Lara Croft As The Final Girl 181
Clive Thompson, over at Wired, takes a look at the appeal of playing as Lara Croft ... and doesn't focus on her physical assets. From the article: "The Final Girl theory emerged in 1985, when Carol Clover -- a medievalist and feminist film critic -- was dared by a friend to see The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Back then, most feminist theorists loathed slasher films, and regarded them as classic examples of male misogyny. It wasn't hard to figure out why: Thousands of young men were trooping into theaters to cheer wildly as masked psychos hacked apart screaming young women. That really didn't look good. But as Clover sat in the theaters, she noticed something curious. Sure, the young men would laugh and cheer as the villain hunted down his female prey. But eventually the movie would whittle down the victims to one last terrified woman -- the Final Girl, as Clover called her. Suddenly, the young men in the audience would switch their allegiance -- and begin cheering just as madly for the Final Girl as she attacked and killed the psycho."
B. Stevens (Score:2)
May the best X win! (Score:5, Insightful)
The summary at least misses the point. The audience didn't "switch their allegiances"; in each conflict, they were cheering for the better (generally smarter) of the combatants. That's why those films seldom just have people being killed. Instead:
Then, at the end, we get to see someone who didn't exhibit these character flaws win.
It has little or nothing to do with sexism, and everything to do with cheering for people with survival traits.
--MarkusQ
Re:May the best X win! (Score:5, Insightful)
Survival traits? Sorry, not even that. And I could, for example, make a pretty good case for greed BEING a survial trait for you and yours.
No, such films are nothing more than grown up versions of the boogyman stories parents would tell their children, all about what happens to little kids who do bad things.
Re:May the best X win! (Score:3, Insightful)
I could, for example, make a pretty good case for greed BEING a survival trait for you and yours.
Greed (trying to acquire more resources than you could reasonably need) may have been a survival trait before we became so social. Now, it's anti-survival, but the urge is still there (which is probably the strongest argument for it once being pro-survival). In the kludgefest that is evolution, it hasn't been eliminated, but patched over with various greed-limiting mechanisms.
The question is, are we applyi
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
Um...are you sure you're clear on the definition of survival trait? Greed, in its most base sense today implies hoarding money and doing whatever you can to get more of it. This can potentially have a very large impact on how attractive that person is to members of the opposite sex (particularly a rich guy with women) and thus has a direct affect on h
Optimal, not maximal, amount of resorces (Score:2)
Greed, in its most base sense today implies hoarding money and doing whatever you can to get more of it. This can potentially have a very large impact on how attractive that person is to members of the opposite sex (particularly a rich guy with women) and thus has a direct affect on his chances of successfully reproducing.
The problem with this assumption is that the facts don't support it. The rich, on average, have fewer children, not more, as you assume. The reasons are complicated, but it basically
Re:Optimal, not maximal, amount of resorces (Score:2)
I would even make the leap to say that since greed and selfishness go hand in hand, that it directly affects the amount of risk a person is willing to shift to himself from someone else. A very greedy and s
Its all about the genes (Score:2)
However in terms of personal survival (rather than survival of the species)
Genes don't optimize the survival of the species. They don't even care about the survival of the individual. The one and only thing that they seek to optimize is the number of copies of themselves that make it into subsequent generations. Genes. Not individuals, not the species. So (from the gene's point of view) none of the other what-ifs matter if you aren't making babies or helping your close kin make babies. A gene for
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
The human mind has complex built-in cheating detection algorithms. Anger is a feeling that is directed towards percieved unfairness. It has a
Re:May the best X win! (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think the audience members really care who it is thats being hacked to bits... is it the bad boy or the naughty girl. Whatever, its somebody being hacked up. Its sensational, it stirs up all sorts of things, I think people often identify with the killer at first because well, the alternat
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
This simpler explanation fails because there aren't films of plain old violence without any plot whatsoever. If people really didn't care about plot, and wanted violence only, studios wouldn't waste money hiring actors and writing scripts, etc. They would just have violent scene after violent
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
However I think this says alot more about the interests and predilictions of the writters and producers than that of the audience. Sure, on some level the audience wants a plot, and the plot is generally designed to cause those reactions in the audiance.
However, I would submit that many of those elements could be dropped from the plot, and people would still go see the shitty movies.
-Steve
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
MOVIE survival. Greed gets you hacked to pieces by monsters, thus is NOT a survival trait.
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
2. We get to see how stupid they are
3. We get to see what happens to them for it
OH, so THAT's why the girls in "The Descent" were so stupid!
"Oh, no, I didn't bring the maps, because, guess what, this is a WHOLE NEW CAVE! So the rangers will be looking for us elsewhere while we're dying here trapped! Aren't I great?
Re:May the best X win! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
Tonight on slashdot: nature vs. nurture.
Sure, it would be useful to the species if the [typically bigger and stronger] males defended females instinctually. However, it's not necessary for that to be the mechanism. It could as easily be a universal societal influence. We are inundated with messages instructing us to behave in a certa
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
By putting the never hit girls bit in quotes you are implying that you're talking about dialogue. I am not [necessarily]. I'm talking about pervasive cultural messages that come through in every aspect of society from art to law. Actions, after all, speak far louder than words.
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
It still happens a lot more than I'd expect. I'd say our genetic nature cannot have a protect women feature. An impregnate women feature, sure. Sometimes I'm glad we don't have to live purely on our instincts.
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
First, males are generally physically stronger, so they have a better chanse of suceeding in fending off a violent attack.
Secondly, there's a bigger difference between "success" and "failure" for a male than for a female, evolutionary speaking.
A female doesn't need to be hugely "successful" to manage to find someone who will consent to making her pregnant. It's true that a better father for her children will improve the chanse of the children growing up, and the chanse that the children th
Re:May the best X win! (Score:2)
True Neutral? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:True Neutral? (Score:2)
Hmmm.... No. True Neutral is a stone-hearted jerk who doesn't care either way. If you cheer someone, then you obviously do care. If you cheer the killer at one moment and the victim the next, then you are obviously prone to chance your mind and therefore Chaotic. And since you don't seem to care whether good (the victim) or evil (the psycho) wins, you're obviously Neutral.
So the correct alignment is Chaotic Neutral.
Alternatively you c
This is why (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I have an MA in Literary and Rhetorical theory, and this kind of crap is why I left Literary study for Rhetoric and Digital Media when I went for the old Ph.D. The worst part is, I can probably cite most of the papers and books that this woman read, without even finding her references. It gets predictable. Want an alternate reading/viewing? Lara Croft is a modern female version of the "American Adam" archetype, as laid out by R.W.B. Lewis in 1955 in a book by the same name. She's "an individual standing alone, self-reliant and self-propelling, ready to confront whatever [awaits her] with the aid of [her] own unique and inherent resources" (p.5).
The point - and I do have one - is simple: the beauty of cultural criticism is that everyone can debate it endlessly, and everyone who's got the right sources can be right! Yay!
Re:This is why (Score:2)
Re:This is why (Score:2)
Wow. I *am* the male Lara Croft! :-)
But without the guns.
And without the boobs. Or the good looks. Or the legs. Or the mansion, money and international intrigue. Or the cool butler.
But other than that, I *am* the male Lara Croft!
Re:This is why (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This is why (Score:2)
But without the guns.
And without the boobs. Or the good looks. Or the legs. Or the mansion, money and international intrigue. Or the cool butler.
But at least you still have a great ass, right? :)
Re:This is why (Score:2)
This the fundamental the problem with the Existentialism: Truth is relative. Thus, there ends up being none. But standards, values, morality... truth, are the only fence between here and total anarchy.
Re:This is why (Score:2)
No seriously, I always wondered what people with such degrees (literacy and similar) do. Do you work just in research and education, or are there jobs in the industry (like newspaper or publishers)?
Re:This is why (Score:3, Funny)
No no no, the BEAUTY of it is that everyone can debate it endlessly and PRETEND that it's not about huge tits, when it's clearly the case that it is. That, my friend, is the beauty of cultural criticism.
Re:This is why (Score:2)
Re:This is why (Score:3, Informative)
Kill Bill (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Kill Bill (Score:2)
Bingo. She had a great motivation to be the hero of this story. I think it also helped that the movie didn't take itself too seriously. My girlfriend isn't too keen on super-violent movies, but she got a kick out of that one. I was surprised when we watched the first one and she wanted me to go get the second. I think it's exactly for the reason you mentioned.
Re:Who's Beatrix Kiddo? (Score:2)
The name is in Kill Bill 2, but it's also in Kill Bill 1 on the plane tickets if you look carefully.
Cheering? (Score:5, Insightful)
I call shenannigans on this... (Score:3, Interesting)
Lara is indeed a girl that every boy wants to be with, but not in a plutonic way; they want to control her, and have her be the object of their sexual fantasies.
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2, Insightful)
Lord knows I tried, but the camera angles are just so shitty. Seriously, I'm like "I know there's bats out there, but the camera is trapped behind some plants and all I can see is green shit, wtf mate?" ps: you mean 'platonic,' d00d. At least, I'm pretty sure you do: http://www.answers.com/plutonic&r=67 [answers.com]
Plutonic can also mean... (Score:2)
I guess that, by the second of these alternative definitions, there may well be NASA astronauts who would want Lara Croft plutonically.
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2, Interesting)
I experienced negative reactions to the Lara Croft character only from non-gamers looking at the cover artwork (esp. from my ex-wife). My instinct tells me that many of the criticisms are bas
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
It must have been your article, AC...nobody else would bother to defend it
Works for anyone (Score:2)
I don't think in either case I am playing because I want to "be" with either one. Instead I enjoy "being" them - powerful, smart beings kicking ass when needed. I mean do all the people playing Doom also want to "be" with the marine?
They don't have to be beautiful... (Score:2)
Re:They don't have to be beautiful... (Score:2)
One who isn't in dominatrix types.
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
That's exactly right.
Maybe it's been way too long since I've seen a slasher movie, but I remember the heroines
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
Its funny, when I read the actual article, thats kind of what I was expecting it to say...not this whole "Final Girl" BS. And to illustrate my point I'm going to make a whole bunch of sweeping generalizations.
The first generalization is that a large majority of gamers are geeks who are less than successful at girls. Part of that problem stems f
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
Only if you have a healthy attitude towards it.
Re:misproportionate? (Score:2)
Ah, one of those people who haven't experienced the joy that is is the E cup...
Re:I call shenannigans on this... (Score:2)
What are they cheering for? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe the men weren't cheering for the psycho or the woman, but for the violence itself .
Re:What are they cheering for? (Score:2)
Granted, it could still be some other factor, but I don't think it's just the violence. Maybe the kinds of people who like slasher movies are more vocal than the kinds of people who like action movies, or something like that.
Re:What are they cheering for? (Score:2)
Re:What are they cheering for? (Score:2)
Re:What are they cheering for? (Score:2)
Re:What are they cheering for? (Score:2)
Thank you. (Score:2)
If you wanted more women there, either encourage women to violence, or discourage men from violence with films that aren't about stereotypical gender traits.
Buffy Anybody? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a much closer analogue to Laura Croft, or other fictional kickass ladies like the Major in Ghost in the Shell.
Re:Buffy Anybody? (Score:2)
Re:Buffy Anybody? (Score:2)
Hmmm, and Shosa DOES have nice tits, just like Lara... You might be onto something.
I say bullsh*t (Score:5, Informative)
However, I really don't think of Lara as the "Final Girl". She's just a tough girl, period, if not a sex symbol. C'mon, we all know she was famous for her gravity-defying measures, but later was slimmed down to appeal more to the feminine public. I much less identify with her.
Now allow me to compare to another famous treasure hunter.
Indiana Jones
Family: A devout religious man (Junior?)
Studies: Ph. D. in Archeology
Job: Archeology teacher in Barnett College, NY ("X never ever marks the spot")
Reasons for treasure collecting: "It belongs in a museum!"
Favorite Gadgets: His leather whip and a Fedora with a very high sentimental value (belonged to the man who stole the Cross of Coronado).
Sex appeal: "And my mother's ears, but the rest belongs to you."
Most used quotes: "I hate Snakes!", and "Don't call me Junior!"
Lara Croft
Family: Extremely Rich family (can you compete with the Countess of Abbingdon?)
Studies: At home
Job: What job?
Reasons for treasure collecting: Add to her dad's collection, and, once in a while, save the world
Favorite Gadgets: Dual 9 mm Pistols
Sex appeal: Boing, boing, boing!
Most used quotes: ?
I'll take Indiana Jones, thank you.
Re:I say bullsh*t (Score:2)
Indiana's reason in "Temple of Doom" is that this starving village requested that he retrieve the sacred stones, so that they would have rain again, or something. In "Raiders of the Lost Ark," his pursuit of the Ark is for two reasons: 1, his buddy uncovered the trail, but was killed. 2, he had to keep it out of Nazi control.
It wasn't always "It belongs in a museum!" The interesting thing to note, however, is that Indiana never did it for his own personal gain.
Funny theory... (Score:2)
the jackals laud the victor (Score:2)
I'm shocked. No, no, not shocked that the audience sided with the obvious soon-to-be victor. That's predictable. I'm shocked that anyone places stock in a theory that suggests that the winner's traits matter in whether the audience sided with that character.
Its also called glory supporting... Just look at (Score:2)
UKism here but football is exactly the same. For anyone from the U.S. you might as well stop reading right now as i doubt this will make any sense.
"Does anyone know any manchester United supporters from Manchester?"
The fact is people will support whom ever ends up being glorious. In most of these films the girls are against impossible odds, so the men support the "evil henchman/manic killer/giant monster of death" and why?
Well lets get really "medievil"..... Cave men... they are fighting right?
Sometimes the winners suck (Score:2)
Examples: Die Hard, Broken Arrow, any Steven Seagal film...
Re:Its also called glory supporting... Just look a (Score:2)
Well actually, yes. Quite a lot, in fact. They seem mostly to live on the north side of the city, but they're there. It's just that they're enormously enormously enormously outnumbered by all the Man Utd fans elsewhere ...
Re:Its also called glory supporting... Just look a (Score:2)
Best example I can give is Yzak Jule from Gundam SEED. For the entire first series (except 2 out of 50 episodes), he did nothing but get the legs cut off his robot and scream loudly at people. In the end everyone loved him because he was just so intresting to watch rather than the hero who had now got aimbot and god mode in his mecha.
While at the same time I support a character who
She's the one for me. (Score:4, Interesting)
And so am I
The fire, baby. It'll burn us both
There's no place in this world for our kind of fire
My warrior woman. My valkyrie
You'll always be mine. Always. And never
Counter interpretation (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually Lara Croft doesn't really fit with the final girl theory. In Carol's definition you can't start with the *final* girl. She goes through a metamorphosis and becomes more masculine as she survives more of the horror.
Interesting points about the final girl theory:
The theory is flawed (all failings acknowledged by Carol Clover, she doesn't assert that this theory is anything grand or definite) in that it assumes that only adolescent males enjoy horror movies. The theory is completely broken if you agree that any women enjoy horror movies.
The theory itself says that the adolescent boys can identify with the final girl without themselves feeling threatened by the killer (who is hunting women), but who demonstrates the traits of a stereotypical adolescent male masculine fantasy (surviving against all odds, strong, capable, etc.). The theory is that this is a way for young men to indirectly experience homo-erotic fantasies. The women are characteristically running from phallic, penetrating objects such as knives and other stabbing weapons. Yet the final girl is also an erotic object herself. She usually has an asexual name (like Sam) and carries a phallic object like a torch, stick, etc.
Yes, the world of literary theory is stranger than you know. o_O
Avert your eyes! (Score:5, Funny)
Suddenly, the young men in the audience would switch their allegiance -- and begin cheering just as madly for the Final Girl as she attacked and killed the psycho.
Dude, spoiler alert!
Over analysing things... (Score:2)
Re:Over analysing things... (Score:2)
Not exactly true, but there are very few humans to kill in Tombraider I, indeed. Although Lara was not too squeamish to pop a cap in the heads of several of Natla's goons, while she could have easily incapacitated them by other means. I thought that actually she was too needlessly violent at certain moments. But, yeah, neat game, sucky sequels (partially because of all the human opponents in the sequel
Lara Chooses Danger (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Croft [wikipedia.org]
Angelina Jolie turned the genre around (Score:4, Insightful)
It speaks well of Jolie as an actress that she was able to bring off the role without it being a joke.
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2, Funny)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:1)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
See my post here and learn what feminism actually is [slashdot.org] before you continue to sound like a troglodyte
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
for a list of feminist literature you would have to talk to my fiancee who is finishing off her double degree in women's studies and political science.
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a problem that is not unique to feminism. All political and social movements are vulnerable to the
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
*usually
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
I'd only be sexist if it didn't cringe when I see a woman hit a man. Any violence not in self defense, or the defense of another, is abhorrent
Do you support the 'White Ribbon Campaign' held on the anniversary of the 'Montreal Massacre'? You're sexist.
Not familiar with the "White Ribbon Campaign"
Do you see no problem in the way men are shown as idiots and women as smart and organised in advertisements? You're sexist.
Actually I do have a problem
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
I just looked up what this is.
The Montreal Massacre
For 45 minutes on Dec. 6, 1989 an enraged gunman roamed the corridors of Montreal's École Polytechnique and killed 14 women. Marc Lepine, 25, separated the men from the women and before opening fire on the classroom of female engineering students he screamed, "I hate feminists." Almost immediately, the Montreal Massacre became a galvanizing mom
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2, Insightful)
I think this relates to the article about a lack of new computer science students: an unacknowledged reason is that geeks don't reproduce very often.
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:4, Insightful)
All groups extremists drag that groups name through the mud - misogynistic punks just like to forget that
Christian extremists drag the name of Christianity through the mud
Muslim extremists drag the name of Islam through the mud
Environmentalism extremists drag the name of Environmentalism through the mud
Animal Rights extremists drag the name of Animal Rights through the mud
Extremist feminists drag the name of Feminism through the mud
do I really need to go on or are you going to wise up and learn that the fundamental tenents of feminism are: equality of the sexes, the right to choose their roles for both sexes, respect between the sexes.
These extremists vary from that. There are whacko feminists who think all sex is rape, while I know several feminists who think porn awesome*: i'm marrying one of them and the other is going the PRODUCE porn. There are whacko feminists who really are "man haters" but they are not the majority by a long shot.
So GROW UP and stop trying to pretend that the minority is the majority: feminism is about equality - not all these things that Rush Limbaugh falsely attributes to it because of some it's more extreme members.
*except like.. snuff porn, and bukakke
(PS: I'm a guy and a *gasp* feminist because I believe in the equality of the sexes!)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
I wonder, though, what compelled you (and others) to respond so vigorously to what amounted to a "throwaway" post that really didn't say anything. My speculation would be that you're one of those "extremists," at least in the sense that your post seems like an overreaction...
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
My very angry reactio
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:5, Insightful)
There are several problems with feminism. One of them is the name. The name doesn't say "equality", it's all about women. Another one is the baggage. There've been so many radical feminists that have been embraced by the movement that there's an instant stigma attached to being a "feminist".
Personally, I don't instantly shut down when I encounter someone describing themselves as a feminist, but I have to admit that I'm slightly less likely to pay attention, because of all the ridiculous shit that's carried the feminist banner. I'm a humanist, or maybe an equalist?, and I do believe that all people should be considered equal until they prove that they aren't.
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
I fully agree with that statement and have said smiliar in the past.
Another one is the baggage. There've been so many radical feminists that have been embraced by the movement that there's an instant stigma attached to being a "feminist".
Yes there is baggage, I wouldn't really say "embraced" so much as though - it's just a movement that is very tolerant of variances in opinion and very much "take what you want from what the perso
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:3, Insightful)
People are deeply self-centered, often don't understand others, or even themselves, and don't reflect upon the meaning of their actions. Society has been owned and run by men, and women have been second class citizens. When you're self-centered you just don't know and don't think about how your actions, such as running society, affects others, such as women. It's every little thing from public restrooms to drug trials, not always obviou
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Just out of curiosity, since there are technically more women in the world than men... What's YOUR definition of minority?
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Not all women are feminists (believe in gender equality), of those women who are feminists only a [small] minority of them are extremists "man haters".
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
there was some chick out there who called herself "The Androgynous Bitch"... and boy was she ever
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:3, Insightful)
"Women who challenge patriarchal structuers, whether compulsory pregnancy, harassment on the job, or nuclear war, will be made to pay." (Barstow, Witchcraze: A New History of the European Witch)... and this crap attempts to pass itself as academic history.
Let me restructure this sentance in a language you will understand
if ($person->isWoman() && $person->challenges(array("patria
Re:"Medievalist and Feminist Film Critic" (Score:2)
Extremists have to be judged, not ignored. This is the lesson of the 20th century dictator and other assorted 20th century crazies.