eBay sellers Told to Include GST 271
noisymime writes "The Age is running a story on how The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has requested eBay Australia to enforce the inclusion of the GST on all sales/auctions. Previously this was recommended but not a requirement. Is this reasonable protection for buyers or simply a frustration for everyone? What about all the other sales and auction sites available to Australians?" Moreover, how will this apply to other countries with GSTs - or sales tax?
Yard Sales.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:3, Insightful)
In Australia that's exactly what you're required by law to do.
Tax system here is a goddamn joke.
(It's worse for land. You're charged income tax on the money you use to buy the land, stamp duty when you buy, land tax every year by the state government, and land rates by the local council every quarter. Then when you sell the property there's a vendor tax. If you've made any money by renting it out that's more income tax
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:2)
No different from here in the states, although selling land is a bit better deal as it is a capital gain (those rates are capped below the regular income tax rate
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:2)
step one move into said house
step two sell it and get a capital gains exception of up to $500,000
This is of course fraud if you havn't actually lived their for 2 of the last five years, but with co-operative renters (they will need to let you get some mail there) and low scruples (or the belief that taxes are actually the crime) you can juggle 2 homes and sell them with very little capital gains.
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:2)
Farmland purchased for the grand sum of $500/acre in the 50's is worth around $3k/acre today - which is a heck of a big gain if you've got more than 1 acre.
There are no capital gains exemptions for farmland so the entire gain is taxable.
Also, be careful with your juggling. As poor as the IRS's computers are, they do match 1099's and 1040's. And there are tax forms that do get filed with the sale of a home.
not in the USA, unless you are a business (Score:2)
i don't know what that means over there, but in the USA you do not have to pay tax if you are selling your own stuff. if you are running an online store or something it is a different story. if you sell an old laptop or a pair of skis then you, in theory, already paid any required possible tax on the item and do not have to again. i think if the item went up in value then you are m
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:5, Informative)
In Australia that's exactly what you're required by law to do.
No you are very wrong. You are only required to be registered for GST if you are using it as a form of income where it exceeds 50,000 AUD per annum.
If i want to sell my car privatly no GST needs to be paid.
If I sell cars for a living and sell less than $50,000 AUD per annum I will need an ABN but no GST needs to be paid. (Income tax on the profit does though!!)
If I sell lots of cars for a living (more than 50,000 AUD) I need to be registered for GST and pay GST on those cars regardless of source (although I can claim input tax credits).
Seeing as you obviously dont understand the tax system I suggest that you call the ATO or have a read of the publically available information [ato.gov.au]. Personally I found that they are very helpful with phone calls.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:3, Informative)
You'd make less of a fool of yourself if you didn't waffle about subjects that you clearly know nothing about.
These types of activities are specifically excluded from Australian Goods and Services Tax (GST). If you're selling something privately, its not your usual business, etc, etc, then you don't have to provide a tax invoice, collect GST, etc. If you're selling to a business, then that business is required by law to withhold 48.5% of their
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:2)
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
What part of the country are you living in? Where I live you'd be lucky to buy a doghouse for that much. I agree that the tax system needs to be overhauled but not at the expense of the rich. When you overtax the rich the rich find tax shelters overseas to hide their money. The middle class then picks up the slack and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay into a welfare
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
I'd be alright with that - you could by a nice acreage for less than that around here :)
But if he's talking about farmland, I'm curious if he would be talking about total price for each transaction, or by "unit" of land (each acre?). If it is the former, I would suspect that you'd see properties taking several transactions to change hands.
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
Here's my idea for property tax reform.
1) Eliminate all lower levels of property taxation.
2) Have a state property tax.
3) You either exempt the state's average home value or you do it by county. It would be best to do it by each county to be fair cause standards and costs of living can vary widely.
4) So perhaps $200k is your county's average home value. If you own a $800k parcel (business or residen
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
My state has three main sources of taxation. Sales tax, property tax, and the B&O tax. To add to the revenue, here is an idea I have. I'm not sure what it would statistically work out to be.
A special type of income tax that only affects you if your individual income exceeds like 5 times the state per capita income. Let us assume the state per capita income is $44k. So 5 times that would be $220k. We'd only tax the excess. If you earn $800k per year i
Savings account issue (Score:2)
Someone can put money into a savings account, and it can grow due to interest, or lose money if fees exceed the interest gained, or perhaps you let it grow and you spend money and it's pretty "unstable" in that respect.
Consider this. You buy a nice car for $80k. Depending, it might mature in value over the years if it is a classic. You then sell it for $100k later on.
Let us say when someone liquidates assets, that it needs to be conside
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:3, Informative)
The costs and hassles of compliance with those taxes are passed on to businesses instead of consumers (although it is the consumer who ultimately pays).
For example, in Iowa, certain bank service charges are taxable (but not all of them!). A service charge on a savings account is not taxable, but a service charge on a checking account is. That's not too bad to start with, but it gets better...
If you were to wire some money from one bank to another, it
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
Cynicism aside - you have a basically good idea here. The same progressive system you suggest for property taxes should apply to capital gains. Aside from that - keep it as simple as possible, close loopholes, get rid of exceptions, make the whole system transparent.
I guess the numbers you give are rather low, but that's just a feeling. But, as I said, good luck lobbying for a system li
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
Seriously, tax revenue should probably only go to things like infrastructure, education, emergency services, courts, and things that help the general public. Things like spending a million dollars on new lightposts (like the city to which I just moved did shortly before I moved here) is kind of a waste.
Where it gets tricky is when you have to define
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
Here's a radical idea that would definately help everyone. Food is one thing everyone needs, yet not everyone can afford it. What we could do is provide each resident of the state with a special debit card, fill it with $50 per month (to be adjusted biennially to be proportional to the minimum wage). Wi
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2, Interesting)
If it's for police, I'd rather handle the problem myself, with a gun. Certainly a heck of a lot faster response time: 1000 fps lead (feet, not frames
If it's for ambulance or fire, thats what insurance is for.
And yeah - I know you'll lecture me about how many people can't afford insurance. But thats only because the government interferes in the market. If we had
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
A private insurance will just give you money if your child died in the fire.
Re:What about tax reform ideas? (Score:2)
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:3, Informative)
Calm down, angry nerd hordes! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:2)
Re:Yard Sales.. (Score:2)
Not "all sales/auctions" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not "all sales/auctions" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not "all sales/auctions" (Score:2)
I don't think time was your most serious problem here.
I've had the distinct impression for a while that all the editors email is mapped to
But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2, Insightful)
So why should anyone pay GST on second hand goods?
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
This is only really relevant to people operating as businesses, there's no burden on Joe Average.
The issue here is that some such businesses were charging customers GST anyway but not including it in the listing
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
No, it's not. GST isn't payable on second hand goods.
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
That's not how it works. When a reseller buys items that are subject to GST they are able to claim the GST component as "input credits" (which basically means they don't pay the GST on that item). Effectively, if they are purchasing items to resell, they buy them "GST free".
The *tax code* re
Get a clue (Score:5, Informative)
The total GST paid is only 10% on top of the final value of the good.
If I as a business buy a widget for $11 from a supplier then:
-The GST component is $1 which the supplier sends to the tax man
-The supplier gets to keep $10.
-I note that I've paid $1 GST on purchases
If I then sell that widget to you for $33 dollars:
-The GST component is $3, but I have a credit for $1 from above so I send $2 to the taxman.
-I get to keep $31
The final sale price was $33. $3 (2 from me, 1 from my supplier) goes to the taxman which is 10% of the final non-gst amount. No matter how many times it is sold that remains true.
Re:Get a clue (Score:2)
It goes up from $10+GST to $30+GST? You charge your purchaser $30+GST, but actually pay the taxman GST on $(30-10).
Over a quarter, your tax reporting is along the lines of:
Paid out: $3000 in GST on purchases
Charged: $5000 in GST on sales.
I owe: $2000 in GST.
Don't know about
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
Companies get credits for GST paid. For example if I buy a $110 item ($100 + $10 of GST) I get a $10 GST Credit.
I then sell the item for $150 + $15 GST. This means that overall I only have to send the Tax Department $5. The other $10 of the GST on the sale price has been sent to the Tax department by my supplier.
This ensures that GST only is paid once for each item by the end consumer of that item.
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
I know that this leaves a lot of holes - the whole supply and demand thing as far as pricing power goes - but the result is the same - the consumer is ending up paying more for the same item with the same profit margin going t
Re:But GST has already been paid for! (Score:2)
I think you are confusing yourself or at least speaking too loosely. The tax rate is clearly a "simple" 10% because $15 is 10% of the non tax amount ($150). The tax man is only getting 10% so that is the tax rate.
The price cou
READ THE ARTICLE! (Score:3, Insightful)
Make them include postage! (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm so sick of seeing "bargains" on ebay which are $1 with $16 postage.
Personally i'd love it if they had a filter for "Items which start at 1c with no reserve" so that i can filter out all the businesses who simply retail on ebay.
Re:Make them include postage! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Make them include postage! (Score:2)
The weird thing is that by letting sellers away with this, ebay not only piss off buyers but end up costing themselves a lot in potential income.
Re:Make them include postage! (Score:2)
its the only way you have any chance of getting anythign done against such people.
Don't knock eBay businesses (Score:2)
Doesn't apply to everything, but often you can save money this way. I always check when I'm buying some kind of profes
Re:Make them include postage! (Score:2)
Re:Make them include postage! (Score:3, Insightful)
USA Package: Fill out address, go to Post Office, stamp, pay, done.
Int'l Package: Fill out address, go to Post Office, fill out a million forms for the Customs office, pay dues, check with bank to make sure international payment wasn't fraudulent.. send package, hope customs doesn't eat it..
Re:Make them include postage! (Score:2)
I've bought and sold things internationally and never had any problems.
The better international buyers use paypal and have fedex show up at your place to collect the package.
This is a great move (Score:5, Informative)
It has nothing to do with making people charge a tax with their auctions, it's simply a measure to stop people grabbing an extra 10% under the guise of a tax where they may not have actually needed to collect GST.
Re:This is a great move (Score:3, Informative)
I'm pretty sure you can only advertise "ex-GST" prices if you are wholesaling. Ebay is not a wholesaling site - and if you are selling a one-off item, then you would have a hard time claiming that you were, fine print or otherwize.
Unlike California, the price on goods on the shop shelves in Aus is the price you pay. The 10% GST comes out if it and its the seller's problem, not the buyers. You are not allowed to advertised tax-exclusive prices.
My current ebay pet hate is peo
Disadvantages international buyers (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem comes if the buyer is international -- eg, the US. In this case, it counts as an export, and is exempt from GST. This means that a bid of (for example) $105 by an international buyer is worth more to the seller than a domestic bid of $110.
It means tha
Only fair! (Score:2)
If you are a commercial entity and need to charge GST, you should be so fair to show it in the price. And if you (or some rotten apples) don't but charge it later anyway, then they all have to suffer for it.
If you are a simple garage saler, then it doesn't affect you.
Very simple, I would even call it common sense
'Cause I'm the Tax Man (Score:3, Funny)
Time (Score:3, Funny)
You don't have to include GST (Score:2, Informative)
To be clear........ (Score:5, Informative)
Even regular merchants in Australia need to advertise prices **WITH** GST included. I've also lived in Canada and the U.S., and I have to tell you it's nice to buy something and pay the price on the sticker.... not up to 15% more once they punch it into the register and the tax gets calculated.
This warning came from the fact that commercial merchants (of which there are millions) on ebay were advertising without GST, and then adding it on to the final price after the auction when over. Thats pretty misleading from where I stand and perfectly reasonably. This will have no impact on the average Joe because he isn't required to charge GST.
Re:To be clear........ (Score:2)
Up to 15% more? Where? Must be somewhere in Canada, because in the US the highest sales tax [yourtax.org] is in Tennesee, at 9.35%. What you see as an inconvenience is actually saving you money. The fact that people see exactly how much money the filthy local government is taking from them (and can therefore exp
Re:To be clear........ (Score:2)
What did VAT in the UK used to be? GST in New Zealand started at 10% and was going to 12% but because of pricing issues, they had to make it 12.5% and the next step is 15%. The US system seems to be better at keeping so much money from ending up in an inefficient bureaucracy.
Re:To be clear........ (Score:3, Informative)
Yup. GST is 7% across the country, and then some provinces tack on a PST [taxtips.ca] on top of that. According to that link, PST (in the provinces that even have it) varies from 7% to 10%, making sales tax in those provinces 14% to 17% in total.
This only affects those registered for the GST (Score:5, Informative)
eBay are only being ordered to enforce those WHO ARE registered for the GST to include it in the final sale price. If you are not registered for the GST (or if you're selling a personal item), these changes do not apply to you.
This is to combat deception where a seller would use the GST-exclusive price to outshine their competitors and then whack the GST on the top when payment is due. This is a result of where all prices quoted in Australia must already include the GST by law.
Re:This only affects those registered for the GST (Score:2)
Despite being technically accurate owing to a couple of where applicables, their announcement was bound to cause confusion--ABC News Online also got it wrong in their initial report. Failure to foresee this confusion is one thing, but particularly annoying is that they sent out a cl
The Point of the Story (Score:2)
As for the effect on buyers outside of Australia, most countries have a method for exempt persons to either get their GST back after the fact or avoid (with paperwork) paying it in the first place. In Australia for instance exports are considered GST free. Would a sale on eBay be considered an export?
Sounds like a good idea to me (Score:3, Interesting)
Sounds like this requirement is a good idea.
As an Aussie, I remember once buying a shirt in a shop in California. When I got to the checkout, I was charged for state tax on top of the price that was on the ticket. I didn't complain, because I realised at the time that that's how things are done in California.
In Australia, however, it is universally assumed that advertised prices include all taxes. That's how things are done here. For an Australian website to advertise prices otherwise would be, IMHO, misleading.
Yes, there are going to be lots of items that don't attract GST, so fine GST should not be charged on them. And yes, people outside Australia don't have to pay any GST. Fine. The simple solution is to require any sales that are subject to GST to have a note alongside the price sayng "plus 10% GST to Australian shipping addresses" or something. Easy.
Re:Sounds like a good idea to me (Score:2)
This never seizes to annoy me whenever I visit the US. Of course with the weakness of the US dollar now any miscalculation due to states sales taxes are more than compensated for by me mentally overestimating the value of USD... :)
In Aust
GST = (Score:3, Informative)
Thank You (Score:2)
Missing the point (Score:2, Insightful)
Eg. under IT goods on ebay, many computer stores sell items, and they provide 'tax invoices' on the goods. However many also used to have a little 'note' in their payment section stating that the FINAL sale price was 'bid' price + 10% (GST).
This can be frustrating for bidders who have to look
Re:Missing the point (Score:2)
See, someone convinced the local government here in Manitoba that it was better to show GST on the receipt and not included in the price.
Me, I think it is deceptive all-around and all retailers should be required to show both prices. That way the tax itself isn't hidden (by the government in prices), and the retails can't blame their high prices on the tax.
Re:Missing the point (Score:2)
In Australia your receipt ("tax invoice") must indicate whether or not an item had GST attached (some items are GST-exempt), the total cost and the GST component of that total.
GST? (Score:2, Funny)
eBay are still Tax Cheats (Score:5, Interesting)
Take an example: I sold an item on ebay.com.au recently. I'm an Australian tax paying Australian citizen living in Australia, I used the services of the Australian eBay subsidiary to sell an item to another Australian citizen/resident/taxpayer, made the financial dealing in Australian dollars between Australian banks. Following the deal, eBay Australia sent me an invoice for services rendered, a fee in Australian dollars which they require to be paid to my choice of an Australian bank account or by mailing a cheque or money order to an Australian address.
So I ask for an Australian Tax Invoice in accordance with Australian law. It seemed a reasonable request to me.
Now, all of a sudden, eBay are dancing around alternating between calling themselves "eBay Inc.", an American company, and "eBay AG" (what is that, Swiss, or German or something). They won't answer communications about Australian tax, their 'support' monkeys just hit the 'random diversion' button and send off irrelevant "Thank-you for contacting eBay support, here's some information about... a Duck" type replies.
I've had it with the fockers, after this little carry on, I'm gonna start whingeing at the tax office and the consumer whassname!
Re:eBay are still Tax Cheats (Score:2)
Re:eBay are still Tax Cheats (Score:4, Informative)
I suppose he's not entitled to the ITC if he didn't pay the tax, but its reasonable to assume that Ebay's invoice to him is "tax included", and so he wants the documentation to claim the ITC.
If Ebay.au "forgot" to levy it and started to, then yes, he'd pay 10% more, but get it back in the ITC (because businesses that collect GST get to claim ITCs on the GST they pay). So, he'd be no worse off (except that the 'old' price, lacking GST, allowed for no ITC and cost him more out of pocket).
But yeah, if Ebay.au "corrected" such an oversight, it would cost all non-businesses more.
A few point to be clarified (Score:2)
Can't believe I'm going to say this, but... (Score:2)
It's simple (Score:2)
It's really simple.
The IT industry in this country thought they could ignore the law when it first came in but even those thick skulls eventually realised they were breaking the law.
Incidentally I got some discounts around that time by demanding they stick by advertised prices (and pay the GST).
in germany (Score:2)
so you always know how much you have to pay.
ebay shops (Score:2)
Ebay transparent pricing (Score:2)
Certain commercial sellers [ebay.com.au] quote ex GST and this can be confusing for buyers & improve their ebay search ranking.
Re:Sigh... (Score:2)
Re:Sigh... (Score:2)
The fun is when you get charged GST on top of the price of petrol, as a large portion of the price of petrol in Australia comes from Government levies and charges. Taxed on the price of something that has already been taxed
Re:Sigh... (Score:3, Informative)
In Aus at least, you do not need to charge GST until your turnover exceed $50,000 per year, and GST should only apply to new, not second-hand goods.
What was happening was that people were bidding on items (or using 'buy it now') and then the seller added tax on top. There was no indication that tax w
Re:Sigh... (Score:4, Informative)
"It's yours"
"Here's your $10"
"That's $11"
"WTF?"
"I have to charge G.S.T."
"Then you should have said so"
That's all. If you have to charge G.S.T., then you have to include it in the stated price. Most casual sales don't have to charge G.S.T..
Re:Sigh... (Score:3, Informative)
Not quite. You're not REQUIRED to register your business for GST unless your turnover exceeds $50,000/year (I think it's $100,000 for NPOs). If you do register you are required to charge GST even if your turnover is less than $50,000/annum. The upside is that you can claim the GST you paid, to your suppliers, back and if you paid more than you charged then
Re:Sigh... (Score:2)
Besides, summaries would be a lot longer if there was a full detailed explanation of everything in it. Is it that hard to click and read the article to find out what it's talking about, or even google for the term?
Thankyou (Score:2, Informative)
Sometimes I would do anything for mod points
This was exactly my thinking when I submitted the story! The change this article talks about is something that affected myself and I thought that other
Or put another way... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Or put another way... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Sigh... (Score:2, Informative)
Pff.. the rest of the world should only post comments that relate to the good old USA maybe? What about if someone posts about VAT? Do all Aussies naturally know about the xth Ammendment?
Re:Sigh... (Score:2)
Not quite. It's a 'Goods and Services Tax'. Australia doesn't have sales tax as such anymore - the GST was introduced a few years ago as a far easier to implement, apply and administer alternative. Trouble is, eBay seem to think they're exempt.
Re:Alright, some Aussie, tell us.. (Score:5, Informative)
This was a dumb article to post on Slashdot - all it is about is the ACCC making sure that consumers don't get ripped off by businesses that eBay to sell things.
Re:Alright, some Aussie, tell us.. (Score:2, Informative)
The GST stands for Goods and Services Tax. Basically, the price of anything you buy or pay for in Australia has to include an extra 10%, which the seller then has to give to the tax office. There are a few exceptions, most notably unprocessed food like fruit and vegetables.
Re:Alright, some Aussie, tell us.. (Score:2)
What is happening with eBay is that the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Comission) is starting to treat eBay "stores" like any other store, where the displayed price MUST include the GST component if most of your target audience Will Be Paying GST. In other words, if you only sell to companies (that can claim GST back), then there is no need to include GST. Everyday consumers will, so you have to include the GST in the price.
Also, like some people in NZ and Canada have
Re:Alright, some Aussie, tell us.. (Score:2)
The GST also got rid of the tax exemption crap we had to deal with on hardware. For engineers and project managers we could claim an exemption on the 22% tax. For secretaries and other office types we had to pay the full price. )With hidden 22% tax)
What got really odd was, IIRC, sound cards that had a significat "software component" averaged the tax down to 15%.
Now we just subtract the tax we paid to suppliers from the tax we tak
Re:Piggy bank (Score:2)
Right on. In the US slaes tax is set in each state (Oregon doesn't have any, while in california in varies from 7-8%) As far as I know large mail order companies that sell in their own state are required to add sales tax, whether the order is taken by mail phone or internet. Australia just enforces their sales tax on a nationwide basis
Re:Piggy bank (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Double Taxation? (Score:2)
You earn a low-scale salary, and the govt takes 19.5% income tax (PAYE). Higher incomes attract higher taxation rates for those portions (33% and 39%). Also, you have a student loan, so they take an other 10% for that. So you get to take home 70.5% of your salary.
Then, everything you buy retail has 12.5% GST on it. So your dollars actually have only 87.5% of their valu
Re:Greenwich sidereal time? (Score:2)