question is, what KIND of internet? (Score:2)
W3C (Score:4, Informative)
Good to see they are caring about accessibility and compatibility, because those two are often overlooked when talking about internet coverage. They are actually talking about 90% of the population, and not just 90% geographical coverage.
Re:W3C (Score:2)
Re:W3C (Score:2)
Re:W3C (Score:2)
DL (Score:3, Insightful)
The only people I ever hear use words like 'digital literacy' are the people most clueless about computers.
-Grey [wellingtongrey.net]
Re:DL (Score:3, Funny)
This is probably a step in a wider plan.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Several european countries (with the scandinavians pretty far in the lead) are moving as many government services as possible online in order to save on paperwork and other costs. However, especially in Denmark, they observed that this leads to the problem of the elderly and other subgroups not having proper access to those services, or the adequate ability to use the tools necessary to interact with public services.
This is increasingly going to be an issue in countries where you can't, for instance, pay your taxes without online, and universal access, if it proves cheaper than the amount saved by streamlining other services, is clearly the way to go.
Re:This is probably a step in a wider plan.... (Score:2)
But computers don't promote efficiency by themselves. They can also codify stupidity, inefficiency and reading slashdot^W^Wslacking. And there will be more paper to shuffle, because everyone will insist on printing out everything several times just to see how things look different if you change the font on the page numbers of the forms by a few pixels. If people don't want to be effici
Hurm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Call my crazy and all I'm ready for it.
Let the phishing begin! (Score:2, Interesting)
- how will the "Web-disadvantaged" connect to the Internet? will the government supply some of those $100 PCs that are being developed for the third world?
- who is going to handle the tech support when these folks run into problems?
- what happens when these folks, who don't have a lot of experience on the web, get e-mail from some poor woman from Nigeria who is tr
Re:Let the phishing begin! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Let the phishing begin! (Score:2)
Fiberlines, but no broadband - welcome to Europe (Score:3, Interesting)
regards,
Stirz
Re:Fiberlines, but no broadband - welcome to Europ (Score:2)
Re:Fiberlines, but no broadband - welcome to Europ (Score:2)
At least in most bits, ADSL is still working. Fibre does go as far as the local exchange even if it doesn't go direct to individuals. Terminating fibre is expensive. Unless you are a company who is going to pay for a direct coupling, why should they deliver you fibre to your doorstep?
Wimax, last I heard was still 'being standardised' whilst the experiments are interesting, in the end, they are just that. Remember that WiMax lik
IS that (Score:2)
Like AOL browser running on Windows ME? I'm trying to think of worse . . .
Sorry for the soapbox (Score:2)
Until then, these things are just like everything else: available only to those can afford them, and that le
Re:Sorry for the soapbox (Score:2)
The internet. (Score:2)
Re:Internet shouldn't be for all (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Internet shouldn't be for all (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, that's what I want to read: Just the literature produced by financially responsible members of society. How did you know? We must be soulmates.
Ideally, we could find a way to take the pencils and wordprocessors away from anyone who doesn't shower daily, too. Our campaign motto could be, "Clean, Fiscally Responsible Stories for Clean, Fiscally, Responsible People!"
Can you imagine the literary heights to which our well-to-do society could soar?! Wow.
And for an encore, we could go around to all the hotels nationwide and replace the Gideon Bibles with the latest issue of Golf Digest...
Re:Internet shouldn't be for all (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Internet shouldn't be for all (Score:2)
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
You're one of those guys who shows up in Toronto with skis in July aren't you?
And here I thought the Canadians were just joking about that one... eh.
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Global Warming
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:4, Funny)
"New York state is a great frozen wasteland."
I see you have been to Buffalo.
Canada? Europe? (Score:2)
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
If it was possible (Score:2)
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Now I'm as paranoid as the next guy, but to say businesses legalize 'almost everything' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are plenty of laws on the books that business doesn't like, things like the SEC, FCC, HIPPA, GLBA, OSHA and the EPA. There is no doubt a good amount of government corruption and laws, like the DMCA, being pushed through by big business, but 'almost
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
u.s. is already being run by oil interest backed cronies that have started a war to grab oil fields for those groups. And the deals in iraq are being handed over to these group members sometimes without any competitive intervention. They have grabbed the government, they have started a war, they have passed phletora of laws limiting personal freedom, and u.s. citizens are dying in a remote war for those oil interests to prosper more.
Should need be, i ca
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Huh, I seem to remember voting for a president. I also seem to remember a majority voting for an incumbent President that intended to keep the war going. I won't say the oil interests aren't influencing some of the decisions that are made, but I don't see a big groundswell of citizens protesting the wa
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Who funded the advertising campaigns that have enlisted hordes of unaware public to bush camp ? (oil camp in fact) ? Who have rigged 2004 elections with what resources ? Diebold machines ?
This is just like the telcos spending $10 m in a jiffy for advertisement only, not counting the fees paid to bought lobbyists and 'donations' to congressmen.
It is just the same is in any other country - in my country too, who has the money defines who will win the next election, by donations tha
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
It's actually fairly well accepted the Bush won on a variety of issues, not the least of which was that we wern't sure if his opponent was actually alive, bolstered by the so called 'religious right'. His stand on Gay Marriage, Abortion and any number of other issues were contributing factors also. It's possible the oil companies were the funding behind advertisments and publicity (I think
Re:EU US bullshit ... Or Reality ? (Score:2)
Come on man. It
MOD PARENT INSIGHTFUL + 5 - WONDERFUL INSIGHT (Score:2)
Re:If only the U.S....... (Score:2)
We do this all the time. Don't know about where you live, but there is only one set of pipes that bring water to my house, only one cable company in town and only one electric company. There is no reason a private company can't own a utility and have service work adequately well with minimal oversight. If the government can't oversee and regulate what's going on now, what makes you think that public ownership would resu
Re:If only the U.S....... (Score:2)