Inside a Mechanical Parking Garage 295
poisedleft writes "Slate has this article about a mechanical parking garage in DC. 'Despite the undeniable Jetsons cachet of the robo-garage, the Summit Grand Parc went automatic only because it had to. A 60-foot-by-106-foot lot behind the building, the only land available for a conventional garage, couldn't hold more than 14 spaces.' One potential problem for suffering city dwellers: long lines at rush hour."
Beware... (Score:5, Funny)
Old Technology (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Old Technology (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Old Technology (Score:3, Informative)
Jetsons? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Jetsons? (Score:2)
I never really thought about it before, but that just doesn't make sense. Fucking cartoons.
Look at the previous post! (Score:3, Funny)
Not new news (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, if everyone just used public transit, then public transit would be faster and we could put parks in place of parking lots. But I guess it is more convenient to sit twice as long in a grid lock...
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Interesting)
When I lived downtown, I rode the bus back and forth everywhere. But times change, fares go up, schedules get changed for more "efficiency", and the end result is that riding the bus is no longer an attractive option for me.
Re:Not new news (Score:5, Interesting)
You chose to live in a place without accessible transit. Sure, you probably had your reasons... of course, if our public policy didn't encourage people to buy as much house as they can possibly afford, and we didn't make it so much cheaper to develop in the outskirts than in the city, your choice might have been different. But it's still the choice you made.
Where do you work? Do you commute to a place where you're competing with tens of thousands of other people for road space? If so, then moving out to the suburbs just made everything that tiny bit worse for all of us. If you work at home or somewhere near where you live, then it makes a bit more sense.
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not new news (Score:5, Interesting)
No, I think you decided what you had to say before you read his post though: *They moved the route!*
Never the less. I have lived here near DC and have used both public transit and driven to work. About an equal amount of each.
I was inclined to use mass transit when my hours were both fixed, and normal. If your hours are unpredictable, as many are these days, you can get screwed. Parking lots that feed the metro system here in DC fill up between 8AM and 9AM. Shortly after that the busses go into a reduced schedule, then stop running completely in many places except for the morning and afternoon rush. Makes perfect sense doesn't it? Using mass transit with even a slightly shifted schedule here is almost impossible. The system runs at full capacity for a couple hours every morning and afternoon and then dries up almost completely, simply because there is no way to get to it.
But that doesn't stop people from saying data-free things like "if more people would just use mass transit, things would be so much better".
Most of these systems run at a loss. They almost all were built on a model that said they could run profitably if ridership were "X" and now in most cases ridership is "2X" or more.
Thats not to mention recent finding that there is little or no preparedness for terrorism in these systems. Guess what? They "forgot" to deal with that issue, and now they will need more money for that. They also "forgot" what they did with millions of dollars in parking fees for the system, and yes, they will need more money(!) to automate their money tracking system better so they don't lose so much money in the future. Maybe.
These systems become huge bureaucratic sinkholes, with nobody really claiming responsibility for anything that happens. In the end, taxpayers anywhere in the vicinity of these systems end up footing the bill for all the waste, and politicians who get chauffeured to work utter platitudes about increasing ridership to solve all problems.
Is the answer for everyone to get a low gas mileage SUV and drive 75 miles to work every day? No. But there are lots of alternatives. Fuel efficient cars. Car pooling. An for the vast majority of information/office workers, simply STAY HOME. Our problems with this are way more cultural than technological. Very few people who work for the federal government can work at home. They have to show up. To see, and be seen by all the other people who show up. Never mind what they accomplish, or fail to accomplish. They were there for roll call, now where is the paycheck?
Many people who live only a few hours from these urban eye-sores drive economy cars, work a few miles away at the hardware store or coffee shop. They don't breath polluted air. They don't drink lead contaminated water (that DC city officials "forgot" to tell anyone about).
The solution to many of these problems is to stop cramming people into high rise buildings where they live and bussing them to high rise building where they work. That model fails to produce quality of life wherever it has been tried worldwide.
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Interesting)
That certainly fits the description of Manhattan and quite a few people disagree with your sentiment based on what the market will bear for housing on the island. Density can also bring some advantages as well as disadvantages. People prefer different things.
For
Re:Not new news (Score:5, Interesting)
I wish I could say the same...
My daily commute from Virginia to DC is about 9 miles one-way across the Woodrow Wilson Bridge. Anybody who has lived in the DC/VA/MD area knows what a PITA that route can be. I also drive a hybrid, so I get great gas mileage and super-ultra-low emissions. I'm not just saying that; the car is rated as a SULEV. So when I sit in rush-hour traffic, I'm generally not burning any gas.
One day I rode the bus/train to work because (a) My car was somewhere else and (b) I wanted to know how long it would take in case I had to do it repeatedly.
My findings?
When I leave the house at 6:30am, I get to work around 6:50. At 45 MPG and 90 miles/week, that's two gallons of gas. At $1.75/gallon, that's $3.50 work of fuel I burn in my commute every week. Per mile, my commute costs me 3.8 cents per mile in fuel.
If, OTOH, I take the metro, I have to leave the house at 6:30 via the free shuttle from my place to the closest metro station, take the train into DC, transfer to another train, ride to another station, transfer to a bus, and ride the bus to the stop outside the office. That trip runs me about $2.75 ONE WAY and takes two hours. Total cost: $22.50 per week in metro fares. Now, taking into account that the run also covers roughly 3x the distance, that comes to about 8.3 cents per mile.
So, riding mass transit costs me about twice what it costs me to drive myself on a per-mile basis, or over SIX TIMES what in costs me in absolute terms; but that's of course made up for by the fact that the commute takes six times as long.
Fortunately I don't pay for parking, so I do have a big advantage there. If I paid for parking, then the story changes dramatically.
In short--I'll continue to drive myself to work in the morning.
Not to say that there aren't other times I'll take the metro to other places because of the convenience of not having to pay for parking or even finding a spot; I don't drive into downtown DC unless I have to, because traffic is a g-- d--- nightmare.
Re:Not new news (Score:2, Insightful)
Except for... (Score:2)
Except for the price of the car/insurance/maintenance, of course.
One member of a family routinely using alternate transport (bus/bike/carpool) allows a two car family to become a one car family. With the attendant huge financial savings.
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Funny)
Persoanly I'm a work at my own office near my house/home at client site consu
Re:Not new news (Score:2, Informative)
And what if you are married and both of you have jobs, one in the city, and one in the 'burbs? Depending on the geography, it may not be possible to live somewhere where both can get to work by public transit.
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
As if it would be more convenient for us suburban types to walk a few miles (about 4 where I am) in the rain to get to a bus stop.
Of course, that would be daft. But 4 miles is a perfectly nice distance to do by bicycle.
Re:Not new news (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the assumption was that if everyone was using public transit, it would be faster, not only because there would be less traffic. It would also be because ridership would be so high they could afford more buses, tighter routes, and shorter waits. More shelters too for your rainy wait.
One of the main reasons so many bus systems are crappy or deemed inadequate by potential users is because there just aren't enough users to support to level of service we'd like to see. Remember, somebody has to pay all those drivers every day, and fuel and maintain all of those buses. That's why your rates go up and the schedules get messed with. If everyone was taking the bus everywhere, you would likely see dramatic improvements in service, and rates could possibly relax as well.
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Insightful)
How would public transit be faster for 90% of the US? I take the freeway to work, I drive 15 miles each way, it takes me 15 minutes.. that's an average of 60 mph door-to-door.
If I took the bus or some rail system, it would take me more than hour because, unlike mass transit, I don't have to stop every mile to pick up and drop off passengers.
Re:Not new news (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
Obeying the speed limit the trip takes 13 minutes. Add in another 2 minutes for stoplight on the last street (the only place this a stoplight on my entire route) and walking from the p
Re:Not new news (Score:2, Funny)
Why do we park on a driveway but drive on a parkway?
Re:Not new news (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
Re:Not new news (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
It's probably easier than jamming it into a compact sedan.
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Insightful)
Your examples, by and large, would have issues using a standard car as well. Transporting a harp or string bass or 60 lbs of camping equipment is difficult no matter how you do it. But this is a small fraction of the population. Boy Scouts going on camping trips and professional musicians do not contribute
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
What about a week's worth of groceries? How do you take them on the bus? There's a reason why no one cooks in new york... they can't get their groceries home.
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
And like here, I'm sure a lot of it is status symbolism.
Re:Not new news (Score:3, Informative)
Seems we have plenty of these automated garages in Europe also, I used to commute on the train past the one in Stockholm every day. There is a windows media player clip on the site which shows the vehicle driven into the system and returned rotated ready to drive away. Plenty of pictures also. Says the retrival time is 50 seconds.
One cool aspect of these storage silos is that you could plant one under an existing car park and put trees and grass in the place of t
Re:Not new news (Score:2)
Also, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Also, (Score:4, Insightful)
The question is: who's legally responsible when the computer driving this thing screws up and drops your car a couple storeys?
Re:Also, (Score:2)
The operator of the garage pays... (Score:3, Informative)
Caddy takes plunge at high-tech garage [njo.com]
The other high tech parking garage that they alluded to in the subject article is located in Hoboken, NJ, a stone's throw from NYC. In this particular case, a Cadillac DeVille was pushed off its pallet and smashed into oblivion due to the trunk popping open during retrieval. The trunk apparently clipped the machinery or something like that. Heh. The Hoboken municipal garage, by the way, is very similar to what
Can you leave your dog in it? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Can you leave your dog in it? (Score:2)
Which apparently means that it's safe to allow teenagers to ride in the machine?!?
Re:Can you leave your dog in it? (Score:2)
The problem with questions ensuring you're not doing something wrong is that they're actually suggesting all these cool things you can try.
Re:Can you leave your dog in it? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Can you leave your dog in it? (Score:2)
Wonder what the offical PETA rules of conduct are... Do they spit on the unconscious guy on the ground before they put the flyer on your car, or do they wait until after?
I know, everyone is going to feign offense, but I'm a pet owner myself, and I think some of those PETA guys need serious help. I know some that think, in lieu of animal testing (sure, everyone loves bunnies, but would they
Pictures and Details (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Pictures and Details (Score:2)
Wohr is one of the leading manufacturers of car parking systems in Germany. For the last 40 years now, since the number of cars on the roads began to increase, Wohr has been designing and installing parking systems. Okay, who stole the Umlauts?
I can picture it now (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I can picture it now (Score:2)
Re:I can picture it now (Score:2)
Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well... (Score:2, Funny)
Links (Score:3, Informative)
Space saver company [spacesaverparking.com]
inside? (Score:2)
It doesn't look like it's very accessible - if you forget your phone or a book or whatever, I wonder if can you walk down underground and get it instead of waiting for the car to come back up. Looks like you'd just get sliced by the machinery. I thought there might be a pathway around the outer walls so you could still get to your car.
Re:inside? (Score:3, Informative)
Part of the reason it works is because they don't have to put enough space between the cars for people to get in and out the doors. So, no, even if you could walk up and sa
car dispenser? (Score:5, Interesting)
Every new building in crowded centers should build 150% of their parking capacity requirement into their architecture, and get all parked cars off our congested streets. When the spaces are filled with fuelcell vehicles, the building can autonegotiate with the vehicle owners for competitive power pricing in either direction across their charge plugs. All this possibility makes the Jetsons look like some 1960s cartoon.
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is, all kinds of research has shown that parking (and highways, roads, all private transportation infrastructure) operates on an "if you build it, they will come" principle. If you build 150% of "capacity," one of two things will happen: either a third of your parking spaces will be empty even during Christmas Eve shopping fre
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
Re:car dispenser? (Score:2)
zerg (Score:2)
Re:zerg (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd consider that kind of error ratio perfectly acceptable, compared to the number of human fender-benders that happen in a typical parking garage setup. Sure, sucks to be the owner of the dropped car... but insurance will pay for that.
Thanks for the typical snark Americanisms (Score:5, Insightful)
Moron. Just because America is "not lacking in parking spaces" doesn't mean an auto-carpark isn't a massive improvement over the traditional, enormously wasteful (of space and money) parking lot. Sprawl and pollution, for starters, would be significantly less than the major, major insurmountable problems they are now in virtually all American cities if we could do away with our dependence on plentiful free parking.
Re:Thanks for the typical snark Americanisms (Score:4, Insightful)
You would think that someone who goes around declaring others as "morons" would at least display some rudimentary amount of intelligence themselves.
Just because America is "not lacking in parking spaces" doesn't mean an auto-carpark isn't a massive improvement over the traditional, enormously wasteful (of space and money) parking lot.
In most American cities, the auto-park is a solution looking for a problem. The machinery itself is fairly complex to build and maintain. The average cost of a parking spot in the auto-park is $25,000. In most American cities, the average cost of a parking spot is a lot less than that. Now you tell me which is the "waste of money".
Sprawl and pollution, for starters, would be significantly less than the major, major insurmountable problems they are now in virtually all American cities if we could do away with our dependence on plentiful free parking.
Huhh?? What does expensive stack parking have to do with pollution? I hope you're not suggesting that the extra 100 yards a car has to drive in your average parking lot is a measurable source of pollution. Ditto for sprawl.
Stack parking does make sense in places where real estate is very expensive - Manhattan, for example. However, the value proposition is just not there for the majority of places. Once the value proposition gets there, there will be more of these around.
Re:Thanks for the typical snark Americanisms (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, the Europeans built their cities right. Paris is half the land area of Atlanta, and utterly undrivable. However, that doesn't mean much, because there are close to 400 metro stations in the cities, plus another 150 RER stations for the suburbs. Washington DC is almost as compact (and nearly as undrivable), but its subway pales in comparison.
Re:Thanks for the typical snark Americanisms (Score:4, Interesting)
Drive through any old US city like NYC or Chicago, and the highways will be crammed into two lanes with a confusing braid of onramps and offramps. Regions like Seattle or the SF bay on the west coast have massive 8 lane highways and a number of tributaries (expressways, etc) feeding cars into local streets.
That part of the world is the newest, so it benefits (though I suppose the use of "benefits" is a potential debate topic
Re:Thanks for the typical snark Americanisms (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Thanks for the typical snark Americanisms (Score:3, Interesting)
Hm... UCLA spent $38,000 per space to dig up the IM field and build a parking garage under it (then put the field back). Granted, that's somewhat extreme, but the typical cost
Robotic Parking (Score:2, Informative)
Cars are big problems in the first place (Score:2, Offtopic)
I've never owned a car in my life. I can't drive due to a medical condition. I've managed to get around using public transportation here in the US. Other countries have better systems of public transport.
Cars are a very dangerous form of transportation. We need better ways of addressing these issues. From the article, we have developed ridiculously complicated ways of dealing with part of the problem. Storing the cars. Other parts of the problem include tra
Other automated parking garages (Score:5, Informative)
Trevipark [trevipark.co.uk], a British firm, has a nice, rather simple technology for modest size parking garages, with several installations in Italy. Trevipark is a silo with a turntable/elevator at the center. This technology is best suited for underground storage. It's elegant in that there's very little visible on the surface.
Parksysteme [parkingsystems.de], in Germany, has been building such systems for forty years. But they haven't had many installations.
An automated garage operated in Manhattan in the 1960s.
None of these systems has reached ten installations.
Re:Other automated parking garages (Score:2)
Some better known systems are above-ground silos that are covered in glass, so you can see the contents; car distributors (i.e. BMW) use these to at the same time store inventory and show it off (especially Smart brand cars).
This is an example [nussbaum-lifts.de] of a cuboid based design; I think Parksysteme makes the cylindrical ones. There seem to be quite a bit of these around.
Re:Other automated parking garages (Score:3, Informative)
The basic problem is designing and building something that can survive a hostile environment and indifferent maintenance. Trevipark has a good system for that. The basic lift is a single big hydraulic cylinder, a reliable, rugged technology used for heavy freight elevators everywhere. On top of that is a turntable, also a reliable technology. On top of the turntable is a horizontal pallet mover, probably the least rel
hilarious! (Score:2, Informative)
Necessity is the mother of all invention. (Score:5, Informative)
The obvious observation here is that Japan and Taiwan are island countries with limited real estate and space and spatial efficiency is at a much higher premium there than it is here. Hong Kong has a similar predicament; it is landlocked by the rest of China on three sides and an ocean on the other, and has actively secured borders. (i.e., they can't just annex land or start building strip malls and boulevards like most cities in the US and Europe)
The only American analog I can think of off the top of my head is Manhattan, NYC, but I suspect that instead of being luddites, their motives against implementing such systems are economic in nature as they are the exception to the general American rule in terms of availability of real estate to build parking garages. Being an island nation definitely has influence on cultural and technological development.
Anyway, I suspect that entire graduate theses can be written on such a topic.
Re:Necessity is the mother of all invention. (Score:2)
Heck, one professor [ucla.edu] at UCLA has made a career out of it...
vertical lift systems, power failure problems (Score:5, Interesting)
NYC has had these for years; they're 3-4 spaces high, you drive into the space, the guy pushes a button, the car goes up 2-3 levels in the unit. Another car drives up, goes up 1-2. Etc until it's stacked full.
Only problem? Well, I remember a photo of a enraged car owner screaming at a parking attendant on the day of the massive NYC blackout; they're useless in a power outage; you're not getting your car out, and that's that.
"Oh, they must have had backup generators", you say. Ever been to NYC? Everything is done as cheaply as possible. They'd sell your car after you parked it if they thought they could get away with it. They're certainly not going to keep a backup generator around just in case there's a power outage- they're just going to tell you to walk home.
WOHR ... is obviously the company behind (Score:2)
And, yes, the Bosporus [woehr.de] facility (as referenced by the article for those who did not RTFA) is also there.
CC.
$25k/space is cheap... (Score:2)
If by "conventional" you mean a surface lot, or even an above-grade parking structure, then this is more costly. But the round number usually used for calculating the cost to construct a below-grade parking structure is $30,000 per space. So this system would *save* money at $25k. It wouldn't even be that bad compared to
Tons of these in Tokyo/Japan (Score:3, Informative)
There's a small un-lit sign above the entrance to these structures. If the system goes off, the sign lights up saying 'Halon gas released - do not enter' or something to that effect in Japanese...
Been doing this for a long time (Score:4, Interesting)
The "paint buck" has its Smarteye tag read and the buck gets removed from the carrier and transported down one of several aisles by a rolling lift which transverses either in one direction horizontally or vertically. You get the idea.
The ASRS (Automatic Storage & Retrieval System) makes note of where it got put and then it's off to get the next one.
The empty paint carrier leaves and goes off to get another buck.
When it comes time to load another job on to the line (to be sent to the General Assembly building where the panels will get put onto the spaceframe), the procedure gets repeated in reverse. The lift then finds the panel set of the desired color, gets it, puts it on the carriers that go to GA and then sends it on its way.
BTW, The weight of the paint buck is comparable to that of a car (probably around 3000 pounds). A-yup, they are heavy. It's an "all hands on deck" event when one of these falls off of its carrier over in our building.
Most of the time things work flawlessly, however...
The ASRS has been known to overtravel in the past and wipe out the sprinkler heads.
Has been known to put the buck in the wrong hole.
Has been known to retrieve the wrong paint buck.
Has been known to not retrieve anything.
Has been known to dump the paint bucks off from about 60 feet up (everybody out?)
Has been known to have the lift fail.
Has been known to get partially stuck, forcing Maintenance folks to perform death-defying feats to get the damm things unstuck.
So, no riding in the car when it's getting stored or retrieved.
Beware of fire and flood.
And eventually (probably soon) things will begin to wear out and the system will inevitably need to be serviced while it's getting your car.
I'm sure that it will be only a matter of time before somebody's Rolls gets upended. Read the fine print on the parking spot agreement.
John
Honest article? (Score:2)
The biggest Volvo SUV in production is the XC90. It stands 5.7' in height and weighs in at 4,493lbs. It's width is not any different than what you would find on any passenger car (~74").
This is not considered a "hefty" SUV. It's lighter and smaller than my old Volvo wagon. It's actually kind of dinky when compared to
where's the coin slot (Score:2)
Re:I don't know (Score:2)
... rest of the posting here (Score:2, Interesting)
The solution for the problem above: The goods Storage tower. Basically it operates like a giant tape robot (or those parking systems) only it stores the goods you ordered. The process is this:
- Order from an online store, indicate 'the tower' as the delivery address (requires cooperation from the online store of course)
- Store packs your stuff, drives up to the tower, puts it into the standard boxes there and taps in your code.
- The t
Tower 24 was the name of the company (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.tower24.de
Re:Please note the date... (Score:2)
Re:Please note the date... (Score:5, Interesting)
Slate would have had to have gone a long way to fake a website this detailed and then not link to it in the story.
Re:Please note the date... (Score:2, Interesting)
But hey, no big deal, just a big vending machine, had those since the 50's.
Re:Please note the date... (Score:2)
Re:Have these faults been adressed? (Score:2)
Bah. (Score:2)
What if it's on the top level? Won't be getting dripped on up there. Maybe you could charge sensible people $5 to park, and people who own Mercedes could pay $50 to be on the top level because hey, they care, and you know they can afford it.
Still, sounds like a great idea for a practical joke. Set up some device to drip paint and/or acid onto whatever is below the car. Then send it into the park. Mmmmmmm...
Re:Not with MY Mercedes ! (Score:3, Informative)
So your precious fsck'ing Mercedes would be fine.
Re:Not with MY Mercedes ! (Score:2)
(for the record, I don't have one, but a very popular motoring journalist in the UK does. His comment - last christmas, he wrote 'my merc has had 2 weeks completely trouble-free, because I was in the bahamas on holiday').
Re:Kick ass (Score:2)