Sandals and Ponytails Behind Slow Linux Adoption 948
Eric Giguere writes "CNet is reporting that according to former Massachusetts CIO Peter Quinn 'the lax dress code of the open-source community is one of the reasons behind the software's slow uptake in commercial environments.' In particular, Quinn blames the 'sandal and ponytail set' for sluggish adoption of Linux by businesses and governments." From the article: "Quinn, who faced plenty of scrutiny over his support of the OpenDocument standards-based office document format, said proponents of open source in government faced formidable opposition from vested interests if they went public."
Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
How many Slashdotters have tried to implement Open Source on an enterprise level? I have, and to be honest, it is a hell of a lot of work. Open Source is not user friendly when you have to start working off the desktop. KDE and Gnome make the desktop easy, but when you start playing with command-line stuff, things get hairy. Open Source will save acquistan(sp?) costs, but it won't save on labor.
What I can see is if a business which has a culture of suits and ties contracts with a company to provide open source solutions, has support people which are wearing sandals and jeans, then, yes, I think there will be a problem. Why would an organization that has suits have a bunched of sandeled-footed and pony-tailed people walking around their offices? Being presentable is half the equation. Knowing your stuff is the other half. If you know a lot, but you are unpresentable, unbathed, unshaven and slovenly, then no one will accept your solution. I learned this working in a retail shop. On a number of occassions, I had to come from something or go to something after work and I would be in a suit. I discovered that it is far easier to sell something when your in a suit (mind you I was a manager at the time). Your dress goes along way for creditability.
You can call it prejudices or whatever. But the fact remains that business has a culture. And being sucessful to your customers means dressing and playing a part of that culture. You have to sell yourself to make yourself sucessful.
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
Only if that's all you have to offer. Being a successful salesman requires that you be flexible enough to sell your wares to the customer in front of you.
I've done both retail AND business sales. I was able to put together deals while wearing black leather work boots, a pony tail AND a full beard. If you can show a customer why product X is better than
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Professionalism" is a perception. It's how others perceive you. Yes, it's the perception of your work ethic, and the perception of your attitude, but it has just as much to do with the perception of your appearance, and this inclu
Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)
Definitely dreadlocks are out. If you want to be a member of that culture, then fine, go do it. But don't be surprised when people treat you like a member of that culture.
If you are black, you better be as Huxtable as it can get, buddy.
Imagine that. If someone is black and they dress and behave in a civilized (i.e., "Huxtable") manner, then racism becomes a non-issue. What do you suppose that means?
It means that 90% of racism is culture, not skin color. And I have absolutely no problem with rejecting someone out on their ass based on their (or lack of) culture.
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some cultures are different and not inferior. Other culture are definitely inferior. I'm sorry, but the culture of violence, anti-intellectualism and mysogynism practiced by certain members of the rap community is inferior and utter crap. Should I respect certain Muslim countries when the suppress women? Should I respect certain other cultures that practice child slavery? Should I respect certain African cultures that practice female circumcision?
Not all cultures are morally equivalent.
Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Interesting)
I find Japanese culture neither inferior nor superior overall (though it is certainly alien). Exactly how does that fit your premise that all cultures are supposed to conflict? I can find something interesting, but different, without passing a judgment on it.
functionality (Score:3, Interesting)
The foreskin also has estrogen sensors. (you can feel the estrogen, like heat/cold/pressure/etc.) No other part of the human body has this feature.
Do you find it odd that very few adults with foreskins want to be circumcised? In any case, one ought to let a person choose for himself if he likes to be sexually mut
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly what makes you think that there is some correlation between being freaky and being "smart, thoughtful and talented"?
Dunno about you, but I've seen in my life a reverse correlation. People who dress and look freaky do it for a reason -- because they ARE freaky. They have so little to offer the world that they only way they can get themselves noticed is by changing themselves ph
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, I did not say there was a correlation between being smart and being freaky. Smart people come in many shapes and sizes.
Otherwise, I think you're totally wrong and lack real experience of diverse people. For example, I used to spend time with a bunch of goths. Looking at them with an uninformed eye, you'd just think they were a bunch of freaks, but most of them were university students and have gone on to do post graduate work, work with leading edge companies, and so on. I've had numerous other experiences of people who were "freaks," but were very smart freaks and have become very successful. Some of them dropped the unusual clothing and styles, some of them didn't. It doesn't have much to do with their success unless they work in a really conformant industry (which wouldn't attract them in the first place).
Maybe you just live in a place where the culture won't accept this and works against people who are different, but the smart people I know are of all races and interests, and actively promote their differences and beliefs, and it rarely works against them.
And it's not a matter of "need," it's a matter of want. I'm not desperate, are you?
And what the --- does dressing differently have to do with "being clean?" I think you have a very bizarre picture of diverse people.
I suspect your definition of success has very little to really achieving anything other than a generic "successful career," which is something anyone can do. Being really innovative, effecting meaningful change, being part of healthy communities, etc, has nothing to do with how you dress.
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Informative)
I live in Southern California. Believe me, I have plenty of experience with "diverse" people.
I'm not implying that freaky people can't be productive citizens or whatever. Heck, one of my best friends growing up was 9-on-a-scale-of-10 bearded geek with all the stereotypical annoying personality flaws you can name. And when I worked with him once, I said "never again", even though he was a smart guy.
My point is that there
Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with you in many respects... such dress is often just a uniform of a different sort for some people... but how you dress is ultimately an aesthetic choice any way you slice it, you're "conforming" to some image that has been done before, whether it's goth, punk, hippy, corporate suit, GQ... I happen to like baggy (not as baggy as ten years ago, but still loose and large) clothes. Very comfortable. I often wear a baseball cap. Backwards, even. I save my more fitting clothes for buisness appointments, out of self-preservation, but I do feel it's dumb to have to do that. Realistically or not, clothing does not in any meaningful way define an individual. It's just that a large number of ignorant people act like it does.
Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Informative)
I keep my hair long because short hair requires too much maintenance.
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
You know, that whole metrosexual thing doesn't exist. Nobody wants to be a suave pretty boy.
Everyone wants to be a freak, and wear sandals and have long ponytail hair. Everybody, seriously, look it up. Everybody was like, "man, it sucks that I have to wear a suit in business." Nobody ever says, "Gee, this suit makes me feel like a powerful and attractive person" and means it. They're
Everyone is in a subculture. (Score:4, Interesting)
I personally think the European underground techno scene is a lot of fun. I really enjoy dancing all night on weekends. To an extent I look the part. But this doesn't keep me from being one of the lead developers in the LinuxLab at one of Europe's largest software companies.
Why don't I take on the appearance that's typical for the European IT industry? Well, honestly, I'm not that far from the default, though I do have hair down past my shoulders and tend to have kind of a grunge-nouveau look. But the more important thing is that I'm established within my field. I feel like my accomplishments speak for themselves and if you're not the sort of employer that's willing to look past my long hair to the long list of cool things on my resume, then you're not the sort of company that I want to work for. It is in a sense a statement -- it's a statement saying, "I'm good at what I do. I'm not going to be a cookie cutter cog in the corporate environment. You do need to have some flexibility, but if you're cool with that, then I can probably do good things for you."
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, if you don't mind losing the occasional deal to the fact that the person you're talking can't get past your grooming, then no biggie, but if you're a CEO, and that 'occasional deal' can be worth millions of dollars, then (if you're worth your salt), you're gonna make sure that you're dressed to whatever your client is expecting.
This one time I had two job interviews the same afternoon. One at a unive
Re:Yeah... (Score:3)
Meat is evolutionarily preferred, because any adverse health effects from it are put off until most us are long past our child-bearing/raising years. Meat is a very efficient protein source for those animals with the ability to process it.
Evolution isn't about living long... it's just about living enough to procreate. From this perspective, once you quit punching out kids, what happens to you is largely irrelevant.
With that said, although I differ from you in that enjoy vegetables as well, I love a go
Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)
I predict that a lot of the nutritional bias against meat will turn out to be completely wrong in the future.
I also think you're making the mistake of believe that evolution has some kind of purpose or that it is intelligent. Evolution is not necessarily smart. It creates far more "bad" mutations than it does "good" ones. It's just that we only see the "good" mutations because they are the ones that survive. You're also placing somewhat too much emphasis on nutrition as the means to survival when there are many other factors to survival...including the bodies ability to store and process food energy, the bodies hunting and gathering faculties, mental capacities, and the species social behaviors. I'd say that human survival has been much more a function of their ability to communicate in depth with each other as it has been with the types of food they eat. We are after all, one of the weakest species out there compared to those with similar weight (without our big brains, we'd be dead). In any case, almost every species has become extinct historically because the species's evolutionary progress was not able to adapt quickly enough to their changing enviornment (or they didn't have the brain capacity to evaluate and alter behavior that was inevitably destructive). I think human survival henceforth will largely depend upon our ability to make better choices in light of our scientific discoveries (ie, by marginalizing dangerous religious dogma, eating healthier plant based foods, and continuing to advance technologies that can make life easier and safer).
You surely can't deny that our culture has become more glutonous and obese BECAUSE of processed foods and meats served at fast food restaurants. And you also can't deny that obesity and high cholestrol levels leads to diabetes, heart disease, cancer, lupis and countless other ailments. This is not optimal anymore than lung cancer caused by smoking is optimal. Evolution, in this context, is wrong (if it is evolution's fault). It doesn't matter if you think meat tastes "soooooooooooo" much better than veggies. Science can prove that a diet based on cold-water fish and plants is far less destructive to your body than one based on fowl and red-meat. The meat eater in general may become bigger and stronger (if he doesn't eat lots of tofu or fish), but in human terms...is that necessary? Isn't the human's claim to fame our mental capacities? By eating red-meat in light of our scientific knowledge that it is not healthy, you are choosing not to benefit from the human's evolutionary strength...our ability to reason.
Re:Ridiculous (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
You are mistaking professionalism with prejudice.
If you are someone who is not willing to come dressed clean for your job, how would I know you are willing to do a lot of other things for your job? And if you are not even ready to dress to accomodate your employer, how would I know you would be able to design stuff that would accomodate others' needs?
Case in point - anecdotal evidence at best, of course - I've noticed that amongst software developers, the worst UI and human factors folks are the pony-tailed, jeans and sandals folks. Why? Because these are the ones that tend to think that somehow, "their way" is the right way. The kind that recommend *nix and Macs rather than work with what they have and improve what they've been paid to improve upon.
As another poster pointed out, there is little correlation between the "ragged, unshaven, jeans and sandals" look and a techie genius. Oh, sure, there are a few that are both, but that does not make every idiot in jeans and a ponytail a techie genius. Most tend to be wannabes, and between someone who would rather not care about what they wear but rather what they do, the choice is obvious.
Appearance matters. Now just in how others perceive of you, but also in how you perceive yourself. Good appearance not only boosts your confidence, it also tends to project you as a more socially skilled, accomodating person. Your job is not merely to churn out lines of code, at some level, you are doing something to accomodate others' needs and you are interacting with end users, customers and clients.
In that light, your appearance goes a long way on how your company would be projected to the outside world. Don't believe me? Dress like a homeless person and go to the bank, and dress in a suit and go to the bank. Or a bar. Or a restaurant. You'll notice the difference.
Oh, you don't have to like it, but sadly, accomodating it tends to make your life easier.
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
A teen, in spiky blue hair with a bolt through his nose and tons of other piercings in beatup old all black clothes who demands you ignore their appearance and treat them just like everyone else.
If appereance doesn't matter (his point, thus I should treat him just like the guy wearing the suit), then what is the point of dressing that way? It makes a statement. And if you choose to make that statement, then you have to understand other people will react to your statement. You can't make a statement and demand it is ignored at the same time.
The article makes perfect sense to me. If you are a programmer at home, or you are working down in the bowels of the building running the network in the crampt hot server room, it makes sense you may want to dress comfortably.
But if you want to consult, or if you have to deal with anyone (management, middle management, customers, etc) then you need to dress appropriatly.
To take it out of context, let's have another example. Let's say you want to buy a BMW. So you go to the dealership. Now who are you more likely to trust as a knowledgeable salesperson? A woman in a nice suit, or a women in a old jogging uniform?
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Interesting)
If appereance doesn't matter (his point, thus I should treat him just like the guy wearing the suit), then what is the point of dressing that way? It makes a statement. And if you choose to make that statement, then you have to understand other people will react to your statement. You can't make a statement and de
Re:Because they like that style? (Score:3, Insightful)
You statement by wearing something may be as simple as "Look at me" or as complex as "I'm a smart business woman bucking for a promotion." It may say "Stare at my chest and think I'm sexy" or it may say "I'm trendy and hip." It could be "I'm rich and ostentatious" or "Don't notice me, I just want to blend in."
But make no mistake, any fashion is a statement.
So to dress one way and be mad at people for taking the hint you're sending. That is one of those things that really annoys me.
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3)
Sadly, yes. Well, maybe not. But a "clean cut" appearance will help you at least get your foot on the door.
But once your rep has been established (say, you are well regarded in the industry or your particular field), appearance will not matter much. But before that, showing up for a job interview with a long hair that hasn't been washed for 5 days might be held against you.
Personally, I believe that even if you don't spend face time with customers, if y
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
I never used to dress up for anything. Well, weddings and funerals, but only if I really liked the people involved, and sometimes not even then. I never really thought about it.
The latest job I'm working at came with a big pay bump and a significant dress code. I don't think I ever saw it in writing, but it's just clear: you don't come into the office without a long-sleeve collared shirt and dress pants, and some sort of shoes that have seen the business end of a horsehair brush and some Kiwi.
Anyway, I found since I started working there that when I'm 'dressed for work' and go out into the world, the level of service and attention I receive is pretty significantly different from what I was used to. In fact I've tested it a few times; gone to the same restaurant a few times wearing work clothes, then gone a few times in a pair of cargos and a t-shirt, just to see what happens. People are politer, service is faster, I get called "sir" a lot more...it's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable.
Unlike your skin color -- which I don't believe in judging people by, as they have no control over it -- you choose what you put on every morning. You can choose to look like pretty much anything you want (within the bounds of the clothing you can afford); and other people are going to judge you based on that implicit choice. When I see someone who looks like a slob, I don't feel bad judging them, because they chose to look that way. If you roll out of bed, put on the first articles of clothing that you find on your floor, and go with it, that's fine -- but don't say you weren't warned when your glass doesn't get refilled at a restaurant as fast as the guy in a suit's does. You knew, or should have known, what you were getting into when you decided to go out like that.
My experiences are probably region-specific; the treatment I might have gotten in Southern California might have been different (I don't know, never having been there and having little interest in going -- too hot for my taste). But in an area filled with white-collar corporate and government types, and businesses that cater to them, if you want to be taken seriously it's pretty obvious how you want to present yourself.
Having been on both sides of the issue now, I think there's a lot to be said to matching your dress and other aspects of your personal image (hair, accessories, etc.) to the impression you want to create. And on the corporate level, I think it's pretty fair to want to create dress codes that match the kind of business and team you want to build. And if you're selling something -- as a whole lot of OSS developers effectively are, whether they realize it or not -- to matching your appearance to your client or intended buyer.
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
-matthew
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Interesting)
I have never taken advice from anyone on Slashdot, because as we all know, every single one of us is a self-righteous prick.
But, I am going to follow your advice. As soon as I finish this post, I am going to get off my ass and go iron my clothes. I am giving a presentation today, and I was thinking that my clothes ('business casual' is my usual form of dress) were fine just coming out of the dryer.
I am going to take that extra step, and actually iron my shirt and pants. Beca
Re:"sandal and ponytail set" vs. "suit and tie" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"sandal and ponytail set" vs. "suit and tie" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)
Think about it, by hiring you they are discriminating against every other candidate. By giving you a work task that you are best suited for, they are discriminating against everyone else who is not as suited for it.
Do you really think they should just hire any random joe of the street? Or should they do a bit if discrimination and determine who is best for the job.
Of course, the sort of discrimination you are talking about is the illegal sort, the common ones being race, religion, national origin, sex, etc... no where on there will you see long hair, nor would a case where your religion requires long hare go anywhere.
Re:If you hired a plumber (Score:5, Funny)
"Let him in, I'm expecting him", your partner yells to you from the bathroom as you're heading out the door....
chicken or egg (Score:5, Insightful)
Eventually I think linux and OSS will take hold. I agree with the articles thesis: uptake of OSS (and, for the record, ANYTHING) is affected (negatively in this case) by sandals and ponytails.
In my long career pathetically ended after 21 years by an unfortunate "right-sizing" (let's get rid of the 20% MOST expensive employees in IT, but make sure to get rid of some of the kids too so we don't get sued...), I conducted an ongoing rant/argument/rage/discussion with my best friend at work about the impact of dress. Bob (not her real name) insisted not only are others impacted by your appearance and demeanor, but your very own work and feelings about yourself change based on your dress.
Being a long-haired sandaled techie I disagreed. It took Bob about fifteen years to win me over. I get it now, maybe a bit too late, but it does matter.
For doubters, read Robert Malloy's book [amazon.com]. I love and hate this book. It's hard to dispute empirical research... you dress for your audience or risk losing them.
Still I like to wear my rose-colored glasses and think good conquers evil eventually, and still hold hope someday linux along with OSS gains the purchase it needs to be a viable and dominant market force unto itself (it already passes the viable test...).
As an aside: this does take an interesting turn when you consider that the "dress code" for "good tech" is oxymoronic, i.e., while it is true business leaders and decision makers like/prefer business dress and decorum from people they meet and strike deals with, at the same time it's a time-honored tradition that the most savvy and high-octane techies wear cutoffs, sandals, t-shirts (that probably say "fuck you" in some obfuscated way), and piercings. Go figure. (From my own personal experience, I would add, I found little correlation with the raggedy techie look and competence and would even submit many less competent techies cultivated the look as an offset to their less-than-great skills.)
And, now I'm off to install the new Firefox /. extension (God Bless OSS)
Re:chicken or egg (Score:5, Interesting)
While that can be a positive correlation for some folks, for many of us it is a negative correlation. The dressier the environment, the less relaxed I feel and the less I am able to concentrate on producing high quality product.
But I have noticed a large positive correlation here in the stuffy Midwest between dress and pay. My previous job was in IT at an airline. I took a 20K/year pay cut just so I could wear blue jeans and sandles. Fuck that business casual crap.
Re:chicken or egg (Score:3, Interesting)
Business casual is an oxymoron if I've ever heard it. The only CEO you're going to see coming into the office without a suit is Steve Jobs. The concept of dress casual came about in the 90's as a way to immediately distinguish the management from the unwashed masses of workers. In the 80's, the president of the company didn't look any different than the receptionist. I did a paper on this in 98.
Re:chicken or egg (Score:4, Funny)
IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:5, Interesting)
So the fundamental problem, if there really is a real problem behind the article, is that the wrong people are speaking to each other. If you're trying to make an OSS business case to the business-types, then yeah you need a business-type person dressed in business-type clothing to do the talking. If you aren't a for-profit organization who can hire such a person to do the talking for you, then why do you give a fuck if the business types listen or not? The techies will listen to you, and you'll get in like most OSS has gotten in -- via the back door in the server room. If you are a for-profit, then why do you need a cnet article to tell you to "dress for success" and hire a marketing person instead of sending your be-sandled techies out into the field?
I don't know, this whole thing smacks of misdirection. He says it's the poor dress code that's causing the slow adoption, but then makes it sound more like it's politics and "IT leadership" (interpreted to mean some kind of management, shouldn't be wearing sandals) that are to blame. It sounds to me like the real reasons for the slow adoption of OSS have nothing to do with "sandals and ponytails", and "OMG RMS dresses looks like a dirty hippy!" is just an excuse.
Re:IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are Two truths to attire in the workplace if you are never seen by the customers.
Restrictive dress codes stem from new CEO or other leadership trying to prove they can control people and getting their personal high from doing it. Dress at work has NOTHING to do with performance and "professionalism" IN fact I code best in my ratty jeans and the "SHUT UP! I'm coding." on the back T-shirt. I remember one really good IT guy from 2 years ago when we became Comcast was verbally reprimanded by a upper level exec for not being clean shaven. The man just worked all night getting the Jackass exec's equipment working... All he said was, "so fire me. do me a favor so I do not have to work with assholes like you." The exec tried to fire him, the regional VP put the exec in his place and made him apologize to the IT guy... He left 9 months later because he saw the downward drain sprial before everyone else did.. now the rest of us rats are jumping ship.
Second, It's about percieved professionalism. Too many MBA's are programmed at college that expensive clothes make you successful and try to encourage the staff to do likewise. Which is great if the exec's will give everyone a 30% raise so they can afford to dress like him. It's a "clone" ideal. Just look at the sales department.... they look like fricking clones because they think they have to.... now look at the most sucessful sales people, they are different, get in trouble with the boss regularly but will not be fired because they out sell the other sales people 3 to 1.
It's all about the fact that most business professionals really do not have a clue to how to really manage people. They can run numbers and repeat verbatium all the BullShit(tm) they teach them at business college but none of them have a clue how to manage people and get the most out of their workforce. It boggles the mind how clueless corperate managers really are when it comes to motivating their employees.
(Hint: Do EVERYTHING to increase morale in any little way. if you make high 5 figures or 6 figures then you buy the office donuts every week out of your pocket will go far. You buy lunches for your people once in a while, throw them bones, etc... Either business majors are morons or the professors are morons because I can not believe they do not teach this stuff in college.)
Re:IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:4, Interesting)
The funny thing was my boss hated it, because they'd look at me if he told them to go do something, waiting for me to okay it.
Re:IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, It's about percieved professionalism
There are so many bullshit posts in this thread from anti-dressup types that I decided to pick one near the top. Don't take it personally, I just picked the first self-important, self-proclaimed geek who was full of crap.
It's not about 'professionalism' at all. It's as much about professionalism from the busniess side as it is about comfort from the geek side (t-shirts and cutoffs aren't very comfortable compared to well-made, ironed clothing). It's about laziness. They see you as too lazy to make yourself look good, and let's face it you (and I) are too lazy to do the work. Business clothes aren't any more expensive than jeans, and if you don't count trade show handouts, button down shirts can be had for the same price as a printed tee. But you have to iron, and wash properly, and button, and groom. You'd rather pull on whatever is lying around and go about your day. That speaks to your attitude. There are things you are going to decide aren't worth your time, and your clothes show it. Subconsionsly, everybody else knows it too.
Ok, so it pisses your off when you have a dress code. Dress codes *are* stupid for grown adults. Choosing to dress nicer does make a difference though. I still can't get myself to do it every day, but it's obvious the way people's attitudes change towards you when you put in the effort. It also makes you feel better about yourself once you get over the rightous rebel bullshit. Also, a nice cotton button down with a color (even if it's plaid) and some ironed pants are more comfortable than jeans and a crappy big-seamed tee with huge silk-screening any day.
Semi-related, since hair matters a bit less as long as it's washed and combed... Also only a subset of techies are culprits: Cut off the damned pony tail when the hair has fallen out on top already. You look like an idiot, and combined with the smell of your t-shirt, it's why you never get laid.
Re:IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:3, Insightful)
When I hire someone (I'm a software engineer / team lead), I want him or her to have things that they consider to not be worth their time! I want them to spend their effort on what is worth their (and my) time. I want them to be studied, creative, productive, committed to qual
Re:IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:3, Insightful)
I had to wear "smart office-wear" for my sixth-form college a couple of years back, and that came out over £100. Fucking elitist school, but the best in the area. Worth the sacrifice, but for the rest of my life I'll always look back on it with an element of shame because of the sheer elitism of it. Not that that's applicable to business and IT jobs, but the prices are, at least over her
Re:IBM figured this out in the 90s. (Score:3, Insightful)
Programmers/geeks ARE SUPPOSED TO BE lazy, by definition. Otherwise why would we write programs at all to do things for us?
Dressing is not about 'look formal' rather than 'comfort' and 'practicality'. I'd never employ a programmer who prefers to wear a suit, because it gives one sign: "this guy prefers to do things the less practical and efficient way".
Re:chicken or egg (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:chicken or egg (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it does. However, trying to say to a Firefox coder that it would take up less space on a tab and be more useful if the Favicon of a tab would alternate with the close tab control when you hovered over the tab. AdiumX on Mac OS X already does this for tabbed chatting. Well, I got a screenful of how the way the close tab control disappears when the tabs get crowded (except the current tab) is somehow better because of consistency.
That's just one real life example. When people with a sense of aesthetic try to get involved in most OSS projects, you get drowned out by the guys who think there's nothing wrong with their code if it doesn't have bugs.
I hope everyone remember Firefox only exists because someone on the Mozilla team thought the interface for Mozilla looked like ass.
The whole argument about suits vs. sandals really is that people without a sense of aesthetic refuse to admit it.
Perfectly legal social engineering (Score:5, Insightful)
The key point is respect, by dressing up I'm showing in a rather painless way that I can meet managers or business types halfway and can effectively interface with them. If I'm dressed sharper than they are I've beaten them at their own game and have a point in may favor immediately. It makes them considerably more receptive to my non-negotable issues.
On the other hand folks who made a point of not being able to "clean up well" tend to be rubbing their arrogance in peoples faces. They do it because they assume that they can get away with it because of their awesome skills. Problem is, skills change, and everybody loves to undermine an arrogant bastard, especially when they hand you shovels. Worse yet, they don't see it coming because they aren't able to collect intelligence dressed like that.
Haberdashery is a form of legal social engineering which is fun and easy to practice.
Re:Response from a long-haired, bearded techie ... (Score:5, Insightful)
At 37, I haven't suffered any harm from this attitude yet
Or you're too conceited to have noticed.I would not work with you based on that comment.
-nB
Re:Response from a long-haired, bearded techie ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly the ignorant elitist attitude that will place you near the top of the list when it's time to lay a few people off. Fact of the matter is that management needs tech and tech needs management, but neither needs arrogant know-it-alls like you.
At 37, I haven't suffered any harm from this attitude yet.
Time is not on your side. A more polite and still smart and pleasant to be around kid will soon replace you. Sure they will need some training and education that comes with experience, but the benefits to the management, that you are so quick to insult, of this new fresh blood out weigh your value.
Re:Response from a long-haired, bearded techie ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just based on this post, there's no way you could do the suit's job in a million years.
Re:Response from a long-haired, bearded techie ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, I'm a pretty decent guy. I get along well with the people I work with, and for the most part always have, in a number of different settings (the military, corporate IT, and now academia.) And although of course I've had to do things I disagreed with, for the most part, when I felt strongly about an issue, I was able to bring management around to my point of view through reasoned discussion.
My original post, as only one other poster seems to have noticed, was directed at a specific type of manager -- the type who automatically dismisses people who don't dress the way he does, who refuses to recognize that for the most part (not always, certainly, but that's the way to bet) casual dress is just as much a mark of the competent techie as a sharp suit is of the competent businessman, who honestly believes that Microsoft is better than F/OSS because Bill Gates wears a suit and Richard Stallman doesn't. And who, not incidentally, inevitably ends up driving competent tech people away from his organizations because smart people refuse to put up with his crap.
People like that are really just as lacking in social skills as the stereotypical smelly geek; but (as with smelly geeks, come to think of it) there are a lot of them, and they congregate in groups where their antisocial behavior is not only accepted but encouraged, and they reinforce each other. Unfortunately, because they are primarily interested in telling people what to do rather than actually doing anything useful themselves, they tend to acquire enough power to make other people's lives miserable.
Believe it or not, I don't prejudge people in suits; I deal with them exactly as I do everyone else, and that's pretty well. However, I refuse to deal nicely with anyone who does not extend me the same courtesy.
(Oh yeah -- I'm obviously not a full-time writer, and never have been except for a brief period a number of years ago. The truth is, making a living from writing is damned rare. Which is too bad, but so it goes.)
Re:chicken or egg (Score:5, Insightful)
You see, Steve Jobs is dressing for his audience: creative people. You know, artists, visual designers, people in Hollyweird. All those phreaks who consider themselves to be outside of the rat-race.
What? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
Thats so Jesus.
Erm... (Score:5, Funny)
How did Microsoft become so successful, then?
Re:Erm... (Score:4, Funny)
They had actual _girls_ in there!
Well ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. Story is bunk (Score:3)
He sees a problem, I see a competitive advantage (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, people who don't care whether you wear sandles, have a ponytail, are black, white, asian, a woman, or whatever, will come out ahead, because they'll pick stuff that is best, rather than looking to see if it wears Armani suits.
Re:He sees a problem, I see a competitive advantag (Score:3, Informative)
Let's not forget that all of those C-level types currently on trial were very well dressed . . .
Re:He sees a problem, I see a competitive advantag (Score:5, Insightful)
If only people were that objective.
The truth is that, as a salesman, you have to play to your audience and different audiences have different requirements - in essence you sell yourself along with a product. This doesn't always mean a suit, but you are conforming yourself to your audience.
If a business suit might level the playing field where your potential clients take you that much more seriously, while someone who shows up in stained T-shirk and slack will have to have a product that is that much more better to be taken seriously, why even risk it?
You see it everyday, in how consumers pick products. Usually, lets say in electronics, the more polished products get more serious consideration. Something that looks slapped together or superficialy cheap/chintzy is either not taken seriously or has to be sold cheaper - even if the functionality is better.
If you really like to believe that people are so objective to look past the superficial, I suggest you put some research into "packaging..."
A great disturbance in fashion (Score:2, Funny)
Never judge a book (Score:2)
Never judge a book by its cover. Didn't these guys pay attention to their grandmas?
By that measure... (Score:2, Funny)
That's not the problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Some of us feel that being proficient at your job and being comfortable are much more important than being a shortsighted, uninformed asshole in a fancy monkey suit.
The problem is on THEIR side.
Re:That's not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
That's because you're a blue collar worker. You're hired help. You're not viewed any differently by companies than the guy that comes to fix the garbage disposal or the guy that brings the water coolers.
You deal with the "little people" of a company. The ones whose job is going to India tomorrow. What president of a company cares if they like what you're wearing? He's never going to see you.
You're not an executive so your point is moot. The article is about executives at companies having to deal with the pony tail and sandals crowd. NOT Charlie Cubicle.
Re:That's not the problem (Score:4, Interesting)
On the one hand, I very much like the idea that perhaps dressing as YOU feel comfortable could strike some sort of blow for a meritocracy. That is, if it makes just a few people stop and re-evaluate their set of assumptions about "people with piercings" or what have you... it may make some beneficial changes. Perhaps encourage more people to look at substance instead of image. and in the meantime, I get to look the why I like to look.
On the other hand, if it spooks someone, it could cost me and my biz a whole lotta bread. And while I like my nosering, I wouldn't walk out and pay $5000 to have one, and I'm not sure I'm willing to risk that (or more, or less) simply for a fashion accessory which isn't ultimately all that important.
But, maybe that's the kind of thinking that allows image-based evaluations to continue on a wide scale?
I still don't know. I have no concrete evidence that when I did have one, that it ever cost me, or my previous employer a project. but what if, what if...
Richard Reid-Stallman (Score:5, Funny)
Messiah figures don't work for software. [vlsm.org]
Linux + Business Suits = Success.
Re:Richard Reid-Stallman (Score:5, Insightful)
Without GNU/GPL/FSF/etc would there even be a credible OSS solution for the business world to consider?
Funny.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I understand that by dressing like the stuffed suits would make me more appealing to them, but I don't care about them. They need me more than I need them. I'll always be able to find tech work somewhere. They won't always be able to find a lot of techies to work for them. The sooner they get over themselves and their dress code ideas, the better, for realities sake.
Re:Funny.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Excellent point. I also think we need to look more deeply into the reasons why opensource people refuse to wear suits and the like. We tend to like openness and honesty, and therefore we have a problem with those who hide behind buzzwords and attire.
That's funny (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought it was the companies thinking they could replace their technical management with bean counters responsible for the slow uptake. Managers that think if IT gets on their nerves enough they can simply outsource them to India. Or the fact that many company IT departments are staffed with MCSE's who see every IT problem as a nail for the MSFT hammer.
And here all this time it was sandals and ponytails. Missed it by that much!
haha (Score:3, Interesting)
oddly enough (Score:5, Insightful)
there are plenty of suits involved in the OSS movement. but as he says at the end of the article, what got him to drop out of the fight was not the image of OSS but the constant barrage of attacks brought against him by those with the wherewhithal to do so - big business.
Oh, Give Me A Break! (Score:5, Interesting)
It's bullshit.
Besides, microsofties wear west coast developer attire too, just they don't let them make sales calls. Also, I know damn well what the Apple geeks wear, and it isn't suit and tie. I see them whenever I drive down the DeAnza Blvd in Cupertino. They are definitely ponytail compliant - although some of them their *only* hair is their ponytail, with nothing on top!
Depends on the environment (Score:3, Interesting)
As for myself, I'm hardly a shirt-and-tie person. I'm not sitting here with a kokanee shirt and shorts, but when your job often involves crawling under desks and in other various recesses where computer parts dwell, a white shirt and tie are hardly functional for the position at hand.
Ah, yes, becaue we all know... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, basicaly what the author of the original article is saying is the following:
open source + casual dress = no credibility regardless of the quality of work
open source + "professional" dress = complete credibility regardless of the quality of work
Someone needs to do a study on this. I'm fascinated by the attitiude that some people have that the design of the cotton on the outside of our skin somehow has a direct correlation on the ability for us to maintain our servers through open source. It must be some kind of intellectually stimulating chemical that is weaved into the fibers of "professional" clothing that we absorb through our skin whereas casual dress does the opposite.
The state of dress, casual or professional (Score:4, Interesting)
Slows Adoption of Everything! (Score:5, Funny)
There was also some strange government of people with ponytails and almost-sandals with the idea of "liberty or death" and "all men created equal".....
I can't remember if either of these things exist anymore, but if they do, I bet the people in them are OK with ponytails and sandals.
Power to the People (Score:3, Funny)
...sometimes (Score:5, Interesting)
Sometimes dressing in less "professional" apparel can lose you a sale. Sometimes, it can gain you a sale. I know a lot of the sales guys are somewhat leery of dragging along scruffy looking geeks to business meetings, but from what I've seen it often works to convince businessmen of the credibility of tech. "Wow look at all those piercings, if the company lets him get away with that he must be brilliant!" This works well in smaller, more technical markets I imagine.
I also notice that the work environment at a company is one of the most important aspects in attracting really talented people. Smart people, who love what they do would rather dress like slobs, have free beer, and a ping-pong table than make an extra $20K a year. The environment is worth a lot to a person's quality of life. Now that does not mean just because a company is relaxed it has talented people, but if you are looking for extraordinary people, that is one very visible sign.
I also notice that given a relaxed or absent dress code, the clothing of choice widely varies. Some people prefer to wear a suit every day, even if they are just going to sit at a desk and code for 12 hours. Others will be wearing shirts with fake boobs attached. I have not noticed that either type tends to be more or less proficient.
I know I'm not the only one to have noticed this trend and I know it is something in some businessmen's minds when they are meeting with new partners, suppliers, or customers. The rule that a dress code will get you more sales is not universal and does not apply to all market segments. A dress code might get you more sales, right up till all your talent moves on and your more relaxed competitor starts to clobber you in head-to-head comparisons.
Re:...sometimes (Score:3, Interesting)
a lifetime or two ago I was in Sales. Not only Sales, but selling from an anglo country into Japan. Not only selling into Japan, but selling toy SOLDIERS into japan.
Games Workshop makes a table top war game / hobby product line. A very large english company that sells multinationally [including here in the USA]
Selling into a foreign country, like Japan (this was just around the tim
It's all about appearance (Score:5, Insightful)
Given a choice between a guy in a suit with a mediocre piece of software, and the guy in jeans that hasn't shaved for two days and smells of pizza with an amazing array of programs - they're going to take the suit. The marketdroids want to see success oozing from the vendor, not an air of dishevelment.
All in all, it's sad to see decisions based on quality of presentation as opposed to quality of product, but with few exceptions, that's the way it's always been - and probably always will be.
Shower. Shave. Buy some button up shirts and a pair of slacks. From my experience, this makes all the difference in the world. Like it or not - it's the way the game is played.
Re:It's all about appearance (Score:5, Interesting)
Shower. Shave. Buy some button up shirts and a pair of slacks. From my experience, this makes all the difference in the world. Like it or not - it's the way the game is played.
Funny, having worked at several successful software companies I've heard the phrase, "he wore a suit to the interview," used in a negative way more than once. Often your appearance does matter, but you need to tailor it to your audience. In some markets bringing along a sloppily dressed geek will instill in your potential customers a belief that your product must be advanced. In others, it is seen as a sign of a small player, not worth dealing with. Most customers expect a somewhat professional looking salesman, but in many cases they are happy to see "those geeky guys" if they tour the facilities or if someone comes out to install a few million dollars of high-tech gear for them.
As for the game, that isn't half of it. Knowing where the good strip clubs/bars/hookers/drugs are is more likely to get you sales than your dress, from what I've seen. I've seen us lose sales to people we were pounding into the ground in head-to-head comparisons, because the competition spent a week taking the purchaser out to strip clubs. The point is, sales is more than dress code, and lack of dress code may actually get you more sales in some markets.
De facto, not preference (Score:5, Informative)
Nowhere that I've seen in that article does he say that ponytails and sandals signify anything about the skills, attitude, or professionalism of the people in question.
He is talking about peoples' perceptions, and the need to be politically savvy when selling OSS to those same people.
Missing the point (Score:3, Insightful)
Quinn also blamed the leaders of technology departments for not communicating the benefits of open-source software to their businesses effectively.
He has another valid point here. Just look at the posts on Slashdot. It seems that many here think that posting insults and profanities makes them look smarter than they really are. Picture this in your head:
Slashdotter (S): Dude, you really should switch to Linux.
Business Guy (BG): Why should we need to do that? Every Dell we buy already comes with a copy of Windows.
S: M$ is an evil empire and they kick puppies.
BG: That MS sales guy sure seemed nice to me.
S: Only morons like you fall for their shit. I know this because I'm so smart.
BG: I don't see why I need to listen to someone that's insulting me but Windows run fine and all of my clients use Office.
S: OMG! It's motherfuckers like you and your idiot clients that enabled M$ to retain its power. You guys all need to fucking die because to are just too stupid. In fact, the sheer number of cuss words that I used just proves how smart I am.
Right for the wrong reasons (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, the corporate suits are not comfortable with OSS companies, because the folks in the OSS companies don't wear suits. But it's not actually because of the clothing, it's what the clothing implies. The lack of suits tells them that these are technical people in charge, not business people. The suits don't like dealing with technical people, because they don't really understand us. They feel more comfortable with people wearing suits, because people who wear suits are their kind of people.
I just love hearing from our C_Os about how we in development should do whatever the sales/marketing folks tell us, because "if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have jobs". Meanwhile, I'm sitting here thinking, well, what the heck would they sell if we weren't creating products?
Never mind the fact that the sales department has a very regular turnover, and the sales people themselves aren't anything special, just your average ex-fratboy business major who made it through four years of college with an average 0.8 BAC. Nobody blinks twice when they leave, they just replace them. Yet, the company is horrified that I ride a motorcycle, because of the possibility that I may get injured/killed and thus leave them with a serious hole to fill that requires very specialized knowledge.
Truth? They fear us. They know that they are a dime a dozen. Our entire sales department could get hit by a bus tomorrow, and it would set the company back a month at worst. If the engineering department walked out, the company would fold up like a wet kleenex, and would *never* recover.
Toscanini... (Score:3, Insightful)
The orchestra played in the space in Rockefeller Center currently used by Saturday Night Live. However, there was no audience present during the radio broadcasts, save for a handful of people not in the orchestra (radio engineers, NBC executives, perhaps a representative from the sponsors or two).
Despite this fact, every member of the orchestra wore a tuxedo, and Maestro Toscanini wore tails.
Radio. No audience. Formal dress.
The story has stuck with me ever since, and I'd often pondered the reason for this. Remember, this was back when even street dress for a professional musician was a suit, tie, and snazzy shoes. No "business casual" back then.
The best reasons I could determine for this were:
Personally, I'm inclined to judge a person's performance rather than their appearance. But even I can't help but think about appearance sometimes: if a vendor showed up to pitch my company while wearing shorts and a UCSC Banana Slugs t-shirt, my first thought would be "Jeez, he just doesn't care, does he?". The product or service would live or die on its merits, but my opinion of the salesman would be tainted by that first thought.
I think the bottom line is finding the appropriate level of casual/formal dress for the situation. The owner of the surf/skate shop might not mind if I showed up in shorts and sandals to install a POS system, but the funeral director probably would.
k.
Missing the point... (Score:4, Insightful)
Appearance is important, we cannot possibly invest the effort to get to know 'the real person' for everyone we meet. In order to function we need our sterotypes. Its a bit like justice - justice not only must be done, it must be seen to be done. Similarly, quality in service must be seen. Thats not to say everyone needs to be in a suit; but certainly if you are making a open source presentation to a large organisation you should have appropriate attire; or not bother at all.
Not bothering is fine of course - nobody is forcing you to advocate and sell OSS solutions, but if you are in that game, and you do care about getting that contract, then perhaps how you dress will impact your chances.
Gumma one break mon. (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, my response would be that if the clean cut, three piece suit set did more of the actual important work on the big projects, then they would be more visible and this would not be such a big problem.
Therefore, it is the clean cut, three piece suit set who are really holding back the uptake of Free Software in commercial environments.
Assuming what we did, what is wrong with the reasoning that followed?
all the best,
drew
--
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261 [ourmedia.org]
Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145 [ourmedia.org]
What is so magical about suits? (Score:3, Insightful)
Shady car salesmen wear suits. Drug kingpins wear suits. The heads of Enron wore suits.
A man in nice suits sent our military into Iraq after WMDs that weren't there.
The former thug leader of Iraq wore suits.
So what does a suit prove again?
Ah... the endless smallness of human minds (Score:3, Insightful)
1 Race.
2 Skin Colour.
3 Sex.
4 Sexual orientation.
5 Physical Disability.
7 Age.
However personal choice of attire seems to be amongst the last bastions of acceptable discrimination.
And just why is it that the "acceptable standard" is always based around the preferred attire of a fat, middle aged, white man with no discernible dress sense and who's probably spent one half of his life being dressed by his mother and the other half being dressed by his wife ?
(And now I'm off on a good rant) Have you seen the fat fools in their golf wear ? or in the utterly embarassing "casual wear" they occasionally wear on the rare "team building" events in the pub ? The mind simply boggles... but hey it that's what floats their boat more power to 'em. (yeah I know I'm sterotyping heavily here but this is the mindset we're dealing with...)
Personally I look forward to the day when the mindless majority wake up to the idea that the packaging is not the contents, that people are all different, and that this is a GOOD THING. Diversity breeds innovation. Conformity breeds stagnation. We need suit wearing, small minded, twits as much as we need poinytailed, sandal wearing geeks. The two should just learn to see the good points in each other and get along... Or have a war when us geeks will seriously kick the suits asses (after all who invents all the good weaponry ?)
And people wonder why aliens never bother landing... when most humans can't even cope with members of our own species who have a different taste in haircut or pants.
Pah.
Works both ways, too. (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't know what happened at most of 'em, but I later heard that, at one place, everybody was impressed by my tech prowess and wanted to hire me - except one key guy who was SO offended by my suit that he flat-out refused to work in