No Love From Microsoft For Xbox Modders 579
RandyOo writes: "Only 4 days after news of an XBox port of MAME was posted to Slashdot, Microsoft contacted the admin of mame.net and downloads have now been removed. Knew I should have downloaded it earlier this morning ... Thank goodness for P2P!" And scubacuda writes: "According to The Register, one group of Xbox hackers have decided to halt development on its Xbox mod chip. It will be interesting to see how other developers follow suit."
I would've had first post.... (Score:3, Funny)
you expected otherwise? (Score:2, Insightful)
confused (Score:3, Interesting)
How is this different from apple throwing a hissy fit because I've ported galeon to run native on carbon (which I haven't, but for sake of argument)?
I truly am confused, not just shocked, shocked. Not askign you to justify M$ reasoning, just explain it.
Re:confused (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft demanded that the downloads be stopped because the binary was created using Microsoft's Xbox Dev Kit (XDK). Either something distributed in the binary, or the license restrictions on the Dev Kit forbid distributing the binary.
The source is still legally obtainable. The binary is probably available illegally through LimeWire/Kazaa/IRC.
Re:confused (Score:3, Informative)
From http://www.xbox.com/dev/regdev.htm [xbox.com]: "NO XBOX SOFTWARE PRODUCT(S) MAY BE PUBLISHED, OR DISTRIBUTED TO END USERS, EXCEPT BY A LICENSED PUBLISHER PURSUANT TO AN XBOX DEVELOPMENT KIT AND XBOX PUBLISHER LICENSE AGREEMENT EXECUTED BY MICROSOFT."
So it sounds like they violated the license on their XDK. Question: How did they get an XDK, and how can the rest of us get one? Or are they also out there on Lime Wire/Kazaa/IRC?
Xbox = a window on Palladium (Score:5, Insightful)
do you think that if they are doing this with X-Box, that they won't do something similar with Palladium?
It is all that trademark control of the user experience thing happening all over again.
Re:Xbox = a window on Palladium (Score:2)
We don't want our PCs to become closed Xboxes in the future, do we?
Re:Xbox = a window on Palladium (Score:2)
I love this quote, in its full version it is actually even more interesting. Tacitus (this is from memory) says that during the republican period of Rome, laws began to be made to advance a particular persons private interests rather than the public good, and the more corrupt the republic became, the more of those laws it made. Which is very applicable to the purchase of legislation by the media Goliaths we like so much on Slashdot.
Re:Xbox = a window on Palladium (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, Palladium == Xbox 2 (Score:5, Insightful)
What Palladium is proposing is that the boot decryption keys are embedded in the CPU itself. They need AMD & Intel's cooperation for this, of course, and now they have it. This way, it's all but impossible to modify the boot code or to view the encryption keys, except perhaps by shaving the top off the CPU & examining the ROM mask directly with a (very) high-powered microscope.
Palladium may not take off (there's going to be a lot of privacy concerns, and it's going to be very difficult to secure comprehensive industry support, or it just won't fly), but they sure as hell can implement it in Xbox 2.
Even this approach can be defeated by e.g. bugs, human error, social engineering etc etc, but it makes things a lot harder to crack/reverse engineer from the hardware/software aspect. Look for Xbox 2 as a feasibility study of the Palladium concept.
How will MS possible stop this then?! (Score:2, Funny)
You can now download Mod chips via P2P?! Sweet!
Re:How will MS possible stop this then?! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How will MS possible stop this then?! (Score:3, Funny)
Shock, Amazement (Score:2, Flamebait)
Remember; listening to microsoft too much killed Sega as a Console producer; Now they've been reduced to software. People who buy X-Boxen deserve what they get, IE a kick in the ass.
Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
What planet are you from? (Score:3, Insightful)
WTF?! Where did you hear there? I realize that MS isn't well liked, that doesn't mean that they're responsible for failures that are even semi-linked to them.
The reason that Sega failed as a console producer dates back to their flooding the market with crap. The Sega CD was was a decent add-on but didn't have very many interesting games (at least compared to the Genesis.) They released the 32x and quickly forgot about it. The Saturn spent all it's time playing catch-up to Sony and failed miserably. When the Dreamcast was released, the PS2 was hot on it's heels.
If anything, MS helped the Dreamcast by providing them with a CE-based OS for developers to port games to it. Unfortunately, though, Sega couldn't afford to keep producing Dreamcast consoles. They'z expensive. With the competition from PS2, MS, and Nintendo, there was just no way they could keep up. So they made the right decision: Make games for all the consoles, make your competitors earn you money.
This has nothing to do with Microsoft. Just because MS has their logo on the Dreamcast, doesn't mean they did anything to lead to it's demise. I realize MS is widely hated here, but if everybody on Slashdot does nothing but bash MS, then nobody'll take you seriously when you have a legit complaint about MS.
Re:What planet are you from? (Score:3, Interesting)
Very very few of the CE games were any good. Rogue Spear may have been the only one. So apparently the developers you get from having WINCE are not so hot. All the good ganes seemed to use the Sega OS. Not that it really matters unless Sega had to pay a lot for the CE licence. If they were smart though there is only a CE payment on the CE using games...of corse MS would want a payment per unit shipped, CE or not.
I think Sega killed their consoles more or less just because they couldn't design a PS2 level system with the moeny they had left, and in the time needed. I doubt they killed the DC because they were too costly, if so, why did they let the price drop to $100 or so? But, yeah, I don't see how MS had much influence on killing the DC.
Re:What planet are you from? (Score:2)
Re:What planet are you from? (Score:2)
but I seriously think the downfall of the DC was that they didnt produce any games that were as fun and replayable like soul caliber.
when I bought the DC when it first came out I spent a total of 400 on it, controller, mem packs and games. I then bought several $50 games over the next while - but there is only two games that I still ever paly on it - soul caliber and tennis.
the DC was a great console - if only they had put out some good games there would be a totally different situation.
What I would like to see happen is consoles themselves becoming very cheap - but the games could remain at 60 bux... that way you could get several (like maybe 4 or 5) really good games for your console - but make the console itself for like 99 or 150 at the most. then you subsidize the console through the price of the games. and get a larger market share.
I just pulled all that out of my ass - and hafta get back to work, so not putting too much thought into it - so tear apart as needed and fix the concept
Don't Be Cruel (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, now wait a minute. A kick in the ass I can understand, but the X-BOX people have to get IE too? Be humane, please!
WHAT???? (Score:5, Funny)
Next thing you know they'll start mucking around with standards and protocols!
Re:WHAT???? (Score:2)
I get the impression you're trying to say that Microsoft doesn't work well with hackers; but I beg to differ:
If it wasn't for Microsoft, we hackers wouldn't have anything to hack.
Re:WHAT???? (Score:2)
Nah, just like always... they're only cracker friedly.
Genie, get back in the bottle... (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft can kick and whine and scream all they want to, but it's far, far too late. They knew that all the other consoles get chipped. They knew that their hardware was ripe for a Linux/Mame/Etc.. port. They knew that they were going to have to fight this, even if every other console maker has been doing it from the beginning of time.
Sorry, Bill. Take a good look at Sony, your main source of competition. What have they done? Released a Linux kit... and therefore eventual Mame compatibility.
Lunix for PS2 smarter than most think. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony did the right thing by saying they would eventually be releasing everything needed to make your own "custom play" console. They defused the desire and efforts of many who would have done otherwise. Since this strategy of "announce and release somewhere a bazillion years from now" was pretty much created by Microsoft I'm not sure why they just didn't do this now?
Re:Genie, get back in the bottle... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony may have released a Linux kit, but that is irrelevant because it's not a "hack" but it's an authorized CD. You are kidding yourself if you think that you can use that CD to make and distribute your own Linux distro, or any other software for the PS2. You are also kidding yourself if you think that Sony doesn't fight hard against pirates and the devices they use (eg mod chips).
Last paragraph (Score:2)
or
It will be interesting to see how the (law) suits will follow the other developers.
Re:Last paragraph (Score:2)
Re:Last paragraph (Score:2)
If not, then this isn't a big deal. You bought a box. You d/l the source. You compile. You do what you want.
Just don't distribute binaries.
Anyone who can't figure out how to compile source shouldn't be hacking a console anyway.
The Xtender site is also gone (Score:3, Informative)
It's only the binaries (Score:5, Informative)
Precedent has already been set forth by Sega V. Accolade. One does not need permission from a platform developer to release software for that platform, given sufficient reverse engineering. However, since MAME-X, and all other Xbox software, uses Xbox's (and Windows') APIs, effectively nothing can be released without Microsoft's consent.
The EULA strikes again.
Re:It's only the binaries (Score:5, Informative)
Not EULA, but Microsoft's property. Apparently binaries compiled with the XDK end up with some part of them still copyrighted by Microsoft, so they clearly have a case here. They did not mention anything about source code, and common sense says that it shouldn't be a problem, so that is still available.
If somebody invests the time and other resources to do a clean-room reverse-engineering of the Xbox development kit or API, we may see the binaries again. But until then, they are illegal. Move along, nothing to see here (anymore).
Re:It's only the binaries (Score:5, Insightful)
Virulent licensing indeed. And Microsoft complains about how the GPL contaminates projects.
Well, technically, all of Microsoft's software is Microsoft's property. It's never "given" or "sold" to us, but just licensed. So it is a EULA issue.
How Microsoft wishes to explain the fault is something different, but it's the same either way. But, at any rate, good luck fighting the fight further (if you plan to).
Re:It's only the binaries (Score:3, Insightful)
They already said that anything put through Hotmail belongs to them. How long before Microsoft claim copyright on anything produced by MS Word?
Re:It's only the binaries (Score:3, Informative)
Then distribute just the 'extra' bits - to reconstruct a working program, combine the downloaded version with code from some other Xbox title.
Don't know whether this would count as contributory copyright infringement.
Re:It's only the binaries (Score:2)
Smooth Move Microsoft (Score:2)
Who wants to bet that people who chip consoles won't feel bad about downloading a warezed copy of the Xbox-DK? I thought so...
Re:It's only the binaries (Score:2)
I wonder what tatics MS will try once there is a open dev kit for the hardware.
MS Mods Modders (Score:2, Funny)
This quote from The Reg caught me... (Score:5, Funny)
The irony of that statement, told by The Register with a straight face, is delicious! "Look! We're using this to run homebrew software, like Joust, Centipede, and Wizard of Wor!"
Re:This quote from The Reg caught me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Otherwise, who the hell cares. The best part is, the only people that get up in arms are the companies and their lawyers. Ive yet to hear the designer of Astroids complain bitterly that he didn't get repaid for every Asteroids rip off out there.
Microsoft (and old videogame authors, publishers) can kiss my fucking ass. They'd been paid in spades. Look at the gaming industry right now
Its like a next door neighbour with a house 4,000,000 bigger than mine who's pissed off because I'm blocking the sun to one tiny basement window at the corner of the mansion.
Yes, there is a smidgen of irony in there, but if these games' royalties are so valuable, they'd be advertising them and selling them in bundles other than "Top 20 Arcade Hits" etc bundles. Even then, thats 'recycled' innovation, not something I want to support monetarily. Anyone that wants to play Joust, Centipede, etc has undoubedly paid their dues at the quarter-eating-boxes, etc years ago.
Compare this to books: do you really think you should have to buy your favorite books every 10 years, because the paper you read it on becomes obsolete and unavailable every decade?
Re:This quote from The Reg caught me... (Score:2)
But yes, that makes me somewhat of a hypocrite. I suppose if people support the drive companies have to exercise total control over thier IP, then I dont think its that hypocritical to simply say, "I suppose ad inifitum when it benifits the commons, but not when it benifits a private entity."
Personally, I think if Disney et all hadn't successfully fucked up copyright law, Stallman wouldn't have have percieved the need to make the GPL so 'Stallmaneque'. No man is an island, and Stallman is clearly just a fight fire with fire kinda guy, even if it makes him less credible to the crowd that believes that the private sector's love for draconian author rights. Without such a pro-private climate, I highly doubt there would be such a pro-commons camp, because the law would balance everyones interests sufficiently (as it did in the 1700s, and up to the late 1800s).
Both America and Russia, during the cold war, had each other to thank for their righteousness and unblinking uncompromising positions regarding their social and political stances. The Stallman camp vs the Private camp is the same deal. I just happen to side with Stallman, since it makes no sense to me to defend the rights of the private when so many people who are supposed to be benifiting under that system are not happy with its fruits.
Re:This quote from The Reg caught me... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not claiming the moral high ground here (morals are subjective by nature, anyhow)
MAME should be left alone and not considered a piracy-enabling machine. Chasing after its users does more harm to the public than the good that comes from protecting the copyright owners of those old, already-been-paid-for games.
Again, I just stick by my opinion that the grey market has always existed, always will, and has always operated _fairly_ independantly (for the most part) from the economy. I dont know anybody that would outright PAY lots of money for those games, but I sure know that letting people keep playing them for years will immortalize the creators and contributors of the games (nevermind the games themselves); and that is much more significant repayment to society than allowing a company to milk some nostalgic game players for a piddly little revenue stream that goes to one company.
Isn't anyone afraid we wont have a history and culture 30 years from now, because companies will hold all the copyrights to our childhoods' cultures? ("Yes, son, we used to play this game called Asteroids, but I cant show it to you, because its not profitable for Activision to sell it anymore. I could get it myself, but their lawyers are afraid of letting it into the commons on the off-chance that they decide to release another version of it any year now and our little father/son fun will dillute the value of their brand
Re:Unfortunately (Score:3, Informative)
i have an idea ... (Score:2, Funny)
People still use X-Box? (Score:2)
Microsoft's big happy campaign behind the X-Box was that it would be integrable with a lot of stuff since it was based around a standard computer...
Well, so far that's proved to be useless, considering the lack of a commercial OS to run off of it, no inter-web games available as of yet, and no use of this would-be harddrive that couldn't be achieved on a PS-2.
So now they're getting pissed off at Modders. Well what do they expect? They've given us a bunch of resources, and now they're saying "Nope, you can't use them".
Yeah, M$ doesn't really belong in the gaming industry if you ask me. Playstation [slashdot.org] seems to be doing a good job and providing the public with everything Microsoft promised.
Re:People still use X-Box? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that there have been some lackluster games on the Xbox, but it has enough hits that justify for those. The PS2 had NOTHING for 1 year!! They had no good games, and at the end of the year when the Xbox came out, they got GTA3 and FFX etc...
I'm tired of people bashing the Xbox based on its parent company. Fight MS on the PC side, but let them try to create some competition in the console market. We (the consumers) are the only ones to benefit from this competition. I'm tired of only have Sony or Nintendo as an option, because they don't compete against each other... those that buy Nintendo's products will continue to buy Nintendo products, and those who buy Sony products will continue to buy Sony products. The XBox bring a nice refreshing burst of competition, developers for the PS2 are now having to make their games look much nicer and concentrate on the visual aspects as well as the gameplay elements and Nintendo developers are now creating more mature games.
So in closing... just stop being ignorant... I'm tired of ignorance on Slashdot, are we a community of well educated tech people or are we a community of ignorant bafoons that have nothing better to do at work then spread FUD.
-- DeionXxX
Re:People still use X-Box? (Score:3, Informative)
*ahem* So Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, ATV Offroad Fury, SSX, Twisted Metal: Black, Onimusha, NBA Street, Tekken Tag Tournament and Sky Odessy don't count as "good games"? I'd hate to have your standard for "good games", as you are going to be disappointed with just about 99.999% of all games out there.
Sorry, I know, feeding the trolls and all, but this tired "the PS2 had no good games!" argument ticks me off whenever I see it.
Re:People still use X-Box? (Score:2)
Twisted Metal: Black and ATV Offroad Fury are two of the most entertaining 4-player games I've played in recent years.
SSX did for snowboarding games what Tony Hawk did for skateboarding games.
Sky Odessy, while a bit under par graphically, is one of the most entertaining single-player games I've laid hands on. It's a tough game, no doubt, but eminently entertaining and rewarding. I suggest you check it out.
I also forgot Devil May Cry, which is Castlevania reincarnated in glorious 3D. Now why can't Konami do it right?
Re:People still use X-Box? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure they'd like to know this...
"those that buy Nintendo's products will continue to buy Nintendo products, and those who buy Sony products will continue to buy Sony products."
So... you're saying having a choice between two different philosophies is bad, and being able to choose between three carbon copies is good?
You may have a point about Nintendo fans being in it for the long haul, but please remember that this is only Sony's second console to date. Just because they're buying PS2s today doesn't mean they'll buy PS3s tomorrow (or even continue to buy PS2s). After all, most of the people that bought PSX today bought Sega yesterday, Nintendo the day before and Atari before that.
A lot of Nintendo people buy Nintendo stuff because they are God's gift to game developers (a point that has proven itself far too often to bother arguing about). Generally speaking, we don't care if Nintendo's new system will be two tin cans and a rock as long as we get to play Miyamoto's next games on it.
Sony, on the other hand, has shown a reliance on third-party developers, and their PSX sales were high because of the wide number of third parties that developed for it instead the N64. But even then they lost out to the N64 in many areas (including North America). In short, Sony isn't selling a Sony system, they're selling a non-Nintendo system. And Sony is heading for trouble because the vast majority of third-party games today are hardware agnostic. Even Final Fantasy's next installment will be on all three consoles.
If you say that Nintendo and Sony don't compete with each other, then by your own definition Microsoft is only aiming to compete with Sony. The majority of the games on both of those systems are aimed at the same audience.
"and Nintendo developers are now creating more mature games."
Pet peeve time: Anybody who says something like GTA3 is more mature than something like Zelda: Majora's Mask needs to have their head examined. That, or they're still in high school.
Re:People still use X-Box? (Score:3, Informative)
So, depending on the game, it's not so simple as you seem to think. How much did you pay to play Quake 3 online? Diablo? These are "games worth playing" with "large user bases".
Also, as noted in other posts, Microsoft's strategy may not prevent developers from charging additional costs. See PSO for an example.
Finally, there's this silly little thing known as "conflict of interests." What if Microsoft makes a game that competes against another developer's game (think EA's Madden versus MS's NFL Fever)? Electronic Arts would much rather support their own network independent of MS than depend on a direct competitor. This is not anti-MS rhetoric, this is how business works.
-J
Re:People still use X-Box? (Score:3, Informative)
Don't underestimate the power of the installed base. You can't sell games to people that don't own consoles. Not only that, as I recall (ergo, take this with a grain of salt...) there have been more PS2 systems sold in the time since the X-Box was released than X-Boxes. That's not exactly setting the world on fire if you're MS.
I think Sony knows exactly what they're doing. People keep saying that online play is going to be the next killer app for consoles but it isn't happening yet. The huge broadband rollout has not gone as well as expected, which is a big part of this expected console network boom (hence X-Box has built in Ethernet). If I had to guess, Sony put a plan in place to have the PS2 online but they're really waiting until the next hardware iteration for it to take off. I don't really care if consoles go online soon or not--it's a novelty. At some point it may be huge. But not now.
-J
People PLAY GAMES on the X-Box (Score:3, Interesting)
MS have never said Xbox would be "integrable" with "other stuff". They never pushed the fact that it was based on standard PC parts. They always pushed it as a killer game console, nothing else.
There will never be a "commercial OS" to run on the Xbox, if MS have anything to do with it. Repeat after me: It's a game console, not a PC.
The online service has not been opened yet, but even so you can still play half a dozen games, including Halo, Tony Hawk (2X & 3) and Nascar Heat, over the net. Not quite "no inter-web games available", whatever that means. When Xbox Live opens in a few weeks, there will be dozens of net-based games, as promised.
And clearly you haven't looked at what uses the hard drive HAS been getting. First off, virtually infinite save games. Second, rip your music & play it from there without the CD, or play it instead of a game's supplied soundtrack (this is really nice). Third, caching game data really does speed up game load times, especially during the game itself. Fourth, it allows you to add content to a game, as DOA3 did with their recent bonus add-on disc.
Fifth, and most important, games are starting to use the hard disk for LARGE amounts of persistent data. Morrowind is a current example of a huge, really detailed world that is simply not possible without the HD. Project Ego is an even more ambitious RPG that preserves & evolves every last detail of the world - forget doing that on a memory save card!
And of course they're pissed off at modders. They will oppose anything that gives people a reason to buy the Xbox (which they take a loss on) and not buy games from it, at least until they can break even on the sale of the box. They will (of course) also oppose anything that might promote or allow piracy of games, to protect their publisher partners.
They haven't "given us a bunch of resources", they're selling a game console, just like Sony et al. And just as with the other consoles, people are seeing the Xbox as a challenge - one with more promise than PS2, DC etc, since it has a built-in HD & ethernet, a faster CPU, more RAM, better gfx & sound and it's a largely familiar architecture.
You're complaining that the Xbox is "useless" because of its lack of non-gaming support, yet you claim MS doesn't belong in the gaming industry? Make up your mind.
Surprise Surprise. (Score:3, Insightful)
Read the message at mame.net... (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, if someone manages to build Xbox binaries with other tools (gcc) and without the libraries and headers that come with Microsofts SDKs, I don't think Microsoft will be able to do anything about that.
Take a look at the GameBoy Advance scene -- there are at least two non-Nintendo compiler chains that you can use to build GBA binaries. Plenty of people have their own sets of header files available for use (I have a heavily modified set of my own). Nintendo realises that they can't stop them. But, if any of the offical GBA SDK shows up on the net, better believe it that Nintendo's lawyers are working to quickly get it offline.
So, this doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft's poor business model and everything to do with protecting their intellectual property.
Good luck porting Binutils ;-) (Score:4, Interesting)
Use the SDK to build gcc.
In practice, a cross-compiling port of the GNU Compiler Collection also requires a port of GNU Binutils, which is strictly not part of the GCC project, but is almost always distributed alongside GCC. Binutils contains the assembler and the linker. The Xbox SDK's linker signs the code with Microsoft's private key, and parties to whom the Xbox SDK is disclosed are contractually restricted from disclosing Microsoft's private key. The unmodded Xbox will not run unsigned software. Therefore, how will you make a linker whose output the Xbox will accept?
Since people like to compare microsoft and autos (Score:5, Insightful)
New response: If cars were like the xbox, we'd be sued for selling after market parts and only be able to buy gas from approved vendors at a dollar a gallon premium.
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:3, Insightful)
Premium != premium (Score:3, Insightful)
A dollar a gallon for premium???
This is what I immediately thought, but the confusion comes from the fact that "premium" appears in both the phrases "pay a premium" (pay more than one would normally pay) and "premium petrol" (petrol with more than 90 percent octane). Grandparent was referring to the former sense, such that if 93% octane petrol normally cost US$1.50 per gallon, Microsoft Gasoline would cost US$2.50 per gallon, a $1.00 premium over the other brands.
And with the combination of the CBDTPA mandating DRM and Microsoft's patent on DRM, Microsoft may be able to pull it off with the force of U.S. law.
How the mighty have fallen (Score:5, Funny)
His business strategy is so feeble that were we allowed to play DONKEY KONG on his $400 console it would all come to an end.
To see the whole world just within grasp, and then forced to watch as it all gets pulverized by Mario's mighty hammer.
Somebody needs to give this guy a Rorschach test. I bet all the ink blots look like money.
Re:How the mighty have fallen (Score:2, Funny)
Hey -- this is one way that he could get Nintendo games to come to the XBox. There'd finally be something for it that was worth playing!
XBox owners: It's a joke. laugh.
--Jeremy
Re:How the mighty have fallen (Score:2)
Thank You, William Gates, Esquire
MAME for TiVo anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
First generation TiVOs may not have enough CPU power to simultaneously play video games and record, but the second generation ones have faster CPUs. They're probably not up to leading edge games but early arcade games should be no problem.
Demonstrate that being hostile to hackers is not a good thing.
I'm confused. (Score:2)
Re:I'm confused. (Score:2)
How is Microsoft doing this? (Score:2)
Is this just good old-fashioned bullying by MS, or is there a legal construction that actually allows them to do this?
I'm speculating that the SDK is only available through some signed contract and that it gives various shutdown capabilities to Microsoft and/or spells out certain types of software that may not be developed using it -- but I'm just speculating. (It would make sense, though.) Anyone got the hard info?
Re:How is Microsoft doing this? (Score:5, Informative)
There are apparently two things that Microsoft is griping about - the sale of Mod Chips, and the distribution of the MAME X-Box binaries.
Issue 1 (Mod Chips): Microsoft may not have a leg to stand on legally. Until reverse-engineering is completely made illegal in the United States (and other countries where Microsoft could sue people), the Mod Chips are semi-legal. I say "semi-legal" because although they generally allow for the use of pirated games, you can also claim that they let you run other things (like non Microsoft formatted CD-R's/DVD's, etc.), like MAME for the X-Box.
Issue 2 (X-Box MAME): It is my understanding that the binaries that were distributed were built using the Microsoft X-Box SDK. This is a no-no. At Sega, we would rent (believe it or not, basically, rent) the development hardware (which was a special Dreamcast unit that had a debugging CPU, a hard drive and a GD-ROM drive that would boot from non-retail GD's) for somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000, and we would include with that a copy of our SDK.
The hardware and SDK were heavily licensed, to the point that we could take them away from a developer on pretty much our whim (although I had never heard of such a thing happening - usually the developers returned them on their own volition, like when they were finished development for the system). Also, the game concepts had to go through committee decisions, and the companies getting the hardware and software were generally heavily scrutinized. I can say from personal experience that I was ordered to not provide a certain company with support, even though they had our hardware and SDK, because they weren't working on an authorized title.
So, basically, you weren't allowed to give out the SDK's to anybody, and since you don't have permission to use the SDK, it is illegal to distribute the resulting binaries (kind of like the Quake I for Dreamcast that was floating around - it required WinCE to build, but only licensed Sega developers had legal rights to use the WinCE SDK). On this issue, I completely agree with Microsoft.
Build it without the X-Box SDK, and you're in the clear. Otherwise, get a good lawyer, because you're committing copyright infringement.
-- Joe
Re:How is Microsoft doing this? (Score:2)
The problem isn't that you haven't got permission to use the SDK, the problem is that the finished binary contains statically linked MS code that you haven't got permission to distribute.
If I use illegal copies of Microsoft Notepad to write a novel (as if), they can't stop me from distributing that novel. If I use an illegal copy of Adobe Photoshop to create an image, they can't do anything to prevent me from distributing that image either.
It's only when my work contains any intellectual property I'm not allowed to distribute I can't distribute it, no matter how it was created.
Sorry MS.. (Score:2)
Here's a scary thought: What if Microsoft *was* selling Hardware Use Licenses..
"You may not use this pointing device to click on any hyperlink on a non-microsoft approved site."
As far as home brew games, just change the code a bit and release it for free or sell it or rent it or whatever for the PC. Preferably a PC running Linux, to really flip MS the bird on this one.
It really was illegal... (Score:4, Informative)
- They bought a proper license for the XDK. The ability to buy one requires an approved title.
OR
- They illegally pirated a copy of the XDK.
Since the MAME project had a working version on a devkit box (the clear case Xboxes), I'd be willing to bet that a programmer at a games shop that has an approved Xbox title took it upon himself to port MAME.
Once MAME was developed, the only thing required to get it running on commercial Xboxes was either pressing a true DVD-9 and getting the code signed as an approved Xbox title, or using a mod-chip and burning the software onto a CD.
The first option wouldn't happen - MAME is not a title that would show the power of Xbox, nor would it be something the average consumer would want.
The legal problem with the second option is that the ported MAME software uses Microsoft's intellectual property. When building software for Xbox, your application is linked against several static libraries that provide the base software services (file systems, memory management, etc.)
Hence, Microsoft really does have the legal right to stop distribution of MAME in this case.
Don't ask me about the mod chip's legal case - I don't know about it at all.
My own personal x-box mod (Score:5, Funny)
Step two: Place drink on X-Box
Step three: Turn on Gamecube and enjoy.
FYI ! (Score:2)
Microsoft has indeed learned from their business model. This is in effect a good reason NOT to buy an XBox, but to stick to games for your PC, preserve that market and you'll still have the option to buy games for it in 5 years. You buy games for proprietary game consoles and watch the PC market wither and you'll have been your own worst enemy (and still be pointing the finger at them to blame.)
Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
In Thailand, you can obtain PS2 and Xbox games from 2.50-5 bucks a pop. Ps2 and Xbox mod chips in Hong Kong cost less than 110 of US currency in the local markets and stores, last time I checked. X-box Mod chip development will likely pop up in Asian countries, so be on the lookout if your interested in this subject.
The Asian mentality which states that "knowledge is free", which is Confucian in origin, is something a so-called "Westerner" may not understand, especially when that person lives in a country full of IP laws. This explains the seemingly endless battle of American companies, such as Microsoft, against the gargantuan "piracy" markets of Asia.
Also, this quote from a paper of a student of Rutgers University titled "Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China" describes the situtation of IPR (Intellectual Protperty Rights) in China:
"Confucius's concept of the transmission of culture and Marx's views on the social nature of language and invention arose from very different ideological foundations. Nonetheless, because each school of thought in its own way saw intellectual creation as fundamentally a product of the larger society from which it emerged, neither elaborated a strong rationale for treating it as establishing private ownership interests.[15] Deeply influenced by these two ideologies, China falls behind all developed countries and many developing countries in the field of intellectual property protection. It is also not difficult to understand why most of Chinese did not know what were IPRs in 1980s."
As one can see, the IP battle between West and East began with ideas created in the West and East. Microsoft's successful attempt to shut down R&D on the Enigmah-X is part of it.
As one famous Chinese scholar once wrote:
"To steal a book is elegance."
More information on the reasons behind the East-West IP battle can be found in here:
"Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China", an essay written by Sheng Ding [rutgers.edu]
"To Steal A Book is an Elegant Offense: Intellectual Property Law in Chinese Civilization" by William P. Alford
I'm Installing a Homebrew Mod this Evening... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:2)
I'm not going to bottle up my enjoyment of life for the benefit of a corporation.
Simply put, you wouldn't have the enjoyment of said product because said product would never exist (or it would exist well outside of most peoples budget) so you wouldn't be able to enjoy it anyway.
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:5, Insightful)
If a company makes a product, I am not obligated to make sure they make money at it - only that the product is useful/enjoyable to myself. That's it. End of my commitment. If I buy War and Peace and use it to beat my groin in a strange masturbatory experience, then Tolstoy shouldn't get all pissed off - he got his money, and I got a bruised crotch.
The same thing applies here. Microsoft's plans for their product do not override *my* plans for their product. Once I've spent the money, they can try to *entice* me to buy games - but if I want to use the Xbox as a doorstop, there's nothing on earth they can do to stop me. Paperweight? My right as a consumer. Potted plants? Same thing.
Put in a mod chip to run Linux so I can put Mame/DivX/a SNES emulator? Still my right - all they can try to do is entice me to spend the money *they* want me to. If they decide to pull the product off the market - that's fine. Perhaps someday there will be a vendor who *will* put that kind of product on the market, and then they will be the one to make money.
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:2)
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:3, Insightful)
Fah, Nintendo has the cheapest console and they actually make money selling them. Microsoft created a console that is quite a bit more expensive to produce than Sony's or Nintendo's and they sell them at a significant loss because they know that otherwise they wouldn't sell very many. They hope to make back this loss with game royalties and services, but it isn't my responsibility to make sure they do. If Microsoft wants to guarantee that they don't lose money on XBox purchases then they need to raise the price of their goods.
Sometimes companies just come up with bad business plans. Microsoft is apparently not immune to this trait.
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:2)
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell that to the secondary market. Hardware is a physical tangible hard-to-copy thing that is owned. If I had an X-Box, I could take little wires and a soldering iron and do anything I want to its innards, risking only voiding the warranty. If I just wanted to use the CPU to keep a little cup of tea warm, I could, and you couldn't stop me.
If you ever tried that with my gaming console (yes, I'm a developer for a major game company, not MS), I'll send my lawyers after you so fast you'll be in jail getting assfucked by Bubba and his friends.
Whatever.
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:2)
actually, MAME is one of the few things that could prompt me to buy an X-BOX. I've been looking to build a MAME console inside this old arcade case a friend of mine has, X BOX + 20 inch TV + arcade pad + MAME = arcade fun without keyboard hassles.
Re:Its gonna be a cold day in hell (Score:3, Informative)
It's also similar to the situation where people were selling cheap internet appliances expecting to lock people into long, expensive ISP contracts. Anyone who bought one and hacked it to use as a cheap terminal was costing the company money.
Another similarly ineffective money losing endeaver was the CueCat debacle. Remember their value attempts to prevent people from hacking on hardware that they were giving away at Radio Shack?
Perhaps the real issue is whether there's any enforceable law that props up a business model that obvious gaping holes in it. Maybe the DMCA is applicable here? Are hackers bypassing any protective measures included by MS?
Excellent Analogy (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's extend your analogy a bit. I'll start a car company, and make cars that require a special type of fuel. I'll price the car competetively against others on the market. How long before someone else starts producing my fuel at a cheaper price? Not long. Who cares if it "costs the company money" when you buy from the cheaper source?
Now hackers have provided alternative "accessories" for the XBOX, and no one cares about Microsoft's business plan.
-dbc
Re:When are they going to get a clue? (Score:2)
Legal but it is damaging... (Score:2)
Having said that there shouldn't be any legal reason that makes a mod chip illegal. SHOULDN'T being the key word here. They can likely sue on any number of fronts just as a legal bullying tactic.
The most obvious attack would be DMCA. By providing a mod chip, then you are possibly circumventing access control measures, etc. Depends on what exactly the mod chip does really. But really it doesn't matter whether they have a solid case or not, as long as it isn't frivolous enough to get thrown out of court on day one, it's gonna cost a lot of resources to fend it off.
Strange thought: what if Sony released a mod chip for X-box? >:)
Re:Oh, come on... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not entirely convinced Microsoft is doing this because they don't want users to run MAME or because they're worried that people will buy an Xbox, mod it, and just use it to run their own software without ever buying a single officially licensed Xbox game. Quite honestly, that seems like such a small drop in the financial bucket that I doubt Microsoft really cares that much.
I think Microsoft's main concern is that people will use modded Xboxes to screw with Microsoft's Xbox Live offering. You know, the one they're investing, like, 80 gazillion dollars into? I'm no security expert, and I have no idea what kind of "military grade" security Microsoft has implemented with their Xbox Live infrastructure, but based on this article on Wednesday [slashdot.org], it does seem to rely heavily on the fact that they're using a closed, Microsoft-only system.
What does that mean? Again, I'm not really sure, but I'd wager good money it means the most likely way somebody could f*** up Xbox Live for users is by using compromised Xboxes. That's something Microsoft definitely doesn't want, and I'm guessing that's why they're showing no love for modders.
Re:Oh, come on... (Score:2)
Re:Oh, come on... (Score:5, Interesting)
So, once again, the home consumer is being punished for a company choosing a stupid business model... How long until this is written into law?
Re:Oh, come on... (Score:2)
What time is it?
-
Re:Mod chips... *shudder* (Score:5, Insightful)
Untrue. If one wants to play legally purchased imported titles on a legally purchased console, the only way to do it is to bypass the technical (not legal) region restriction placed on the console by the manufacturer.
Granted, many console mods are done for the sole purpose of piracy. But there are most definately reasons to mod a console for reasons other than piracy.
Re:Mod chips... *shudder* (Score:3, Informative)
Untrue. If one wants to play legally purchased imported titles on a legally purchased console
Right, but also...
It allows people to write new programs for it. I could write a recipie database, a web server, or GrandTheftSpaceShuttle3000 and sell it or give it away for free.
-
Re:Mod chips... *shudder* (Score:2)
In one breath you say Mod chips should be called "Piracy Chips." There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
Then in the next paragraph, Why do you think Microsoft included an ethernet adapter? It's because when "Xbox Live" goes live, they can see your machine. They could see your saved games, they could see how often you play, and nobody would be the wiser. Why? Because the entire operating system is proprietary, and there's no way to disassemble it. You couldn't even install a piece of software on the Xbox to trap packets coming out of it, because it would have to be approved by Microsoft.
Do you see now? I don't own an X-Box, but if I did I very well may want a Mod-chip installed, so I can add my own software - maybe ZoneAlarm (? or is it ZoneAlert?). So I can see what my console that I purchased is sending out over the internet connection that I pay for.
That's why.
Re:Mod chips... *shudder* (Score:5, Interesting)
No really, mod chips let me import games (which I purchase) from Japan. Pure and simple.
What the fuck is the point of globalization and "the international market" if they are selling neutered hardware that wont let you even USE the stuff you can now have access to in other markets?
It's a fucking joke. Anyone who supports increased global trade, but opposes mod-chips is a total hypocrite. We are not becoming a global community, but a two tiered society - powerful producers and powerless consumers.
Well, fuck that. Like the Boston Tea Party, sometimes you gotta break the rules when they've been sufficiently and effectively stacked up against you.
Re:Mod chips... *shudder* (Score:2)
Jeebus, when I was twelve or so I dissasembeled nearly every mechanical and electronic device in my house... plus I taped an album off a guy around then too so I suppose I'm responsible for all the shitty music put out since 1980.
Oh wait, there was shitty music being put out before that too so I guess not.
Re:Mod chips... *shudder* (Score:2)
Look at the music industry - Because of Napster, they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars, and it shows; The music they're putting out is crap, and it's because of music pirates.
*wipes tear from eye* Too funny =)
WTF is a "legit user"? Someone who plays by the rules Microsoft sets? Just because their business model is based on the flawed assumption that they can keep hax0rs from hax0ring their boxen, doesnt mean we have to play along. In short, FUCK YOU.
Ummm, backups? (Score:2)
This is a totally legitimate use of a mod chip, and isn't piracy at all!
So short-sighted, the "anti-piracy" squad can be.
Re:Do you rent or own an Xbox? (Score:2)
Re:Do you rent or own an Xbox? (Score:3, Interesting)
Nothing. But to compile this bugger, they needed to either a) use a copy of the XBOX SDK that they agreed not to do this, in order to get, or b) use an illegally copied version of the SDK.
The source, should be quite postable, however. So long as it doesn't include anything copyrighted.
Digital signature (Score:3, Informative)
There is no technical reason why the Mame code couldn't follow that path and produce binaries that ran on this platform that were M$ code free.
The Xbox SDK's linker signs code with elliptic curve cryptography, and the Xbox hardware won't run any executable that has not been signed. To be able to sign code without assistance from Microsoft software, you would have to solve a discrete logarithm problem on an elliptic curve [certicom.com], and for the past 16 years, this has been considered a Hard Problem; all known algorithms run in exponential time.