Review of Ergonomic Evoluent VerticalMouse 3

JJJumper writes "CoolTechZone.com reviews Evoluent's VerticalMouse 3 mouse that's touted to be the world's most health conscious, ergonomics friendly mouse in the world. And it's vertical, too, instead of horizontal. The review states, "Unlike other mice, Evoluent's VerticalMouse 3 stands vertical to locate your hand in a handshake position, or where the arm is in 90-degrees form from the tabletop. It even has a small lip at the bottom to prevent your little finger from touching the desk. According to the company, this is the most natural position for the hand to be in and it reduces a magnitude of stress from your hand, wrist and arm. Apparently traditional mice with horizontal statures twist your lower arm and put unnecessary stress on its vital areas. We must admit that getting used to the mouse didn't take too long, even though it was slightly awkward to get used to in the beginning. After all, old habits die hard."

Looks Nice

[stoolpigeon]

You can pick it up at Amazon [amazon.com] for $60.23. About 20 bucks below retail - not a bad deal.

That is an affiliate link- if you consider that to be a problem, you don't want to click on it.

Re:Looks Nice

[Bieeanda]

There's a left-handed version too, for us southpaws, but Amazon's got it for eighty bucks, where the right-handed one is going for sixty. Discrimination, I say!

Re:Looks Nice

[stoolpigeon]

Being a lefty is just hard - The Human Solution [thehumansolution.com] has it for less. I am not familiar with them, their level of service, etc. but it looks like they've got the left handed versions for about $70.
 
I'm fortunate - I write and eat left handed but do just about everything else right handed.

Re:

[Incongruity]

I purchased version 2 of this mouse and one other product from The Human Solution and they were fantastic with regards to customer service -- every email I sent to them was answered promptly and both of my orders shipped quickly.

(and for the record, I'm not affiliated with them in any way other than having been their customer on two occasions -- I wouldn't have said anything but the previous post kinda invited it...)

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

so are you ambidextrous - or does each thing have a preferred style? can you switch hit (this is assuming you play baseball - or cricket I guess)
 
I read somewhere a while back that one theory is that some people are born right handed - and others are born with no preference. Of those born without preference, some become right handed and others left. This does seem to be born out in the number of people who are left handed, but only for some of their activities.

Re:

[0100010001010011]

Hurray for being a 'bastard' southpaw.

Left Handed:
Writing
Tennis
Soldering
Knives
Spoons

Right Handed:
Mice
Throwing
Kicking

Either:
Forks

The really weird exception to the rule is FPS... back in my FPS days I would always use my left hand. I think it's because I don't like moving my left hand as much as my left fingers, and FPS I only need minute control over the mouse as I do all movement with the keypad.

Who knows.

Re:

[eldepeche]

You kick with your right hand? That's fucked.

Re:

[jimstapleton]

As another alternative, newegg has one for slightly cheaper ($1 cheaper), but some people might like to know that as well.

Looks Nice, but UK buyers get stiffed again

[Anonymous Coward]

> You can pick it up at Amazon for $60.23.

Whereas on amazon.co.uk, it's 76 *pounds*, or roughly $150.

Ye flippin' gods...

Re:

[Lunar_Lamp]

I haven't searched in detail, but this company from the USA seems to be shipping it to the UK at a sane price: http://store.ergocube.com/evsu.html [ergocube.com]

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

It seems - from a rather quick glance on my part - that a lot of stuff maps across pretty close as far as price number-wise (sorry I don't know the correct terminology to describe this - but for instance the DVD "Flags of Our Fathers" is 17.49 dollars and 19.49 pounds - not close in terms of value - but a similar price point) so I'm guessing, based on my very limited knowledge of economics that this has to do with the dollar being weak? So it may cost you a lot in the UK or other parts of Europe, but would

Re:

[montyzooooma]

I bought one a week ago from Techready in the UK (google it) for a cost of about 60 quid including carriage. Worth every penny IMO. Before that I used a Microsoft Natural Wireless laser mouse 3000(I think that's the number - the ergonomic one) but the 45 degree slant to the palm surface just didn't cut it for my RSI and I still got numb fingers etc. My stalwart ergo mouse before that was the Quill Mouse http://www.keytools-ergonomics.co.uk/mice/airobic . asp [keytools-e...mics.co.uk] - don't buy it, just observe its awesome horror. T

Re:

[PopeRatzo]

I agree. I've tried this vertical mouse and I'm not sure I could get used to it. Maybe the standard mouse or trackball configuration has been hardwired into my brain or something. At the office, I've got this Logitech trackball thing that has a scroll wheel and it's terrific, however I find it hard to use when I'm editing audio or music using Sonar or Cubase. When I'm editing media (audio or video) I do a lot of "selecting" and I find that harder with a trackball (and impossible with a touchpad).

The r

What about comfort?

[gravos]

The review seems only to be touting the health benefits of using the mouse, but if it really reduced stress on key parts of your wrist and arm I expect it would be a lot more comfortable, too. The only problem I can forsee is that it wouldn't fit on those roll-out trays that a lot of desks have for your keyboard and mouse, and that's a pretty serious drawback.

Seat Position

[OctoberSky]

I, like many office workers, sit in an non-OSHA approved seating position while at work. My chair is at it's lowest height, leaned back as far as it will go, and my arm is not near a 90 degree angle. But I'm damn comfortable. My mouse is pointed at "11:00" because that's how my wrist like it. My brain is trained to understand that forward towards the monitor will lead the mouse pointer diaganol towards the top right of the screen. Moving the mouse diagonaly left/forward, moves the pointer vertically on the screen.

To compensate for the fact that I don't have a "natural" or "ergonomic" keyboard I have changed my finger position from the standard "asd fjkl;" line up to "cdsa nkl;" my fingers make the "ergonomic" shape.

They make these things for people who sit "properly" the only problem is that most people don't sit "properly"

Re:

[Odin_Tiger]

I hear ya. Low chair, leaned back, and my mouse sits more like 10:00, tho, and my comfortable finger placement is "a-w-e-f j-i-o-;". I also keep my keyboard far out in front of me, because it lets me rest nearly my entire forearm on the desk, and the mousepad is a little to the right, partway in front of the keyboard (it comes about as far in as the left side of the numpad), so my elbow sits on my chair's armrest and my hand is at the natural height and position it would sit at anyways when I use the mouse

Re:

[gbjbaanb]

yeah, thats it. Chair all the way back, ergonomic cushion round the neck to reduce neckstrain, soothing music on the headphones to relieve stress, .... someone wake me up when its 5:30 please.

Re:

[HTH NE1]

I have changed my finger position from the standard "asd fjkl;" line up to "cdsa nkl;" my fingers make the "ergonomic" shape.

Interesting. Why C and N for the index fingers? I'd expect C and M, or V and N, to follow symmetry.

I wish split ergonomic keyboards would have redundant Y and B keys, one for each hand.

Anyway, I don't find palms facing each other as a restful position. Something has to support them otherwise I'm having to exert force to keep them that way. Relaxed with my arms in front of me, I'm

Youth is a sickness....

[jotaeleemeese]

..... cured with the passing of time. You know what is a problem with bad positions when sitting? Very often it *feels* very comfortable.

Why to pay attention to ergonomic specialists, doctors, etc. regarding how to work in a desk if *I* know better?

Good luck to your back, it is going to need it.

Useless

[nlitement]

I have never experienced any pain or stress, even if I sit at my computer for extended ("unhealthy") periods. Why would you pay an extra buck to get a sketchy guarantee for a healthier wrist? The health effect on your wrist from a regular mouse is probably very minute.

Re:Useless

[LullySing]

Wait till you get older. People tend to think they're invincible until they get injured ( a past self included) and then suddenly realise just how humanly frail we can be.

Re:

[Odin_Tiger]

Fortunately, I'm young but I still know better. Any time I even think my wrist(s) might be getting vaguely kinda-sorta sore, I take it easy on the computer use for a few weeks, switch to mousing left-handed and / or using a trackball (actually easy except for games), change keyboard angle, etc. You don't need extreme solutions like a vertical mouse to keep healthy, you just need to pay attention to your body and take preventative measures as needed.

Re:

[hibiki_r]

And then there's people to which good posture comes naturally, so they don't have half as many aches, regardless of their age.

It's amazing how many people are completely unaware of how bad their posture is: keyboards at the edge of their desks, chairs that are set up too high and too straight, mice that are too far from the keyboard, screens that are too far down... the list is endless.

As far as computer usage goes, comfort has little to do with being young or old, but with being aware of your body.

Re:

[louks]

IANA Ergonomics Expert, but from a computing standpoint, this is not the best idea for a mouse. With a standard mouse, finer motion control of the mouse is done with the fingertips and wrist, not the hand and arm. With a vertical mouse, you are controlling the cursor by moving the entire arm, including the shoulder. Sure, you eliminate finger arthritis pain, but muscles used for gross motor control are not optimal for pointing to the nearest pixel. I can forsee more shoulder problems and tennis elbow af

Re:

[jimicus]

Your argument sounds like "It's never affected me so therefore it's pointless".

Bullshit.

The problem with a normal mouse is that it encourages you to do a lot of sideways movement from your wrist, whereas the correct technique is supposed to be "move your entire forearm to move the mouse".

I had intense pain in the wrists, but a trackball solved that by changing the joints which do the moving to the fingers - which are designed to move around all day in many more directions than the wrist is. I'd expect that

like a fatguy eating butter before his heart attac

[spineboy]

He doesn't experience much pain or discomfort, but then it hits him. Your wrist/hand may not be complaining now, but may in time, eventually have some problems.
A mouse tends to keep a wrist at its full pronation (hand down) - which is not a normal thing. Anything that stresses a joint at its limit is morelikely to cause problems.

Re:

[abigor]

Wrong, but of course it depends on how much you use a computer. For those of us who sit in front of it day in, day out, doing our jobs, mouse pain is a huge issue (for me it's my elbow and the top of my forearm).

One solution is to master keyboard shortcuts and just avoid the mouse altogether.

Not Useless

[rrhal]

Many people can benefit from this mouse. I used to have pain that ran from my shoulder down to my forearm. I was using a MS Optical Mouse. When I switched to V2 of the Evoluent that pain went away. I'm very happy with it.

I found the learning curve was pretty flat. You are using the same fingers for everything its just turned 90 degrees.

There were no Vista drivers last I checked. The generic driver works for the main functions though.

Re:

[arthurpaliden]

Because by the time it starts to hurt it is too late.

Re:

[Rohan427]

I've spent many years coding and playing games. I've been using computers since the XT came out. My jobs over the years, as well as some of my hobbies, have heavily involved the use of computers. I have found that within the past year or so my wrist has started becoming sore after shorter and shorter periods at the computer. Especially when using a grpahics program that involves a lot of mousing. In addition, my wrist will become stiff and I will have to crack it to alleviate the stiffness.

So, I told my

Re:

[Zepalesque]

Just keep at it - RSI tends to not be noticeable while you are slowly being damaged. Then one day it kicks in. No really, you won't see it coming.

For your own sake, please consider at least sitting in a fairly ergonomic position. Both Apple and Microsoft have extensive sites on the subject:

http://www.apple.com/about/ergonomics/ [apple.com]

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/hcg/hcg_view.msp x [microsoft.com]

Perific

[richie2000]

The Evoluent looks good, but it's still only usable in one single position as far as I can tell from the write-up. Even though this is a better and more natural position than regular mice, I'd rather use a mouse that promotes changes in posture, like this one: http://www.perific.com/products/ [perific.com]

No sir, I don't like it.

[Half-pint HAL]

I did some office ergonomics training after suffering a mousing injury, and I loathe Evoluent's mice. Unfortunately central H&S keep going over my head and bringing in outside consultants who keep selling us these pieces of cr*p (on a nice commission, too).

Why do I say pieces of cr*p? Well, you're supposed to grip stuff with your fingers. Everyone knows it -- doctors, physiotherapists, even ring-tailed lemurs. Unfortunately, when you're using one of these, your fingers are all sat on top of buttons. If

Re:

[Alistar]

I actually have a version 2 of the Evoluent mouse and I quite like it.

I find it incredibly comfortable to use and it had completley removed the pain I used to get in my hands and forearm.

Now, I do understand what you are saying and when I first got this mouse that is what I had done, gripped it with my palm cause otherwise if didn't feel right not having some grip on it. However, after a week of that, it wasn't very comfortable, so what I do is keep no grip on it. When I move my hand it just moves the mouse

ExtremeTech has a review as well...

[puppetman]

right here. [extremetech.com]

They seemed to like it as well.

This Mouse is not good it made my problem worse

[Anonymous Coward]

This Mouse is not good it made my problem worse.

I have problems with my right hand and I have tried every ergonomic mouse that I could get my hands on. The best mouse I have found is the 3M Ergonomic Mouse
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ergono mics/home/products/ergonomicmouse/ [3m.com]

I do a lot of cad work and my wrist started hurting even though I was using a Logitech ergonomic mouse. I knew I needed to get a mouse that was vertical. I tried many mice and ended up using the Evoluent Vertical Mouse. My wrist stopped hurting but after two weeks the tendons on the back of my hand started hurting. I think it was because the scroll wheel on the Evoluent Vertical Mouse is too close and you end up bending your fingers a lot to use it. Before the Evoluent mouse my hand tendons were fine and after they started hurting. The tendon problem is worse then the original wrist problem and it still plagues me so I am pretty annoyed about that.
The mouse I use now is the 3M Ergonomic Mouse and it is really nice. The only problem is that it has no scroll wheel (that is why I didn't use it in the first place). I will gladly give up the scroll wheel for no pain in my hand.

Wish I didn't have this problem.

Re:

[fbjon]

You can get a keyboard with a scroll wheel on the left side.

Re:

[dunkelfalke]

i had an easier solution - just switched to a digitizer. added bonus is that the colleagues stopped to use my workstation when i was away.

Re:

[Half-pint HAL]

Scroll-wheels are bad for you. Full stop.

Basically, wherever it is, you have to lift your finger and bend it. Your fingers are only controlled by two main muscles -- one bends, one straightens. To lift your finger you need to use the "straighten" muscle (extensor), and to bend you're using the opposing muscle (flexor). this means you're fighting with yourself and putting more tension on the tendons.

People keep trying to fix problems by making more fancy mice, but in the end, a decent keyboard interface ca

Re:

[fbjon]

I think all of these problems point to one basic thing: the human/computer interface is fundamentally flawed as it is, or at least woefully inadequate.

Here're my thoughts: if use the keyboard for a lot of typing and shortcuts, get a nice touch screen monitor, for the occasional clicking on link/repositioning cursor/dragging icon. Revert to mouse for more complex pointing actions. Optionally use a trackball or one of these mouses for extended mousing, use a joystick for Google Earth, switch hands occasionall

Re:

[wikinerd]

Both of my hands also suffer from extreme pain. In my case it's not only the wrists but also other areas. I have tried a variety of ergonomic products, albeit not vertical mice yet. No product seems to be perfect, although a few have helped me relieve from some pain. I use both hands to control my trackballs and mice, and I use a special keyboard and helps minimise excessive use of the right hand (typematrix). I have found that using your left hand as well to control the mouse, and switching between th

Re:

[bryan1945]

Don't know if this will work for you, but my wrist went back to normal after I got a trackball. I use a 5 year old Kensington, so they should have some newer stuff, but it has good software and a natural grip to it. You can program it to emulate scroll functions and such. Might be worth a few minutes to check out their stuff.

Re:

[MichaelSmith]

Try changing to a left handed configuration. Worked for me.

Link

[Mockylock]

Link seems to be getting crushed at the moment. Here's an alternate.

http://www.evoluent.com/

no wireless = no VM

[illegalcortex]

I used to use the VM2, but their failure to produce a wireless model has kept my Logitech G7 firmly in hand. I've found that using the Kinesis keyboard has been sufficient to reduce all of my hand pain.

why has nobody done a Joystick interface??

[RobertLTux]

it seems to me that a lot of the problem it the whole scoot scoot scoot scoot factor so a properly calibrated joystick would fix that (since everything turns to absolute positions)
but nobody has done a Joystick as a mouse driver (okay it would blow the pacman factor into hyperspace but...) heck your emacs fans could work the airplane pedals in.

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

The 3-M ergonomic mouse [amazon.com] looks like a joystick - but isn't. You still have to move it around like a regular mouse. I think the thing is, they are trying to keep the wrist as immobile as possible and have the motion come from the arm. A joystick doesn't accomplish that goal.

Here's a prototype, of a sort

[mkcmkc]

I was thinking about this during a spell of RSI years ago and came up with this (weegie) [sourceforge.net]. It's almost usable, at least to the kind of person who'd consider learning Dvorak or a Twiddler. I'd love it if someone could figure out something better than our current keyboard/mouse arrangement.

Re:

[wagemonkey]

That's easy enough :-)
I'd go for a Cykey [demon.co.uk] for the left hand and a tablet [wacom.com](with pen) for the right.

I have a graphire xl (and a MX1000) and I used to use a Microwiter AgendA so I can recommend this. I wish they did a wired version too for desktop use. I like some of the Logitech mice as the slope fits very well with a rest position for my hands - they naturally seem to fall at about 45 degress, not perpendicular to the desk. For me a VM would be as much of a twist as a normal, but in the opposite direction,

Re:

[mkcmkc]

Looks interesting. The main problem for me with many of these alternative keyboards is that it's not clear how control/alt/etc modifiers are handled. For me this is quite important.

Shouldn't be too hard...

[niceone]

Shouldn't be too hard to convert a regular optical mouse to do this. I think all you'd need was a hammer and some duct tape. But you could say that about most things I suppose.

EM500 from 3M

[bmw]

I recently discovered this other ergonomic mouse from 3M that has really saved my wrists. It's not the greatest mouse in the world (wish Logitech would buy the design) but the benefit to my health has been amazing. I was beginning to have lots of wrist pain when using a normal mouse and switching to one of these permanently alleviated any pain I was having. I highly recommend either this or the mouse featured in the posted article. This "handshake position" is really how we should have been using mice all along.

http://www.airtech.net/3mermousnewv.html [airtech.net]

Re:

[masonbrown]

Yep, I mine saved me too, along with the 60-day transition to DVORAK key mapping.

The main benefit that I see is that all the motion comes from your upper arm and shoulder, not from your wrist.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ergono mics/home/products/ergonomicmouse/ [3m.com]

Re:

[bmw]

The main benefit that I see is that all the motion comes from your upper arm and shoulder, not from your wrist.

Yeah, that definitely helps. I also found that a large part of it (for me) was just the position of my wrist. Even without movement I found that if I held my hand/wrist in the position you would use for a normal mouse then I would feel quite a bit of tension in my wrist. If I turned my wrist to the handshake position I found that the tension would go away. For most people this is probably not somet

The 9 word CmdrTaco review...

[WIAKywbfatw]

"No wireless. Fewer buttons than a Logitech MX610. Lame."

Big Hands

[sckeener]

I have one. Chevron recommends them to their employees. Personally I like it; however I have to be very careful with it or the edge of my hand will rest on the table as I move the mouse around. I do not have very big hands and I suspect that people that do would have a problem. Basically it needs to be a little taller

YANVM: Yet Another Vertical Mouse

[Drogo007]

Like these:

http://www.ergo-items.com/3m_ergonomic_mouse.htm [ergo-items.com]

http://www.ergo-items.com/quillMouse.htm [ergo-items.com]

http://www.ergo-items.com/zero_tension_mouse.htm [ergo-items.com]

Not to mention the mouse we used to call "Richard Mouse" back in the day (about 10 years ago) when I was just getting my start in the gaming industry and the place I worked bought an "ergonomic" mouse that operated on these principles so we could test it with our game.

Good, but not great

[CastrTroy]

I knew a guy who had a similar mouse called the "quill mouse" (I think). He found it comfortable, and I tried it a few times, but the problem I has was that the mouse would move to the left as you pressed the buttons. Hard to be really accurate when you're pushing the mouse to the left just to click a button.

Foot pedals

[Scutter]

I remember trying out a foot-pedal mouse a few years back at Comdex. IIRC, the left foot tilt forward and backwards was left and right click, and the right foot on a 360 rocker was the mouse control. It was extremely easy and accurate, although probably not fast enough for gaming. But paired with a regular handheld mouse, was highly useful. Without the handheld, it meant you could operate the interface without taking your hands off the keyboard. I don't remember who made it.

I've got Version 2 ...

[cnj]

... and I love the thing. I use (the left-hand model) with my Kinesis keyboard [kinesis-ergo.com], and for the first time in my life i haven't had those annoying pains when at the computer for long time.

Kinesis (I think) will actually let you try the mouse for a while and then return it (money-back satisfaction guarantee) although there's a possibility that it's just for thei keyboards (although I thought it included the mouse also) -- might be worth paying the little extra than you can get it for elsewhere. J&R [jr.com] was the

I just tested it!

[rehtonAesoohC]

Well, ok, it was only in my mind, but that counts, right?

Actually, I just turned my normal mouse on its side and started moving it around seeing how it would feel if it actually worked that way... To be honest, it was a bit more comfortable on my wrist, but I realized that I would lose an important function of the traditional orientation.

How many people use their fingers to move the mouse around? I know I do on occasion... When I'm making fine adjustments to my pointer, I don't move my whole wrist, I move my fingers only, and that reason alone keeps me from buying the vertical mouse. With your hand in the handshake position, you won't be able to move the mouse with your fingers, and won't get the same fine-grained control as you would with fingers.

Also, their "expert opinions" note on the article seems a bit flaky:

Some doctors who specialize in ergonomics consider the vertical position preferable.

Some doctors? It just seems like some doctor with a degree held one and said, "Yeah that feels a bit better." They made no mention of a medical reason to use one over any other mouse, they simply said, "It might feel a little better."

Re:

[sewiv]

I use my thumb and pinky to move my evoluent most of the time, actually. It's very easy to do, and very precise.

Re:

[vux984]

Some doctors? It just seems like some doctor with a degree held one and said, "Yeah that feels a bit better." They made no mention of a medical reason to use one over any other mouse, they simply said, "It might feel a little better."

I completely agree with your post overall. However, you implied a question about why the vertical vs horizontal has a medical basis:

http://www.evoluent.com/vm3.html [evoluent.com]

The skeletal picture illustrates the idea fairly well.

Or stand up, and let your arms fall to your sides, the natur

I actually have this mouse

[UniAce]

I actually have an Evoluent VerticalMouse3. I got it because I suffer from tendonitis.

I switch back and forth between the VM3 and a Contour Perfit (optical) mouse [contourdesign.com] because I find that both tend to relieve tension in one area (e.g., the radial nerve) but cause tension in another (e.g., the palm, or the back of the hand).

For the Contour Perfit, there are different sizes and different models for right vs. left-handed use (I use a large right-handed one). They're designed so that your whole hand rests o

Drivers only for 32-bit XP, Vista

[morningstar8]

Note that the only supported drivers for this mouse (and its predecessor) are for 32-bit XP and Vista. (See the driver download page at http://www.evoluent.com/download.htm [evoluent.com].) The site links to a "freeware" driver provided by somebody else, but it had enough issues that I had to uninstall it.

I own an Evoluent VerticalMouse 2, which became an $80 paperweight after my work OS became WinXP x64. Evoluent's support told me that no 64-bit driver was forthcoming.

It lacks one very important detail...

[Chabil Ha']

The VM3 is two-toned, with the palm side of the mouse coated with a rubber-like substance for a better grip, and the other half sporting a glossy, almost grainy surface.

Put a racing stripe on that baby and I'm sold!

Just a bad copy

[node159]

A work college of mine had a similar thing, was basically a broken joystick that slid around the table. It was infuriating to use, but whatever gets you off I guess... This thing looks like a poor rip off.

The final word on "repetitive stress disorder"

[erroneus]

No matter what you do, there is no part of the human body that doesn't suffer when repetitive activity occurs for any amount of time. It mystifies me that people believe that changing positions or movements will change anything over the long term. Even if we could "think" at our computers to operate them, we'd still end up with some form of stress disorder. It has been shown that people who use voice recognition systems ALSO suffer from "RSD." How ridiculous is that? And I don't think it would be a str

Re:

[jimicus]

A few years ago, I had exactly this problem.

This is the UK, where we supposedly have strong health and safety legislation. My employer's compliance department looked carefully at their legal requirements, concluded that all they had to do was "recommend I see my doctor" and they were off the hook. Even if my doctor said "I can't help you, you'll have to speak to on a private basis" - tough.

Fortunately, my line manager (and his line manager) had rather more sense than that. They were nice enough to pay f

Re:

[CastrTroy]

It's amazing that it took you so long and so much money to eventually figure out what you should really do is "try a bunch of different stuff, and see what works for you". I remember when the "natural" keyboards came out and everybody and their brother had one. I didn't really like them too much myself. But people kept on saying you had to have one, because they were so much better. The point is to find something that works for you. There is no single right keyboard or mouse for everyone. It's good th

Re:

[jimicus]

Actually, I wanted to try out a few things fairly early on in the proceedings. But said employer wouldn't pay for a thing unless and until it had been recommended by someone else, and this was the kind of place where you probably wouldn't be allowed to provide your own keyboard and mouse.

Came out of it OK in the end, they let me take the keyboard & trackball with me when I left and I still use them today.

Re:

[CastrTroy]

I work in a small company, I was provided a mouse by my employer, but I like trackballs, so i brought in my own. I don't think a lot of employers would have a huge problem with this, they don't make you wear company shoes, or a company uniform at most offices, or use a specific coffee cup, why should they restrict which keyboards and mice you use?

Re:

[jimicus]

At the time I was working in a pretty large company and larger companies tend to be more anal about these things for fear of legal liability - they want the liability line to be clearly drawn so there's no question whose problem it is when something like that happens.

As it stands, the keyboard they recommended (and bought) me came to a total of about £225 (same set would cost about $225 in the States - go figure). Fantastic piece of kit, and if the existing one failed I'd buy another in a heartbeat,

Pain Issues

[lymond01]

One thing that I keep hearing about in my department is shoulder pain...sort of a constant ache around the right shoulder blade (if you're right-mouse-handed). This is due to you having your shoulder raised for hours a day working with the mouse. You don't notice it really -- your shoulder's probably raised only 1/2 and inch or so, but it's all day long so the muscle builds up a mighty knot and can leave people reaching over their shoulders rubbing their back each day. You have to have a great ergonomic

Re:

[BeanThere]

Shoulder pains can also be from sitting in a slouched or slightly hunched position for long periods. One might tend to do this automatically if your screen is set to too high a resolution and/or if your eyesight isn't that great.

Boring -- when do we get the gloves?

[cellocgw]

Only partly joking: this vertical mouse is at best marginally different from many other mice out there. I'm a long-time trackball lover, but here's the question I want to ask: how long until we get a track/point/click glove? We've all seen those MediaLab demos of one open-air motion interpreting device or another, so how long until a reasonably affordable (presumably BlueTooth) glove-like device comes along?

Irony in a Morissette way...

[bluephone]

I just bought one of these last week on a recommendation from a friend. I have big hands, about 3.75" across at the palm, and found this mouse to be a little small in the height for me, and too "thick" to comfortably hold with big hands. Also, it's a very light mouse. Many mice have a metal weight in them so that they have more substance, this mouse has none, so it's very light in the hand. This gives it s cheap feel, IMO, and the mouse buttons share that light-cheap feel too.

The shape is ok, but I for one

Most ergonomic mice fix half the problem...

[mschaef]

Most of the ergonomic mice I've seen fix about half the ergonomic problem with mice. They focus on the position of the user's hand and wrist, ignoring the fact that on a desktop PC operated by a right handed user, the mouse is located to the right of the keyboard, past the arrow keys and numeric keypad. Any amount of mouse use involves either moving the keyboard to the left or holding your arm extended to the right for a potentially extended period of time. I'm not an expert, but this seems far removed from

inputdev?

[tknd]

Who came up with that? Is it so hard to have two tags: input, device? Or did they mean development resulting in tags: input, development?

Two mice

[amyhughes]

I don't think my problem is arm position, but rather repetitive button-pressing stress, particularly with 3D apps, which require a lot of prolonged button holding.

I have a second mouse to the left of my keyboard, and switch off occasionally to reduce usage with the right hand. It'd be nice if I could reverse the buttons on only the left mouse, so I could use either interchangeably, but I can't, so I have to swap the buttons in the control pannel and switch mice.

Alternatively, I can rotate the left mouse 180

I get shoulder problems, this would make it worse.

[guidryp]

I have been mousing for 20+ years. I never had hand-wrist problems, but I do have TOS (Thoracic Outlet Syndrome) on my right side. I have now switched to left hand mouse usage, it definitely gets worse when I revert to right hand mouse.

In my opinion this would make it worse by needing more movements of the arm/shoulder to mouse where right now a lot of it is wrist fingertip action.

Also my hand is already close to neutral when I mouse with a conventional mouse, it is about 45 degrees with the pinky down and

MySQL Error

[leandrod]

Right now the page linked is but a MySQL error. Incredible, every other time I get an error message instead of a page, it is a MySQL or MS SQL Server DB error. Rarely it is an application error, or from some other SGBD.

Granted MySQL is more popular, but still...

Oh well

[kilodelta]

DB function failed with error number 1194 Table 'mos_session' is marked as crashed and should be repaired SQL=SELECT session_id FROM mos_session WHERE session_id=MD5('c24915053b9c853fc1772dd0c1366e02') SQL = SELECT session_id FROM mos_session WHERE session_id=MD5('c24915053b9c853fc1772dd0c1366e02') And I know how to fix the above. It's a bad index and all they need to do is a REPAIR TABLE mos_session;

Reposition?

[wiredlogic]

It looks interesting but it seems like it would be hard to lift and reposition the mouse without pressing the buttons. With a conventional mouse you can use a pincer grip of the thumb and pinky to lift the mouse up. Here you have sloping sides and a pinky button to make that much more difficult.

Re:

[rrhal]

It is easy to just rock it up on its edge about 30 degree is all you need then you can repostion on the mouse pad. It's kind of hard to explain but easy to do.

Ergonomic Keyboards and Mice

[JiveBay]

I posted on my blog a list of Ergonomic Keyboards and Mice [jivebay.com] links I had collected, here is what I had:

Enablemart [enablemart.com] - This seems to be a third party seller but I've yet to find out who makes all the equipment they sell
3M Ergonomic Products [3m.com] - Notable is the Ergonomic Mouse that looks kind of like a joystick
Kinesis Corporation [kinesis-ergo.com] - Another third party place that sells ergonomic items (they have chairs also)
Perific [perific.com] - Their main product is the Wireless Dual Mouse
Evoluent [evoluent.com] - They are known for the VerticalMouse

Cheap plastic

[mshurpik]

It looks like this mouse is made out of the same cheap plastic as every other mouse.

Can I get that material in a sofa, or maybe in some flashy evening-wear? After all, if this mouse is the latest, greatest thing, then I want to have it all over my house. I'll gladly replace oriental rugs and leather with plastic if that's what it takes to stay current.

Oh wait, mice are disposable. I buy a new one every week. OK, now it makes sense.

sounds good

[wikinerd]

I use trackballs, and many times I find myself trying to hold them vertically to ease the pain on my hands. I plan to try a vertical mouse (or vertical trackball if I can find one) soon. As a side note, if you suffer from pain on your hands you should use an ergonomic keyboard as well, preferably one with Dvorak layout. I use TypeMatrix [typematrix.com] keyboards and they have helped my hands a lot.

Spoiler Alert

[volpe]

After all, old habits die hard.

Thanks a lot. The fourth movie's not even out yet, and you reveal the fifth movie's title, you insensitive clod.

Are there any studies?

[GWBasic]

The last time I used an "ergonomic" mouse, it caused me problems after 2-3 months. I switched to an el-cheapo ($30) Microsoft mouse and my problems went away instantly.

Has anyone conducted any studies that confirm/deny that this mouse is more ergonomic then my standard-faire Microsoft mouse? I'd like to know what percentage of people have wrist problems after using this mouse for 3, 6, 9, and 12 months. Just because the mouse is a funky shape doesn't mean it's any better.

Re:

[CastrTroy]

I find it odd that after such a long time you could not get used to the devices. I have been using trackballs for the last 5 years. I remember when I got my first one, it took a few days, maybe a week to get used to, and then I was done. Since I've had a couple different trackballs, and don't have any problem using them. I find trackballs are the best, because you can put them in the right position, and they stay there. Also, I find it a lot easier to just move my thumb or fingers (depending on the tra

Re:

[egghat]

Fully second this.

The Logitech TrackMan Wheel was single best thing I've bought in the last 5 years or so.

While the new vertical mouse looks like a good idea, it doesn't look that revolutionary if you compare it with a normal trackball. Two more buttons, a taller design and well the "two-handed mode", which I can't think of using too often. In most cases I hate to move one hand to the trackball and therefore away from the keyboard. So I can't think of too many situations where I will like to move *both* han

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

what on earth are you doing using 3 mice?

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

ah. too used to thinking in terms of doing stuff on my own. used to use two mice at work until i found out about synergy. but that really wont help multiple users.

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

There is a left handed version - costs a little more, but does exist.

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

just imagine if the power glove had ever taken off! reading your post made me picture someone sitting, arms spread wide with one of these mice in each hand and for some reason it struck me as absolutely hilarious.

Re:

[Anakron]

Here you go
http://www.safetype.com/index.asp [safetype.com]

the finger is the best position

[gbjbaanb]

I don't think its the posture of the hand (it has evolved to move around after all), but the grip you need on one tightening up the muscles and tendons whist doing so. Think how much RSI you'd get resting your hand on a table all day.

Still, this is an interesting alternative: for $25 you get an optical mouse that is attached to your finger [phoronix.com] so the laser is aligned with the finger, no grip required (though clicking the buttons with your thumb may not be as good as, say, tapping the end on the table).

That is nonsense.

[jotaeleemeese]

The relaxed natural position of the palm is parallel to your body, when you raise the arm bending 90degress, the palm remains parallel to your body, i.e. 90 degrees against the desk. If that is not the case you are either rotating unconsciously your wrist or you have a major anomaly in how your wrist is built....

Re:

[wondafucka]

Try this simple test: I have wrist pain within 2 minutes of using a "regular" mouse. I use the evoluent vertical mouse. My wrist pain has yet to come back.

According to your logic, the most ergonomic position is for my body to be lying in a heap on the floor, because that's what happens when I relax ALL of the muscles in my body. Bruised and effluent, because I accidentally released my sphincter too.

Actually, if I could use the computer while lying in a random heap on the floor, I think I would.