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Amiga

New Sharp Zaurus Will Host Amiga Under Linux 110

Kozmik writes: "As somebody who once owned a fair number of Amigas, I still hold hope that one day they will make a comeback. This deal with Sharp will hopefully give the new AmigaOS some credibility. Since the new OS runs on top of many operating systems, including linux, includes one of the fastest Java virtual machines (provided by the TAO group), and has a shipping SDK, Sharp decided to partner with Amiga and its developer community rather then try to reproduce all of that. The end result is that the new Zaurus will become another AmigaOS platform." (Q: If a new Amiga falls out of a tree, is anyone harmed? A: It depends what year the tree is in.)
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New Sharp Zaurus Will Host Amiga Under Linux

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    Come on, it is now April 2 and it's time to stop posting these hoax stories.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Atari still rules.
  • Here [programmazione.it] are some pictures of Sharp`s Zaurus running those famous Boingball demonstrations which you are included with the Amiga SDK.

    There are tons of interesting information available on the Amiga News Network [www.ann.lu].
  • An OS on an OS sounds like a virtual machine.
  • An operating system that runs on top of Linux? That's not an operating system, is it?

    Well in that case, Linux isn't an OS either [ibm.com]. And neither is NT [vmware.com].

  • by Psion ( 2244 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @06:07AM (#320808)
    Having used Amigas for years for various applications, I'm fond of the machines, but a little hard pressed to figure out how an Amiga like the one that sits under my desk at home could possibly compete in today's market. A faster processor alone won't do it. A better interface is needed. Improvements to Exec and provisions for protected memory environments, too. The dependence on Agnes, Denise, and Paula has to be tossed, also. And when all of this is done, and the new system with the name "Amiga" debuts, it won't be the same one that hit the scene 16 years ago.

    It might have the same name. It will probably perform better, but it won't be the same machine. If this new Amiga is a great box/interface/whatever, then I might buy into it; the name will be enough to cause me to give it serious consideration before deciding one way or the other. But I won't be fooled into thinking that there is a direct lineage between it and the computer with all those signatures inside the case.
  • Not if the NEW Amiga is any good, no.
    I can't see any logical erason why an extra platform that can do good stuff is an inhereently bad thing.
    it isn't - if the new Amiga is any good at what it is meant to do then the Amiga name is just as much a part of computing today as it was of computing 10-15 years ago.
  • > AROS are acting as the "Mozilla" to Amigas "Netscape"

    With at least one major difference. Netscape released Mozilla under the MPL. AROS still aren't clear what their licencing terms (if any) are. There are several contradictory statements on their web site, including http://www.aros.org/index-1.html#8 which says "this has to be overworked. Right now, it is not possible to license AROS. Watch this space for further updates", as it has done for months.

    --
  • by armb ( 5151 )
    It's (arguably) an operating system for a virtual machine. If you run Linux on VMware on Windows, or Windows on VMware on Linux, they don't stop being operating systems. Versions that run directly on real hardware are supposed to be coming later.

    There aren't always clear boundaries between the operating system and applications or application development frameworks, especially in a microkernel (or exokernel) architecture.

    People aren't entirely joking when they describe Emacs as an operating system.

    --
  • I don't know much about Amiga's, I never used them. I do know that BeOS was supposed to have some shit hot multimedia capabilities. It was built from the ground to do that kind of thing. It still died, at least as a desktop OS. What makes you think that AmigaOS will succeed where BeOS couldn't?
  • by GypC ( 7592 )

    You're right, it's more of a software platform.

  • by ch-chuck ( 9622 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @08:09AM (#320814) Homepage
    7. You're reading a trade mag which tells you that a certain popular operating system of the 80s is making a comeback. In plain terms this means:

    A. Serious development has produced results at OS/2 central
    B. Serious money has produced results at VMS central
    C. Guru Meditation has produced results at Amiga central
    D. Alcohol has produced results at the editorial office
  • >the Apple II and the C=64 weren't 10 years ahead
    >of their time performance-wise

    No, but they were both very significant for other reasons.

    -LjM
  • Accessibility.

    The Apple // line was the first truly mainstream personal computer aimed at the home.

    The Commodore 64 was a reasonably powerful (for the time) computer that could be purchased for under $200.

    Those are significant.
  • I've wondered about this myself.

    I liked my Apple //e's and Commodore 64s Back In The Day(tm), but I have no desire to use either one ever again.

    As fun as those machines were, something about my modern P3 and UltraSparc-based systems makes me a little less than nostalgic.

    Maybe it's that the memory is a little more ideal than the reality was. Go back and watch a TV show or movie you LOVED when you were 9 and see how it doesn't really stand the test of time.

    -LjM
  • They've got the marketing, but I'm not seeing this technology.

    Vapor.
  • But, later in the post, "...the new OS runs on top of many operating systems, including linux". So, which is it? Over or Under?

  • Amiga is dead! Long li....

    oh wait never mind. Get over it people, there was an aimga, but there is no amiga, and there won't be an amiga in the future.


    --Gfunk
  • every time I see an article about the rising phonix called Amiga, can't help thinking that maybe the Amiga should be left in the past.

    Every time I see an article about the Amiga, I can't help wondering how long it'll take for someone to post one of these pointless "just let it rest in peace" comments. And I also can't help wondering if it'll be moderated up to 5.

    I've never yet been disappointed.

    Just filter Amiga-related news out using your account preferences.

    -Stephen

  • But put a 700 MHz Linux box right next to a 50 MHz Amiga (which is exactly the situation that I have at home) and then copy a few megabytes from a CD to hard disk. See how slow the GUI gets?Now try it on the Amiga. Ah, smooooooth.

    The answer to this, sir ,is to abandon IDE and use decent SCSI hardware.

  • Who says that you will have to use JNI? The only thing that I ever needed (highly anecdotal!) was a function to return the amount of free diskspace for a directory. Fortunately, there is a library that covers many operating systems (JConfig).
  • File only has methods to get the size of a single file or list the set of files in a directory.

    But if it worked for you, please tell me how you did it!
  • Hey, Digi-Paint wasn't written in Assembler. [Digi] was the original HAM mode paint program, and was pretty slow at the time (but still useable). You're thinking of Brilliance, the wicked fast paint package that took, I believe, 5 man years of coding.

    Still, DPaint really did cane, although it was slower towards the end. I'm amazed there isn't a paint program like it for Linux.

    Dan.
  • There are some successful examples of very big Pure Java applications running cross-platform. Borland's JBuilder [borland.com] and TogetherSoft's Together [togethersoft.com] are two very notable examples.

    JNI doesn't necessarily mean platform-dependance, just that you have to provide equivalent functionality for the other platforms you support, whether that's in Pure Java or using JNI calls. For example, you could use JNI methods to write log information to the Event Log on Windows NT/2000, or normal Java I/O to write to standard text-based log files on any UNIX-compatible system. That doesn't mean you're platform-dependent.

    (Note very carefully - I'm not saying Java is truly platform-independent; just cross-platform capable without a ton of porting work or a complete recompile.)

  • I imagine that a slot based card is cheaper than that, however it is a slightly move awkward shape for a small case.

    The slot might also allow two PPC chips to be mounted onto the card - I don't know for sure though, but the IBM CPC710 PPC northbridge supports two PPC CPUs (and is presumably the chip used in dual processor macs).
  • Well, they were showing off real hardware at St Louis over the weekend (only Amiga could hold a convention over April Fools). This is going to happen. It might not be CHRP, as that spec is quite old now. It will be better. How better, I don't know.
  • by hattig ( 47930 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @06:32AM (#320829) Journal

    Remember folks, the Amiga DE is basically a fast VP and Java core with a lot of supporting applications and software. Amiga is being used as a brand name here. The Amiga DE is not the old Amiga OS or Amiga hardware in any way, form or manner. It could have been called the "Haddock Java and VP engine from the company called Amiga".

    However, Amiga Inc are also working on Amiga OS4.0 (PPC native Amiga OS, July 2001), OS4.2 (AmigaDE host, December 2001), OS4.5 (new front-end, etc, July 2002) and OS 5.0 (SMP, December 2002). There is a lot of info in the amigaone group at groups.yahoo.com, also at http://ann.lu/ and http://www.amigart.com/.

    New Amiga hardware is almost here as well. PPC motherboards that will also run Linux from bPlan, etc. A lot of people on Slashdot want PPC motherboards - now you will be able to get them. There will be several makes, all conforming to the zico specification from AInc (6 PCI slots, AGP, PC133 memory, CPU slot for PPC ships (PPC processors are CBGA chips, so they need a slot based interface unless you mount them directly to the motherboard - no PGA processors like those from Intel and AMD), Firewire, USB, etc).

    Have a laugh at the Amiga Politics. There are 3 Amiga OSs now - AROS (x86 native), MorphOS (PPC native) and now the official AmigaOS4.x from Amiga. The people don't get along with each other in general, although AROS are acting as the "Mozilla" to Amigas "Netscape" and MorphOSs "Netscape". So for a general idea of the next gen Amiga OS, look no further than AROS with bells and whistles attached. :-)
  • by xtal ( 49134 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @06:09AM (#320830)

    The wonderful intergration of custom chips and a well designed OS (Guru errors aside, but that was class - nice, evil-looking flashing red error box!) and a dedication to the hacker community at large is what made the Amiga succeed in spite of everything Commodore did do kill it (although they eventually succeeded). How many computers and video cards do you know that actually ship with hardware schematics, now?

    What's needed is someone to take hardware - be it G4 hardware, GF3 chips, whatever, standardize on it and then say "WE WILL SUPPORT THIS TILL DEATH DO US PART". This lets software developers push that metal to the limit, just like they did on the Amiga.

    Hey Redhat: You want to get onto the desktop in a big way? Use some of that IPO cash to cut a deal with some hardware vendors. Make a sleek box, it doesn't even have to be X86. Just put state of the art 3D hardware in there; Fund the development of the API's to make it happen, e.g. OpenGL, SDL, whatever - and then make sure that the hardware runs out of the box. Need to get NDA's from NVidia? Fine - just make sure that it works with your product. Give people the platform, and good things will happen. The platform isn't just linux, and it's not just hardware, either.

    That's why all these Amiga resurrections fail. They miss the point of what made the Amiga grand. Does anyone else remember Digi-Paint? The product that bragged about the engineers spending months hacking a pure assembly paint package? That thing was FAST. And it had a spirit to it, too. (*Grin* all those ads with Kiki.. I wonder what Newtek is doing these days..)

    My $0.02cdn.

  • How so?
    --------
    Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
  • The difference between the Apple II, The C=64 and the Amiga is that the Apple II and the C=64 weren't 10 years ahead of their time performance-wise, and (indefinite) years ahead of their time design-wise. The Amiga was.
    --------
    Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
  • by pos ( 59949 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @05:56AM (#320833)
    Come on guys...

    April Fools Day is over. Enough with the impossible stories; I mean who would believe that Amiga was making a comeback really?

    -pos

    The truth is more important than the facts.
  • I haven't seen this system in action yet, but it's hard to believe that anything running on top of an OS like Linux is going to have satisfactory performance for Amiga end users.

    Linux has a lot of neat things going for it, and x86 boxes are awefully fast these days, especially compared to 68k-based Amiga hardware. But put a 700 MHz Linux box right next to a 50 MHz Amiga (which is exactly the situation that I have at home) and then copy a few megabytes from a CD to hard disk. See how slow the GUI gets? Now try it on the Amiga. Ah, smooooooth.

    People tell me that it's a good "feature" when a modern dynamic-scheduling OS keeps low-priority processes from starving even if it means that high-priority processes have to slow down a bit. Well, once you've used an Amiga, you know that "feature" is worse than useless. Maybe it makes sense for servers, but if you're running a GUI and there's a user sitting there who expects the machine to be snappy, it just doesn't work. (Low priority tasks are supposed to starve when the GUI needs to update! I don't give a rat's ass if copying a 20 Megabyte file takes an extra 400 milliseconds, but I sure as hell do care if the GUI ever makes me wait that long!)

    This was one of the reasons that QNX Neutrino looked so promising. With a realtime kernel, you should be able to guarantee that the GUI keeps up with human perception. QNX Neutrino had the potention to meet (or even exceed!) Amiga users' expectations. With something like Linux, the GUI's responsiveness is held hostage by the machine's load. (And apparently even an I/O bound process is enough to screw things up?!)

    Let's hope that Tao avoids the same technological mistake that Windows and Unix made. Otherwise, it seems unlikely that users of ten-year-old Amigas will be interested in downgrading to the "technology" of the 21st century.
  • I would like to note that, thanks to the massive number of April Fools' posts on Slashdot yesterday, I now find myself second-guessing the validity of every story posted. One or two April Fools' stories would've been enough, but Slashdot, you really hurt your credibility a bit in my eyes...
  • aren't "user," "idiot," and "fool" all synonyms?

  • Laughing My Ass Off
  • Amiga OS is NOT, repeat, NOT coming on Sharp PDA's. the Amiga DE API layer *is* coming on Sharp PDA's. The Amiga OS is being released on new customized hardware, code-named zico, that uses matrox video cards and SBLive! Sound cards. The new hardware uses a PowerPC CPU, and will cost about as much as a G4 tower. Way to go Amiga, make a new Macintosh. But it's nice that AmigaOS is getting an upgrade.
  • You've mixed up things. AmigaOS will be running only on it's own customized hardware. The AmigaDE API layer is what you are mentioning, and it's very different from AmigaOS. AmigaDE allows binary compatability, AmigaOS does not. AmigaDE is dog-slow, AmigaOS is not. Of course I can understand the confusion, this article is purposefully worded to mislead you.
  • by downix ( 84795 )
    I agree here, with the addedd point that the Phoenix Developer Consortium are working on such a box already, using the QNX RtP OS for the operating system and a new customized/well documented hardware solution. So cross your fingers.
  • Fine me the DE ASM app that'll toast a native ASM app. Hint, it cannot be done, period. So go back into hiding you Anon coward, emphysis on coward.
  • The new AmigaOS will be bloatware too, or hadn't you noticed the severe bloat of AmigaOS 3.5/3.9? What used to come on 5 floppies now barely fits into a CD-ROM w/ it all compressed. Great anti-bloat don't you think?
  • then let's use LISP then, which kicks C in the teeth when compiled.
  • I did look. A handful of moviles and sound clips, but mostly utilities, shareware that that. Heck, critical necessities in today's internet culture are shareware in the CD, like the TCP stack.
  • What makes you think that AmigaOS will succeed where BeOS couldn't?
    The Amiga actually has a lot of applications.
  • Where's the "-5, Tim Rue" mod option?

    .-. .- -.. .. --- -....- .- -.- - .. ...- .. - .-.- - ...-.-
  • It would be really great to see the new amiga OS take off. They have the technology there to pull it off, now they just need the marketing.

    Cross-platform programming with the new amiga OS is really great: you have one generic binary labeled progname.00, and when you run it on your system, it recompiles it into a native binary, say, progname.03. There is a different suffix for each platform that amiga supports, and any program written for the generic new amiga platform can be run on any platform that new amiga supports... even if that platform did not exist when the program was originally written!
    -----
  • Is an operating system that runs on top of another operating system really an operating system, or just a shell/SDK/whatever?

    Well at the moment it's an SDK, but there were plans to run Amiga DE native.

    If I run GNU/Linux on VMWare is GNU/Linux a shell/SDK/whatever?
  • BeOS personal edition could be taken as an OS that runs on WinXX and Linux. Since you install it and launch it from WinXX and/or Linux.
    --
  • by zpengo ( 99887 )
    An operating system that runs on top of Linux? That's not an operating system, is it?
  • The end result is that the new Zaurus will become another AmigaOS platform...

    I didn't see anything in there about AmigaOS, just software developed by Amiga.

    This is a statement on the Amiga site saying that "The Amiga OS can run hosted on Linux, Embedded Linux, Windows 95, 98, 2000, NT, CE and QNX4," but this strikes me as someone strange. Is an operating system that runs on top of another operating system really an operating system, or just a shell/SDK/whatever?

  • "Hey Redhat: You want to get onto the desktop in a big way? Use some of that IPO cash to cut a deal with some hardware vendors. Make a sleek box, it doesn't even have to be X86. Just put state of the art 3D hardware in there; Fund the development of the API's to make it happen, e.g. OpenGL, SDL, whatever - and then make sure that the hardware runs out of the box. Need to get NDA's from NVidia? Fine - just make sure that it works with your product. Give people the platform, and good things will happen. The platform isn't just linux, and it's not just hardware, either. "

    I really like this idea. Though it sounds similar to what the Indreama is doing, if this were a sub $1K b0x (with no monitor, just let me put it on a switch with my current b0x), I'd definately be interested in it.
  • Maybe you should give Newtek's Aura2 [newtek.com] a try... Although it's not DP, it's pretty cool and got a little bit of the amiga-app-feel...

    Me think's it's pretty kool.

    --

    "I'm surfin the dead zone
  • How's about a new version of the classic Amiga OS running natively on PPC? That's exactly what they announced at St. Louis. According to Bill M., Amiga OS 4.0 will be out by Summer native on PPC. 4.2 will follow shortly followed by 4.5 and 5.0 next year. The AmigaDE will be folded into OS 4.5 or 5.0 (I forget which exactly). Check out this link [yahoo.com] for a breakdown of what the plans are (posted by Fleecy Moss).

    -Sam

  • Ya know, I'm surprised that I haven't seen any insightful commentary here on this - AmigaDE (NOT AmigaOS, there's a difference) actually does hold at least one interesting promise.

    While JavaVM presents the ability to be cross-platform, it really only does so with a single language - Java. Not one of my favorites. AmigaDE, on the other hand, is more like C# in the idea that it isn't nessisarily tied to a single language. But even that isn't THAT Earth shattering.

    The real issue here is a single methodology for all platforms, and basically a single 'desktop' environment for all platforms. Yes, there are ways of doing this now, but quite a few of them are far from being slick, and many of them aren't ready for things like being plopped into a PDA OR a desktop machine - one or the other. AmigaDE is designed to be ready for both (does it really live up to that? Well, that's a different story - I can't really vouch for it!)

    Many persist that Amiga is a dead platform. Well, in some ways they are right - going out and buying an A1200 or A4000 right now probably isn't the wisest course of action (I'm sure some Amiga advocates will jump me about that because of the PCI connectors and PPC cards, etc. But seriously...!) But on the flip side of that, there's the AmigaDE which is a run-anywhere 'OS' (or application framework really), and then the whole roadmap for AmigaOS 4 & 5. Amiga seems to have a fairly good head of steam behind them, and a fairly good plan. I'm acutally planning on buying one of the new AmigaOS based G4 boxes when they come out - AmigaOS 4 + a nice speedy processor and the Matrox video card onboard should really make for a machine to make people drool again when they see how snappy it's UI is (and, hopefully, it once again raises the bar on 'multimedia'). The original Amiga is dead - but, that's not a bad thing. How many people have whined that x86 machines suck because of all the legacy support behind them, and that we should just chuck it all and start from scratch. Well, Amiga got that chance really, and is taking it.

    They are a company to watch - but, just don't expect them to be taking on Microsoft really. More likely than not, they are going to be picking up the nitche market that Be held for a while, chipping at the Macs, and probably even getting in the road of Linux a little. Sounds like a good thing to me - everyone get forced to be a little more competitive again.

    Ok, I put on the flame retardant suit. Do your worst.

  • You haven't tried BeOS - the GUI and user responsiveness was one of the systems highest design priorities. Its just as responsive as what the Amiga used to be like, but on modern hardware.
  • No, i think thats an application!
  • Actually Apple has found a way around using a slot. Take a look at the inside of an Apple G4 minitower - the CPU is mounted to a PCB, along with the L2 cache. That PCB then has pins to fit in a socket on the motherboard. It isn't a socket like a Socket 370, but a more compact socket about 5cm long by 1.5cm wide.
  • Although I agree to some extent, there is a difference. The Amiga's hardware and the PC's hardware are hardly comparable. If those were SCSI drives you were using, I think you would find that the GUI remains responsive and smooth, and CPU utilization remains low. Even if you were copying from an IDE CDROM to a SCSI hard disk, you would see similar results. While copying from an IDE device to another IDE device, each read and write effectively interupts any other IDE read or write for a quantum. Additionally, IDE requires the use of the CPU to issue instructions to the drives for IO. So while copying, the OS must tell the GUI to hold on for a small amount of time to allow a block of data to be read, then written.
  • You're probably correct. The reason Apple chose the minisocket is because they are the only manufacturers of Apple motherboards, and therefore compatability, they only have to accomodate one design, that doesn't need to be compatable with multiple cases, motherboards, designs, etc. In turn they can bolt the assembly to the motherboard and still not sacrafice much motherboad space. And of course apple has never been known for cost effective designs.
  • I loved my Amigas (500 and 3000), but every time I see an article about the rising phonix called Amiga, can't help thinking that maybe the Amiga should be left in the past. It was fun; it was a great computer, but like the rest of the 80's, I think the party is over. Isn't time to move on? Promote BeOS, or GNU/Linux/GNOME/whatever_desktop instead.

    But you're missing a point; the Amiga as the Amiga Inc. means it is not very similar at all to the Amiga you and I knew. (actually, I'd rather hope that they wouldn't use the name, as it is rather misleading, in both good and bad ways...)

    The Amiga of 80's was a combination of custom hardware and a certain very different operating system compared to the others. This new 'Amiga' is very different in philosophy; not very hardware dependant and with an operating system that has rather little in common with the classic Amiga. So you're comparing apples and oranges.

    I don't think it will be a big success, but at least don't let the name mislead you.

  • Linux has a lot of neat things going for it, and x86 boxes are awefully fast these days, especially compared to 68k-based Amiga hardware. But put a 700 MHz Linux box right next to a 50 MHz Amiga (which is exactly the situation that I have at home) and then copy a few megabytes from a CD to hard disk. See how slow the GUI gets? Now try it on the Amiga. Ah, smooooooth.

    Try turning UDMA on (If you have a 700MHz machine, it quite probably has a controller capable of at least UDMA/33). It really helps both the transfer rates and CPU usage. Result: No jerkiness.

    Just for a test, I created a 150 megabyte file and transfered it to another disk. I didn't notice any delays while playing with the GUI, and I know what to compare against, because I've had an A4000/40 since around -94...

  • by iainl ( 136759 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @06:22AM (#320863)
    I think what is added is that its an environment that contains a VERY good Java VM, along with several other features such as ease of multiplatform development for things that are cumbersome in Java, and rather than attempt to write their own VM etc. they have decided its simpler to use the Amiga one.
  • Are you guys scared of competition? are you guys scared amiga might make actually linux look good? what's with all the negativity? you guys are acting the same way mac users were reacting after seeing an amiga emulating their 5000$ macintosh faster...

    I am glad seeing a BIG player in the electronic industry validating the current technology, yes it's not the classic amiga line on steroids, but hell I sure would like to see the name given credit if anything cool comes out of it and see amiga have it's right place in history... apple has a big part when you go see movies like pirates of sillicone valley or you look at documentaries about computer, fact is, you often never hear about the fact that the C=64 at one point had the biggest market share of personnal computers at home (well you hardly hear from commodore at all). Now if amiga would succeed in any ways, oh NOW people would know that a certain machine existed in 85 and was doing most of the stuff they are doing today (video editing, 3d, etc etc).

    I haven't *NEEDED* any microsoft product before windows 95 got popular, I didn't *NEED* to conform to word for sending resume over email etc etc, I could do my presentations with Scala (god powerpoint sucks, have you ever tried scala?, do my 3d with lightwave, do my word processing with final writer, and heck, I had TV out in 85, I had smooth video while my pc was jerking like h*ll even in 256 colors. Anyways... just a clue.

    So if amiga succeeds in any way, maybe it'll have it's right place in history as well and give Jay Miner some credits, and also "set us up the joy" :)
  • What's needed is someone to take hardware - be it G4 hardware, GF3 chips, whatever, standardize on it and then say "WE WILL SUPPORT THIS TILL DEATH DO US PART". This lets software developers push that metal to the limit, just like they did on the Amiga.
    Can you say Xbox?
  • BeOS personal edition could be taken as an OS that runs on WinXX and Linux. Since you install it and launch it from WinXX and/or Linux.

    On Windows 95/98/ME BeOS personal edition exits Windows and starts as a real OS. On Linux it even doesn't do that, you can install it in /beos (IIRC) and start it from LILO but it can not be started from Linux itself.

    The different with the Amiga 'OS' is that the Amiga OS is a layer on top of the OS as to provide platform independence much like Java and the C# VM/API (if one would believe MS, that is).

  • Geez people. It DIED! Get over it. You people are WAY worse than us Mac zealots. The Amiga OS might have rocked 20 years ago but so did my girlfriend's body. She has gained 150 pounds since then. Time for you freaking Amiga freaks to to let the OS go also. Be dies because it had no application support. Do you really think this will be any different?
  • Apple, Amiga, OS/2.

    Meanwhile DOS and later Windows came from nowhere and took over.

    Apps. Bundling. Marketing.

    If Be wants to 'win' they will have to find someone willing to let them lose $millions while they produce their own browser, office and multimedia apps.

    Why dual boot when a Mac or PC can do Office and multimedia? Unless people can buy Be, open the box and make something, instead of click on pretty widgets, nobody is going to.
  • by NoNeeeed ( 157503 ) <slashNO@SPAMpaulleader.co.uk> on Monday April 02, 2001 @06:03AM (#320869)
    This is a serious question and not flamebait.
    I just can't figure out what AmigaOS adds to a system. It runs on most OSs, which will provide process, thread and other system functionality. The Java VM provides the cross plateform capabilities. So just what does the AmigaOS provide for a program compiled to java that you don't get with just a good Java VM.

    Can anyone enlighten me?
  • Perhap's have they decompiled the ROM to build their OS, so they can't do a legal licence ?
  • :-))
    Have you been on hibernation those years ?
    First, there's a lot of projets related with Amiga's. Not only OS's but embedded applications, on cell phones for example, there's also some Hardware, from third parts : A mo-bo with G3-G4's.
    From now, there's about 3 solutions to add a PCI-bus on A1200 (from 1992 !), that's rocks on Voodoo3-4 ! All powered by Motorola-PPC's.
    AmigaDE is different from Amiga-One project, AmigaDE is built to give an universal developper environment, for embedded applications.
    AmigaOne (AmigaOS) is a classic AmigaOS machine, but natively runs app's on AmigaDE VM.

    May this help !
  • Is it just me or does this sound like "The third best football team in Cleveland"?
  • Newtek is selling the Video Toaster 2 (see: www.newtek.com) but it's based on P4 hardware, they dropped Amiga support a few years back.

    As for Kiki, your guess is as good as mine...

  • Well, I think what they are trying to avoid is having to produce hardware... and the actual selling and distrobution of said hardware. Have you looked for an Amiga dealer in the US lately... pretty sparse I can tell you that much.
  • From comp.sys.amiga.misc

    From: "Timothy Rue"
    Subject: On your MARK, get set, ready -Re: The Real Amiga Advance is Here and It Runs MorphOS
    Date: 2 Apr 2001 22:51:47 GMT

    On 02-Apr-01 07:44:47 Daniel Miller wrote:
    -I was looking at this like I used to admire the then-new AGA Amigas in
    -the slick UK magazines. It is the long-awaited PPC Amiga:

    -http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/news/news02_e.html

    -Here are the specs:

    -http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/news/pegasos_e.html

    -Here is the current software (MorphOS) that runs on it:

    -http://www.morphos.de/fileslinks.php3

    considering what's been said in experiences dealing with Amiga and others,
    there seems to be a growing trend if those resisting Amiga.

    Laire (MorphOS)and Amiga seem to agree on something however, and that is
    that the so called "community" is something of value, be it just a word or
    of a claim to a collection of people with common interest (such as a
    computer platform or sub section of developers for that platform) or what
    ever is convienent at the time it is used. The Collas clever use of the
    word "we".....

    It is becomming clearer every day that this word is being misused and
    those it suppose to be representitive of seem to be gaining in number of
    feeling the abuse, and everone knows you can lie and be as deceptitive
    and deceitfull as you want so long as you do it in a way that is
    relatively safe from proof. So you can ask for proof about something but
    not having proof doesn't mean what is being communicated is a lie.

    The law leans is on the side of money, not honesty, and that game is being
    played by Amiga the company.

    Like I said, Laire and Amiga do agree there is value in "community", be it
    just a word or with some actual people, be they a selected group or actual
    history stated group.

    Some of the stuff I've heard on IRC this weekend suggest overall that the
    development community has a problem with greed, and this includes Amiga
    themselves.

    When you have enough greed in a pot cooking, there is bound to be those
    who get burned. Those who took the bait before hey realize what they are
    biting into. The lure of easy money is bait that's been used for ages, and
    it amazes me how it can be so obviously used and yet make people so blind,
    because they want to believe it.

    There was also a particular comment made on IRC that suggested there may
    be more lies about me being told, or maybe it was an attempt at baiting.
    Certainly there was plenty of bait being tossed around and for sure there
    was this relatively safe from proof CRAP! To be Clear, I have never
    applied for or been offered a job at Amiga. It is arrogant and ignorant to
    assume anything regarding such a situation and what was said on IRC was
    the first hint or bait I'm aware of.

    I kept logs and sure was supprised with some of the crap and sometimes
    even who it was comming from. Clearly there are those who have a hard time
    knowing the difference between helping and abusing. But that is also
    something that can be said here in usenet and I can also say "in person"
    get togethers.

    So this "community" that is seen as having some value, what is it made of?
    I'd say a good active part of it is not very well or fair intentioned and
    most of the rest is simply nieve. There are of course those who fall into
    both catagories. Those who are greedy and nieve. Those are the ones who
    the bait of dollar signs will get them to bite, hooked and eaten.

    I told Laire, on IRC, to find a way to offer Morphos to the C=Amiga users
    in a way that doesn't infringe upon the "Purchasers" (very different than
    the "creators") use of the Intellectual property (trademark) name of Amiga.

    Now there are plenty of us that when we say Amiga in reference to the
    C=Amiga system we are using, are in fact communication information
    identifying some hardware and software, not a company or even who owns the
    trademark, but hardware and software we own or are otherwise refering to.
    We don't pay royalities to say the word, or even write in down.

    So maybe Laire can realize that promoting his OS as the next AmigaOS or
    such, is really just plain damn counter productive to (I'm assuming here -
    I could be wrong) his goals.

    There are alot of misconceptions going around about what AmigaDE is.

    The fact is, bottom line, it's is in part an emulator by Tao called
    "Elate" that is used to emulate imaginary hardware, such as a non
    existant CPU.

    Those who have been around within the history of Amiga know damn well what
    an emulator is. In fact, there was a time - maybe still true, when Amiga
    hardware and software could emulate more OS's than any other system,
    mostly thru course third party software.

    Ok so you have an emulator. What else is this AmigaDE?

    For the Emulator to work hosted..... Wait a minute.... the word "Hosted"
    is like saying ImageFX is "hosted" on the AmigaOS or one of the many
    Emulators is "hosted" on the Amiga software or........ "Hosted" on the
    Amiga Hardware.

    So it's really an emulation application or program. But with Elate,
    instead of writting a different emulator, of the imaginary CPU, so to
    "run" on real hardware and/or real hardware based OS's, only a translation
    mechanism between the "imaginary CPU" and the "real CPU" need be done.
    Same goes for any other imaginary to real hardware.

    But this Elate is all Tao Group product. So why call it AmigaDE?

    Tao is supplying the imaginary hardware emulator, via software (mostly).

    [Note: some of what is packaged by Tao is GNU (GPL) development software]

    But Tao is not supplying the emulatorhuman interface values that
    #5AmigaIP (fifth company to hold trademark and copyrights).

    so what you have is:

    what is being called AmigaDE (SDK w/Tao intent/Java and GNU dev tools)

    On top of

    TAO Group Elate - #5AmigaIP APIs

    On Top of

    others hardware & OS's

    where the layers equate to
    -HW/OS by whoever -- TAO -- #5AmigaIP --

    real hardware/os -- translation = hardware Emulator -- human interface

    #5AmigaIP is a customer of Tao Group, but they are not the only customer.
    Elate and their Java product "intent" is as well sold to other customers,
    such as Sharp. Customers of Tao's Elate can hire #5AmigaIP to provide
    additional "user" interface "content" or what you might call programs,
    including multimedia apps like games.

    If you take away everything but what #5AmigaIP is doing, all you really
    have is a human interface to another companies products. An interface
    for developers to use, of which they too can use to create programs for
    the end user.

    In the "Developer Community" what #5AmigaIP is doing is refered to as
    creating APIs (Application Programming Interfaces)

    APIs have generally not been something for the end users to deal with,
    but rather for use by those who write programs the end user might use.

    *Arexx helped to bring some APIs into the hands of the end users.*

    The AmigaDE package (existing in the AmigaSDK) is in essence, An Emulator,
    that can as well contain in the to be sold package, user applicaions
    (which naturally require the emulator to run.)

    Now back to Laire and MorphOS.

    Is MorphOS an emulator or a real OS?

    Does Laire want to be considered #6AmigaIP?
    Considering even the first one went broke!

    Funny how things change. It used to be that you could emulate other OS's
    to run their software on Amiga. But now it looks like the target product
    is gonna be an emulation to run on other hardware and other OS's.

    And it also looks like (according to what kelli wrote in
    comp.sys.amiga.misc)
    software the user makes use of is targeted to be rented per use, to the
    end user.

    Now what's the real value of the so called "Amiga Community"?

    Rentee/leasee (buyer)?

    You also have to buy a license to do business (sell)?

    I'm sure there are variations customed designed so long as cash flow is
    in a predetermined direction.

    Ya know, I don't think #5AmigaIP is very concerned about the OS
    competition but would love to do business selling them all AmigaDE to
    run on and thru their systems, both software and cash flow system.

    Of course Windows and Linux will get it for free. And Amiga users, they
    get the opportunity to pay for it in several ways and several times, more
    than any other system end user. Sure, why not continue on evolving a host
    system called Amiga?

    I made a commet on IRC, one that in ways seemed to be shared. I said that
    I don't like the MS mentality that's been comming from #5AmigaIP. A "want
    to own and control everything". A mentality I first noticed, and many
    years ago, coming from fleecy and his supporters. The Greed thing,
    obviously shared by enough in the so called "Amiga community" but
    certainly not all. The sort of thing that brings on the aboved mentioned
    "CRAP"

    Someone commented back that they didn't mind it if fleecy/#5AmigaIP has
    Gates mentality (obviousy a develper who is not fair intentioned and
    probably a bit nieve). So I asked: who really wants another M$?

    There was no answer. I guess they felt they would be repeating themselves.

    And if I got anything wrong from the above, Well I paid attention best I
    could thru IRC, web sites and even here, to what the show announcements
    would be. Like many who stayed next to there system running IRC around the
    world at all hours of the day and night, many tired, to finally hear Bill
    play an april fools joke about sound and email.

    This from a show promoted as "All will be known" or something to that
    effect. Guess it was like the Collas use of "we" (which Bill probably
    wrote for Collas the puppet), meaning all will be known to the select few.

    Hmmm, was there an NDA signing at the banquet door? Wasn't there one last
    year?


    3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!
  • Here is what Kelli said in comp.sys.amiga.misc

    The next day, at the seminar titled "Amiga - Where are we going from here":

    - It is not set in stone that the AmigaDE will never run on any existing
    Amiga/PPC solution. As of *now*, it's only zico, but that may change. Then
    again, it may also work out that for later releases that have more in common
    with DE than OS (see next point) will need to revert back to only zico,
    which would sort of negate the effort of porting 4.0 to non-zico Amiga/PPC
    systems.

    - AmigaOS 4.0 and beyond is intended as a beginning of a merging of the code
    base. Eventually, the robust, "scaled-up" server version of AmigaDE (you
    know, the one with memory protection and resource tracking) will be merged
    with AmigaOS. Bill the beginning of this code merger is planned for release
    4.2, and continuing through successive releases.

    - The reason why 4.0 is being released and the reason why AmigaDE is being
    merged with it is that Bill et al. fully realize that there are those who
    will *not* develop for any platform named "Amiga" on anything other than an
    Amiga. So, the ports are being done in order to leverage that developer base
    for the sake of the new hardware partners and the sake of the new business
    model. And, as the hardware platform migrates and transforms and the OS code
    base merges, eventually these developers can work on server-side
    applications for the Digital Environment clients.

    - The new business model: pay-for-play downloads of simple games, utilities,
    etc., for the Zaurus and the cellphone. I think the cellphone is called
    "iMo," but I'll just call it the cellphone. Develop for the Sharp systems,
    post your work on the Sharp wireless website for, say, $10, and get $6 for
    each download. An example figure given was that if your product made a 10%
    penetration into the market of wireless systems in Japan, that one $10 game
    could net the programmer $941,000. Increase the figures proportionally for
    the worldwide market, and adjust for more realistic levels of market share
    (the average game or utility is probably not going to acheive a 10% market
    share), and you're still making impressive amounts of money. The download
    protocol will be kept secret, I assume, in order to keep people from
    starting rival download centers and undercutting Sharp and the Amiga
    developers working on Zaurus and cellphone software.


    3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!

  • zpengo wrote:

    > An Operating System that runs on top of Linux? That's not an
    > operating system is it?

    The AmigaDE will be able to run "hosted" on many, many operating
    systems, including Linux. Moreover, AmigaDE "applications" can
    run without re-compilation on any of these systems (like Java).
    The advantages of this should be obvious.

    Psion wrote:

    > I won't be fooled into thinking that there is a direct lineage
    > between it [the new Amiga] and the computer with all those
    > signatures inside the case [the old computer].

    AmigaDE will also find itself on a dedicated operating system
    designed to showcase the AmigaDE's capabilites better than other
    OS's. Until 1st April, we didn't know what this OS would be, but
    we know now it will be a direct descendent of the current Amiga
    OS, which is currently at v3.9.

  • Wait... You run another OS to get a "very good Java VM"?! Why not just install a better Java VM (for those few times you want to run Java)? I'm confused.
  • Wouldnt you consider vmware to be something of an emulator? I mean, NT sure runs like it's being emulated when you run it under vmware....

    So that example sucks...but I guess your point is true...

    . . .

  • Oh really?

    Just goes to prove that you have not actually LOOKED at the CD or what is on it.

    Clue - the CD is nowhere near full of AmigaOS, compressed or otherwise.
  • Again, PROOF positive that you know not what you are talking about.

    Hint - the TCP/IP stack is part of the OS and NOT shareware.

    You were looking at OS3.9, right?

    Not OS1.3 and some shareware disks, right?
  • I'd really like to see the Amiga come back in a big way, like anyone else. But one feature that would be cool is not having to #halt or #shutdown -r now. Just flip the powerswitch. No worries about your OS and files getting thrashed.
  • Is the new Amiga OS compatible with the old Amiga OS? Will it run (old) Amiga programs?

    Or is it a separate product that's just trying to capitalise on the name?

  • Even if you assume that a Java binary will run exactly the same on all VM's (which it won't), as soon as you use JNI(which you'll have to do), it's instantly platform-dependant.

    Trolls throughout history:

  • well that's exactly what they are doing. But we have our reservation on it's capacity. Shouting from the roof top doesn't necessarily make you true.
  • Sorry, I meant that since GCC compiles to VM code, the binaries it produces are platform- independent. Thanks with the name-calling, by the way. It really helped me to see the error of my ways. That's fortunate, because I'm impervious to well thought out, logical arguments.
  • A fast Java VM is only one thing that AmigaOS adds. Another is the ability to abandon Java in favour of cross-platform Assembler or using the Gnu C++ compiler to produce cross-platform binaries.
  • by jason_hutchens ( 239116 ) <JasoHutchens@gmail.com> on Monday April 02, 2001 @07:36AM (#320888) Homepage
    Well, I own the Amiga SDK and so I can honestly say that I've seen it doing some really cool things running on top of X on top of Debian which I haven't seen plain ol' X on top of Debian doing before. I suggest you look at the IBM articles for some information. Google "Amiga SDK IBM" and feel lucky.
  • by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @05:55AM (#320889)
    One of the Amiga's driving factors that kept it alive through the 90's despite a complete lack of support was its incredible multimedia capabilities.

    If all hangs on this statement: "Amiga based applications can run unchanged on x86, PowerPC, M Core, ARM, StrongARM, MIPS R3000, R4000, R5000, SH 3, SH4, and NEC V850 processors. The Amiga OS can run hosted on Linux, Embedded Linux, Windows 95, 98, 2000, NT, CE and QNX4."

    If this is true, it will help eliminate the last reason I have to use Win32 over Linux for multimedia and graphics. I truly beleive that Amiga will score mulitimedia apps like BeOS and Linux just haven't managed to do up until now.

    Here's to hope...
  • Think of the Amiga OS running the Linux kernel as a GUI to replace XFree86.
  • Thanks for your comments.

    It seems to me that it feels like the kiss of death, to give a computer product (OS) the name of a system that already died once already.

  • by plcurechax ( 247883 ) on Monday April 02, 2001 @05:56AM (#320892) Homepage
    I loved my Amigas (500 and 3000), but every time I see an article about the rising phonix called Amiga, can't help thinking that maybe the Amiga should be left in the past.

    It was fun; it was a great computer, but like the rest of the 80's, I think the party is over.

    Isn't time to move on? Promote BeOS, or GNU/Linux/GNOME/whatever_desktop instead.

  • I always thought what made the Amiga great back in its time was the hardware architecture. Here was a machine (out of the box) with 512k of RAM that could smoke the competition (at the time an 80286 with VGA) as far as sound, graphics, and multitasking went. If it wasn't for the Amiga's custom chips, Fat Agnes comes to mind, all you'd have was just another home computer and perhaps the Atari ST would have been a little more popular.
  • I don't know why you had to use JNI? I did something like this the other day... All you need is java.io.File. Have fun!
  • I used to have an Amiga 500. As hopeful as I can be in an Amiga comeback, the thing I remember most is that it was the hardware technology that made the Amiga as good as it was. Sure, AmigaOS was/is more stable than Windows, but the core competency of the Amiga has to be the dedicated graphics, sound, and I/O chips built-in. The way they interoperated made the Amiga basically a parallel processing computer ahead of its time.

    When I hear news of AmigaOS running on a x86 machine, I just am naturally skeptical. The speed of todays processors just can't make up for all of the architechural limitations of the standard PC.
  • "Just because Be Inc, the company sees the end of money when they don't find new investors, doesn't mean BeOS, the operating System is a dead platform"

    You're right- in fact BeOS was a dead platform back when Be Inc. had lots of money.

    Graspee

  • I hope so. Because I'm just like all the other cheap old farts that like to continue cost justification on purchases made 15 years ago. I've got an old Philco turntable...Maybe we can get linux to run on that too.
  • seems like everyone is chasing the "embedded market" and consumers just aren't consuming GeoWorks has been at the small-footprint GUI just about as long as anyone -- specifically cell-phones et al insert our old, unsuccessful product X on small product Y and get another round of financing....
  • What did you expect "other then Hollow Insight (tm) from your fellow Slashdotters"? ... am I right?

    on top of that, your nasty thought toward this hunk of unfeeling metal is just what I like to hear. I want to bottle you, mate.

  • Heh. I've experienced quite the same. It pisses people off when they write something they put a lot of thought into, only to find one of the "regs" or the usual pattern of bullshit getting the points. And you know what I hate most? When you reply to someone who can moderate ya down... and they do just that because they know you invalidated what they said and thus want to purge the last True Word (tm) right off the face of earth into the scourge of trolls. For the fucking record, I read -1.99 nested (I sure wish the bored crapflooders would find something more constructive to do with their time, but I guess that's part of fame.) But, I look at it like a game you just can't touch. I never played Street Fighter when I was a kid... Why? Cuz I didn't want to feed a machine quarters or take an interest in that shit. Those rough in speak will tell ya the lottery is a tax on nigger (pardon me if I offended ya, but that's the way they put it.) if that's true then Slashdot is a tax on nerd.

    Funny and comforting thing about that is, just like the arcade machines that live the pizza joint that were right next to the bathroom ...... High scores can dissapear. So can the players before the machine actually leaves because they get tired of "the game." But, the question that thus arises is just so obvious I almost hate to spell it out: "Is Slashdot Immortal?" I can only wonder what this place will be like in ten years. Anyway, I'm not too big on "karma" or any of that shit -- when you debunk it for what it is it just seems boring and a stupid judge of character, like how fast and right you can hit the moves for Bison. And that's right no piss-poor analogy.
  • To restoring the glory of the almighty TANDY!!!
  • Newtek split into two companies, Play, which produced the Snappy video capture hardware and Gizmos software, and Newtek, who still make the Video Toaster for NT boxes. Kiki was working for Play, but Play has gone into receivership, and their stuff is no longer being supported.
    Personally, I thought the only thing the Amiga was good for was running the Video Toaster, so I don't see the point of this latest resurrection.
    -----------------

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