Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?

Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"

Well, I'm one example

I work for MSN - MSN which is not offered in Canada, but most of the tech support sites (or so it seems) are located here in Canada.

Re:Well, I'm one example

So, you're incapable of using the tech support mantra:

"Well, it works on my end!"

Re:Well, I'm one example

I thought that one of the big attractions of India et al. is that they're on the other side of the planet, so they can effectively extend the work day overnight. Are there going to be a bunch of third shift programming positions opening in Toronto?

Re:Well, I'm one example

No, the big attraction of India is that it's popular with big name companies, so all the idiot pretenders can jump on the bandwagon. After all, time at a keyboard is the least important part of creating an effective program. Most of the real work is done in brainstorming sessions with experts and customers. The further insulated your developers and support staff are from the user base, the less effective they become...but right now, "cost savings" is seen as a bigger issue than "effective work," because sales are down and companies are afraid of shareholder lawsuits if they don't cut costs -- costs other than executive salaries, of course.

In about three years, the big names will notice that product quality and sales have dropped dramatically while adjunct costs of outsourcing kept the price per product about the same, and they'll start looking to hire people here to clean things up. Either that, or all the great little startups popping up in this country will steal away their business.

Oh, and maybe we'll get lucky and companies will reverse the process, start hiring Indian executives willing to work for mere hundreds of thousands a year, rather than millions. This will help us effectively extend the slacking-off day.

Re:Canadian-Hungarian notation

Close, but we would actually say this: sZedBufferEh

And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

I am not willing to move north to get a job that pays 40% less than what is available here. I'd rather work outside my field.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

As a Canadian, I have to say that I'm not here for the money. Yeah, it's a little disturbing that I get paid much less than an American does, but it doesn't bother me THAT much. What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy. And I happen to really enjoy the practice of programming. I will go to where I can get the job I will enjoy the most, regardless of pay, so long as I have enough to take care of myself.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy.

Yes. That truely is what matters. Am I correct in supposing the cost of living in Canada is similar to that of the Northern US? I'm sure it is significantly less then tech-heavy places like California.

If US companies are considering outsourcing to Canada, it seems like they could try other places in the US where they could hire people for less then in California or NY.

I live in Lexington, Ky which, despite being in a state with an agriculture based economy, has a fairly large tech community. Some big name companies here are IBM and Lexmark (LEXmark LEXington.) I read somewhere where Lexington is ranked 9th in US cities in percentages of persons with at least a Bachelors degree. It's a city where you can live lavishly or have a quiet and comfortable life. Hey, I've even seen Shatner in a coffee shop here.

I think there are still lots of opportunities in the US before the Canada route is taken. There are places other then the West Coast available for programming/tech jobs.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

What if the cost of living was close to 40% less?

Think of Canada as another state. Except that while they tax you in Canada, they actually seem to do something with the tax dollars besides 'defence' spending.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.

But since the cost of living is so high in L.A. and San Fran things start to work out. From what I've seen living in both countries is that dollar for dollar many items are the same price or at least close. An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550. An American $2.00 loaf of bread is $1.00 Canadian.

My standard of living will not be changing too much when I move from the States to Canada. Even though I'm taking a pay cut.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

I'm a software developer in Toronto, my brother is a developer in Sunnyvale, CA. He has 2 years more experience than me, but is comparable in skill and experience. He makes 30-40% more (30% now, but that's because the Canadian dollar is doing better against the $US) and pays 5-10% more for rent. The cost of living is higher in the states, but if you are living in a big city in Canada (Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, not so much Montreal) the cost of living isn't that much lower.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

Of course, I went and believed a person from B.C. who told me this and now I look it up and much to my chagrin....... It ain't so [finfacts.com].

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.

Try using the International Salary Calculator [homefair.com], it's handy. According to that, if you made $80,000 USD in San Francisco, you'd need to make just over $60,000 USD in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (a.k.a. "Silicon Valley North") to enjoy the same standard of living. Also, Ottawa is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live in Canada.

The biggest difference, of course, is that housing is cheaper in Canada, and so is food. You save a LOT on your medical expenses, since Americans spend on average $5400 USD per year on medical expenses, and Canadians only spend about $3500 on average, (if I remember correctly), but get better care than the average American, though I suppose not as nice as the richest.

Also, depending on the province you live in, you can save a lot of money if they have non-profit government run auto insurance. As well, automobiles themselves are cheaper, even ones built on the same assembly line. If you want to check, go to gm.com and do a "build your own vehicle", then do the same exact thing on gmcanada.com, and compare the final MSRPs. You have to do the conversion for the exchange, but it's much cheaper in Canada, even with the higher tax rate.

Gas is more expensive in Canada (about 25% higher, depending) due to taxes, but the cities are smaller, so you tend to spend less time commuting. Other things taxed more are alcohol and cigarettes, but that's supposed to help pay for the health care. Might as well be the drinkers and smokers that carry the burden there, eh? :-)

Food is cheaper in Canada, but clothing is more expensive. Electronics are more expensive, but you can always get a buddy to pick something up for you in the U.S. at cheaper prices.

Broadband internet access is generally wider spread in Canada, and cheaper, because Canadians are more urban than our American counterparts.

Income tax itself isn't that much different anymore, though it used to be. I know for certain, since I have to file both. I'm a computer engineer, and I find that I would pay the same in either country, within a couple hundred dollars. Sales tax, of course, is higher in Canada.

If you're right leaning, you can always move to Alberta, which is a booming wild west place. If you'd prefer the government pay your way, there's always the east coast, and if you're a greenpeace member, there's always the west coast. If you're an accountant, then you'll be at home in Ontario, but Quebec's always close by for those big let-your-hair-down parties. In particular, if you can't shovel snow, Toronto's the place for you, because if it ever snows more than 3 cm, they'll declare a state of emergency and call the army in to shovel your driveway for you.

Just to be fair... Manitoba's population density is 1.9 people per square kilometre and if your dog runs away there, you can still see him running 3 days later, and Saskatchewan is a cooler version of Arizona (dog thing also applies, but the dog will probably be eaten alive by grasshoppers by the 3rd day).

Re:sorry

I'd like to know how you're paying 50% tax.

The maximum tax rate in Canada at the federal level is 29%, and that kicks in when you make more than $113,000. Since the tax rate is progressive, you pay nothing on the first $8000, 16% on the money between $8000 and $35,000, 22% on the money between $35,000 and $70,000, and 26% on the money between $70,000 and $113,000.

The highest tax rate in the country is in Newfoundland/Labrador, and at it's MAXIMUM, you pay a TOTAL (that means including federal tax) of 47.02% on money over $113,000. Remember that the tax rate is progressive. If you make $113,001, you pay 47 cents of tax on that ONE DOLLAR, but everything below that is taxed at a lower rate.

Nowhere in Canada does you full tax approach 50%. You may be paying anywhere from 30% - 40%, depending on how good a job you have.

In Alberta (the lowest tax rate in the country - a flat rate of 10%), your personal exemption is $14,337 and the federal exemption is $8012. You pay 16% federal tax up to $35,000, and a flat 10% provincial tax.

So, we'll do provincial tax first. You only have to pay tax on $20667 because of the exemption. It's 10%, so you pay $2067 provincial tax.

Federally, you would pay tax on 26988. The rate is 16% in this bracket, so that's $4318. That's a grand total of $6385 on $35,000. That works out to a total of about 18% of your gross income.

Please stop saying that we're taxed at 50%. It simply isn't true. I've given you the number, and you can do the math yourself. NOBODY IN CANADA PAYS 50% TAX.

Whether or not there's corruption and waste in the government is another discussion. (Though it is worth noting that while the government pissed our money away, the books were still balanced. We haven't had a deficit budget in years.)

Oh, and here's where I got the tax info from. Check my math yourself. It's possible that I made a mistake, but the conclusion is still true.

http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm

Re:Tax Freedom Day ....

From the site's FAQ:

The Personal Tax Freedom Day calculator, like Tax Freedom Day, includes all taxes from all levels of government that Canadians pay. This includes: income & sales taxes; liquor, tobacco, amusement & other excise taxes; automobile, fuel, & motor vehicle licence taxes;

CPP/QPP and EI contributions, medical & hospital taxes; property taxes; import duties; profit taxes; and natural resource levies.

In short, they're throwing in things that none of us consider to be taxes on income. They're saying "we" pay for corporate taxes and mining and petro royalties.

If we did this to the U.S., it would work out the same because the U.S. also has price controls on tabacco, sugar, corn and a host of other foods. Not to mention the county and state taxes on the phone bill, etc. Don't buy the propoganda.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

You also have to consider that while getting paid less, your cost of living could also be drastically reduced in Canada as well. I used to live in LA and made double than what I do now, but after moving back to Canada, my cost of living is 1/3 of what it used to be. Plus here I don't have to be paranoid about not using ATMs after dark. Of course, I will be a bit biased since I am Canadian.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

Well, the cost of living is also around 40% less (or close enough - sometimes less, sometimes more). Toronto and Vancouver are more spendy than Ottawa, Montreal, or Calgary. But you can have a very nice lifestyle making 40% of a New York or San Jose salary in those three cities. Even more so in places like Edmonton, Regina, or Winnipeg.

One challenge would be paying any US debt load (student loan, US car payment, credit card debt) with Canadian dollars.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

KPMG (the accounting firm) rated Edmonton as the #1 place to live in the western hemisphere as far as quality of living, tax levels, housing prices and job market.

It's no wonder why we're home to Bioware, Quicken, and large support centers for General Electric and Hewlett Packard.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

You miss the point. The choice is between earning 40%+ less doing something else, or earning 40% less by moving north. The high paying IT job is gone.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums, never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile, can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home, can see world class plays, theater, etc. etc. etc. Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style.

Someone's never been to Montréal...

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

Living in Canada, you may be making 40% less, but you cost of living is essentially 40% less as well, and that's including all the taxes and pension plans we pay.

Consider that a chocolate bar or a can of Coke costs $1cdn here and when across the border the same candy or Coke costs $1usd, that alone accounts for the cost of living savings. Americans can't buy new Canadian cars and import them back to the US because they are cheaper here.

Granted living in NYC has its advantages, but don't compare a large city such as NYC to some small city in Canada. Compare it to cities like Toronto, and Montreal, where you can do just the same things, and probably experience MORE culture there than in NYC. These are large international cities that host world events such as NYC, and dramatically a lot safer too. No worries of gun toting bandits in Canada.

- I once went to a sporting goods store in the US, and found stacks and stacks of bullets sitting on the floor without any sort of security with a sign marks "On sale, 25% off all calibre bullets and shotgun shells". Don't they lock up dangerous goods behind secure areas???

Wow, NYC is a freaking Xanadu!

"3)Living in NYC has it's own advantages. Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums, never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile, can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home, can see world class plays, theater, etc. etc. etc. Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style. It might be OK for people that don;t care about this kind of stuff, but not for me."

Wow, what's Tango Dancing? Museums? What the hell are plays?

This NYC place seems pretty darned fancy-looking! I should save up my 40% weaker Canadian dollars, sell my moose lodge, canoe down there, and experience what can only conceivably be a DREAM CITY IN THE **KING CLOUDS, YOU SELF-INFATUATED NY MORON.

You think freaking Tango lessons set NYC apart from the world? If *that's* your basis for judgement, you'd do us all a favour and stay put, friend.

Re:Standard of living CanadaUS

By almost every major metric, the Canadian standard of living is currently higher than the USA, and has been for a number of years.

That's because here in the US we don't use the metric system. Duh!

Canadian tech support is a pain in the ass

Okay, type su, eh?
% sua
sua: Command not found

The land of the free

Although our legal system is "similar", we lack equivalents to silly little things like the DMCA and the Patriot Act.

On the other hand, we're responsible for Celine Dion. On behalf of all Canadians, I apologize profusely.

Re:The land of the free

Having listened to pop music from the united states, and watched their tv, I can certainly say that the Canadian Content rule is most certainly a form of quality control. :-))

But seriously though, US media is a threat to national unity. If we allowed the airwaves to be flooded with US stuff, we'd lose a good deal of our Canadian identity.

I don't aplogize about Celine.

With our military the way it is...

Celine Dion is our weapon of mass destruction!

Heck, if we ever attack a country, she's on the front line singing her heart out. After one of her Monster Ballots, we just walk in with our hockey sticks and Zambonies and clean up the enemies. We don't need fancy things like short range tactical missles, or ugh.. tanks, guns, ammunition.

Actually, on a serious note, I like it that we don't spend anything on military. In the simpson's they used the joke (excuse me if I get this wrong):

Scorpio: "What country do you like the least, Italy or France"

Homer: "France"

Scorpio: "No one ever says Italy"

Then Scorpio blows up France. Well I like it that to the rest of the world Canada = Italy. The U.S. = France.

I can just imagine terrorist meeting... "Guys what country do you like the least? Canada or the US?"

-asoap

Re:No military in Canada

My god, what a post... Your right... its a slow friday and your trying to stir the shit! :)Oh well, i'll bite

Your right, Canada had a signifigant contirbution to WWII ( and I ), and in fact had the second largest Navy at the end of the second world war ( Mostly because of the shit kicking that Japan and Germany took... ). However, entering the war, that was not the case. Canada is a country that rallies at the time of war ( real wars, not political invasions... ).

Now, the biggest irony is the reason why Canada is not a military power these days... The US! Do a search on a company called AVRO. The created the CF-100, then the CF-105(Arrow). The AVRO arrow was basically decades ahead of its time ( actually, it was heavily ripped off to create the F15 ... so think F15 tech in the late 50's ). Why did this amazing aircraft never come to see day, beyond test flights??? Well, basically it boiled down to political threats from "Canada's friends to the North". It came down to America dictated to Canada, scrap the Arrow and adopt the Bowmark (sp?) missle system, or the US would start doing missle tests over Canadian airspace.

Now the real reason? Basically it boils down to one of two reasons. THe first one is a no brainer... War is a major industry for the US. Had Canada had the best jet fighter/intercepter on the market, how well would sales of the StarFighter, F4 Phantom, etc have gone? Second reason, basically boils down to the U2 spy plane. That plane was the backbone of US intelligence, however its only defence was the alltitude it flew at, and altitude the Arrow could easily fly at. Ironically, the U2 didnt prove to be that invulnerable in the end did it? I believe in the end, Gary Powers was shot down by an AA missle launch from a Mig25.

So, long story short, Canada was on route to becoming a major military power, at least industrially. One of the biggest reason that Canada isnt these days, is because America basically dictated ( weilding a big stick ), come under our protection, OR ELSE!

Finally... the world isnt really that dangerous of a place with two exceptions. 1) Nukes. 2) The US. With the end of the Cold War, the US is the only country maintaining a large and agressive force, with the possible exception of China. TO put things simply, I think the world was much safer before the US invaded Iraq, then it is now.

However, thats the nice thing about Canada... should the US join "the dark side", watch how fast the "free world" unites against you, should you invade ( and not simply annex, big difference ). Also, dont kid yourself... Canada does not have nuclear weapons... but they are pioneers in the field. I imagine it would take a matter of minutes to create a weapon. The amount of weapons grade material in Canada if you were a parnoid, and Canada not a peaceful country, would probrably keep you up at night. Canada is a peaceful country by choice, not necesity. Dont get me wrong, should a landwar happen, Canada would get clobered... a budget of 100x to 1, and a population of 10x to 1 just cant be overcomed. However, if there is another WW, its going to be nuke based... population size and military budgets mean jack-shit in those situations.

Todays conflicts are going to be resolved with terror, because frankly, the US is the only country heavily investing in the military. However, the nicest defence against terrorism, is not to be a prick. Thats a defence that Canada has mastered... the US still has a hell of alot to learn. Im not even gonna mention isreal here... they are going to be targeted by terrorists for a very very long time.

Always a good thing

As a Canadian in the IT industry, I'd be glad to see more jobs coming here, definitely. There really is very little difference between Americans and Canadians, besides cultural and political systems. None of that plays into how you sound over the phone, or how well you code.

Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.

Canada, a Freedom Loving America

It seems that the whole "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" has been outsourced to Canada. While we fight our war on drugs, Canada has sane drug laws. While we meddle in the affairs of every nation on Earth, Canada just keeps on making beer.

Beer == Good.

So, bring it on. Outsource me to Canada. I'll move there, what with their reasonable immigration policies, and shack up with a burly lumberjack babe and start my life anew.

Re:Canada, a Freedom Loving America

I dunno. My family, which was an Indian immigrant family living in the US, didn't have much in the way of problems immigrating to Canada. I think all in all, the process took less than two years. The barrier of entry to become a part of canadian society, is, in my experience, much lower than in the states.

Even getting citizenship in Canada is a breeze compared to the states, especially for us "third world escapees". After I had lived here for 5 years, I applied for citizenship, and within a year and half, had gone through the entire process.

I don't know where you're getting those statements from, but they definitely don't reflect my experience with Canadian immigration. I find the bureaucracy here to be much more tempered than in the states. Not nearly as much red tape to deal with.

-Laxitive

Its been happening for years.....

Outsourcing to Canada has been going on for a while, mostly because of Canada's trusted status in matters of security. Even the evil Haliburton corporations big clusters are now living happily in Toronto along with dozens of others. I should know - I installed them - (and my karma aches for it)

This is like unemployment numbers

Everyone talks about first-time unemployment claims, but very few take the time to track what happens to the unemployed over time. Ditto for outsourcing projects. Most of the ones i've heard of or been involved with were ultimately cancelled due to incongruent labor laws, time differences, language barriers, quality control issues, et al.

heh

speak English with nearly American accents

<obligatory British joke>
So they pronouce English slightly better then? ;)
</obligatory British joke>

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...? I work cheaper than all of them combined. There are plenty of people in the USA who will work for less - it's better than no work at all.

Re:Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...? Probably afraid of the language barrier. :)

If You Choose To Move...

You'll have to learn the Canadian alphabet:

A, ay!, B, ay!, C, ay!, D, ay! . . . .

/thanks, don't forget to tip the bar

Want your fries without gravy?

While it's true that the accents are "nearly the same," there are *some* diffs that will creep in.

BTW, even the McDonald's in Ottawa would offer gravy on their fries. Gravy on McDONALD'S FRIES??? What is this heresy?

Tim

I should have it so well.

So, for 40% less than what I'm currently making, I could live in a nation that gives a crap about hockey [flamesgirls.com], has a much smaller crime rate, has major domestic beers that don't taste like piss [labatts.ca], and a health care system available to all its citizens?

Where can I sign up? Really.

It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

a health care system available to all its citizens?

My wife has family all over Canada, and I can tell you that from their experiences, the healthcare system isn't all that great. While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped. And I remember something about how the banking industry isn't that good up there, so you don't get decent interest rates. Or something like that, I can't remember. I just meant to say that it is no "wonderland", they do have their own issues.

But damn, are they polite up there. We went there on our honeymoon, took a 2 day tour on the Rocky Mountaineer [rockymountaineer.com]. When we were pulling out of the station in Vancouver, there was graffiti sprayed on a nearby overpass. What did it say?
"Welcome to Vancouver".
Cracked my ass UP. Victoria was absolutely beautiful, I would move there in a second if I thought I could find a job.

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

For the sake of accuracy I'll clarify the problems with medicare here. It is not difficult to see a doctor or get emergency treatment in the least. There are waiting times for patients who are not critical at emergency rooms but I don't think that is any different than in the USA.

One of the biggest problems we have here is with medical imaging. The cost of MRI equipement and technicians is absolutely astronomical which makes funding these clinics publically much more difficult than normal clinical staff in a hospital. Imaging is a pre-operative necessity in and this respect the entire system is gummed up at one point. Of course to the ignorant it looks as if the whole system doesn't work. That's not the case at all.

Upon inspection of most public healthcare programs here the major stumbling points usually have nothing to do with the talent of the staff or funding as such but more so to do with economic pressure from the south. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are used to train RN's and MD's who take work south of the border every year. Canadian healthcare workers are a rare breed who get paid peanuts compared to their US counterparts because they believe in equal access for all. The idea of uncomprimised equality for all is a very much a part of our culture in Canada. It is indeed no wonderland however our detractors from south of the border usually don't know all the details.

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped.

You mean just like with my HMO, which is one of the top 10 US HMOs [tufts-health.com]?

Re:I should have it so well.

You missed one.. The cost of living is also around 40% lower in expensive Canadian cities than expensive American cities; so you really do go without much.

In my opinion ...

It's aboot time people recognized this. Ootsourcing is better done in Canada. At least you can understand what people are talking aboot.

Can we trust them?

I'm not sure that we can trust the Canadians yet. I'm still recovering from Brian Adams.

But the flipside...

Before any of you go packing your bags for Canada, just stop and think:
sure, you'll have a job; and sure you'll be working out of your own apartment instead of driving 2.5 hours to a cubicle somewhere; and sure you'll probably earn more on the whole than any of your other Canadian friends...
But really, half your income goes to the government, and what you're left with doesn't go as far, cause an iPod costs six hundred bloody dollars here, and... and... you have to say "bloody" in casual conversation... and "eh", sometimes, too... and...
Please don't come here! I can't take any more competition!

I'm moving to Vancouver next month

From L.A. But, I'm Canadian and just came down to L.A. to make some American money.

I'm part of what Canada calls the "Brain Drain" where large numbers of highly (yet cheaply) educated Canadians rush to the States after graduating. The U.S. (California in particular) provided an opportunity to make a lot of money. My company stopped hiring Canadians (and actually anyone out-of-state) soon after I started, to cut out relocation costs.

I've been saying that companies should out-source to Canada ever since this out-sourcing thing became a big deal. Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?

40% is all relative.

I think the cost of living is nearly 40% less as well - and as others have pointed out already, we get a fair bit in return for our tax dollar. With the exception of a few really interesting US cities - I would much prefer to live anywhere in Canada over any US city (and I've been to at least a dozen states for work, so I know what I'm talking about).

As a point of interest, my company tranferred me to London, England for 2 years. Overnight my salary more than doubled, but my costs more than tripled. I've since moved back and despite the large paycut from returning to a Canadian salary, it works out better for me in the end due to cost of living differences.

Mercer human resources has a chart [mercerhr.com]outlining cost-of-living differences in the world. Ottawa - my current home - is almost exactly 40% cheaper than New York. Canada's most expensive city (Toronto) is only slightly higher than the US's lowest city (Pittsburgh).

Personal experience.

I'm an american who HAS moved north up to Montreal to program (games for that matter), and cost of living in the city here are less than where I was in NY (Poughkeepsie), and if I were to move just 30 min outside of Montreal, cost of living would drop more than 40% less than where I was in NY, probably in the order of 60-80% less.

For example, a typical, 2500-3000 sq ft house around Poughkeepsie (Hopewell Jct to be specific) went for about 300-800k USD. A friend of mine bought a 2500 sq ft (ranch) house 15 min drive from down town Montreal for 140k CAD, with a pool and a very nice neighbourhood.

140k CAD is aprox 100k USD(at about 70 cents to the canadian dollar). So by this rough (I am sure prices in Hopewell have soared even higher), at worst the price is 66% less, and at best upwards of 88% less than the US counter part in that area.

Is it worth it? Thats for you to decide. I know I have more disposable income, even when converted to USD.

I do have the added benefit of being a dual citizen, but that is a minor issue. As long as you have a degree and a letter from a company stating you have a standing job offer in Canada, it's a matter of going to the border patrol office and they will do a little paper work (from what I have been told, less than a hour) and you are all set.

Canadian Accents? What's that aboot?

speak English with nearly American accents

This quip really made my day. Now I know that accents vary over North America, but the idea that the "Canadian" accent is distinctly different from an "American" accent is really laughable.

Compare a New England accent to a Southern accent to a Maritime, to an Ottawa valley, to who knows what other region. Accents vary by much greater degrees within the two countries than they do between them. Or do most Americans feel like Canadians all talk the same, and that is somehow different from all Americans? I'd love to hear opinions on this... Cue South Park quotes now...

Too Bad

Half of them think we are Evil [torontofreepress.com]

well then

We can really blame canada.

As a Canadian Programmer

... while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"

I think it might be time to move South!

80% Savings 40% Savings

Companies do NOT care if you have talk to a guy speaking Spanglish, Engrish, or Hinduish - They only care about saving money and doing things for LESS.

COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it. From their past track record companies WILL DO whatever they can GET AWAY WITH - until we unite and make a law about it.

SO GET OUT THERE and crack some skulls!

Canadian Sysadmin

I'm more or less a sysadmin in my position (which is to say I generally take care of anything computer'ish here). Current wage is $25.5/h (CAD), with Blue Cross for medical/dental benefits, a pension, 3 weeks paid holidays (this is my year 2), etc

If I moved, I could make a lot more, but I'm also currently living in a small town. So if you wanted to compare:

• Wage: $25.5/h + benefits
• Rent: 2bdrm apt at $415/mo, I've seen a full (nice looking) house for $700/mo
• Gas: Currently around $0.80-$0.90/L
• Nearest larger community: 115km (where I live, no theatre/mall but most of the rest of what you'd need to not go insane.)
• Groceries a bit more expensive sometimes, but we just got a new grocery store so that should add competition
• Electronics: fairly pricey, except for games which are oddly about par
• High speed internet: $25.5-35.5/mo for residential ADSL, $85/mo for business /w fixed-IP (both fairly reliable)
• Oh, and yes the majority of people my age are hicks or married. Ah well, can't win 'em all

If I moved to a larger city, rent could probably be around $600-800+ for about the same accomodations as I have now, gas would be up a bit, car insurance insane... but I'd also be expecting to make a fair bit more so it would probably still put me ahead.

Where do I sign up

About once a week it seems when there is a story talking about Canada, invariably there are many posts to the effect of

"Looks like I'll be moving up north" or

"Where do I sign up?"

Well, you can Sign up here [cic.gc.ca]

Thats the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website, with all the forms and whatnot for admission to the country. Enjoy!

"Nearly American accents"?

As a Canadian, I think it is hilarious that the article claims that we have "nearly American accents". There is more variety within either country than there are differences between them when it comes to how their residents speak. What exactly is this "American accent" that we so nearly mimic? A southern drawl? A Brooklyn accent? Perhaps something milder from the midwest?

I challenge the average Slashdot reader to grab a life-long resident of Alberta and Montana at random and decide who is who based not on their word choice or beliefs, but strictly their accent.

Health Care Costs

I work in an internatinoal company. We have made a conscious decision to keep our software development in Canada because it's cheaper. Salaries are about the same in Canada, but in Canadian, not U.S., dollars. And health care costs are much less for Canadian companies because most of it is paid for by the government.

The down side, of course, is more tax. And the CBC.

Please, don't.

No, don't move up north. We have the same problem here as the United States does. Too many programmers not enough jobs. That's why it's so damn cheap.

You'll find it even harder to find a job then we do being a foreigner without a permanent visa.

50% tax rates??

Tax rates are tiered in Canada. For someone making $50,000 Canadian a year, their yearly tax would be about $12,000--this includes fed + prov + Canada Pension Plan + tax credits.

The approximate tax rates are (fed+prov combined):

Up to 35,000: ~22%
Up to ~70,000: ~31%
Over 70,000: ~38%

But we also receive tax credits, and if you contribute $ to your retirement savings plan you can greatly reduce the amount of tax paid.

Overall I pay about 26% tax on my yearly income. Nowhere near 50%!

Re:50% tax rates??

When you hear 50% tax rates, they are including all the ways the government taxes us, not just income tax.

"[This calculator includes] all taxes from all levels of government that Canadians pay. This includes: income & sales taxes; liquor, tobacco, amusement & other excise taxes; automobile, fuel, & motor vehicle licence taxes; CPP/QPP and EI contributions, medical & hospital taxes; property taxes; import duties; profit taxes; and natural resource levies"

You can find the Fraser Institute (right-wing thinktank) tax freedom calculator [fraserinstitute.ca] here. Just did mine (for Ontario) and it turned out to be almost exactly 50%.

Why not outsource IT to Canada...?

Not outsource US IT to Canada? They outsourced hockey to the US decades ago....

You know what?

This whole thing is stupid. Say a New York City or San Francisco company saves money by outsourcing to Canada, a place where a housing isn't $400 a square foot and salaries are not inflated. They could probably get very similar savings if they oursourced to WVa or TN and be sung praises as heros for boosting local American economies. On the same note, west coast and east coast companies spending millions on leases for data centers could save millions by moving to America's heartland. Plus they could just leave the windows open in the colder months and reduce their electric bills for cooling. Ok, the last part is a stretch.

Outsource to the US

Where I live in Illinois, the cost of living is:

55% less than New York, NY
43% less than San Francisco
21.5% less than San Diego
18.8% less than Los Angeles

And my city is slightly above the national average for cost of living.

UN says Canada is a better place to live

According to a recent U.N. report [thestar.com] Canada is the 4th best place to live, above the USA.

Pay Scales in Canada

To say you would make 40% less is a gross exagoration. From what ive seen, the payscale is pretty much inline to what most of the states is. The amount of money that you take home at the end of the month means squat. Its all about standard of living.

As an example, im in London, Ontario, which has a population of about 350K. Im a fairly high level developer, basically one step below IT manager. I pull in about 60K a year. From my understanding, I could go to New York city and basically double my salary, and have a 10% less tax to pay. Ditto, I could go to Toronto, and make about the same almost double what I make now ( more like 40% more ), but really what does that money buy me.

I am in the process of buying a luxury loft, 1,700 square feet in size, for about 150K. From what I understand, the same would cost me about about 400K in Toronto, and probrably well over 1/2 million in either NY or Cali. After, expenses, taxes and all that crap, im probrably left with about 1,500 a month of disposable income. That includes my mortgage, car payment, getting reamed for taxes ( that part aint a myth :) ).

As to currency differences, to be honest, I dont really see any. When I go visit our Lansing site in Michigan, I pay basically the same as I would in canada when I eat out, get a hotel, order a beer. It used to be we could cross the border and save a ton of cash on things like gas, smokes, groceries, etc... but now, thats no longer true. Actually, I have a friend whos business consists of buying vehicles in Canada, and driving them up to the States for resale. Gives you a hit at how the exchange rates work :)

There are plenty of reasons to chose one country over the other... but wage sure isnt one of them. Cost of living/standard of living is the most important thing... wage is... when comparing one location to another... just a useless number.

We're full up! Please go away!

Nope, nope. We're all full up here in Canada. Yes, please go away.

You won't like it here. It's cold, yeah.... It's 25 C here in Vancouver. Brrrr.

Yes, that's right. Our healthcare system sucks. That's right. Please go away. *cough*, *cough*. Just ignore the international reports saying we has slightly better life expectancies.

Try Mexico or, maybe, India...?

Lots of good Canadian companies

Here are three Canadian tech companies that produce products I use at work everyday: Miranda [miranda.com], International Datacasting [intldata.ca], Broadview Software [broadviewsoftware.com]. Nice to have NAFTA and not have to pay tarrifs!

Our company already "off-shores" to Canada

We do most of our cutting-edge R&D in the US and send our mature products to our Calgary division for late-stage releases and support. Its about 30% cheaper.

You don't lose 40%

You may lose 40% compared to US dollars but you don't lose anything when comparing quality of life.

You gain free universal health care, safer streets, lots of water, better beer and you get to live in the homeland of the most famous TV and music stars ;)

Re:Because Canada is fucking freezing

Get a clue. Not all of Canada is a frozen wasteland.

I live in BC. In a desert.

Seriously.

Portions of the interior of BC, around the Thompson-Okanagan region are actually considered deserts. We get little precipitation (ie: snow) and in the summer temperatures can hit 40 degrees C or 104 F.

In winter, we don't usually drop below -10 (about 15 F).

Vancouver, a 3 hour drive away, gets almost no snow in the winter (although a lot of rain) and is more temperate in the summer.

Re:French-Canadians?

That's not true at all. The only section of Canada that is dominated by French is Quebec (85%) and they don't even want to be a part of Canada... That's a whole other issue though. In fact most provinces have less than 5% French speaking citizens. Especially out west, we have less than 2% french speaking citizens. Your statement is like me saying that everyone in the US speaks with a spanish accent.
Here's some census in fo for you.
1996 Census info on Language [communication.gc.ca]