Salary Negotiation for an IT Position? 149
HerculesMO asks: "I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation. I know that I'm underpaid for what I do, and as such, I've been looking for another position. The problem is however, that a lot of potential positions ask for what you are currently making -- and it's a bargaining chip that the company I interview with will (and have) used to negotiate salary." Given that businesses usually base the salaries of new hires on their previous job, how can one arrange a fair salary if they were badly underpaid?
"I'm currently in a series of interviews with a company that I really like, the work environment, people seem young and friendly (like myself), and the business is something I wouldn't hate doing. I'm well qualified for the work, and their director already likes me. I just feel that, if I accept the position, I won't be able to bargain my way up to the market rate for the position, given it's such a leap from what I currently make. In New York, many of the companies require the disclosure of salary so just 'saying no' locks me out of a lot of potential positions."
Umm... lie. (Score:1)
DO NOT LIE! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe it varies by industry, but I can't imagine any company I've ever worked for doing this:
1) First, the company receiving the call usually won't want to advertise to their competitors how much they're actually paying for labor.
2) Second, most companies are sensitive to the fact that it could harm their interviewees if the company for which they're currently working knew they were looking.
3) Third, legal issues have put in place policies at most medium to large companies in the U.S. that prevent doing
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:2)
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:2)
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:2, Insightful)
Best thing to do is just tell them the truth, and explain why you might be paid so low. It happens, some companies pay low, and some pay well. You just got stuck at one that don't value the
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:2)
Happened to me too (Score:2)
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a feeling that the amount she gave was unreasonably high. Every year we hear a new article that gives the average wages someone in our position makes. Unfortunately, many technologists believe these averages to be around their actual market value. That simply isn't true. Some people have exceptionally high wages due to being in an invaluable position. (Been there, done that, both glad and sad it's over.) These salaries drag the industry average upwards, creating data that would make it appear that most technology workers are underpaid. Thus workers often hope for unreasonably high salaries when they switch jobs.
However, a new job will almost never want to match those figures unless they really want you on-board. In your friend's case, her high salary may have been a strong indication to them that she is an exceptional employee. But if they're basing their evaluations on a high salary, they probably will want proof of it. Just imagine how poor she looked in their eyes when they found she had not only lied about her salary (somewhat bad), but had significantly overstated her wages? Yeah, pretty bad. So bad that their opinion would have immediately went from hero to zero.
Each job negotiation is a delicate process with no hard and fast rules. So there's no telling what may work better. Generally I'd recommend telling the company to give you an offer if you don't want to state your real wages, but sometimes that has the exact opposite effect of what you want. Even if you read the interviewer fine, he/she may not be the one who finally has to be convinced. (You may not even see that person.) So tread carefully, and realize that it doesn't always work out.
If you absolutely *must* lie, though, try to explain the differences as bonuses in previous years. They're a bit more difficult to check, and sound quite good. (Though you may have to lie even more to explain what the bonuses were for.) Of course, once a company has your SSN info, it's all over. You just have to hope that your future boss doesn't check your tax information and/or credit report before hiring. (Note that many companies check credit reports as a method of protecting against embezzlement and position abuse.)
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:2)
Corporations dont want to hire at all as you cost money. They want the best bang for the buck.
Someone making alot of money is assumed better and would get the job as the productivity would soar past someone servely underpaid.
Many managers who were not laid off and kept their 85k a year jobs and were not outsourced to India feel differently than thos
Re:DO NOT LIE! (Score:2)
Why hasn't she left yet? Because she's not found her next job yet. Why do you think she's interviewing with you if she's not looking for a better job? Now, if she's been working for that company for ten years and been underpaid the whole time, you might wonder why she stayed there so long.
READ THIS BOOK (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580083102/ref=p
It's a handbook of negotiating techniques with specific regard to salary and job prospecting.
The golden rule?
WHOEVER GOES FIRST LOSES. Don't EVER be the first to mention a number.
The book is incredible, it really is. There are at least three different techniques for dealing with the "what are you currently making" question.
If you do nothing else before you have your next interview, read the book. If it doesn't help you, I'll buy it from you. I re-read the whole thing before EVERY interview to brush up.
I don't want to seem overenthusiastic, but this is one of the few things I can say works without a doubt. It's one of the most important books I've read in my entire career.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2)
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2)
There may be legal restrictions on what your past employers can disclose, but let's face it, that doesn't stop someone asking and someone else telling. If they do, you may get to hose your previous employer (or not, as the case may be), but for sure if you lied on an application that's instant dismissal and a bad reference from the new job.
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of a line I got from a WSJ Managing Your Career column a while back:
"I am hoping to receive a fair offer."
One guy I interviewed with even knew the article I was talking about and got some points for reading the journal.
But don't fib. It'll bite you in the ass.
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:3, Informative)
Here's the best salary advice anyone has ever given me - make them talk numbers first.
Yes, you can do this. It's part of the process. If they are talking money, they want to hire you, but they, of course, want to get you as cheaply as they can to make you happy. Don't ever give in first. If you do, you won't get paid as much as they are willing to pay you.
Worst case scenario is that they won't give a number without you giving a number. That's rar
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:3, Insightful)
I dont see why people have such problems with just saying what they want to say
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:1)
You appear to be conflating `having a conscience` with `feeling bad about lying`. We're talking about applying for a job - you don't owe them any favours. They're hiring you because they feel that they can make more money with you working for them than if you didn't. It's not like you adding 20% to your current salary is going to bother them - either they're prepared to offer you what you're after or they're not.
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2)
Most people associate telling the truth with moral goodness. Misleading people is bad. If you want a higher salary, you ask for one, instead of using deceit. It like the inverse of being a politician.
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2)
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2)
Re:Umm... lie. (Score:2)
Besides the fact that you're starting a position with a new employer on the basis of dishonesty (since when did integrity become a bad thing?), it is almost always grounds for immediate termination (that means you get fi
Don't tell them (Score:5, Interesting)
Never tell them what you currently earn. Just tell them what sort of range you're looking for. If it's the kind of organisation that's worth working for, they'll understand that this is the relevant piece of information for you to provide anyway and not even question it.
If they start trying to dig, politely decline to tell them, saying that you don't think it's relevant and/or that you feel it's inappropriate to discuss the specific details of a professional relationship with another employer. (In some places, talking about salaries is bizarrely taboo, and most businesses will respect that the same way they'd respect you if you declined to talk about specifics of previous work because of a confidentiality clause: they'd hope for the same professional conduct if you were leaving them and working for someone else.)
If they persist even then, then they're the kind of place that pays what it can get away with and not what it should pay on merit, and you probably don't want the job anyway.
Re:Don't tell them (Score:4, Insightful)
Because when some companies advertise for jobs, they put out a lowball offer first, and gradually ramp up the salary until they start getting bites. Consequently, that type of workplace will have a wide range of salaries - some engineers might be earning more than managers. To avoid any kind of workplace uprising, the discussion of salaries is taboo.
Re:Don't tell them (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Don't tell them (Score:2)
Re:Don't tell them (Score:2)
Just say this... (Score:4, Insightful)
If $Y is a reasonable number and you stick to your guns, you can probably get them to offer it.
Alternatively, if you don't particularly care about being honest, you could always just say "I'm currently making $Y" and there will never, ever be any way they'll ever know the difference. However, I think the first approach is more straightforward and just as effective.
-- Mark
Re:Just say this... (Score:2)
Actually, some companies will require an old W-2, pay stub, etc. as proof of prior income before starting work. This is particularly true for sales people because it provides a clear picture of the person's success at the last job.
If you
Re:Just say this... (Score:2)
Re:Just say this... (Score:2)
Re:Just say this... (Score:2)
Re:Just say this... (Score:2)
I would just not tell them what you make, and tell them what you're seeking. If you're diplomatic in the dialog, you can DDE (Dodge, Duck, Evade), the question and leave them feeling like you answered it - with the salary you're seeking to make.
Oh gods... (Score:4, Funny)
I am so very sorry for you...
Re:Oh gods... (Score:2)
I am so very sorry for you...
Me too, Windows Admins are a dime a dozen, like McDonalds. If he/she wants a great pay cheque it comes with getting skills to a level above commodity. That is, can they do more than click'n'call help! And do something better, faster and not so common and efficiently. Have they gone the extra distance?
Senior admin (ANY OS) almost always means my brain has gone from gray to green so you should pay me more. However a real senior admin knows at least 3 OSes, at least 3 progr
Re:Oh gods... (Score:2)
sysadmins aren't wizards anymore: they administer the IT systems. by your reckoning, a hospital sysadmin could do brain surgery and i don't mean BOFH-style brain surgery.
Don't tell them... (Score:1)
Just tell them (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Just tell them (Score:2)
I think a better route would be for the person to find out what the average salary is for a person with his particular skills, experience, education, etc. Obviousl
Tell them what you're worth then get another job (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tell them what you're worth then get another jo (Score:2)
I'd argue that prospective employers who are asking about your current salary are doing so because they are clueless or cheap, neither of which is good for a prospective candidate. If they're clueless then they're probably hiring because someone told them they needed an administrator, but they won't value your contributions because they don't know what it is that you really do. If they're cheap
Re:Tell them what you're worth then get another jo (Score:2)
many who stayed at 75k are now promoted as managers and do the hiring.
Who would you hire the one making 35k or 65k? I would assume the one making 65k was better at his or her job otherwise he or she would leave right? Of course this is not true but those who have not been outsourced it may be viewed differently.
Re:Tell them what you're worth then get another jo (Score:2)
Me personally? I'd hire the right person for the job, regardless of the cost. But that's not always how it works. I once worked for a company where we got to interview prospective bosses. Candidate #1 was voluntarily leaving her company after many years of service and was highly qualified for the job. Candidate #2 was laid off in a company restructuring an
"Please, sir, may I have some more?" (Score:2, Funny)
Why not just tell them? (Score:5, Funny)
As an aside, whatever they offer you, get it in writing, and be wary of things like "Starting at 40,000, increasing up to $10,000 after 3 month review," I've gotten screwed by that type of language before. "Yeah, It's only a $2000 raise, but we did say 'up to' $10,000! (wink, wink)." I started looking for a new job that very day.
I made a big change in income (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I made a big change in income (Score:2)
Re:I made a big change in income (Score:2)
Just don't expect any more big payrises... they've got you over a barrel... :-(
As barrels go, this one's pretty good.
Re:I made a big change in income (Score:2)
What I'm getting at is, I tend to reserve my negotiations for solely the impact I'm having on the company's bottom line. Whether I want to own a home or a Ferrarri shouldn't matter to my employers, or change how they feel I should be compensated.
Saving $50,000 a
Re:I made a big change in income (Score:2)
Re:I made a big change in income (Score:2)
Re:I made a big change in income (Score:2)
He's:
a) got a family to feed (i.e. he's likely to be dependable worker.)
b) buying a house in the area (i.e. he's likely to not need to move due for housing/schooling reasons)
c) they don't need to increase his salary any more (his mortgage will be decreasing over time, and he probably can't afford to move or it's less likely that he will be able to, so the company would be in a good bargai
Doesn't matter. NEVER take their first offer. (Score:5, Interesting)
I have worked with folks who took the first offer, and made WELL below me for the same work.
BTW, I'm a UNIX system administrator, who does windoze only when absolutely required.
Tell them your salary, it empowers you (Score:5, Insightful)
You make it clear - very clear - that your current salary is too low and that is a big factor in why you are looking for a new job. Sure, you might be able to fight for a raise and get it, but it's still too low. That means their offer has to be even more than what one raise might net you. You're telling them that if they low ball you, you aren't taking their offer.
Whoever throws a number out first sets the tone. If, for example, you make $55k, but want $60k, but you make them say a number first, there are scenarios where you can end up fighting an uphill battle. What if they offer you $50k? What, suddenly you're willing to disclose your old salary and tell them their offer is too low? Then all that talk about it not being "relevant" goes out the window and you look like a fool. And now you are stuck fighting your way *up* to your goal. Instead, had you made it explicitly clear your currently salary is FAR too low, told them what it is, and asked for $65k, then you place them in the position to have to fight their way down to $60k.
If you don't tell them what your salary was up front, they won't know where you are coming from and your salary request will seem like some phantom number you got from salary.com. You want credibility? If you can't justify why you should get paid what you are worth, you don't deserve the salary anyway. Tell them what you make and make them respect what you feel you should be getting.
Re:Tell them your salary, it empowers you (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, but I just can't see the benefits for the job seeker in your advice.
Do you want to work for such a company anyway? That's certainly never been the norm where I work, only the practice of predatory large corporations that don't pay well.
Re:Tell them your salary, it empowers you (Score:1)
Otherwise you will be filtered by HR who wants the most qualified workers for the cheapest price.
Value yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Most company HR departments will validate current salary level requests. Large corporations often have hotlines dedicated to this, as the information is often required when applying for a mortgage or other financing.
It's a tough spot to be in when you are asked this question. When answering, make sure that you give a figure that represents your entire package (salary, bonus, options, perks, etc) - and let them know that you're talking about an entire package. Since bonuses are often based on variable factors, it's fair for you to factor in the upper limit of your bonus potential. The message here is be honest, but also be thorough in how you detail things. Above all, be fair to yourself.
If you're good enough and an employer really wants to hire you - they'll pay what they feel you're worth to them, as opposed to just giving you a standard "raise" from where you are.
Good luck - stay confident, negotiate tough and get what you deserve!
Be Resonable and Professional (Score:2)
Remember they (their HR department) has researched the going rates for the position in your area so they know what Resonable and Professional is. And they should be offering you what you are worth to them.
WARNING: Passive aggression detected! (Score:2, Interesting)
In the first option, we assume you have not asked for a raise. This is either (A) because you are afraid of your boss, and/or (B) you're afraid of rejection, and/or (C) because you're not confident in your abilities, and/or (D) you know you don't deserve a raise. If you deserve a raise, ask. If
Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected! (Score:2)
He'd be better off discussing compensation with an outside offer letter in hand. I think that'd be worth a delay of a few weeks to hear back from some of the places he's interviewed.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected! (Score:2)
Last time I asked my boss for a raise, I got declined. Two weeks later he hired another employee as my replacement (a n00b) and then laid me off a week later for some lame excuse.
Frankly that doesn't sound like the type of boss I would want to work for anyway. I assure you he'll just screw over the next guy, and when that person leaves he'll find someone else to screw over. (Depending on where you are now, if I were you I'd probably be looking back thinking "gosh it was for the best after all that I left
Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected! (Score:2)
Perfect!
Do tell them, but give them the gross (Score:5, Informative)
By the time I add all that stuff up and tell them that is what I am currently making, I've pretty much reached the base salary I am looking for.
The key is in how you word it. Obviously you can't say "my current base pay is", you have to say "I am currently making about
Another key is to be somewhat vague. If you are making $65k/year, say "in the high sixties, looking for something in the low seventies".
If you are very underpaid, don't be afraid to mention this to your new employers as a reason you are looking for a new job. This will ensure they offer something above what you are currently making.
Also remember that when they offer you a job, it's an offer and it's probably not final. I've never accepted the first offer and always received a better offer.
Lockheed Martin Information Technology? (Score:1, Insightful)
So, do you work for LMIT? I am just curious as it is a small world. Lockheed Martin is the largest defense contractor, has the most money, yet low balls its workers and pays the fat cats the big salaries. LMIT had some of the best co-workers skill set wise, however, the management absolutely sucked. They got their positions and huge s
be firm.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, if you dont want to give out your current salary (which you shouldnt), you could always state "I would like give you that information upon negotiating my salary"
The 5-Step Program (Score:2, Insightful)
1.) Make sure that the requirements in the job description are in fact everything that it says it is...(ie.- No additional stuff that wasn't included in the job description, such as managing additional employees, expecting to deal with issues outside of the scope of your work, etc)
2.) State what you assume the average position salary range for the job that you're applying for is. In add
Re:The 5-Step Program (Score:1)
too many years in the it field...where's that grammer button again?!?
Re:The 5-Step Program (Score:2)
Re:The 5-Step Program (Score:2)
what I did (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:what I did (Score:2)
a) being able to offer 30k
b) feeling it would be worth 30k to keep me
c) knowing it would cost at least 20k in salary and presumably more in time and training to replace me
Bottom line was that their behavior showed a lack of respect for me and my contribution to the company. I would have been able to forgive their first offer as hasty had
Re: (Score:2)
Re:what I did (Score:2)
Re:what I did (Score:2)
Also, your statement assumes that there is some higher power that sets
Re:what I did (Score:2)
To be clear: I told the employer what I thought the fair wage was. The
Re: (Score:2)
Re:what I did (Score:2)
In the past, it was legal to pay a man nothing for his work. It was called slavery. I claim this wasn't moral on the part of the slaveholders, though it was perfectly valid within their legal and ethical frameworks.
Paying someone less than fairly is just a different position on the sliding scale toward slavery. If you choose not to pay a man fairly, that's a moral cho
Oh good grief, be up-front about it! (Score:3, Insightful)
Tell them your whole employment history up-front. Since you're currently under-market, you hardly have a position to negotiate from anyway. And they've certainly had plenty of their time wasted before by applicants who interviewed well but who's references didn't check out in the end.
You've stayed at that current position for several years because of the great learning environment, right? But now you're open to moving because your current employer doesn't have a path for you to grow much beyond it, or so I figure.
A business has two types of positions: those for which basic requirements or certifications are considered sufficient (you mentioned Windows System Administrator), and those for which the superior candidate will bring to the company strategic advantages (usually just sales, upper management, and sometimes development). The first get based on pay grades and local market conditions, whereas the latter are much more flexibly based mostly on how the company feels about it's profitability. I theorize that these correspond to Maslow's homeostatic and higher needs [emotionall...cation.com], respectively.
Get them to say the first number. You currently have stable employment, and they're probably not hoping for someone who jumps ship anytime 10% comes along either. Since you're currently under market, any offer you get may be on the low end of their grade for the position. Take it without hesitation, if it gets you into the usual market range for your skills (you already mentioned that you liked the company).
Work hard, prove yourself valuable, and you can expect to be at correspondingly competitive compensation within a couple of years.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Oh good grief, be up-front about it! (Score:2)
Hey, nothing wrong with that if you can back it up, but somehow I just don't get the sense that it's the best strategy for this guy writing in to "Dear Slashdot".
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Negotiate your salary (Score:2, Informative)
They will typically give you a range.
You should also value yourself. If you think you're worth 60k, ask for 65k.
Also don't ever settle for something low. There are always jobs to be found somewhere.
This is a business relationship. Treat it as one. (Score:4, Interesting)
A feeling? You're basing business decisions on a fear?
Be honest. Decide for yourself whether you release information about a business relationship you had/have with another company. Then go into your interviews knowing what you will share and how you will share it.
Don't sit around and wonder what they'll do, or what they'll think.
You are developing business relationship. Be professional. Don't go in there hoping you do everything right, and in the process spend more time worrying about doing the right thing than about presenting yourself and your skills.
I have made a few largish jumps in the past (12%, 25%, 63%). Each time I went in and told them what I liked about their company, how I believed I fit in, and the range I expected to be paid for the position. Each time I was honest without telling them my current sallary. This last time several companies turned me down primarily, I assume, because I was asking for what I was worth. Eventually I found a position that was perfect for me, and apparently perfect for them.
But then, I don't bargain. I don't do counter-offers, and I let them know up front that I'm not interested in doing so. If they don't feel like paying what I'm worth, then I'll not waste any more of my time or their time.
Your mileage may vary, and unless you have the personality that I have these tips may not work for you. But I would suggest at minimum that you treat this as a two way business relationship. They are trying to sell you on the position as much as you are trying to sell them on your skills. Don't make yourself out to be the party with less power.
"We have hundreds of applicants, what makes you so special?"
"There are hundreds of campanies I could work for. I want to work for yours. Can you say that of your other applicants?"
-Adam
It all depends... (Score:2)
However, there is a big difference between stating somethi
Yin/yang (Score:2)
And at least as many existing positions require you not to divulge that to anyone. So use that as a bargaining chip.
Easy answer (Score:2)
Any mid-to-large sized company isn't going to be broken by an IT salary. If you state politely and firmly that this is what you want and you won't accept any less, than the decision lies with them. If you don't state that up front, they'll assume there's some flex
Re: (Score:2)
Dealing with how much you currently make (Score:2)
You are under no obligation to reveal your current salary. It's even against the law for your current employer to disclose that information. The only information they
Keep your salary under wraps (Score:2)
An Update... (Score:2)
Without revealing my salary (I used the line "It's not allowed by my current company to discuss compensation with anybody.").
I got a 47.5% raise now over my current job.
Thanks for all your advice folks, it worked out brilliantly
Re:Off-topic, troll, funny (Score:1)
Re:Off-topic, troll, funny (Score:1)
Well, the clue is in the name: "Ask Slashdot". In English, questions end in a question mark, you see. :-)
Re:Off-topic, troll, funny (Score:1)
Re:Lie (Score:2)
If they ask the question and you don't get the job you have good grounds for taking them to court; regardless of whether you answer it or not.
If they are asking how much you earn you dont' want to work there because it's obvious they don't really care too much about your right to privacy.