PS3 - Lateness With Linux? 364
ZombieRoboNinja writes "The New York Times is reporting that Sony's press conference has confirmed the delay of the PS3, which is now slated to come out in November. More interestingly, the article claims that PS3 will ship with a 60-gig hard drive, built-in network card, and Linux!" Serious stuff here, with Sony's shares falling on the delay confirmation. There was a lot more news handed out at the conference than just the delay. Next Generation has details from Ken Kutaragi's 10 Point Breakdown. From the NYT article: "'We were discussing selling it in September, and some even said put it out in July,' Mr. Kutaragi said. Some analysts were immediately skeptical of this explanation, saying Sony needed to get the console out as soon as possible to combat Microsoft's head start, and the expected release this year of Nintendo's next game console, Revolution. They said Sony may be trying to buy time to bring down the production cost of key components, particularly untested technologies like Blu-ray and Cell. While Mr. Kutaragi did not reveal a price on Wednesday, analysts say Sony will likely try to sell PlayStation 3 for about $500." Please see related links and commentary below for more coverage.
My two quick cents -- If they're not releasing in Japan until November, I find it highly unlikely they'll be releasing in the states until 2007. Previous PlayStation launches have always been staggered Japan first, U.S. second. I don't care if they say they're launching worldwide; At this point I think they're spinning to keep people happy.
- If they're not out in the U.S. until 2007, they'll probably be the last next-gen console to do so. So far Nintendo says it's on track to launch this year. Sony isn't getting finalized dev kits out until June. Even just with that metric on the table, Nintendo looks to be in a better position than Sony at the moment.
- At $500, there are going to be a lot of indifferent customers come March of '07. This will be especially true if, over a year after launch, Microsoft cuts the price of the 360 to coincide with the PS3 launch. If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy?
Article Access (Score:5, Interesting)
Also interesting is the component pricing [com.com] total that reveals why Sony will most likely have to take a loss of hundreds of dollars per console to remain competitive.
Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel? (Score:2)
If so, where can I download the modified Linux kernel?
Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel (Score:4, Funny)
If the drivers are all modules, I don't believe the source code has to be released. Obviously, Nvidia and ATI have never released the code to their modules. Another example off the top of my head is Broadcom and the b44 ethernet card module (that's the open source one, but they have a module that is closed source whose name I can't remember). Another tactic they might follow is Intel's, who releases the wireless drivers for their IPW series as open source, but keeps the firmware for the cards closed. This allows them to look good and at the same time protect their IP. I doubt you'll see much source code from Sony in light of the PSP debacle. Personally, I don't care what they do as long as I can run linux. The PS2 dev kits all ran linux on them. My friend set up Afterstep on his in an effort to pretend he was John Carmack running a NeXT box. I'll settle for E17, since by the time the PS3 is released, E17 will probably be stable and able to run Duke Nukem Forever with OpenGL acceleration.
And don't flame me for E17, I'm running it on my laptop.
Re:Article Access (Score:3, Insightful)
I wish this crap would die.
Those prices are so out of whack. For starters, blue ray will NOT cost $300/drive. That's insane. Sony owns the license agreements for it, and will be fabbing it themselves. No royalties and no middle man = the blue ray drive will cost next to nothing. Same with the cell processor: It may cost $230 to buy one of them, or even a thousand. What about when you buy 500,000? Or 2,000,000? Or, you agree to fabricate them yourselves, and then you're only paying for the blueprints
Re:Article Access (Score:3, Interesting)
But then again this is Slashdot so who cares about facts. I'm an actual PS3 and XBOX360 developer and I made a comment on the last PS3 article to refute someone who didn't know what they were talking about (using only publically available knowledge but stuff I still know to be true as a registered developer who has both systems on his
Re:Article Access (Score:4, Insightful)
Again, these ARE the actual costs for the parts themselves. To give you an example, a wafer might cost $10000 - it is a single piece of silicon crystal developed from molten silicon. Lets say you print about 400 chips on it. That means it costs you $25 just for the wafer alone. Meanwhile, only half the parts work, because a defects (dust, crystalline defects, and so on). Suddenly, that number goes to $50/part, just for the wafer cost alone. Add up everything else (chemicals, power, labor, etc) and it does mean your chips are going to cost $150.
Re:Article Access (Score:3, Informative)
I agree with you under most circumstances. But, perhaps in the case of sony, there's an exception.
1.) Dell has enormous flexability in the market. True. But Sony doesn't *need* flexiblilty for the PS3. There's only 1 PS3, and it's not end-user customizable. What they need is to be able to take one design, and ramp up production quickly and cheaply. You don't have to be horizontially integrated to do that - you need virtical integration. Sony is going to be perhaps buying, perhaps developing in house
Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:2)
link [southparkstudios.com]
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:5, Informative)
Not that animation in general isn't hard or time-consuming, or that the animators who work on South Park aren't talented, but South Park is fast and cheap to produce.
Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim (Score:5, Informative)
"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"
I can't believe there are still people trying to attribute Microsoft's stupid Toy Story graphics claim about the Xbox to Sony in 2006...
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:2)
The Xbox library is not all 8.5's and above...no doubt there were some real lemons. But buying Playstation games is a real crap-shoot. Once you get away from the obvious AAA titles, you have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a game that is worth even opening up the wrapper.
Sony is the king of console shovel-ware.
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:2)
And complaining about the wonders of sweat on basketball players: isn't that what the Emotion chip is supposed to be all about? To enable the PS3 to show all the detail of the characters expressions, like sweat for example? And yeah, it does make a difference, take a look at Fight Night 3 on the 360. No mo
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is, having more than one game machine and one company dominating the whole industry is a good thing. Having Playstation the MAIN console with everyone else distant competitors (like it has been so long) is a bad thing, having several powerful competitors is a good thing. Don't worry, Sony isn't out of the video game industry yet despite their screw ups, there are too many die hard Sony fanboys for the Playstation 3 to flop. But the good news is that the market will probably be split evenly between the large companies, instead of the Sony quasi-monopoly on consoles.
So, from a consumer perspective, what is there to worry about? If you have extra money to burn, or are impatient, or you could care less which one will be the "winner", buy a Xbox 360 now... or simply wait a few months until the Sony machine comes out, and decide then what is the best console. Why have loyalty to any company (they certainly aren't loyal to us)?
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft doesn't have to compete. It just waits for its competitors to shoot themselves in the foot and Microsoft wins by default.
Art of war (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Art of war (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:5, Informative)
When teaching things like economics as it applies to electronics, this should be a subject of focus.
Yes, the Gamecube sold more than the XBox360. But why?
We all know that the XBox 360 was a popular item. No one could keep it in stock. Microsoft somewhat shot themselves in the foot with lower production and guarenteed that this would happen.
But what if they had been able to meet demand? The only measure of demand we can measure is sales, and, as said, the "sold out" tag is misleading, as quantities are low, and certainly didn't meet expected social demand. If the 360 had the production numbers, would it have outsold the Gamecube?
Or would the Gamecube's price and library of games have outsold the 360, anyway? There are a couple different bundles you can pick up from any number of places; official bundles include the system, hook ups, controller, and one of the better games (Metroid Prime, Super Smash Bros, etc.) all for between $130 and $150. To even get just a 360 system, you have to shell out $300. If you want all the good stuff and a game, you have to lay down $450.
Or did production approx. meet demand, and the rest was just overhype?
Re:Will there be an emotion chip too? (Score:2, Interesting)
What a coincidence... (Score:3, Interesting)
Interesting coincidence, don't you think?
Re:What a coincidence... (Score:2)
But in this world it seems that we must make a choice with that.
If Linus had started with a double licence early on he wouldn't had the troubles convincing all developers, which are many, to go commercial.
But then he would have a lower developer interest at the start of the linux project just like the BSD's have.
I think if it werent for the protection for himself and the Linux project
Global Launch (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Global Launch (Score:2, Funny)
yay! another ps3 article! (Score:5, Funny)
Well well well... (Score:5, Funny)
Sincerely,
Slashdot
Re:Well well well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Which apps will it run? Will it be anything that will ADD to the experience?
Re:Well well well... (Score:4, Insightful)
They've done exactly the same as they did for the launch of the PS2 against the dreamcast. Lied about it's abilities: Check. Produced "real time footage" (Final fantasy cut scenes for the PS2 and we all know the PS3 debacle): Check. Lied about the release date: Check. I truly believe they knew all along it wasn't going to be released in "spring."
I remember confidently telling my girlfriend she was a fool for getting a dreamcast as the PS2 "will be so much better" and "they're releasing it real soon." The blood of the Dreamcast is on my stupid hands.
Fool me once Sony shame on you, fool me twice ....
They've been doing anything to put you off thinking about a dreamcast/xbox360. And with the root kit fiasco they are pretty muuch dead to me. They need to stop treating me like a moron and a pirate if they want my money.
It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony needs Linux on their console for the same reason they've needed it on the PS2: to dodge import taxes. I don't know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU if it's a general purpose computer, it doesn't get taxed the way toys do. And EU is a games and consoles market of the same order of magnitude as the USA (if marginally smaller), and twice as big as Japan. So being able to say "see, you can boot this CD on it and have a general purpose OS that makes it a general purpose computer" is gonna make Sony a _lot_ of money in dodged import taxes.
Even better, what this means is that it can be more competitive with Microsoft and Nintendo who chose not to dodge those taxes. Sony needs to take much less of a loss to give those a nasty price competition.
And as the final exhibit: notice how Sony never actually bothered marketting or even selling (more than theoretically) that Linux they've flaunted all along for the PS2. They _didn't_ really want you to play Tux Racer on their subsidized machine.
Think about it this way: they sell the consoles at a loss and make the money from games. Each console bought just to run Linux and troll Slashdot in Mozilla is for Sony just a loss. Each console that you run gnometris (Gnome's tetris clone) or kshisen on in Linux, instead of buying a game from Sony, is just a loss. It's not something they want you to do, but a nasty risk they're willing to take, in the hope that they'll lose less with that than they gain by dodging customs.
So basically, don't let that ego blind you. We nerds like to pretend that the world revolves around us, and Sony would bend over backwards to please Slashdot. In practice, Sony couldn't care less about Slashdot. It's just a business decision, in which Slashdot played _no_ role whatsoever.
Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper (Score:3, Informative)
Actually -- again, bearing in mind that I'm no lawyer or accountant -- the thing here is that for that kind of taxes, e.g., VAT, it's not that toys or video game machines alone get some extra-hi
Re:Well well well... (Score:3, Funny)
And you are....?
- Sony
Need a Linux for PSP (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Need a Linux for PSP (Score:2)
It would be in their best interest to keep people from using the hardware for other purposes.
Re:Need a Linux for PSP (Score:2)
Re:Need a Linux for PSP (Score:2)
Re:Need a Linux for PSP (Score:2)
It would slaughter the game makers.
PSP games are doing badly enough anyway. Look at the PSP shelves, it's mostly UMD movies, at least in the stores where I am.
Suddenly there's a homebrew kit, and people can load MAME or Z-SNES or something onto the PSP, along with hundreds of roms. Illegal, perhaps, but certainly not to be caught by Sony's protection.
I'd buy a PSP at that point,
Re:Need a Linux for PSP (Score:2)
Re:Need a Linux for PSP (Score:2)
Simultaneous Worldwide Launch (Score:4, Informative)
Until further details emerge, claims of a US '07 release appear to be unsubstantiated.
Re:Simultaneous Worldwide Launch (Score:5, Informative)
As with anything Sony, I will believe it when it sits on the shelf.
FUBAR summary....again (Score:5, Informative)
From TFTA (link to Ken Kutaragi's 10 Point Breakdown):
7. Kutaragi said that that the PS3 will require a hard drive, which will have a 60 GB capacity and support Linux OS. No word on if it will be included.
Oops.
--
Sig arrêt
Re:FUBAR summary....again (Score:2)
Re:FUBAR summary....again (Score:3, Interesting)
If you don't need a special 'Linux Kit' to run Linux on the thing, it hardly matters whether or not it's included. THAT is the question which must be answered.
Re:FUBAR summary....again (Score:2)
Good news (Score:3, Insightful)
Like I've always said (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd pay 800$ for a PS3 if it meant I could ssh to the thing and play with the cell processor or beam media to it or something.
If all I can do is play games then I wouldn't pay more than 200$ for it. Cuz at that point I'd just play my xbox1 out of spite.
Tom
Re:Like I've always said (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Like I've always said (Score:2)
True, but there are important differences between a hackable console and a computer. You get more bang for your buck in a console (at least when it comes to graphics) because the hardware is subsidized by the games. In addition, because the console is a fix platform, the game writers can squeeze more performance.
The fixed platform is also valuable because it makes every thing much simpler for
Re:Like I've always said (Score:2)
I wholeheartedly agree. The only way Sony might possibly get people to buy significant numbers of this PS3 thing at the prices that are kicked around most frequently is to make it a computer. A PS3 with a hard drive, high-speed networking, and Linux is a very reasonable device to use for all of the average person's computing needs. Linux with KDE or Gnome (plus a bunch of apps) on the PS3 should be plenty speedy, very reliable, and do everything most people want to do.
Put another way: There ain't no fuc
Re:Like I've always said (Score:2)
A spec like the PS3 for $500? Where can I get one of those?
Right now? Same place you can get a PS3.
will they do the smart thing? (Score:4, Insightful)
Will it have a memory stick slot so you can take your show straight from the PS3/PVR and put the on the PSP?
Any chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies so you don't have to buy two versions?
Just some ideas that could really help Sony do better. Of course what they really need to do is drop this DRM crap like a hot potato.
Re:will they do the smart thing? (Score:3, Interesting)
They will probably try the PVR thing again, but for less money. The unit almost assuredly is not coming with video capture hardware.
There is little to no
Re:will they do the smart thing? (Score:2)
This delay may have a silver lining... (Score:2)
The secret reason for the delay (Score:5, Funny)
Where do you think you're posting? (Score:3, Informative)
The one with Linux on it, obviously!
In all seriousness, that was a big factor in my personal decision to buy the
- NSLU2 [nslu2-linux.org] storage server
- TiVo [ptvupgrade.com]
- XBox [xbox-linux.org] (original)
Linux? (Score:2)
Re:Linux? (Score:2)
Interesting non-PS3 point in the article... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article... (Score:2)
Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article... (Score:2)
(Given that they're on memory stick, presumably, you just copy them from the CD onto the stick?)
Disadvantage: you need a memory stick with 1.2 GB of free space to fit all of Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy VII....
Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article... (Score:2)
Although, it would make a lot of sense for Sony to put the program out for free. This is a GREAT way to increase the sell of memory sticks (especially big ones!). I believe that Sony makes the memory sticks that the PSP uses...
Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article... (Score:3, Informative)
Launch without availabilty? (Score:2)
It convinces people who might otherwise buy a competing console to wait in hopes of actually getting their hands on a PS3.
It reassures investors and developers with an on-time launch
Long lines of people and inflated prices on E
Weird project managers at sony (Score:2)
It is obvious they are eager to stuff as many non-video-game related features and now buzzwords(Linux, DRM, Cell,Blu-Ray etc) into this mystical console. Gee, and we wonder why there are so many delays. With every new feature they want to stuff in,it's going to just
Blaze of Glory (Score:5, Interesting)
NetHack (Score:2)
Delay cause... (Score:2, Funny)
A large pinch of salt (Score:2)
Re:A large pinch of salt (Score:2)
How many do we need? (Score:2)
trouble in paradise (Score:2)
Sports: Plenty. College Hoops 2k6 is the best IMO.
Racing: PGR3.
FPS: C0D2 and GRAW.
RPG: Oblivion.
Adventure (dying genre unfortunately): Kameo.
The 360 is missing a MMORPG (in the works, probably won't do well anyhow) and a strategy game. The major genre's are covered.
with Halo3 and a price cut coinciding with the
the ADAM computer (Score:5, Interesting)
their numbers == DAMN SHORT SUPPLY (Score:2)
1) 1 million units manufactured per month
2) 6 million units available by the end of Q4 (march 07)
Assuming those numbers are right they are going to start manufacturing in October for the November release and their are going to be around 1 million units available world wide for the November launch.
Is it just me or does that seem REALLY DAMN low? 1 mill systems doesn't seem like enough for just the Japanese market, not to mention the Americas and Europ
Curious (Score:3, Interesting)
With their PSOnline service (or whatever they're calling it,) they could give low-brow development kits (or sell them for a small fee,) and all people to upload games to a server. Having a lot of free, smaller games would really add to the service.
It will be profitable (Score:2)
They may sell the console below their BOM cost, but I'm sure they will save 10's of millions by setting the terms of sales with the retailers.
Note, most retailers make substantial money simply charging slot, promotional fees, and any other fee they can dream up. That's why nearly all single products from a single vendor tend to vanish after
Something strange in all this... (Score:2)
All anyone is talking about is the unit itself and the various compo
Horray for Nintendo (Score:3, Insightful)
But the thing that this says to me is... Sony screwed up big time. Now I don't see why they didn't just do update the Blu-Ray driver later (like they did with the DVD driver in the PS2). Instead they delayed the launch.
Now Nintendo has a major leg up. I have been waiting for the Revolution and I think that it will do much better than the 'Cube did this generation. But now they will both launch around Christmas. Let's ignore the fan-boys and look at the people who want a new video game console. So little Billy wants a console. Do you...
So if we assume $60 games, that is $360 for a XBox with one game, $485 for a PS3 with one game, or $260 for a Rev with one game (assuming no pack-in). So for the price of a XBox, you can get a Revolution with about 3 games. For the price of the PS3, you can get the Revolution plus 5 games.
That will be a MAJOR plus to Nintendo, not counting all the other pluses (controller, backed library, etc). Look how Nintendo is doing in Japan with the DS. Nintendogs was HUGE here in the states, I know lots of little girls who got a DS just for that game. If Brain Training becomes big here too, wow. If they can do the same sort of thing with the Revolution, they could break out of their "slump" big time.
I can't wait for E3/GDC when we'll see more of all three systems.
Landscape same as ever (Score:3, Insightful)
We'll know more after GDC (Score:4, Informative)
This is the point where Sony has to make it clear to developers exactly what's coming out and when, or there will be very few games ready at launch.
So wait a week.
MS vs Sony? More likely, Sony vs Nintendo (Score:3, Interesting)
By then, the X360 will be "old" already. It's more likely that they will try to match with the Nintendo Revolution instead of trying to fight the X360. Simply because those 2 consoles will be the ones to share the XMas market for this year.
For the X360, you either already have it, you're going to buy it within 6 months or you don't care about it. Who's gonna get a 360 for XMas? Hardly anyone. It's "old" by then.
On the other hand, both the PS3 and the Rev are going to hit the market roughly around XMas this year. And usually people only buy ONE console per XMas, not both.
Maybe a troll (Score:3, Insightful)
The most that all three companies care about is your money, its the underlying current that differs. MS cares about the profit of their system while forcing you to have their desktop system to use all of the functions. Sony cares about the profit of their system while forcing you to give up your fair use rights in music and movies. Nintendo seems to be the biggest straight shooter of them all, they just want to make money (maybe I am just missing their subversion)
None of the three companies are doing ANYTHING here because they think it is the right thing to do, but rather because it suits their profit model in the long term
Re:$500? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, though, there are a good number of games for which the console controller are superior to a mouse and keyboard. No one released PC games that depend on a standardized controller because there isn't one that comes with them.
You won't see a Soulcaliber or a Dead or Alive for the PC. You won't see a console-style RPG for the PC which instead favors RPGs like Elder Scrolls and the Ultima series. PC racing games have always sucked, and so have the sports games.
I
Re:bzzt... wrong (Score:2)
While the wording does leave the loophole that it may be required for any meaningful use of the system but not present in the pack (like a memory card with the PS2), that would be a difficult thing to push to retail. It was bad enough when the Xbox 360 came out with the HD-less core pack which nobody wanted.
Re:bzzt... wrong (Score:2)
Re:bzzt... wrong (Score:2)
Re:Launch Date (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Bah Sony. Bah... (Score:3, Interesting)
Think about it though: shipping with Linux might just create a vector for undermining the DRM on the Blu-Ray HD movies playable on this console.
Face it: consumer electronics running Linux is a big neon "hack me" sign that you don't get with other proprietary consumer electronics operating systems.
Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile (Score:2)
Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the 1980s, most TVs were much smaller than what they sell today, and much lower quality. You had a lucky few with big screens (greater than 30"), a significantly larger slice with screens in the 20-30" range, and the majority of the population with screens ranging from 12-20".
It's absolutely amazing how times change. My computer monitors even going back to the mid-1990s dwarf my family's old 14" TV, and have much better sharpness, bandwidth and color fidelity. You can buy 27" TVs at Walmart for less than 150 bucks that have visual quality most of us could only wish for in the 80s.
So, it's no surprise that VHS was considered good in the 1980s, when you consider that the average TV of the era was tiny and crappy. The 1990s started the wave of cheaper, larger, higher-fidelity televisions that showed the limitations of VHS, and by the end of the decade the market was hungry for DVD.
Unfortunately, the market hasn't changed much since DVDs were introduced. Screen sizes are up a bit, but HDTV technology is still too expensive for your average Walmart buyer. Even if HDTV suddenly dropped to the price range of your average Walmart buyer, you'd still have to wait 5 years or so for a potential market to build up.
HD-DVD and Bluray are in a very similar position to Laserdisc...not a huge improvement over the cheaper alternative, and selling to a very limited market. When only 5-10% of the market even owns equipment good enough to tell the difference, and they have to shell out $500+ to experience it, you've got limited room for growth.
Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :) (Score:2)
Or it could mean Sony is delaying all manufacturing and taking the time to upgrade the manufacturing plants. It would certainly drop the cost of the PS3 if Sony was a
Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :) (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sony really dropped the ball here (Score:2, Insightful)
The fact that you haven't considered buying a Nintendo product in 10 years is exactly why they decided to make this available I would think.