U.S. Attack -- More Updates 2465
I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six
stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and
reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism
units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in
into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston
flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people
first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal
buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down;
major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2
international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here.
More as we
know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.
Airline Emergency Contact Numbers (Score:5, Informative)
American Airlines - 800-245-0999
United Airlines - 800-923-8555
Hope this helps
Re:Airline Emergency Contact Numbers (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Airline Emergency Contact Numbers (Score:5, Informative)
This is for family members of those on the AA and UA flights only, not media inquiries, etc.
Re:Airline Emergency Contact Numbers (Score:4, Informative)
MassPort (Massachusett's Port Authority, which runs Logan) currently has information on contact numbers here:
[massport.com]
http://www.massport.com/about/advisory.html
and also here (including the Boston Red Cross number, which is apparenlty coordinating volunteers):
[massport.com]
http://www.massport.com/about/91101.html
UK Foreign Office number (Score:5, Informative)
Canadian Foreign Office number (Score:4, Informative)
1-800-387-3124
Alternative info channel (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Alternative info channel (Score:4, Informative)
As Ktistec Machine points out, CNN runs an IRC server. It's working fine right now.The channel #CNN_Newsfeed contains the closed caption information from the live broadcast. It's a resonable fall back if you don't have access to television or radio.
If you've got an IRC client, connect to irc://chat.cnn.com:7000/ [irc]. If you've got Java support in your web browser, connect to CNN's java interface [cnn.com]. Once you've logged in and given it a nickname, type "/join #CNN_Newsfeed" in the box.
Remember the past (Score:5, Interesting)
- President Franklin D Roosevelt
December 8th, 1941
Speaking to the American people after the attack on Pearl Harbor
Re:Remember the past (Score:5, Insightful)
Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
After attack on Pearl Harbor
Quoted from http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/generation/ph.htm
Re:Remember the past (Score:5, Insightful)
no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is idiotic.
We citizens reap what our leaders sow (Score:5, Interesting)
tactical nukes (Score:5, Informative)
Also thanks to the radiation, clean up and rescue proceeds at a snail's pace.
And that's the low end of sub-strategic yields. The B-61 is lower, at about 1 kiloton, but you also have tactical nukes like those on the Trident that would cause an estimated 200,000 fatalities in an urban area with density similar to Moscow.
Only for a loose definition of "approach" does this tragedy begin to approach the amount of destruction nuclear weapons are capable of even in their tactical form.
Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.
Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?
We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.
Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.
Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.
Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:3, Flamebait)
You are SO wrong. Appeasement NEVER works. We tried to appease Hitler, and didn't work. Do you really think that we could have "pleaded" with Hitler for peace? Or "pleaded" with Japan when the bombed Pearl Harbor?
On the other hand, when we bombed Khadafi in the 80s, terrorists didn't screw with us for YEARS.
This requires a huge, huge response. The aggressors set the rules. At the very least, invasion of the country that either sponsored, or allowed to happen, this terrorism must be made.
This "day of infamy" must not be allowed to stand.
Go W!
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Kill them all. Every last one of them. And anyone who ever cared about them. No one will be left to carry out revenge. No future generations will rise up.
OR
2. Forgive.
Apparently, neither of these are really an option, so we'll be pedalling this cycle for a good long while to come.
- - - -
But really, "Go W"? Do you have any idea how rediculous that sounds? We'll be lucky if that bastard doesn't round up any person who is a moslem in the US and put them in camps for orderly disposal.
I think that the US people have learned, and will soon have the lesson reinforced, what happens when you elect a president with WEAK foreign experience.
I'm all for rallying around the flag, but I refuse to support this charlatan of a leader.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
"Vietnam", "Afghanistan", "Retreat from Russia"
In the latter, the Russian winter beat back Napolean, in the first two terrorism was able to hang on for years in the face of an aggressor.
>This requires a huge, huge response. The aggressors set the rules. At the very least, invasion of the country that either
>sponsored, or allowed to happen, this terrorism must be made.
We don't know this was state sponsored. Clearly if it was, that country is in the deepest doo-doo imaginable. But it is most likely that this is done by a relatively small group of people; and may very well not be state related at all.
If you really believe that invasion of the country that allowed this to happen should be done, what happens if that country unknowably turns out to be Canada?
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Flamebait)
I disagree. It is our complacency that allowed them to breach security. Complacency should not be confused with Incompetence, in my book. I boarded a flight in the past three months where they did not even ask me the basics questions about how I handled my baggage. I knew that the ticket agent knew what she was supposed to do, and how to do it, and was probably capable of doing it well. She just didn't feel it was necessary any longer.
And if you don't think the US is capable of infiltrating _every_ plane in the offending country and ramming them into _every_ major landmark on their soil, you are a fool. Our guys would probably even live to tell about it, too. Thing is, we have laws that prevent us from doing exactly that. Funny thing too, the laws seem to be enough deterrent for the average United States Citizen. The attack was well planned, well executed, some might even say impressive. The biggest mass murder in history. On the scale of expertise available in the world, it was rank amateur. The Palestinians can rally in the streets today, and celebrate the mass extermination of human beings. I doubt they will have any streets in a few years, whether the US retaliates or not. That kind of hatred is a spiritual disease that will eventually lead to their own destruction.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Not that I'm condoning violence in any ay shape or form, (this act was utter atrocity), but your statement about Palestinians and immediately assuming they're responsible is bare-faced racism just like you accuse them of condoning. we have to remember at this time No group has claimed responsiblity and Arafat and even the Taliban have denounced the act. It is still unknown which group carried out the attack, and (I'm going to get modded down here), but the chance even holds that it could even be an American group (however small). We need to stop pointing fingers until there is sufficient evidence that this was an attack by group X.
We need to focus on the aftermath and helping the survivors, and sadly I'm over half a continent and a closed border away or I'd be out there now. I hope we can put it behind us and work on the task at hand first, before condemning potentially innocent groups.
This is where brains come in (Score:5, Insightful)
Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.
On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.
So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.
This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.
-- MarkusQ
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Correction: you don't have peace or security. You just got attacked.
Correction: those responsible are dead. They died attacking.
Correction: there is NO justice possible in this situation. Nor is peace possible.
There has to be retaliation for this, without a doubt. But it will not resolve the problem.
You might also want to think about why this attack occurred. How did the USA get into a position where someone hates it *so* much that they'd suicide themselves in revenge?
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
We need to be able to think of that _while_ also retaliating harshly.
The fact that we have been brutally attacked does not make us automatically righteous. I've felt for a long time that US interests, in many ways, have been waging war on the rest of the world- but more like a siege. Mostly we have not been gunning people down- mostly our corporations have not been gunning people down- and we certainly haven't engaged in this sort of all-out assault recently.
We're up again, and clearly we're going to be smashing the hell out of _somebody_... but we have got to take a minute afterwards, to ask: just how unprovoked was it? What have we been doing? Are we even aware of what our country may have been doing in our names? If more than half of us don't even _vote_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing with its massive weaponry and economic coercion, is that okay?
It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics. The fact that they are fanatics does not make us angels, and we gotta remain aware of that as we move into a 21st century and see multinational organizations taking over from nation-states.
And boy, are we ever in the 21st century. :(
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember when OKC happened Rush LImbaugh started calling for bombing of "whoever is responsible". Once we found that it was an American and that bombing "whoever is responsible" meant bombing Michigan Rush shut up. I guess killing innocent people is much more palatable in Iran or Iraq then Michigan.
In the end our tendency to look at Arab and Muslim life as basically worthless will determine the scope of the attack. Not the desire to punish the people who are actually guilty. My guess is many many innocent people will die as a result of our retaliation which will make us exactly like the monsters who committed these crimes.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:3, Insightful)
If possible, pepetrators of this kind of terrorism should be made to see the error of their ways, in the hopes of preventing future incidents. However, if that proves to be impossible, the only recourse is total annihalation.
I am a peaceful person. I would do just about anything to insure that we could all live harmoniously. But if other people force the issue into a "me or them" situation, I pick me, every time, and will defend that decision with ultimate force.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Keep that in mind as the US retaliates.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Interesting)
I won't offer any trite solution - I don't know whether a counterstrike of our own would be effective or not. I'm not saying that there's an obvious path, but what I do know is that today's act was not a random act.
We don't think we're at war because our homeland is (was) so isolated from the front lines, but America is involved in many wars through funding. And wars don't happen without funding. It's almost surprising that we're not attacked more often.
Today is an awful day. I am heartsick at all the loss that has occurred. But I am even more terrified of what is to come.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Israel has been waging an all out war on Hamas, and their killing innocents by the hundreds. As a result, Hamas is gaining popular support by leaps and bounds, and so is Saddam Hussein as he's been openly supporting Hamas. News reports have shown that the Iraqi flag is almost as prevalent as the Hamas flag in Palestinian refugee camps.
A complete pacifistic reaction does nothing. Not even a change in U.S. intervention in the middle east would change anything. Unmitigated reactionary violence however is tantamount to disaster. The US response must be precise, measured, and carried out with absolute lethality.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Neither is compromise the best option now. The United States should do it's best to identify the larger supporting organisations, and strike them so that the are unable to do this again. (We can't make them not want to do it again). This will involve killing many people, and it will involve collateral damage to civilians and loss of life for US military personel. That is unfortunate, but it should still be done.
The Canadian response, (I am a Canadian), should be to support the US in whatever action it takes. No more fence sitting. These are our friends and neighbours and they need our support.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
the target does not have to be absolutely accurate. scorching afghanistan and removing it from the map will remove nearly all of bin laden's ground troops and all of his civilian support. it may even make him a target from his own people.
Do you honestly think the people of afghanistan have any clue? Sure, some do, especially within the ruling Taliban government. BUT, many people in afghanistan are not a party to the Taliban. A many people in that nation have taken up arms against the Taliban. Some of them have not forgotten that many Americans and Brits fought alongside them against the Soviets.
Besides, Bin Laden isn't even an afghani, he's a Saudi and his supporters are scattered all over the world. By your grand scheme, we would have to Nuke Iran, Sudan, Yemen, and large portions of Ethiopia, Somalia, and countless other nations.
if you commit a terrorist act, or you know someone that commits or is planning a terrorist act against this country -- you should die. the trickle down effect of this will rid the world of this plague.
OR, you mobilize a couple billion Muslims against you. You kill one innocent, and their family is more likely to become a supporter of Bin Laden then the people who killed their loved one. The more you kill the more you drive into the arms of your enemy. If you don't believe me open any history book. One only needs to look at the numerous examples out there. The rise of Christianity in Ancient Rome, the aforementioned invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviets, the fall of the Khmer Rouge as well as any other Despotic system.
Re:But it *doesn't* solve things (Score:5, Insightful)
[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]
What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?
This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.
So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.
The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.
For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.
Live Streams of DC Police (Score:4, Informative)
Just Give Blood!!! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Just Give Blood Components! (Score:4, Informative)
I know a lot of places run people in to "donate" plasma - and then give the donors a check for a ~1 - 2 donation. The check structure is based so that those who need the income, are prompted to go in on a regular basis:
1st week:
Day 1 $25
Day 2 $15
2ND WEEK:
DAY 3 $20
DAY 4 $25
These places take in just about anyone, but test blood before thaey take it. There is usually long lines and it's uncomfortable.
If you don't like taking money for blood donations, check out Carter Blood Center. They will accept platelet donations 2x per week, and repay donors with the standard cookie / apple juice fare. It's also a longer process - about 1n hour, and you've got needles in both arms. But the nurses have to totally wait on you, and they let you bring in movies to watch, or watch the ones there. An excellent setup. As an added bonus, there's the excuse to drink two extra milkshakes a week - this is recommended to make up for the Calcium and protein loss.
Call first, make appointment (Score:4, Informative)
-Ben
http://www.nybloodcenter.org/ (Score:4, Informative)
I tried to give blood at 2500 Marcus (very near Long Island Jewish hospital) and I couldn't even get in the parking lot. I'll try again later or tomorrow. Please, if you are in the area, help out...
I feel so useless... giving blood is all I can do to help.
Here's the text of that URL in case it's down for whatever reason:
Re:Just Give Blood!!! (Score:5, Informative)
Geekoid, please note that you have done your part, two weeks ago. If that pint isn't used in the rescue effort, it may have stood in place of a pint that will be.
Anyone who has not given blood since 7/17/01 is eligible to give blood today (9/11/01). The Red Cross says that they will need donations all through the week. I expect that NYC will go into "Spaghetti surgery" mode and stabilize everybody they can today, then spend the next few days performing more permanent medicine as supplies arrive. Thus, people eligible to donate within the next week are encouraged to do so.
Red Cross Internet: redcross.org [redcross.org] (leads you to your local office, has news briefs, and is nearly slashdotted).
Red Cross Bellnet: 800-462-9400
Will someone post NYC donation data here, and someone else mod it up? That should save valuable phone lineage in NYC. I will post donation data if I can find it.
NYC Blood Donor Info--PLEASE MOD UP (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.
Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.
Giving Blood Wherever you live! (Score:3, Insightful)
More info (Score:3, Informative)
1-800-Give-Life (Score:5, Informative)
God Bless Google (Score:4, Informative)
Many online news services are not available, because of extremely high demand.
Below are links to cached copies of news sites as they appeared earlier today.
Breaking news: Attacks hit US [Washington Post - CNN.com (cached)]
Continuous Video Feed (Score:3, Informative)
BTW, they www.sky.com runs Solaris. So does washingtonpost.com - which was one of the few sites that was up. I don't promote Solaris - but it is interesting.
Donate Blood (Score:3, Insightful)
If you can't help this way please just go and donate blood today.
My prayers go out to the hundreds, if not thousands of families who lost a loved one today. NYC is my home town. All I can do from 1375 miles away I will.
Peace,
Sandor Urban
Better... (Score:3, Insightful)
September 11 = (Score:3, Informative)
Today is September 11th...
September 11th was also the date that certain conditions were reached under the Camp David accord, a treaty which terrorist groups have regularly rallied against.
PENTAGON != COLLAPSED INTO A HOLE! Stay off phone! (Score:5, Informative)
Plane crashed by the helliport, on the Southwest side. Most reports are that it hit between the E and D rings (outermost ring is E).
Not sure if this was the wedge that is currently under renovation or not.
There are confirmed dead adults in the building. None of the children in the daycare center were harmed. All of the children are accounted for and safe.
Verizon is asking everybody in the DC area to stay off of ANY phone line unless it is an emergency.
Just announced State of Emergency: DC and VA (Score:3, Informative)
Mayor Williams of DC has just declaired state of emergency in DC. DC Government closed.
VA Governor declairs State of Emergency.
Camp David airplane crash report is false.
Regan National Airport to remain closed until at least 1100 12 Sep 2001
Massive gridlock leaving DC, similar to the first flake of snow day in this area (locals will know what I mean).
Reminders that low flying aircraft around Dulles and National Airports are US MILITARY aircraft, NOT foreign.
Reminders to stay off the phone.
Re:PENTAGON != COLLAPSED INTO A HOLE! Stay off pho (Score:3, Insightful)
The worst thing about violence is that it causes people who were previously non-violent to become violent. Don't let the terrorists make you one of them!
Statement from Prime Minister of Canada (Score:5, Informative)
Immediate
STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien expressed his horror at the news that the United States has been the victim of multiple terrorist attacks :
"I was stricken by news and television pictures coming from the United States this morning. It is impossible to fully comprehend the evil that would have conjured up such a cowardly and depraved assault upon thousands of innocent people. There can be no cause or grievance that could ever justify such unspeakable violence. Indeed, such an attack is an assault not only on the targets but an offense against the freedom and rights of all civilized nations.
All Canadians are praying that the brave firefighters and rescue crews who currently on the scene will be successful in limiting the casualties. We stand ready to provide any assistance that our American friends may need at this very, very difficult hour and in the subsequent investigation.
Aline joins me in offering, on behalf of all Canadians, our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims and to the American people.
- 30 -
PMO Press Office: (613) 957-5555
This document is also available on the following Web site:
http://pm.gc.ca
AIRLINE INFORMATION (Score:4, Insightful)
Second: UA, 175, Boston=>LA, ?.
Third (Pentagon): AA, 77, Dulles=>LA, 64.
Four: UA, 93, Newark=>SF, ?.
Five: UA, Camp David.
Six: (PA crash),
Seven: (CO crash?), UA?, 175, =>LA?
Many planes still in the air, none currently threatened.
Crash Five may be a rumour. I keep seeing it scroll by on the TV, but I've read that it's been denied.
Re:AIRLINE INFORMATION (Score:5, Informative)
There are five confirmed crashes. The "Camp David" one is actually the PA crash; it crashed relatively close to Camp David. The flight number is still unknown.
I've got flight 175 listed twice. I haven't heard confirmation of the rumoured CO crash, so presumably it didn't happen.
All the flights were East Coast take-offs heading for the West Coast. This is not because LA or SF were under threat of attack, as some stations are stupidly reporting, but because these are the flights with the most fuel onboard.
Transalantic flights would have provided even bigger planes and more fuel, but security on them is more stringent than those for domestic flights.
Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.
I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.
Re:Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)
Something like this happens, and suddenly we're more willing to be lax on our liberties.
We can't let events like this damage the values and ideals that we live by. If we do, then they win.
WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.
Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.
Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.
Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.
Webcams in NYC and D.C. (Score:5, Informative)
Predictions (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, I hope and pray for the safety of all involved, and commend the rescue workers who are putting their lives on the line to save others. These people are heroes in the truest sense, and deserve our undying admiration and respect.
Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.
In a couple of weeks, I'm going to look like a prophet for this one. I predict that somebody will mention data security, including e-mail encryption. Whether correctly or not, somebody will propose it, and encryption, already a hot topic in National Security circles, will gain focus.
I predict that within a month, Congress will have drafted, and probably passed, a National Security Act to address the threat of terrorism. In that act, I fully expect to see severe restrictions on the use of secure data systems, including encryption of any form (e-mail, PGP file encryption/encrypted file systems, even SSH and SSL), anonymity (anonymous bulletin boards, including such things as Slashdot), and relaxation of wiretapping laws. E-mail will be required to be send in plaintext, Carnivore will be restored to active duty, and put on more servers with more keywords and more aggressive monitoring. Cell phones, already ruled to be not private, will be actively monitored by the government, as will landline phones--remember, cordless phones (you know you all have them) emit RF too, and the few that have scrambling systems are easily compromised.
Also expect to see civil liberties severely curtailed, at least for a while. Meeting with friends at odd hours (odd to the rest of the world, normal to geeks)? Suspicious. Phone calls to friends in other countries, or of other nationailities (particularly Middle Eastern)? Suspicious. Use of encryption/security? Suspicious squared--after all, what do you have to hide?
My big prediction, though, is that the American Sheeple will hail this as a Good Thing, and support it wholeheartedly. The Sheeple will automatically say that anything that improves security must be a Good Idea, and will fall into line without even considering the ramifications.
Mark my words, my friends: today has been one small step for terrorism, but one giant leap for the police state.
Re:Predictions (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Predictions (Score:5, Insightful)
A co-worker and I did the math on this. You need a minum of 4 people, 8 for better success. They have to coordinate... But: If they are people working at air ports (in bagadge handling or cleaning) they can get a weapon(s) on a plane. Security at US airports isn't exactly tight. Then you need someone who can fly an aircraft enough to steer, not take it off or land it. After take off, the armed party goes to the front bathroom, slips into the cockpit kills both pilots, and locks the door (or there is another person there for crowd control). You need one, but more likely two people per plane. In a country of 300 million, with our freedoms you have to look out for 8 guys.
--
locust
Well Great. (Score:4, Insightful)
Now that there's less action on the ground, we're getting all the "experts" in as talking heads.
And the unfortunate thing is that some of them are instigating racial hatred. Well, cultural hatred, at any rate.
The same thing is beginning to happen on Slashdot: wingnuts wanting to obliterate Palestian, and even some who want to nuke the entire mid-East.
GET A CLUE!
The US can't just walk in and kill every damn Muslim and Arab. That'd be a worse atrocity than the attack on the WTC -- and the retaliation would make today's events look like a trip to Disneyland.
There must be retaliation...but it must be rational!
Use your cluesticks with impunity. Contact your news stations and let them know that they're being destructive, not constructive; join the message boards and preach cautious, considered reactions; and remain calm.
[Please also note that more people die every day or two in traffic accidents, than were killed in the attack. It's a tragedy, but not much worse than the tragedy we live with every day... it's just that we don't expect terrorist attacks.]
Real Flight Information (Score:3, Informative)
-American Flight 11
Boston to Los Angeles
A Boeing 767 with 81 passengers, nine flight attendants, and two pilots aboard crashed into the World Trade Center.
-American Flight 77
Washington-Dulles to Los Angeles
A Boeing 757 with 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots crashed into the World Trade Center.
-United Flight 93
Newark, N.J. to San Francisco
A Boeing 757 with 38 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendants crashed southeast of Pittsburgh.
-United Flight 175
Boston to Los Angeles
A Boeing 767 with 56 passengers, two pilots and seven flight attendants crashed, but United won't say where
Baha'i Perspective (Score:3, Interesting)
BLACK BOXES (Score:3, Interesting)
--SC
NYC Hospital Locations -- DONATE BLOOD!!! (Score:4, Informative)
My boyfriend and I are going to Goveurnor's on the Lower East Side. You can also call 800.933.BLOOD (800.933.2566) for locations, but good luck getting through.
Peace, everyone.
Said After pearl Harbor (Score:3, Insightful)
"Your state government is prepared and ready to perform every defense task which has or will be assigned to it. The State of Washington is on the frontier of a great war. We do not know what the future holds in store for us. We do not know what trials we must go through or what sacrifices we will be called upon to make. We do know what is at stake. We know that our country, our liberties and our very homes are threatened. We are individually and as a nation being called upon to make good our pledge of allegiance to flag and country" (Seattle Star).
Terrorists want Retaliation (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.
All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.
What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.
what does this mean for our freedoms? (Score:3, Interesting)
all i can think is that this will only mean tightened security. i don't doubt that this might be cited for any number of measures to quash our right to bear cryptography. people will wonder who these folks are, and how they organized. "why," they shall wonder, "didn't the cia or fbi intercept their phone calls, emails, or whatever, and stop them before they acted?"
what do you think? are they right? do we need to give up our right to privacy to stop tragedies like this? i for one fear what may come of this, ontop of the seemingly staggering death count.
Help through RedCross (Score:3, Informative)
Visit American Red Cross at RedCross.org
Type your zip code to find your local Redcross chapter or call
1-800-GIVE-LIFE to make an appointment to donate blood.
On another note.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.
"Fight Club" not so funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Now seeing people jumping out of windows in terror, thousands crushed burned and killed, a city closed, an infrastructure disabled, and world on high-alert, it doesn't seem so cool anymore.
I feel the full effect of desensitization in the movies, and I am disturbed that I can't find the right words to communicate with friends who are in the midst of this crisis. Where can compassion be found? I'm not blaming the media for anything, I'm just sharply aware of the before and after I'm feeling toward fightclub vs. the real thing.
Re:"Fight Club" not so funny (Score:4, Informative)
They expect retaliation. What have they prepared? (Score:3, Insightful)
The terrorist group that has organized this attack is probably the largest and most organized. But how big are they? they are by no means in size and sophistication as the US, and cannot fight face to face, but will have instead prepared an other extreme action.
The attacks today were prime targets for 2 reasons. Casualties, and media impact. This has severely shocked America and the rest of the world. What must be done in the future to produce such horrific results?
News from Internet Exchange in SoHo (Score:5, Interesting)
Globix is located on Centre Street south of Canal Street. Businesses south of Canal have been asked to evacuate. The dust from the WTC collapse has forced buildings to shut down their air conditioning. Only a few large computer operations can operate without normal air conditioning, but major exchanges, like the AT&T telephone building and Globix, have backup cooling systems that should hopefully operate in these conditions.
Globix engineers are taking care of major service problems and trying to prevent potential major problems so they can leave as soon as possible.
Globix is hooked into the 3 largest backbones that pass through the region, and at least one must still be operating. Email messages originating from Globix are making their way out, but messages sent to Globix are not coming in.
A telephone call to (212-334-xxxx) from NJ (856-672-xxxx) got through, but no calls to the 718 area code are working. I just received a call from a 212 phone as well.
My friend at Globix was walking to a class at Sun Microsystems at the World Trade Center when the first plane hit. His view of the collision was obscured, and he was not injured. He commented:
> I ran down to the woolworth building and stood
> looking in shock at the North tower, the smoke
> billowing out of it and the thousands of papers
> fluttering down against the blue sky. Suddenly
> I saw something hurtling down the side of the
> building. It was a man, limbs, tie and suitcoat
> flailing. several more followed. I turned and
> slowly walked back towars the sunny, newly
> renovated park in front of city hall.
>
> I heard the second explosion hit, and people
> began screaming and running past me.
>
> As I sit here at my comfortable nest of a
> workspace, my skin crawls, and I feel sick to
> my stomach. I have read about events this bad
> or worse a hundred times in the novels my
> father derisively terms storybooks, but the
> reality is completely incomparable. Perhaps he
> had a point.
>
Another friend of mine was in the 70th floor of the second building to get hit, and he made it out alive. I don't yet have the details on that.
Transportation update (from a Brooklyn friend):
Subway lines are running off and on, and bridges and tunnels are closed to cars. The W line was still bringing people into Manhattan at 9:30, but that has ceased. The N/R is now running above 14th Street. Pedestrian traffic is allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. People in suits have been streaming over these bridges into Brooklyn all morning.
Historical Note:
Today, September 11, is the 28th anniversary of the CIA-led coup that overthrew the democratically elected government headed by Allende in Chile. Why is this relevant? I feel an immense amount of anger towards the people who caused this, and I think the people who caused this are the murderers sitting in Washington D.C. who direct U.S. foreign policy. They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world. We ruthlessly bombed civilian targets in Yugoslavia (including water purification sites); we starve the children of Iraq; we blockade Cuba for no good reason; we topple democratically elected socialist governments in order to install pro-U.S. dictatorships. My anger does not direct itself solely towards the government officials who have perpetrated these crimes. I am furious at the millions of Americans who voted for George W. Bush. They are responsible for putting into power a person who is walking all over international agreements about global warming and arms control. And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military and State Department do its dirty work has to take some responsibility for these murders. WAKE UP AMERICA: THIS IS YOUR FAULT. No missile defense shield will protect us from the hate that is justifiably spawned worldwide by our pro-corporate foreign policy.
Experience of an anarchist:
When the mail carrier knocked on my door this morning, I was worried that I was about to be taken in by the FBI. If you know what I've been through, you would not think this was a paranoid reaction. There will be a witchhunt following these events, and the U.S. government will probably use it as an excuse to harass activists. Right now the joint anti-terrorism task forces around the country spend most of their money tracking and harassing the anti-corporate activists who have been targeting world financial summits. A good chunk is also spent on the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, neither of which actually have any members; they are just slogans that autonomous cells apply to their acts of vandalism. Today's events show yet again that money spent on national security does not in fact serve national security, but rather serves the insidious ends of the people controlling this country. Expect there to be calls for more money to fund politically motivated witchhunts against the Left. Expect calls for outlawing consumer use of encryption.
Finally:
Eben Moglen, Columbia University Law Professor and general counsel of the FSF once said about the inevitable rise of encrypted communications:
I don't doubt that there will be downsides. You should accept the truth that harms will be caused, as harms are caused by free speech all the time. But don't let yourself be panicked about this. The world of the twenty-first century will be more free, and will continue to be, as the spooks often say, "a tough neighborhood." Indeed, some bombs will go off; there will be, in Stewart Baker's signature phrase, "some mangled, burnt bodies." You will notice that there are already. But fewer of them will be in Iraqi prisons; none of them will ever again be in a gulag or Lager maintained by a KGB or SS state with a tap on every telephone. And of that you should be very proud, because it is we who will have made it possible.
Radar image of New York (Score:4, Interesting)
(The link was spotted on BBSpot.com [bbspt.com])
Interesting Pentagon tidbits (Score:5, Informative)
Probably the most interesting thing that happened was talking to one of the officers who works at the Pentagon. She told me not to get any nearer (which I declined to listen to) and then said, I don't know if this was a joke or not, that I should try to stay alive so I could serve the country. God save us if we have to go to war!
DC is currently in a state of emergency, and almost all the streets are closed - it's pretty eerie. I walked by the state department, and the whole thing is shut down. There are cops and agents from every sort of government department everywhere - you literally can't go a block without seeing a handful sitting around or directing traffic or doing whatever they do. Washingtonians are being pretty calm, though, so there aren't any riots or looting or anything like that.
Just to give another view on the situation here in DC
From CNN, What's confirmed (Score:5, Informative)
In the first attack, a plane hits the north tower of the World Trade Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapse.
About an hour later, a plane crashes into the Pentagon, part of which later collapses.
American Airlines tells CNN that it lost two planes, both en route to Los Angeles: American Flight 11 from Boston with 81 passengers and 11 crew aboard is lost. This is believed, but not confirmed, to have been one of the planes that crashed into the trade center.
United Airlines loses two planes: United Airlines Flight 93 airliner headed from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, crashes near Somerset, Pennsylvania -- police say initial reports indicate no survivors.
FBI sources said all four planes that crashed had been hijacked.
The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in Washington are evacuated.
President Bush calls the crashes "a national tragedy." Later in the day, Bush issues a statement from Barksdale AFB near Shreveport, Louisiana. "Make no mistake: The United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."
In the first-ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights nationwide are stopped at their departure airports.
International flights are initially diverted to Canada; FAA says later, however, that 22 U.S.-bound international flights will be allowed to land.
Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, says in reaction to the terror attacks that "we want to tell the American children that Afghanistan feels your pain and we hope that the courts find justice."
In New York, more than 10,000 rescue personnel rush to the scene. Evacuation of lower Manhattan begins.
Israel evacuates all of its missions around the world.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta is evacuated. CDC prepares bioterrorism teams in case they become necessary.
Philadelphia landmarks are evacuated.
In Chicago, the Sears Tower is evacuated; United Nations in New York is evacuated.
Five battleships and two aircraft are deployed along the East Coast of the United States, and two aircraft carriers go to New York area, all from Norfolk, Virginia.
The New York Port Authority closes all bridges and tunnels into the city.
U.S. stock markets close after the New York attacks.
NATO sends home all non-essential personnel from its Brussels, Belgium, headquarters.
The Immigration and Naturalization Service puts the U.S. borders with Mexico and Canada on highest state of alert.
Los Angeles International Airport is evacuated.
Disney closes its parks in Orlando, Florida, and Disneyland in Anaheim, California.
FEMA implements plan established for such events: FBI leads investigation, and Justice Deptartment heads crisis management.
Three Palestinian groups -- Hamas, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Islamic Jihad -- deny responsibility for the attacks, but blame U.S. policies in the Mideast.
Mayor Anthony Williams of Washington, D.C., declares a state of emergency.
A Delta flight makes emergency landing in Cleveland and all passengers are safely evacuated. Federal officials search the plane for a possible bomb.
Inadequate fire protection systems (Score:5, Informative)
The World Trade Center had inadequate protection systems in the 1993 bombing; the truck bomb in the parking garage knocked out emergency power and the fire pumps. Last time, they didn't even have battery backup on the emergency lighting. The FEMA study of the bombing and fire [fema.gov] indicates only minor upgrades were made to fire protection systems; better emergency lighting and such. No improvements to sprinklers or new fire barriers were made, other than improving backup power to the fire pumps. Most of the improvements were to communications and control.
This was much worse than it should have been.
Re:Inadequate fire protection systems (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Inadequate fire protection systems (Score:4, Informative)
Apparently, the structural engineer that worked on the WTC would, he's quoted as saying I designed it for a 707 to smash into it.
http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-
Insurance Concerns (Score:4, Insightful)
And of course we have the World Trade Center towers themselves, who are probably insured for billions.
Well, watching CNN and various other news channels, I keep seeing that many politicians and journalists are calling this "an act of war"
Folks, what is the one thing that almost no life or property insurance policies cover? You guessed it: WAR!
We're going to have possibly tens of thousands of families who depended upon a primary wage-earner to survive. These families could potentially be told by insurance companies, "Sorry, but we don't have to provide coverage for your loved ones. It was war...".
Additionally, we will have whatever group of investors counts on rental income from the WTC go completely to pot, because their property insurance on the buildings will echo the same sentiment.
As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an act of war, it's an act of terrorism. The "war" clause in insurance policies is there as a last resort... it's meant to protect the insurance companies if half the major cities in the US get nuked to the ground. But I have no doubt that many of these companies will try to use this clause to their advantage.
I'm going to be sending a letter to my Senators and Representatives in a few days (obviously they have more important things on their minds right now) urging them to pass a temporary law that prevents insurance companies from pulling these sorts of sh> igans. I urge everyone else to do the same.
Structural design flaws or ... (Score:5, Informative)
Engineers shocked by
towers' collapse
BY BLAIR KAMIN
Chicago Tribune
CHICAGO -- The World Trade Center, a
symbol of American economic might, survived
one terrorist attack in 1993. It was designed to
withstand the impact of a jet, but both its
towers collapsed this morning after planes
rammed them.
The structural engineer who designed the
towers said as recently as last week that their
steel columns could remain standing if they
were hit by a 707.
Les Robertson, the Trade Center's structural
engineer, spoke last week at a conference on
tall buildings in Frankfurt, Germany. He was
asked during a question-and-answer session
what he had done to protect the twin towers
from terrorist attacks, according to Joseph
Burns, a principal at the Chicago firm of
Thornton-Thomasetti Engineers.
Burns, who was present, said that Robertson
said of the center, ``I designed it for a 707 to
smash into it.''
Burns, whose firm did the structural engineering
for the Petronas Twin Towers in Malaysia --
the world's tallest buildings -- said Robertson
did not elaborate on the remark. Robertson
could not be reached early Tuesday.
Completed in 1972 and 1973, the 110-story
twin towers were the fifth and sixth tallest
buildings in the world. One World Trade
Center, finished in 1972, was briefly after its
construction the world's tallest building. The towers have been called
``a monumental gate to New York and the United States.''
They withstood the 1993 attack, when a bomb-laden van exploded,
killing six people and injuring more than 1,000.
Closely spaced steel columns that ringed their perimeter held up the
World Trade Center towers. Chicago's Aon Center (formerly the
Amoco Building), completed in 1973, uses a similar support system,
known to structural engineers as a ``tube.''
Shocked by the building's collapse, structural engineers pointed to fire
as the likely cause of the structural failure.
``Fire melts steel,'' Burns said. In addition, he said, the impact of the
plane could have severely damaged the building's sprinklers, allowing
the fire to rage, despite fireproofing supposed to protect steel columns
and beams.
``You never know in an explosion like that whether they (the
sprinklers) get cut off,'' Burns said.
Architects Minoru Yamasaki and Associates, in association with
Emery Roth & Sons, designed the World Trade Center.
The structural engineers were the firm of Skilling, Helle, Christiansen,
Robertson. The developer was The Port Authority of New York and
New Jersey.
Tuesday's attack marked the second time that a plane has crashed
into a New York City skyscraper, although the first incident was an
accident.
In 1945, a B-25 flying at 200 miles per hour slammed into the 78th
and 79th floors of the Empire State Building, gouging an
18-by-20-foot hole 913 feet above the streets of Manhattan. The
pilot, Lt. Col. William F. Smith Jr., had been heading from New
York's LaGuardia Airport to Newark, N.J., when he became
disoriented.
Fourteen people died in the crash and the fire that followed -- three
people in the plane and 11 in what was then the world's tallest
building.
Like the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, which also was struck
by a plane, provided a sizable and symbolic target.
The Pentagon is the world's largest office building, with a total of 6.5
million square feet, serves as headquarters for the world's most
powerful military. Sears Tower, by comparison, has about 3.5 million
square feet of office space.
Why Palestinians might be pissed... (Score:5, Informative)
Well, perhaps because the USA has exacerbated the mid-East problems, rather than help reduce them.
From BigEye's Foreign Correspondent [bigeye.com]. No idea how truthful all this is, mind you, but I'm fairly sure it's worth consideration:
BUSH FIDDLES WHILE PALESTINE BURNS
NEW YORK - Pre-election concerns that George W. Bush had a weak grasp of world affairs have been confirmed by a succession of ideology-driven blunders and amateurish fumbles made by his administration that have damaged America's interests and image around the globe.
To whit: trying to rush the anti-missile defense project when there was no need for haste; the tactless rejection of the Kyoto environment accords; Washington's crude enlistment of India in a new anti-Chinese alliance; boycotting this weekend's UN racism conference at Durban: and, most disturbingly, fiddling while Palestine burns.
Who, one wonders, is running US foreign policy? Certainly not the nearly invisible `stealth' Secretary of State Colin Powell. America's first black Secretary of State was not allowed to go to an African-oriented conference in Durban because Israel was being accused of racism.
Last week, Bush berated PLO chief Yasser Arafat for failing to end `Palestinian violence.' Soon after, Israel assassinated Mustafa Zibri, a senior Palestinian political leader, by firing Maverick missiles from Apache helicopter gunships into his office.
The next day, Israeli M-60 tanks and M-113 armored personnel carriers occupied the Palestinian Christian town of Beit Jala.
Meanwhile, it has been revealed that Israel is using the M494 105mm APERS-T tank round against Palestinians. This deadly round, designed for use against enemy anti-tank missile crews, disperses a conical spray of 5,000 tiny, razor-sharp darts known as flechettes. In the past, Israel has also used anti-personnel cluster bombs against Palestinian refugee camps.
All of the above-noted weapons were supplied to Israel by the United States. Israel is also using an arsenal of other US-supplied weapons, from F-16 fighters to M-16 rifles, against Palestinians. Israeli-designed Merkava tanks `pacifying' rebellious Palestinians were built with US military aid.
Israel is the largest ever recipient of US foreign aid - at least $91 billion since 1949, a sum that could have bought four complete aircraft carrier battle groups ( about 80 ships) for the US Navy. Each year, Israel gets $3-5 billion in US aid.
The 1998 Wye River `peace' accords negotiated by President Clinton gave Israel an extra US $380 million for Apache helicopter gunships and armored vehicles - both currently being used against Palestinians. Just before leaving office, Clinton, quietly sent Congress a request for an additional US$800 million in military aid for Israel, a gift no doubt aimed at securing his future in publishing and Hollywood. Soon after, in a startling coincidence, Clinton received a book contract for $12 million.
Many American conservatives and Jewish Americans are praising Bush for giving Israel's rightwing government carte blanche to crush the Palestinian uprising and assassinate its leadership. VP Dick Cheney has repeatedly accused Palestinian of `terrorism' while praising Israel's `restraint.' One wonders what Washington's response would be if the PLO began assassinating Israeli politicians who advocate murdering or ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Israel brushes aside occasional tut-tuts from the US State Department, and ignores charges its American-supplied weapons are being used in direct violation of the US Arms Export Control Act, which forbids recipients use of American arms except for national self defense in wartime.
The White House and US Congress, fearful of antagonizing the Israel lobby, have refused to address this issue. Ironically, it was left to Gush Shalom, the courageous Israeli peace movement, to protest to Bush the clearly illegal use of American arms against Palestinians.
It is increasingly clear that unless the mayhem in Palestine is ended, the entire Mideast could careen towards an explosion. Ariel Sharon, Israel's rightwing Prime Minister, has painted himself into a corner by vowing to crush the `intifada' and never allow a viable Palestinian state. Having provoked the current uprising, and vowed to break its back, Sharon now finds himself trapped in a cycle of violence, terror and counter-terror.
Sharon's only answer so far is more of what he has done his entire career: blowing up houses, assassination, martial law, collective punishments. Now Sharon's aides are hinting at attacks against Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and even Egypt. Israeli critics are warning the Sharon is running amok and must be reigned in.
Given Sharon's adamant refusal to halt Jewish colonization or allow a Palestinian state, Palestinians have no reason to halt their uprising. Only America has the power to push the two sides into an eventual peace agreement.
Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinian `intifada' is being telecast around the globe, producing rage against Israel and its patron, the United States, and a worldwide surge of anti-semitism. America's strategic and economic interests across the Mideast and Muslim World are being threatened by the agony of Palestine, which inevitably invites terrorist attacks against US citizens and property.
President Bush needs to act urgently. He needs to help Sharon find a way out of the corner in which he is stuck. Sharon has left himself no line of political retreat - other than being seen to bow to irresistible American pressure. Bush and VP Dick Cheney should cease helping Israel's rightwing and its American media mouthpieces demonize Yasser Arafat, who, however guilty of condoning violence, is the man with whom Israel has to make peace. Being rightwing does not automatically make one right.
Bush's vanishing act over the Mideast has handed the initiative by default to Arab and Israeli extremists. Unless the US forcefully intervenes, Hamas suicide bombers and Sharon's death squads will determine policy. The result will be a disaster for Jews and Arabs alike.
Bush is being irresponsible and dishonest by pretending America has nothing to do with this horrible mess. America has everything to do with it and could stop the carnage overnight if the White House showed sufficient political will and courage. Bush needs to recall the old adage, he who pays the piper, calls the tune.
Copyright: Eric S. Margolis 2001
Again, perhaps this fellow is lying or out-to-lunch. But if what he states is truthful, I think it's fair to say that the fanatics have just cause to be pissed off (and that's not to say that they are excused for being terrorists.)
Pearl Harbor (Score:4, Insightful)
For those who don't seek vengeance, I can only say that you are likely not living in America. There will be a reckoning. Whoever did this, and it's looking like Bin Ladin, will be found an eradicated. Whoever is harboring them will be eradicated. Whoever defends them will be eradicated. War is now inevitable.
Good may eventually come of it, as good did eventually come from Pearl Harbor and WWII. But for the time being, we will be mobilizing, preparing for war. We were shocked. Now we are angry.
And anyone who says that we're going to war because "Bush is crzy enough to start one" as I've heard people say (though haven't looked closely on the forum here) is dead wrong. We will be going because it's the right thing to do. We need, firstly, to show the world that we will not be shaken by this, and to show the world what happens when you fsck with the USA. Any potential president, Bush, Gore, Nader, Bud Brown, Clinton, anyone would be looking for a perpetrator right now with the intent to kill. We can see this.
From a purely political standpoint, the nation is calling for vengeance. Any preisdent who sought re-election for himself or anyone in his party would commit political suicide otherwise.
This is edited slightly for content, mostly for length:
"The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. The United States was at Peace with the world. We have been looking towards the maintenacne of world peace. This attack was deliberately planned days or even weeks ago. The attack on our cities has caused damage to civilians and economic centers. Very many America lives have been lost.
The facts, so far, today speak for themselves. The American people have already formed their opinions, and well undertstand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. The commander in chief has directed our forces in our defense. Always, will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the America people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but we will make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us again. We will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.
This was an unprovoked and dastardly attack on the united states."
Franklin D. Roosevelt, December 8, 1941
December 7, 1941. A day that has lived on in infamy. September 11, 2001 will live on in infamy now as well.
Never again. Never.
Canadian Fighters Force Down Hijacked Jet (Score:4, Informative)
There is a report on the CBC website [www.cbc.ca] that Canadian Fighters have forced down two Korean aircraft [cbc.ca] in Whitehorse in the Yukon. It is believed that at least one of the jets was hijacked. It is currently surrounded by RCMP and the local Military from what I understand.
Here is the article since the site is hard to reach at the moment:
Suspect 747 escorted down in Yukon
WebPosted Tue Sep 11 15:44:33 2001
TORONTO - Schools and government offices in Whitehorse, Yukon were evacuated Tuesday as jet fighters escorted two commercial airliners to unscheduled landings, after aviation authorities suspected one of the aircraft may have been hijacked.
One of the airliners is a Korean Airlines 747, the other an unknown 747. Both landed at Whitehorse airport. The jet fighters continue to circle over Whitehorse.
Peter Novak of CBC Radio in Whitehorse told CBC News Online that aviation authorities said one of the aircraft may have been hijacked. Novak said highways in and out of town may have been closed, and a bomb squad was at the airport.
The identified Korean aircraft is believed to have been low on fuel and was redirected to Whitehorse.
Canadian transportation officials have also shut down all airports in Canada indefinitely as U.S.-bound international flights arrive on Canadian runways.
All domestic and international flights have been grounded as a precautionary measure after a series of attacks on high-profile targets in the United States.
Transportation Minister David Collenette says Canada is taking security very seriously and will be carefully monitoring the situation.
Prime Minister Jean Chretien has condemned what he called a "cowardly attack" south of the border and pledged full assistance to the U.S. He assured Canadians to remain calm, noting that the government was increasing security.
Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs has issued a phone number for anyone worried about friends or family in the New York area. Spokesperson Marie Lilkoff says Canadians can call 1-800-387-3124 for information.
U.S. flights diverted to Canada
The United States Federal Aviation Authority had earlier ordered all international flights to the United States to be diverted to Canada.
Airports throughout Atlantic Canada are beginning to receive a large influx of flights. Moncton, N.B., and St. John's, Nfld., expect up to 25 diverted planes, and CFB Goose Bay in Labrador expects close to 60 unscheduled landings.
Halifax airport says they currently have 23 planes on the ground and expect 27 more. The RCMP will search all of the passengers' luggage and they will be transported to large sports facilities in the city for the night. All the hotels in Halifax are full.
Passengers arriving in St. John's will be put up in hotels, conference centres and private homes. Many Toronto residents are also offering their homes to travellers stranded at Pearson Airport.
"All Canadian airspace has been closed other than for inbound overseas flights," said Calgary Airport Authority spokesperson Mike Cunnington.
Effects across Canada
All Canadian border traffic to New York state is limited. Border guards are on high alert and inspecting all vehicles, said Serge Charette, national president for the customs union. He says travellers with a valid reason to be in either country will be allowed through.
The Chief of Maritime staff in Halifax has ordered a lock-down and has posted guards at the gates the navy dockyards and the Shearwater air base.
The rocket-proof gates of the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa were surrounded by police cruisers and plain-clothes officers. Public Affairs officer Buck Shenkman says security will increase, but the embassy will remain open.
The Canadian Blood Services is urging people to contact their local donor branch in a cross-country effort for blood donations to ship to emergency centres in the U.S.
In Ontario, Premier Mike Harris offered his province's full support to the U.S. government, including medical support.
Many office complexes in Toronto allowed their employees to leave work as a precaution, jamming subways and the downtown train station. The CN Tower has also been shut down.
The CN tower belongs to the World Federation of Tall Towers, along with the World Trade Centre and the two work together frequently.
"Quite a few of CN Tower staff work with World Trade Center staff. There was a lot of back and forth travel in the last month. We both belong to the same industry association and this tragedy has hit us personally," commented Bud Purves, President and GM of the CN Tower.
Written by CBC News Online staff
reflection on comments posted (Score:4, Interesting)
I kept thinking about that village. I wondered what it would feel like, to feel afraid for your life, to not know where they might strike next.
Now I know. Today at work I kept looking out the window, reassured to see the un-marred Houston skyline. I thought of the many possible stategic sites that could be hit in Houston, of refineries that could spew poisens for days, of skyscrapers here full of people.
And I thought of that Palistinian village. They've been living with this kind of terror for months, even years.
This attack did not occur in a vacuum. Certainly those responsible committed a horrible act. But responding with another horrible act wouldn't help. Do we blow up Afghanni families, just in case it was Osama Bin Laden? Do we push the Israelis to attack large Palistinian areas, only to find it was another Timothy McVey?
Regardless of whether one agrees with the current administrations foreign policies, it would be reasonable to recognize a very real arrogance in the dispensation of those policies. The United States acts like it is the invulnerable master, the king of the hill, casting justice and consensus aside. Just this week the US refused to participate in a UN conference on racism. We do anything we want, and dare anyone to try and do anything about it.
Someone did. It would only make things worse to react in an agressive military fashion. Certainly justice must be served, but it should be measured, accurate and appropriate.
America is a special place, luckier than most humans have ever seen. We spend most of our time planning parties and designing toys. When something like this happens we should step back, look at the BIG picture, and reflect - what have we done to help? Has any one of us written to a congressman, expressing concern over continued financial support of the heavy-handed Israelis? How many of us even NOTICE what our foreign policy is?
Several media reports have referred to this as a second Pearl Harbour. We would be wise to recall that our enemies in that conflict are now some of our staunchest allies. Also forgotten was the American blockade of fuel oil to Japan, precipitating the attack.
This morning the first person I talked to after I heard the news was a black man in an auto parts store. He was lamenting the fighting in the middle east, pointing out that here in Houston such strife is all but unthinkable. The Hispanic parts salesman and I agreed.
The United States is a unique culture, made up of disparate cultures themselves sometimes at odds with each other in their respective homelands. Now one of these conflicts has struck our home. A strong response is appropriate, but we should also look at our actions and attitudes, and take what measure of responsibility is ours. Then, maybe instead of dealing with a symptom, we can address a cause - perhaps even right a wrong.
Re:Nostradamus (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Nostradamus (Score:4, Insightful)
Please, put your doomsayer sandwichboards down and stop ringing the bells.
(Not you Diomedes, you talk sense)
Smid
Re:Nostradamus (Score:3, Funny)
This is not Nostradamus (Score:5, Interesting)
As I posted in a similar thread on the earlier story, this is not from Nostradamus, but rather an attempt by the author of the site (who does NOT claim to be psychic) to show how, given a vague "prediction", that something in the future will fit it. Seems to have backfired, tho.
But, I suppose that some people would rather believe it is from Nostadamus, and feel 'eerie' about it, rather than facing the truth, and seeing that it is just a coincidence.
Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour (Score:3, Informative)
You're right, it is MUCH WORSE (Score:4, Informative)
It is not
Pearl Harbor was an attack during a time of global war on a military installation that cost a total of 2,403 lives.
This attack occured during a time of peace on civilain installations and the death toll is being estimated at over ten times that of Pearl Harbor (at least).
Re:I hope... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is certainly one of the worst things I have ever witnessed, and that includes being in London during IRA bombings.
I just have been thinking: who on Earth is going to take responsibility for this?? As soon as one has spoken up, yes, he will be a flat spot on the wall.
An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind (Score:5, Insightful)
Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.
Loss of Life and Perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.
> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.
This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.
> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.
What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.
> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.
Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.
> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.
It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").
Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.
Virg
Re:How to Donate Blood (Score:3, Informative)
no no... I'm kidding... really
The Cdn Blood Agency has lots of locations, might even set up triage sites for those situations needing "emergency" supplies. Check your local phone books for numbers to contact the Canadian Blood Services.
I just donated a few weeks ago so I can't give again. Those people who don't donate because they "can never find the time" should get off their asses now.
Re:Webcams (Score:3, Insightful)
That footage of the South Tower getting hit by the 757(?) is just chilling.
Re:Oh christ, the politics already... (Score:3, Insightful)
Attempting to destroy New York City is beyond politics- that's war. The response will be war.
But the _causes_ of this are politics. I've seen a few brave posters from outside the US saying, "Um, you really think this is unprovoked?" and they should be listened to.
In my opinion, we are obviously heading into a world where the nation-state is no longer the focus. I've heard the terrorist organisation responsible for this is multinational and extends all over the world. That's much like the corporations we have, which do things like try and sue Indian farmers over growing rice that was native to India in the first place, which try and tie economic relief to a political system, which try and inflict our screwed-up intellectual property notions on the rest of the world- and those guys are multinational too, and often with economic coercion to rival actual countries.
I'm not sure there is a country that could have done us as much damage, in a conventional military attack, as this multinational 'terrorist' organization did in its attack.
As to the democrat/republican thing: hell, I voted Green/Progressive, and lost. I believe if Gore had won, this day would still have happened. BOTH the Dems and Reps represent a particular type of American political system- one that obviously has insane, fanatical enemies.
The fact that the enemies are fanatics making suicide attacks does not make the American political system right. The fact that we need to fight back now does not make us blameless- we just happen to be the ones expected to deliver the counterstrike. When we've done that, we damn well better take a look at whether we're really 'all that and a bag of chips' ourselves. How can we face ourselves knowing that our country wields huge force in the world, and yet half of us won't even vote for _President_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing? That's got to stop- we've got to smarten up and take responsibility.
If we want all the world to _agree_ that we aren't 'the great satan', we have got to pay closer attention to what our country, our capitalist economic system, our political system, are doing out there. This didn't come out of nowhere. We've known about the resentment for a long time, over all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways, and mostly we've just flat out ignored anyone who dared to suggest we weren't the apex of creation.
Once we've got through this next bit, we have _got_ to grow up...
Re:WAR! (Score:5, Insightful)
Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).
Re:visit a mosque (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, I know enough to know that it is ONLY the most radical and a minority of Islamics who preach violence. Most, if not all, condemn such CSCB terrorist acts. It would be victory for the chicken-shit-coward-bastard (CSCB)-terrorists if they could take these sad events and make us hate our Islamic neihbor.
While we may disagree about God and country, I would prefer to debate our differences over some cold beer and hummus, as opposed to hot lead and fire.
Re:The Twin Towers should NOT have collapsed!!!... (Score:4, Informative)
A 707 is a MUCH smaller plane. It's MUCH smaller than than a 747 and still smaller than the 757's that were involved.
Get your facts straight.
The towers survied the impact. They did not survive the fire.
Just because a bullet proof vest can stop a bullet doesn't mean it will prevent you from burning alive.
Same applies to this. The supports were destroyed by the extreme fire.