Rome Moving to Linux

fmstasi writes "La Repubblica, one of the main Italian newspapers, reports shortly about an interview (in Italian) with Mariella Gramaglia, Communication Councillor at the Municipality of Rome. They are planning to start soon trying Linux on the desktop: 'The first tests will concern e-mail, address book software and sharing systems', she says. The Councillor also says that motivations are political rather than economic: 'In the short term, the money saved on license will have to be spent on training'. It seems that there haven't been any reaction yet from Microsoft: 'At Microsoft they know how much we esteem them', she says; 'for example, they are sponsoring a campaign to spread the use of computers among the elderly. And we'll keep on cooperating with them on other projects'. Maybe Microsoft also appreciates that there is (yet) no project of migrating all the clients? The Municipality has about 9,500 clients, so an eventual migration project would be slightly smaller than the one taking place in Munich."

I can't wait for the day

that some large organization moving to Linux on the desktop is not considered news anymore.

Re:I can't wait for the day

A year or two after that maybe we'll start seeing stories about the stranglehold Linux has on the desktop.

Re:I can't wait for the day

A year or two after that ...

Good. I'm glad you remembered that Rome wasn't ported in a day.

Does this mean...

All roads now lead to Linux??

Re:I can't wait for the day

It may be sooner than we all imagine. There could be a turning point if MS doesn't get control of this virus and sucurity problem. I work for small business and home computer users, bottom of the barrel stuff maybe, but even on this level people are fed up with Windows and strongly considering OS X, if not Linux quite yet.

On a corporate level, if Linux is up to the task, and the myriad costs associated with Windows are more than the costs of switching and retraining on Linux, well... maybe I'm just dreaming.

Does anyone else think MS's future position seems less certain than ever?

Let's do an analysis

Does anyone else think MS's future position seems less certain than ever?

Let's look the reasons not to switch to Linux:

• Hasn't been done before (at that scale, by such a company, int that niche etc.)
• Some needed software isn't available for Linux
• Retraining costs, support problems, etc.

If you look at all these problems, you can sum them all up into a single problem:

Linux isn't very well established on the desktop yet

But with every migration, this problems becomes smaller. With every migration more software is ported. With every migration, more people gain Linux knowledge and mindshare. With every migration others can just "copy" them with much less risks.

One niche after another, Windows will go and Linux will come. The 3d-modelling world already has switched to Linux on the desktop. Now it seems that government desktops are next.

And as I already said: With every migration, reasons not to switch to Linux diminish, so the whole thing snowballs until Linux dominates the niche (and in the long run all computing).

So I expect that a few pioneers like Munich and maybe one or 2 other big cities go from WinNT4 to Linux. When Windows 2000 is discontinued (IIRC about 2006 or 2007) a lot more will migrate to Linux and will be able to do so much faster because you can easier avoid mistakes when it has been done before and of course because lots of software is already ported. Then after Windows XP is killed (2010?), I'd expect the majority of government desktops to run Linux.

Re:Let's do an analysis

What many people don't seem to realize is that Microsoft can't give 90% discounts to everybody.

Well, they could if they didn't have such moneypits as MSN, WinCE, Stinger and XBox, but they do and somebody has to pay for all that.

Remember that this is all just the beginning. So Thailand gets huge discounts, not just for the government, but for everybody. And all this because they started a very successful Linux programme. Munich got the chance for huge discounts but they declined. (What message is that? "Even at only 10% of the normal price, Windows isn't worth it")

How long until other countries start Linux programmes? It's a win-win situation, either you run Linux or you get huge discounts from Redmond, you can't lose.

I doubt that Microsoft's tactics can work. Currently they are encouraging everybody to start Linux programs and evaluations by offering hefty discounts to them while ripping off their loyal customers.

It will take years and probably longer than a decade, but in the end Windows and MS Office (not Microsoft, they have enough money to survive virtually forever) is doomed.

Next thing you know,

A horse will be appointed governer!

Re:Next thing you know,

No, it's not off topic, it's Funny. Some people don't know their Roman history. See: Caligula [wikipedia.org] and his horse, Incitatus, [wikipedia.org] who he tried to appoint Senator.

Keep in mind folks, that it's a fine line we dance between Funny and Offtopic, because clearly, posted stories are serious things, and to have humor demands that there be something in the statement that is outside the expected line of discussion.

Trying or Doing?

They are planning to start soon trying Linux on the desktop:
The subject would suggest that it has been chosen to switch to Linux, but as we can see they are just going to be 'trying it'. How many people have 'tried' switching and given up under pressure from Micro$oft?

Re:Trying or Doing?

How many people have 'tried' switching and given up under pressure from Micro$oft?

Oh yes, especially as we all know that Microsoft is cooperating closely with the Italian Mafia. Duh.

Might it be that a lot of people/organizations switch back or abort migration projects because they find out that Linux is not the right thing for them (yet) ?

Re:Trying or Doing?

No, italian mafia is Powered By Linux :)

> telnet www.mafia.it 80
Trying 212.78.66.135...
Connected to www.mafia.it.
Escape character is '^]'.
HEAD / HTTP/1.0

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:53:50 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) (Red-Hat/Linux)
Last-Modified: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:41:36 GMT
ETag: "18094-5e-3e8b04b0"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 94
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html

Connection closed by foreign host.

Insert standard joke

Don't expect to see this right away. After all, the Roman network wasn't built in a day.

(Sorry.)

Re:Insert standard joke

the Roman network wasn't built in a day

Of course it wasn't! Have you ever had to work a CLI like this?

[caesar@router:/root]# ping -c II CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.CCLIV

PING CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.CCLIV (CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.CCLIV) from CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.XVII : LVI(LXXXIV) bytes of data.
LXIV bytes from CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.CCLIV: icmp_seq=I ttl=CCLIV time=I ms
LXIV bytes from CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.CCLIV: icmp_seq=II ttl=CCLIV time=I ms

--- CXCII.CLVIII.CCLIV.CCLIV ping statistics ---
II packets transmitted, II received, no loss, time MVIIms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = I/I/I/none ms

Rome Moving to Linux?

This is excellent news!

Hopefully we can shift London to where Rome was before and finally get some decent weather.

Angling for free training

Sounds more like they're trying to coerce Microsoft into giving them free training among other things. I'm not sold on their direction towards Linux based on the statements.

Rome GA uses Linux

I live in Rome, Georgia, and I have to say that everyone here is switching to Linux nonetheless. Well, not everyone, but my large list of friends. =)

It's a fact that things that piss us off, we do not like to continue to use. And well, you know how Italians are... Sorry Microsoft; better them use a different product than yours, than them holding a Godfather-shootout in your HQ in Redmond.

Re:Rome GA uses Linux

As much as I really like Linux and would like to see Rome using it, I think I'd still rather see a Mafia shootout in Redmond.

How long?

How long before the US government starts to notice how much foreign countries are saving with OSS?

The US government forgoing M$ would surely be the death knell of Micro$haft W1nbl0ws.

Re:How long?

" How long before the US government starts to notice how much foreign countries are saving with OSS?"

Typically the US Government is behind the rest of the world in adoption of this kind of tech. So, I would say give it 5 to 10 years after the rest of the world starts to make a serious move towards it. That 5 to 10 years would hold with how they are with other tech programs.

Re:How long?

You do have a fair amount of systems that are switching over to Linux as the servers instead of windows. Granted alot of the older ones were originally running on Solaris, then were in the process of being switched in Windows, and then got switched to Linux. However you are also starting to see a fair amount of new large scale projects that start off on Linux.
The biggest problem with Linux on the desktop and for local projects is that most branches of the military get huge enterprise licenses. For example when I was doing work with the Air Force we used Oracle because we could call a number and get a free license for Oracle, now I am working at an Army base we use MS-SQL server because I can call a number and get a free license for MS-SQL server.
Sigh, I do miss my Oracle database it was far easier to provide the solutions the users needed.

Re:How long?

The key thing, however, is that the government tends to arrogantly assume that people should deliver electronic forms etc. in formats compatible with whatever software the government uses. Increased government use of Linux will mean increased government use of things like Open Office, and inevitably some of them will start passing around Open Office files, and expect external consultancies etc. to be able to read and generate these files. That way government acceptance means that a lot of companies will have to deal with open source whether they like it or not.

Re:How long?

From the little I know about the US government I don't price is the issue. Earlier this week in the SELinux a military sysop was bemoaning the use of NT 4 because it was verified or validated or whatever. I lived in America for a long while, the government contracts I saw were filled based on how well you were connected or how much you lobbied/bribed. Microsoft has plenty of money to lobby/bribe and so I expect it will always has some sort of foothold.

However on Groklaw a military man wrote a short piece on how the military loves Linux.

So I suppose those areas that need customizability or security over the unwashed masses ability to use it will some sort of *nix.

Re:How long?

You know the official system of measurement in the US is the metric system, right? And has been since 1893. The US was even one of the original 17 signatories to the treaty of the meter. So the US government has long realised the advantage of the metric system, having been involved with it's development since Congress authorized it for use in the US in 1866.

Many federal agencies are required by law to use metric units in procurement and grants, and the meter is by law "the preferred system of weight and measures" for US trade and commerce.

Re:How long?

How long before the US government starts to notice how much foreign countries are saving with OSS?

Probably some time after they notice how much they're saving by using metric measures. I'm amazed that the US actually has a decimal currency -- with the conservative attitudes they have to these things I'd expect they'd still be using pieces of eight (though that's what "two bits" refers to).

Can you.....

"Those of Microsoft know the esteem that we have for they"

"The Common one of Rome ahead slowly towards Linux"

Can you move from M$ to Linux and still kiss M$ ass in the same article??? For the first time I really noticed it in an article.

So that means...

Roman Gnome in Rome... right?

Are you Corn Fed? [ebay.com]

When in Rome

Interesting notes such as "money saved on liscencing will have to be used on training. When will the linux desktop and desktops in general get to the point that they are so intuitive that training won't be requried? Judging by my own experience helping new computer users - not any time soon. While the interface may seem intuitive to you and me, to the complete computer newbie - it is still a challenging jungle.

Re:When in Rome

It seems that even if the interfaces are very similar, if there's even a slight difference in the look and feel about it (and as soon as there is *ANY* change) there is a need for training. I know from experience that moving from a dumb terminal environment (SunRiver [boundless.com] terminals) to Win95 workstations for a nationwide company required a LOT of training. Surprisingly, whenever an icon was added to the desktop there was an outbreak of confusion and mass hysteria, and more training was required.

Re:When in Rome

Surprisingly, whenever an icon was added to the desktop there was an outbreak of confusion and mass hysteria, and more training was required.

Why is this surprising? Most users use a computer as a toaster, and mostly by rote. Imagine if tommorrow morning your toaster has a new lever on it labelled "PBT 1.0". What is PBT? It is Perfect Brown Toast. But did you KNOW that?

Most users are afraid of this thing called a computer. Here on /. we are comfortable using comnputers, but more importantly we are the curious and adventurous types. Changes do not faze us. We start a new program, without a manual, and can still get a pretty good feel of how to use it.

But to the normal user, a new icon is a terrifying thing. "OH MY GOD, IT IS DIFFERENT!" is a standard reaction.

Perhaps the question should be

Are you really training the users in what you think you're training the users in?

Seems like you're training them that if, when an icon appears on the desktop, that rather than just getting on and dealing with it, if they react with confusion and mass hysteria, they get a day off from their regular job for cushy training.

Rich

Re:When in Rome

"The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned."
-Steve Jobs

(OK it was actually Bruce Ediger that said that, but Steve Jobs sounds better)

Well ofcourse

All roads lead to Linux!

We've got two, here is a third one...

When in Rome, do as the Romans do!

Way to go Pope

Good to see they're giving up bad software for lent.

Tux's new motto

Veni, Vidi, Vici

Re:Tux's new motto

Veni. Vidi. Libei.

Another entity using Tux as a bargaining chip

Seems to me the City is playing the "we're trying out Linux" card in as a means to publicly complain about Microsoft.

At Microsoft they know how much we esteem them.

Riiiiight. They "esteem them" enough to tell the media they are trying something else.

This has been a tactic tried and true by other customers - it gets Redmond back to the bargaining table, to knock thier bid down a few euros, just as long as they send Tux away.

'political reasons'

When I first read the slashdot writeup, I thought, "So, the Roman Catholic Church is taking a political stance againce Microsoft. This should be interesting."

I guess it's because I was just reading about Gibson's The Passion (which the Vatican seems to like, despite it being horrifically violent), and seeing this happen would be really quite funny. :P

A great success story of Linux on the desktop...

Why is Munich the frame of reference for Linux on the Desktop when the region of Extremadura (Spain) moved 80,000 desktops to Linux nearly 2 years before Munich even announced its intentions?

More time should be spent on understanding how they did it and why they have had such good results. The move has been an incredible success with copies of Linex (the debian-based distribution they created) being given away when you buy the newspaper.

And schools have transitioned to it. The key, I believe, was localization. They switch the name of openwriter to "Cervantes", the famous Spanish writer, author of Don Quijote. They did the same for all of the applications and streamlined the installation to a process that makes it dead easy for anybody to install it.

Finally, the government is subsidizing the use of linux in rural areas for first-time computer buyers by paying for a chuck of a linux-compatible computer.

So why isn't this being talked about is the greatest mistery to me. Linux is on thousands of government, school and private desktops today. And it works!

Re:A great success story of Linux on the desktop..

Miguel de Icaza has some interesting comments [ximian.com] on the Extremadura deployment.

Re:A great success story of Linux on the desktop..

Because they installed Debian, which is not commercial. Like it or not, software procurement goes in the "business" section of the newspaper, and that section is mainly information about the successes and failures of companies in doing business. Munich gets reported because it is a deal with IBM and SuSE, so we hear about how these companies are being successful in the sector. Extremadura isn't a big success for any corporate entity (as far as I can tell), nor a particularly big failure for MicroSoft; it's a great success story for the region, but that's only regional news.

I personally think that it's a much better example of adoption of OSS; Extremadura is actually using the freedoms that RMS goes on about to change the things they don't find right about the software, rather than treating the software as proprietary software sold on reasonable terms. But this won't be interesting to the newspapers until somebody in Madrid notices that Extremadura has better IT on a smaller budget.

Re:A great success story of Linux on the desktop..

In fact, the success of LinEx [linex.org] is being so great that it inspired other spanish communities, so that in Andalucia they've got Guadalinex [guadalinex.org]. In Malaga, Andalucia, there was recently an Open Source World conference [opensource...erence.com]. There, about 5000 copies were distributed. Further 100.000 copies of Guadalinex will de distributed [guadalinex.org] in 2004. Free software is alive and well in Spain [libroblanco.com], thank you :) We didn't get the press because Ballmer didn't visit us to offer 90% discounts.

Not just another "migration" story

After reading the article, those involved are being quite realistic about this test. They are investigating changes for political reasons, but they also expect long term monetary savings.

From the article: (emphasis mine)

Political issues to part, to pass from the software owner that free one would have tradursi in a good saving of money for the communal cases. "But

this probably will happen alone in the medium period", specifies the Gramaglia city council member. "In the short term, what it is saved on the licences rispende in the formation of the staff, that will have to learn to use the new instruments. There are 9500 employs to you communal, by now, that they use the computer ".

This is good for the viability of Linux on the desktop. Object studies of using Linux for desktop machines will highlight weaknesses that can be addressed.

the_crowbar

Roamin' Fingers

Arise oppressed masses, cast off your start button of enslavement, GOD IS WITH US!

Hey!

Rome didn't switch to Linux in a day, ya know!

In other news...

...Roman guards, under orders from Lineius Torvalds, seized Billus Gates as he camped outside the city. Formal charges are yet to be announced, but already crowds of Linux zealots are picketting the courthouse with signs that read "Penguify Him!"

Massive deployments of Linux desktops

Largo, Florida (400), Munich, Germany (14,000); Extremadura, Spain (80,000); Thailand (up to one million subsidized PCs to low income people, with 160,000 already shipped) and Rome now. Do you see a trend here? Massive deployments are taking place, mostly in the public sector, I think Linux has a bright future as the main option for tax funded massive deployments.

Re:Massive deployments of Linux desktops

For more info on other massive deployments taking place in Europe see The Register's Linux in Europe [theregister.co.uk].

Very interesting.

uh oh

now we'll have Roman Catholic Zealots join forces with the Linux Zealots?

Unfortunately...

...the Huns, Visigoths, and Vandals are running XP. It is said that some of these barbarians are running Windows For Workgroups, but that is just too horrible to believe.

To bad its not the City not the Church

Then we really could call non Linux users heretics.

Free Software should also be Tax Free

While I suppose, it is good for the people, when the government uses free software, I am afraid that the free software developers might become dependent on The Government.

my inner voice

Did anybody else find themselves reading the article like they were practicing for a role on the Soprano's?

I didn't do it on purpose, but halfway through the article I thought to myself "Self, why are we reading with this ridiculous accent?" Crazy, huh?

Updated version of an old joke

A prominent cardinal enters the Pope's chambers with good news and bad news.

The good news, he tells the Pontiff, is that the Vatican has received an email from God himself!

The bad news is that they've traced the IP address to an ISP in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Microsoft says...

Et tu, Mariella?

Not the Vatican...

I was hoping it was "Rome" meaning the seat of the Catholic faith. If the Vatican went Linux it'd be hard to call Linux users Commies.

Et tu Roma

Said Steve Ballmer, reeling from being penguined in the back.

Ciao bella!

What an instructive discussion! To see what the rest of the world (but mainly Americans, I suppose) thinks of us Italians is really amusing! Mafia, sopranos, the Pope, ancient Romans... Lol & lol. (Think also about pizza, icecreams, spaghetti, Venezia, mandolino and "That's amore!" please). Sociological instructive, yes. About Linux in Municipality of Rome... well I hope it's true, but you know... we are in Italy. Maybe the son of my son will see it. Ciao bella.

when in rome,

I wonder what type of wm they will use for the desktop. ?

And to help the Italians communicate....

... OpenOffice.org is adding mouse gestures.

E-mail and address book software

I'll probably get modded down as troll, but it seems to me that e-mail and adderss book software is a terrible place to start. Linux, while it has excellent individual apps, does not have one huge integrated app like Outlook available for it that will combine all these... it will require a huge adjustment in workflow, rather than if they just started with Linux servers or something.

It seems to me that they are setting themselves up for disappointment, or they want to get MS to give them a discount on Exchange and Outlook..

Yet more barbarian invaders from north of the Alps

No big deal: in Rome, they're used to this.

• 5th Century [wikipedia.org]

I can't resist

The Vatican using Linux and knowing there are Cardinals (wearing red skull caps) on staff to use it brings on a whole new meaning to "Red Hat Linux"

You may now groan.

Res publica non dominetur.

"Res publica non dominetur."

see the commercial [ibm.com]]

meaning something like esr [tuxedo.org] could have said:

"The republic will not be dominated"

good translation

the babelfish translation is horrible in some points. here are some corrections
Beginning from May, the free software will enter in Campidoglio
The Gramaglia city council member: "political Choice, not against Microsoft"
The municipality of Rome moves slowly towards Linux
"We want to give a contribution to the diversification"
by ALESSIO BALBI
ROME - "We clarify at once: we are not against Microsoft ". Mariella Gramaglia, city council member, appointed to the Communication, of the Municipality of Rome, wants to place in the just perspective what many see like the next slap arranged from the open source movement to Bill Gates and associates: beginning May, Linux will begin to replace Windows in the computers of the administration of Rome, placing Rome on the same road of Monaco and others that, in Europe and the world, have decided to entrust themselves to the free software.
A big hit for Linux and its supporters. And the risk of one ugly smack for the pockets and the image of Microsoft. But the Roman one is however only, for now, a cautious and gradual experiment: "the first tests will be on the e-mail, on the agenda software and on the data sharing", the Gramaglia city council member explains. Also, the forum and the newsgroup that the citizens use to communicate with the Municipality (through the Web portal) will be been involved in the experimentation.
Opening to Linux, the Campidoglio (=the house of Municipality) wants to supply its contribution to the debate on the diversification and the entry of new actors in the market of the software. "So far , ours can be defined one political choice", declares Gramaglia. A choice that, in this case, has met a bipartisan agreement: "the debate on the free software has been carried ahead from parliamentarians of the left, like senator Cortiana and the Folena member of parliament", explains the city council member. "But also in the right (and I think of minister Stanca) the importance of introducing open source in Public Administration is emphasized".
Political issues apart, passing from the proprietary software to free one would translate in a good saving of money for the community. "But this probably will happen only in the medium term", specifies Gramaglia. "In the short term, what it is saved on the licences is spent in the formation of the staff, that will have to learn to use the new instruments. There are 9500 employees, nowadays, that use the computers ".
Surely, for Microsoft, the perspective of losing the returns of the licences in an apparatus of these dimensions does not have to be pleasant. Someone is complaining? "Absolutely not", the city council member answers. "Those of Microsoft know the esteem that we have for them. As an example, they are the sponsors of a communal program for the computer science schooling of the elderly. And they will continue to collaborate with us on other plans ".
(26 February 2004)

Sounds like a lot of work

Wouldn't it be easier to bring Linux to Rome?

Deano says

Arividerci Microsoft...

2394 later: Rome saved again by birds !

In 390 BC, Rome was saved from the invasion of the Gauls by a flock of geese.

In 2004 AD, Rome shall be saved from the invasion of the Borg by another type of birds: PENGUINS!

From one who lives in Rome...

That's a great news, and im glad to see they are going to spend money in training, have you ever seen how people goes to work at such offices? they make everything like if they are robots themselves and if something breaks the routine is a drama. Also is funny, to see you fighting with Italian words...eh remember that Cristoforo Colombo was Italian.. Just people, dont be racist (as some post demonstrated) cause we dont have nothing to envy ;)

another victory

I feel like we should have a giant map with battle lines on it, and maybe some little plastic penguins marching across it.

"Germany is freed", "we've captured rome"

anyone want to photoshop a map?

Re:Does switching to Free Software save us money?

No, but HP one. Netcraft says for www.vatican.va: Compaq Tru64 Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.8.9 OpenSSL/0.9.6g PHP/4.2.2 12-Dec-2003 212.77.1.247 Holy See - Vatican City State