All Digital TVs To Include Copy Restrictions

michael hirschorn writes: "The code would sit in the guts of your digital TV or set-top box and would essentially eat up any bit of programming deemed off limits." Deja vu. It's a recurring theme: every piece of electronics in your home will include code designed to prevent you from using it in any way that Hollywood doesn't like.

Re:Planned obsolescence

And, as always, these devices will only hurt the average consumer who has never cost "content providers" any money at all

What? Sure you have! (Hear me out...)

The big-time pirates generally don't cost these companies much, since they sell in markets the MPAAers generally ignore due to too low sales.

No, copy restrictions exist to stop that casual copying. Your copy of the "Lion King" got trashed when your kid got curious about what was behind that little door? If you had a backup copy and don't buy a new one, that's money out of Mr. Eisner's pocket. Can't have that, thus we have Macrovision. Doesn't stop your content pirate -- even small-timers could just buy a "video stabilizer" -- but it stops your average consumer.

The RIAA knows just how much extra they made selling you the same music twice, first on vinyl and then on CDs. Now there's a new format, but they don't get a cut. Horrors! Kill it quick!

Illegal copies may be the rationalization, but let's be very clear here; it's the money that *legal* copying would keep out of their pockets that they're worried about. Ditto region coding, which exists supposedly so they can sell DVDs in the US while they're in the theaters elsewhere. So why is "Casablanca" region-coded? It's because exclusive distribution contracts keep the cash flowing in.

can't possibly be ALL of them...

what about taiwanese/korean manufacturers? just like they have region-free dvd players, someone's gonna make a digital tv that lets you record what you want... don't worry about it too much.
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057

Re:Control freaks of America.

That's right friend, it's the citizens of the USA that are trying to ram this down the world's throat. I took a break from my job as a programmer today to meet with the mechanic down the road, the coffee shop clerk, and the local firemen to discuss our further plans to control and censor digital signals around the world. Hell, all us Americans have a hand in this. I'm suprised nobody caught on to this earlier.

I believe you are making the mistake of generalizing that all Americans are behind anything an American (or for that matter Global, and last time I checked Sony was from Japan) company does. This is not an American problem, it's a corporate and government problem, so before you assume that the universally hated USA is behind this, check with the corporations in your back yard. Are they opposing this or right behind it?

Need I remind you of RIP? Do you think it's just our Government and Corporations that are tring to to censor and control things? Please, we have one of the less strict Governments when it comes to censoring the net.

Finkployd

Re:What about computer monitors?

Nobody is upset (well except for some geeks) over DVD region coding and CSS because it's minor and really doesn't affect them....yet

If you're in Region 1, maybe - but here in the UK, apparently 80% of DVD players now have region coding disabled. A non-techie friend is planning to buy a DVD player for home, and I asked what he was looking for; in the list of "must-haves", he mentioned it must have region coding disabled - something along the lines of "I'm not dumb enough to pay money for crippleware!"

Plenty of people whine about MP3 being inferior quality, and no match for a CD. I can't hear the difference, TBH - and if MP3 is so poor, why are the RIAA and co so worried about Napster? Similarly, if analogue TV is so crap, WTF have we all been paying money for it all these years?!

Basically, if digital TV is crippled in this way, I won't go for it. Here in the UK, even if I do go for digital, it'll be through a set top box - which produces a nice unprotected analogue signal for my VCR and TV. You want me to "up"grade to something, where the only "advantage" is that you can prevent me doing what I want? Forget it.

They're Targeting the Kids

The mass public is too apathetic to get off their soggy arses and demand that they receive better treatment. The hullabaloo you read on Slashdot is an extreme minority view (and even those who cry loudest will are too likely to do nothing).

The mass adult public will be disgruntled, but they'll accept it.

The *kids*, on the other hand, will grow up believing that the normal way of the world is for corporations to have ulimate control over everything.

This begins to sound like a paranoid statement, but I think there's a kernel of truth to it: Corporate America is making moves towards creating a society in which Corporate Government is the accepted norm, and in which citizens are, first and foremost, passive consumers of goods and, secondly, passive labourers in production of goods.

Indeed, it's like the old mining towns, reborn on a national scale. You work for the company and you spend your money at the company store, live in the company house and drive the company car.

We're condemning our kids.

--

Re:Control freaks of America.

"I have no idea why these gun nuts think that a few hours of practice a week will enable them and a few of their friends to stand up to a US army battalion."

I think the idea is that things can become so intolerable that entire military divisions can become sympathetic to an antigovernment cause,
as happened against the British, and as happened when the "south" divided from the "north".

If this isn't a possibility, then things aren't
intolerable enough yet, and the revolution must wait. I think it will not occur until "they" take away cable tv. As long as they have that,
they think they are free.

Re:What about computer monitors?

This has the blessing of the FCC, the backing of all the major broadcastors, and all the major electronics producers.

Wrong, on point three. The Consumer Electronics Association (ie the major consumer electronics producers) are fighting this idea, they are afraid that consumers will think these copy protection schemes are completely daft and won't buy into it, thus preventing CEA members from selling any of this new expensive new digital kit. If you read the article you'd also kmow that the CEA is considering taking legal action to prevent this proposal from happening, based on the 1984 Supreme Court Betamax decision that gave the smack-down to the MPAA/broadcasters over fair use, it was the decision that confirmed that consumers have the right to time and media shift content for personal use all they want. IMO if the CEA gets this to the SC the MPAA will get handed another beating, as the controls they are seeking with this scheme go far beyound the bounds of legal copyright protection.

On a side note I can't help but wonder if Sony's internal politics are nearing a point of civil war, as a both a major consumer electronics manufactorer and a major "content" publisher the two factions must be near blows over this issue. Executive meetings must be getting pretty heated, with electronics VP's and content VP's at each others throats. I for one would love to hear from a Sony insider about how the company's culture is dealing with this particular schizophrenia...

Re:This is sad.

Are TV execs really that worried about bootleg copies of Will and Grace running amok on the 'net?

I think they're more worried about people copying pay-per-view movies.

Take artillery, point at foot, fire...

If there was ever a way to destroy an industry, this seems like it. It appears that if the MPAA and television networks get what they want, they will seriously damage the entire VCR, and the newly growing TiVo-style device market. Along with the digital TV market, and probably television in general.

I can't say I'd be totally upset at them committing what looks like it could very well be suicide, maybe someone else would come along who doesn't worship only the almightly dollar. (in America? hahahaha not a chance)

There are just way too many restrictions they're trying to get here. I know they like the copy-never idea so they can prevent the erosion of the idea of prime-time and the like which devices like TiVo are killing, and by preventing you from taping a show for a friend, or for later, they can look toward services where they can make you PAY to watch it if you didn't catch it at the "free" time (doesn't anyone else think this would be a great marketing idea? like a 'pay archive' of shows).

There has never been any sort of problem with people "copying" shows off of TV in ways harmful to the industry. I don't see how most of those controls are justified in any manner whatsoever except looking toward future profits. Profits they might very well never get if they get their way.
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Planned obsolescence

Under the proposed plan, programs recorded from a given TV will only be viewable on that TV. So, not only will I be unable to view my recorded programs in my den if I recorded them on my living room TV, I'll also have to trash my entire library of recordings when I replace the TV I record them from.

And, as always, these devices will only hurt the average consumer who has never cost "content providers" any money at all, while the big-time "content pirates" will easily find ways around them.

But the thing I hate the most about this whole situation is that, once again, it points out that businesses think I'm a thief and should be treated like one.

Re:Planned obsolescence

Your copy of the "Lion King" got trashed when your kid got curious about what was behind that little door? If you had a backup copy and don't buy a new one, that's money out of Mr. Eisner's pocket.

In other words, they want it both ways. When I want to publically show my tape, I paid to license the content, and the license forbids that. I didn't buy a tangible thing at all. If the tape is damaged and I still want to view the content, THEN suddenly, I bought a tangible thing and it's broke, so I should buy another one.

What about computer monitors?

Maybe I'm missing some of the nomenclature here, but how is a digital TV different than a computer monitor? I'd sure like to hope that these TV's (or large, flatscreen digital monitors, which is what they are) have the capability to display a computer signal on them. If this is the case, then you just don't use the tuner that's in the TV and replace it with a computer with a digital out video card, and your problem is fixed.

Piracy will always be there, this is about control. Consumers are stupid, but as we saw with Divx, they aren't THAT stupid. Those digital TV's are hella expensive, and if you think I'm going to drop a few grand on something that won't do whatever the hell I want with it, then you're dead wrong, and I think a lot of people think along the same lines.

Re:Control freaks of America.

Sure you do, until your broadcast and media companies realize the windfall of cash they can get from going pay per view. Greed is not only an American trait (although I'll admit it's more prevelant here)

Digital TV in UK already has the ability to use copy protection - every digibox has a macrovision encoder built in. However it is only turned on for pay per view, nor is likely to be turned on for anything else in the future. How can I be so sure of this? Besides the non commercial BBC, video recording are actually included in the ratings for a programme up to three weeks after it was shown - so the commercial broadcasters still (theoretically) get paid when you watch the video recording. I say theoretically because you would have to be in one of the 4000 homes that actually create the ratings in order to have effect, but if the statistics of ratings hold true then it shouldn't matter. As for fear of Tivo's, well Sky actually have quite a hand in TiVo's UK service - providing the subscriber management and technical backend. Not only that but they are soon to release there own combind Digital Sattelite/TiVo like box.

Actually, its the corporations that now own the government. I and my mechanic friend may do everything in our power to prevent this, but our power doesn't compare with the power of the rich corporations, who can buy the government's power to do whatever they want. We face a pretty bleak future if there is nothing we can do to stand up to a corporate owned state that can do whatever it wants to us. And you guys wonder why we want to keep our guns? It's the only form of power we still maintain. I honestly hope it never comes to a revolution but how much should we take?

So your much hyped (to the point of sacred) Constitution has failed then? Really? There is nothing you can do except hold on to you gun untill revolution version 2 comes? You think the corporations can't afford bigger, better guns than average person on the street? Maybe you should actually try democracy. Thier seems to be quite a few americans on slashdot who don't like what is going, yet do nothing about it (other than complain about it to the rest of the world and/or consider moveing to canada). Organize a political movement. With so many apathetic non voters out thier it shouldn't be that hard to make a difference . So what if it is only niche - as long as it's vocal enough then people will listen - just look at the Green party in Europe. Niche they are, and while they are no where near in control thier voice is often heard and taken into account by the more mainstream groups. They certainly don't get thier own way, but at least they get some concessions in thier favour. An example here would be that while there would still be copy protection you would still have some right to make personal recordings. So no one would be entirely happy - but that's the point of compromise - better for every one to be unhappy than for one side to be happy and one side looking to violence as thier last and only recourse.

Will we have better or worse luck with Bush's FCC?

Hallmarks of the Clinton Era include the CDA and the DMCA. His administration seemed to have zero concern for infomation privacy and consumer rights. What about Bush? Will his FCC be business-friendly and let Hollywood have their way? Or will they refuse to force copy restrictions in digital appliances in the name of "de-regulation?"

I think it all comes down to whether Republicans want to be more friendly to the big business of entertainment or the big business of consumer electronics. Which group gave more money to the party?

Let's wait and see what happens.

--
"How many six year olds does it take to design software?"

Under DMCA, it CAN be ALL of them...

Unfortunately, the offshore manufacturers will still be subject to MPAA control if they want to ship their products to the US, because the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) prohibits 'circumvention devices', and any unlicensed electronics which decode the digital bitstream would come under the prohibition. That is one reason why the MPAA and RIAA purchased the DMCA in the first place.

Re:This is sad.

I think what the industry is worried about is a "TiVo/Napster" - ie a device that you tell it what show you want to watch, and it will go out on the net and grab a copy right now, without you having to set your schedule around the networks' schedules. With people no longer a slave to live TV, they won't be watching the commercials (because it's easy to skip them or edit them out either on the server that's providing them, or on your playback unit). And the prospect of people watching their content without watching their commercials has network execs shitting their pants.

TiVo is already giving them nightmares, but a TiVo that had access to any TV show or movie in the world with essentially unlimited storage capacity (because it would stream off the server instead of storing it locally) would be too much for them to take.

I have had my TiVo for a month, and I watch a lot more TV, but see far fewer commercials because I fast forward through them. I expect if TiVo catches on that we're going to start seeing blipverts any day now.

Re:Maybe in the USA... not here in Europe.

You can buy region-free DVD players in the US. MPAA member Sony, [dvdcity.com] for example, sells one through DVD City. Of course, the MPAA is trying to counter this, [dvdcity.com] but my guess is that the cat-and-mouse game will be won by the hardware makers (and consumers).

Control freaks of America.

What's the fascination you Americans have with control and censorship? you just don't seem happy unless you're attempting to exert control over others.

Digital TV is here, now, in Europe. No built in copy control. Satellite, cable and broadcast digital television.

But, I guess you'll have to go invent your own standards and multiple versions of them if your mobile phone industry is anything to go by.

Re:I wouldn't worry too much....

Speaking of recurring themes: How come every time an article goes up on Slashdot about some new type of copy protection or use restriction there are several posts stating that "someone will crack it", but never any stating "I will/can crack it."

It seems to me that the few people capable of creating PSX mod chips or DeCSS or whatever are going to grow tired of the harassment that inevitably comes with distributing things like that. As the means of tracking those people down gets better their numbers (or willingness to crack) will almost certainyl decline.

I for one would rather put some effort into trying to make sure that the people who make TVs, DVD players, movies, etc. know that I do not want them to dictate when and where I use a product that I legitimately bought. I would rather there be no need to sit back and wait for someone else to crack some new crypto. Eliminating it in the first place seems to be a much better strategy than hoping someone will crack it for me.

Does this mean a cure for dyslexia is coming?

Think about it. The media bastards are pissing people off right and left. The don't give a rip and lots of people have switched to a broadcast free lifestyle. If this trend continues who gets hurt? The dyslexics. Where do they turn when everyone else if opening books?

So, I predict this will lead to a dyslexic lobby akin in power to the NRA. They will demand and recieve research funding the likes of which haven't been seen since trinity and the scourge of dyslexia will be finally conquered.

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Re:Control freaks of America.

Continuing the stupid troll/flame war, since it seems to get people modded up, and if I don't Karma Whore soon I won't have my +1 bonus....

I sure hope your digital TV isn't at all interactive, because that'd mean it was covered by BT's patent on linking. "Oh, but that's different-- it's a corporation. You 'mericans have control over your government." What-- you don't have any control over the companies operating within your borders? Sure you do!

"Hey Americans, stand up to your government, stop being so whiny." Yes, we should. And you should stand up to all the stupid shit going on Europe. Do you? All of it? Of course not.

Let's stop the stupid flame wars (or at least put 'em at -1, so I don't have to read them WHEN I'M BROWSING AT 4, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD), because it's stupid, hypocritical, and unproductive. Let me stipulate that Americans are stupid, Europeans are stupid, and let's get on with it. Censorship is stupid, patents on hyperlinking are stupid, American TV sucks, the BBC sucks, oh, and I forgot, Canada sucks too. Get over it and say something intelligent.

Re:Will we have better or worse luck with Bush's F

His nominee as replacement for Janet Reno was one of the few people fighting FOR the rights of individuals to be able to encrypt data without being forced to turn over keys to government agencies. [securityfocus.org]

Of course you won't see this on the slashdot front page, as just about everyone with editorial control has some kind of irrational fear of republicians in general and Bush in particular.

I think it all comes down to whether Republicans want to be more friendly to the big business of entertainment or the big business of consumer electronics. Which group gave more money to the party?

I work for money. I choose to use some of that money to contribute to organizations that share my goals and philosophies, and expect them to lobby on my behalf. I don't begrudge companies that do the same, so long as they are not a monopoly (in the legal sense, in which case they have some pretty tight limits on what they are allowed to do).

IMHO... Bill

Re:This is sad.

I guess the next step will then be the software to prevent you from changing channels when commercials come on. ;-)

The other side

Since everyone here is saying it's not going to happen, I'm gonna take the other side here.

It's getting worse. Copy protecting will not just be an issue of you not being able to copy your favorite CDs, but it will become an invasion of privacy. In order to "enforce" their copyrighting, companies will monitor what you're doing. Sure, they'll make their mistakes such as not patenting things and the DeCSS incident (e-mail me if you want the code). However, as time goes by new formats will appear and Hollywood will stop producing for the older "non-protected" formats. You'll soon end up with movie players that decrypt the disc, encrypt the output (no in-between recorders will work), and have a TV that decrypts the input.

Of course, even with remote checking, hacks will happen. So now what do they do? They make your regster your machine, and make a license agreement that says that they can come into your house and check your equipment any time that they wish.

Think it's rediculous? Not really. All you need is a few major film companies to decide to use a particular format and refuse to publish in any other format. Either you watch their movies their way, or you don't watch them at all.

Now let us say that you get a boot-let machine and now you're going to order your favorite film, right? They'll think of that too. Each machine will have its own unique key, and in order to have anything sent to them, they'll have to call a service center, send their key and a phone number. The center calls back the number and verifies the key. Oops, now you're registered and they've got your address.

Next argument: you don't have a license on your machine. Their take: so what? We'll place a license on the film saying we can check the equipment your use to watch it, and since they've got your phone number, you're out of luck AGAIN.

Ok, so you've got your machine now, but they can't stop you from using it right? Of course they can. You've just violated their agreement by using non-approved equipment to view their materials. Next step: Court, then a fine, and jail time.

Now, please don't say they won't go that far because nobody will buy it. Give it five years and at this rate people will become apathetic. It's like the book "Animal Farm". You slowly ween them of their food/rights, and then they don't notice. And don't expect people to not go with it just because of the fact that they don't like it. Just wait 'till all the blockbusters are licensed like this. It's their way or the highway - agian.

Be afraid...be very afraid...

Like Karma doesn't matter...
Moderators: -1, nested, oldest first!

Re:What about computer monitors?

DIVX failed because it was a small pissant company behind it with no government support. This has the blessing of the FCC, the backing of all the major broadcastors, and all the major electronics producers. Once analog signals are turned off and replaced completly with digital (I predict 5-10 years) you will not have a choice but to upgrade your TV, throw out your usless VCR, replace all your tapes with DVDs and welcome to a pay per view world. Think the public won't stand for this? Neither do I but it COULD work under certain circumstances.

1) They do it slowly...which they have been doing. Nobody is upset (well except for some geeks) over DVD region coding and CSS because it's minor and really doesn't affect them....yet

2) They promise it is for out benefit...They don't have to tell us about all the copy prevention and content control, all Joe Q Public needs to hear is that it's better. Better picture, better sound, even cheaper media (I predict that DVD's will be soon cheaper than VHS, since they are cheaper to produce and they want everyone on a controlable medium.

3) There is no clear "bad guy"...when the customers bitch about the expense of a pay per view world, the FCC will blame the broadcastors for demanding this protection, the broadcastors blame the equipment manufacturers for designing the system they have to use, and the equipment makers blame the FCC for forcing them to use the standard. Even if one of these groups gets hit hard by the public to change back to the old analog system, all three would have to agree.

4) The law...No matter how much you bitch, it's illegal to broadcast non-encrypted and controlled media, it's illegal to make encryption circumvention TVs (oops, already covered under the DMCA), and fair use, while still legal, is impossible.

The only people who see this coming and get mad about it are us. Everyone else sees the possibility of digital quality TV and will be blindsided with the pay per view part after it's too late.

Finkployd

Re:I wouldn't worry too much....

And promptly be sued, or most likely prosecuted by the US government. I don't see DeCSS succeding in making region codes usless. No set top DVD player has DeCSS code in it, what happens when no TV can view an non approved digital signal?

Finkployd

Re:This is sad.

This is less of an issue over copyright protection as it is over power. The media is looking at new distribution medium that has true potential to destroy them. The TV industry is worried about the same thing the RIAA is: being obsolete.

But they have realized that in the reality of consumerism, the Internet must be used to distribute old media content before it will grow to have its on media content. Everything they can do to discourage the new distribution format, they believe, is in their favor.

Re:Uh...

What makes you think you should be able to copy them?

Because we feel like it. It's our country, not some Hollywood exec's.