VOIP Cell Phones Coming Soon 138
prostoalex writes "Associated Press reports on the latest cell phones with WiFi support demoed at this year's CTIA Wireless 2006 conference. New models fall back to WiFi hotspot when the user is at home, at work, or cellular signal gets too weak. Biggest surprise? The cell phone conversation is not dropped when the switch between cellular network and WiFi hotspot takes place."
Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:5, Insightful)
But, heck, what do I know? I still think that that coyote is gonna get that RoadRunner some day.
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
NASA tapping WIFI / VOIP for voice? (Score:3, Interesting)
all of this raises an interesting question. Is the NSA currently tapping / sniffing the Interenet for voice? That is, tapping / sniffing VOIP?
And if not, will this hasten the day when NASA does so? I can hear it now. "All of these people are now connected end to end via WIFI and VOIP through their cell phones. We must be able to tap / sniff those conversations.
Re:NASA tapping WIFI / VOIP for voice? (Score:1)
According to the EFF [eff.org]:
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:5, Informative)
From what the article said, it does prefer wifi over cell towers.
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:2)
Sure, but if the phone can switch from wifi to cellular and back again without dropping your call, what this really means is that you're still communicating with your provider (using VoIP) and so you're still getting charged for minutes. Of course it is probably possible to use your own provider like vonage or something similar with these types of phones, but you would not be able to seemlessly switch from one to the other (vonage on wifi t
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:2, Interesting)
The GP seemed to think that minutes from the cell provider would be cheap or free over Wifi. This is unlikely and not indicated in the article.
Of course, you would have to buy your own phone for Wifi VoIP. At the moment they're like cell phones from 1995 and cost $200-500.
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
You clearly haven't been living in a capitalist country for long if you think that companies give a damn about what the consumer wants.
-Grey [wellingtongrey.net]
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:5, Funny)
Whereas in a communist country they certainly do.
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
Do you speak from firsthand experience or are you just pulling stuff from your ass?
I need to Ass you a question (Score:1, Funny)
Do I need a special cable to "pull" from it as you say?
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:2)
For your information, yes, even two days ago I was talking to a girl who ran away from a communist regime and discussing the relative advantages/disadvantages of living in either of the opposing systems. And that's just anecdotal... I might quote many more *actual people* I have talked to
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:2)
It already prefers wifi over cellular (Score:2, Informative)
How do I know, besides reading the article? I develop for cutting edge cell phones and PDA's for a living.
Re:It already prefers wifi over cellular (Score:1, Interesting)
I agree that the wording could be better
Indeed, the wording is confusing. Usually fall back means "use a lesser alternative when the preferred alternative is not available".
In this context, "preferred" means "cheaper", and the system should "fall back" to cell only if a trusted wifi is not available, not the other way round.
Or, alternatively: "spring forward to WiFi hotspot when the user is at home, at work". Ha!
Re:It already prefers wifi over cellular (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It already prefers wifi over cellular (Score:2)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
But then that'd be pretty bad for the cellular service providers no. Think of it this way: customers need an incentive to thrash their old cells and buy new ones, and cool new features is that incentive most of the time.
Celllular service providers need a really good incentive not to.. you know.. ensure something 'appens with the phone makers' management, that'd be a shame, rig
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:1)
Counting minutes? Seriously? Let it go already...
You want your customer to use the product so much that they can't imagine living without it; not to instinctively try to avoid using it whenever possible due to (effectively) micropayments.
Re:Shouldn't it be reverse? (Score:2)
Sure, if you're a cell provider willing to sacrifice profits to increase convenience and value for the user, then yes... that makes perfect sense!
Phone number (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Phone number (Score:3, Insightful)
In much the same way that the cell towers check to see if your phone is still within range when you're not using it. This is the reason your phone sets off your speakers or makes your monitor twitch randomly
So the system sends out a signal to find the phone based on its last known location. Or the phone checks in with the system every few minutes to give an update on how to reach it.
Doesn't sound like much of a stretch
Re:Phone number (Score:5, Interesting)
The upside is that many of them are owned by the same people, eg. Cingular is owned by ATT & BellSouth. Verizon is, well, Verizon.
Although it's mentioned in the article that "internet minutes" may be cheaper that "cell tower" minutes because wifi radio spectrum and the internet are cheaper than running cell towers.
But the problem comes when you're not at home. Pop down to the coffee shop and start talking on your cell phone using the wifi hotspot. You pay the cell company less... but who pays the internet bill for your cell traffic?
Sounds like a new level of peering agreement wars... Yay.
Re:Phone number (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Phone number (Score:1)
The cellular connection would only be dropped if the VoIP connection is verified in-call That way if you're outside and still connected to the L
Re:Phone number (Score:2)
FireFury03 already gave a more clear explanation of what I was trying to say.
Re:Phone number (Score:5, Interesting)
In much the same way that the cell towers check to see if your phone is still within range when you're not using it. This is the reason your phone sets off your speakers or makes your monitor twitch randomly
Actually, GSM phones don't get polled very frequently at all (usually every few hours ISTR). But the phone listens to the base station and if it goes out of range of one and into range of the other it will transmit to inform the network that it's moved. If the phone outright goes out of range then the first the network usually knows about it is when it tries to contact the phone (e.g. to place a call or send an SMS) and doesn't get a response. Which is why there is sometimes a few seconds of silence after dialling an out-of-coverage cellphone before it drops you through to voicemail - it's trying to contact the phone in it's last known cell and when that times out you get forwarded to voicemail.
Polling the phone regularly has the disadvantage that the phone has to transmit acks regularly too and transmitting eats the batteries. Far better for the phone to just listen and only transmit to tell the network that it's moved.
I imagine that the way this system will work is to record both a "last known" cell and a "last known" IP address. The last known IP will be tried first and if it fails then the last known cell will be tried.
I'm not sure how they will bill for the seamless handoff stuff though - maybe the whole thing will be charged at cellular rates, in which case there doesn't seem to be a lot of advantage to the end user.
Re:Phone number (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Phone number (Score:1)
And I guess that a lot people will be willing to pay for not having to figure out Skype/Asterisk/whatever on their mobile and telling friends, relatives and business associates which number to call at what times.
Re:Phone number (Score:1, Interesting)
Given the amount of industry push behind IMS and SIP, I'd be very suprised if the VoIP service in this article was not deployed in this manner. Essentially the IMS should allow a phone to register itself with the telco's network over either the cellular network or the local
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The good news is... (Score:3, Insightful)
The UMA data network simply allows the carrier turn any WiFi access point into an additional cell tower on their network. The advantage for the consumer, discounted minutes at home. The advantage for the carrier fewer expensive cell towers to cover the same number of people.
In many demographics 40% of people's cellphone calls are made from home. It will be a t
Uh-Huh (Score:2, Funny)
Don't make me laugh. Mobile carriers still can't even get this right with GSM!
"That's good," he said. "This is seamless handover. The voice didn't drop. Nothing bad happened."
Anyone else get the impression Nokia Man sounded just as shocked as I am?
[I'm just having a bit of fun - Don't take this post seriously!]
Re:Uh-Huh (Score:2)
Seamless handover from cell to wifi is non-trivial and will require that the telco provide the skype-like service to deal with the call and the handover. This means that you're still going to ge
Re:Uh-Huh (Score:2)
Why would you get charged big-time? A few (hundred) regional servers to make latency as low as possible is going to cost a hell of a lot less than thousands of cell towers.
The seamless handoff doesn't seem that complicated. When you walk into an area with WiFi, the phone contacts the provider's servers, and voice data starts going over a different route. Keep a minimal connection to the cell network so that you can instantly start using it again. I'm not sure how GSM works, but with CDMA, it only uses the
Re:Uh-Huh (Score:2)
My post was mostly joking, VF's cell handoff is a lot better than it used to be a couple of years ago. Most problems also were nothing to do with the GSM protocol and more to do with coverage (at least according to what people have told me, I don't claim to be authoritive on this!)
As for your FTP, it's interesting. I work with IP/switched networks for my job, I'm not 100% sure how that should work. I'd think your ma
Re:Uh-Huh (Score:2)
Just what we need... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just what we need... (Score:5, Informative)
Here in Austria we may have fewer ISPs but the number of available packages dwarfs what is available in the US... For example my mum has a package with medium bandwidth but very low transfer volume, this gives her a nice experience on the internet (and the computer updates actually get done) for the nearly the same price as dial up. I have a high bandwidth with a "Fair Use" transfer volume that is un-metered during off hours, and my little brother has the high bandwidth unlimited transfer volume package for his attempt to collect all the porn in the known universe.
It's not the paying for transfer volume that's bad... it's the unethical business practices of American businesses that's bad.
Re:Just what we need... (Score:2)
Until you try to actually use the underlying peer to peer architecture and not do what the ISP expect you to do (web surfing and email).
Re:Just what we need... (Score:2)
Re:Just what we need... (Score:2)
Re:Just what we need... (Score:2)
How long before the entire communications framework, wire and radio, become a public service just like water and electricity? Something that you're granted just for paying you taxes. How long before we can get full convergence of all services, data and voice, and voice traffic become so cheap that it will cost more to charge for the service than to actually prov
Here in Japan (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Here in Japan (Score:2)
Don't like it? Move to Monaco!
Re:Here in New York! New York! (Score:2)
New York City [wikipedia.org], however has 8,168,338 people crammed into 785.6km^2 which would slot it in second place (against countries) at 10,292 persons per square km.
So although New York only has about 2/3 the density, it has 250 times the total population. If you're looking for a customer base for some new tech I'd take my odds in New York (despite how rich Monaco is...)
Oh, an
Re:Here in New York! New York! (Score:2)
Japan is about the size of Texas and New Mexico combined, or about one tenth the size of the continental US. Since the US is also less densely populated than Japan and also has more total population (about double), even if you want to maximize the coverage by population density you still hav
Dual mode is the easy bit (Score:3, Interesting)
Ericsson demoed some Bluetooth handsets that could do clean handover a long while back. THese would use BT to BT for short distance and could then switch to BT--POTS and finally cell. I don't think this was ever commercialised.
Re:Here in Japan (Score:1)
Here's the technical story behind all of this (Score:3, Informative)
UMA is the technology that supports WiFi cellular voice. A processing unit (known as a UNC) must be added to the cellular operator's network. The UNC bridges the WiFi-carried voice into the cellular network.
Money (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, we mustn't let new technology get in the way of existing revenue streams.
-Grey [wellingtongrey.net]
Re:Money (Score:1)
I still don't understand why these companies fight so hard against things that would actually bring them more money and happier customers by simply adapting.
I'm looking forward to a big surprise (Score:2, Interesting)
British Telecom already sells wireless VOIP cells (Score:5, Interesting)
Most people think the calls route over the normal analogue voice line, but the giveaway that it is VOIP is on this page [bt.com] where they state "can make up to three simultaneous calls", obviously this is must therefore be routed over the ADSL side rather than the voice side.
Re:British Telecom already sells wireless VOIP cel (Score:5, Informative)
Re:British Telecom already sells wireless VOIP cel (Score:1)
Biggest Suprise? (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking as ex tech-support for an VOIP service that will remain anonymous, allow me to say that half the time American VOIP service over anything except fiber-optic can't manage to maintain a phone call period. =p
I'm not sure I believe the Japanese firms are really doing it any better, but they do have a better infrastructure set up, so maybe it does work halfway decently.
It might help if the half of America that jumped on VOIP because it was cheap would at least update the rest of their technology along with it. No matter how good the connection your ISP is giving you is, if you're still using a modem and router that would manage higher data transmission rates if converted to carrier pigeon roosts, your overall experience will be lousy.
And wiring. Ma Bell laid copper wire may be good enough for the telecomms to still wring a profit out of, but it's probably not helping your connection any. Nor are the cords that have been hidden behind your desk getting chewed by cats for the last ten years.
Also, interference from large stacks of electronics piled on your desk, certain brands of laptop and ginormous desktop monitors, halogen lights, and having metals like a fridge, or say, wall full of plumbing between your wireless router and where-ever you're trying to use equipment.
Allright, I'm going to shut up now. Suffice to say, I could go on for two more pages at least.
It's a good technology with 'a lot of potential', but as for something for widespread daily use? That marriage of consumer and product will be about as good as the one to the girl with the 'nice personality'. If they were lying about the personality. =p
And then there's cell phones. Never did the tech support for those, but I saw it.
"Your cell phone isn't working? Hmmm, let me check a few things."
*Anonymous network down across the entire southwest*
"Well, it might be a network problem, we'll get you back up as soon as possible. What? No, only a few people affected I'm sure."
Ah, the lies, the horrible, horrible lies.....
*cough* Sorry, my therapist said I was over it....
*He lied too!!!!*
Re:Biggest Suprise? (Score:1)
Perhaps this guy can use it (Score:5, Interesting)
A guy in Malaysia got hit with a 281 trillion dollar bill:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12247590/ [msn.com]
And believe it or not, the phone company hasn't fessed up to an error as of yet and is threatening full criminal charges for non-payment.
What's the interest on a 281 trillion dollar loan anyway? I think only the US Treasury could tabulate it.
Re:Perhaps this guy can use it (Score:2)
Thats a good one
It wasn't clear whether the bill was a mistake, or if Yahaya's father's phone line was used illegally after his death.How? by calling the magellanic clouds?
My wife is Malaysian, and I know how hard it can be to deal with the bureaucracy there.
Re:Perhaps this guy can use it (Score:1)
Re:Perhaps this guy can use it (Score:2)
Telcos Here Not Much Friendlier (Score:2)
Last I heard they were still try
Amazing Choice of Language and rising DSL Pricing. (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned real wi-fi phones which don't even let your carrier know how many wi-fi minutes you are using can't come soon enough. I hate the high prices, ridiculous options and general blood sucking (prices for ringtones) and can't wait till they are the ones begging the technology companies to include support for their off wi-fi network you use when you leave the city or have at least started offering wi-fi type service in cities.
Ultimately of course the upshot of all of this is that we will be paying more for DSL/landline phones as well as for remote cell phone service. In both the landline phone market and the cell phone market massive fixed costs are amortized over a huge number of phone calls. The fixed line phone calls then in effect subsidize DSL service (the phone companies make money on it but wouldn't if they had to do all the maintence/set up the phone lines just for DSL). Similarly all the cellphone calls made in big cities subsidize building cell phone towers in more rural locations. As the distinction between different sorts of data transmission inevitably disappears the price per unit of reasonably low latency Kb must equalize. I mean it really is absurd that it is cheaper to use your phone line for DSL and utilize Skype than it is to call on a real phone. This will force the price of DSL up as it becomes less subsidized by phone calls and the existance of Wi-Fi phones will remove the ability of the cell companies to subsidize the less used more rural towers (unless of course they are just doing things in a really inefficent fashion compared to google/earthlink in SF)
At least this is what happens if the DSL prices aren't constrained by local laws, in which case we will just see more tricks trying to offer tiered access charging for cell phone use (instead of by Mb) or other stupid money generating tricks.
Ummmm.... (Score:3, Interesting)
That's what you pay for and it's why all the internet-only VIOP services are free, because they don't connect you into the PSTN.
Re:Ummmm.... (Score:2)
That's only true because the phone companies (fixed and cell) are discouraging VOIP from the market through FUD. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a numbers game; where sufficient numbers adopt a particular VOIP standard, the balance will fall in VOIP's favour. The fact that that balance has not yet tipped doesn't indicate that the old PSTN system is somehow a mandatory st
Re:Ummmm.... (Score:2)
I just meant a situation where sprint can't anal
It's aimed at mobile phone companies (Score:5, Insightful)
Notice that the "seamless transition" from of having your mobile communicating over the mobile network to having it use the WiFi network requires a server on the mobile network to support it.
The point here is that many mobile companies also own WiFi hotspot networks. With this kind of phone available they will be able to re-use those networks for mobile coverage, thus freeing more slots on the mobile network (and/or requiring less towers). Commercial WiFi hotspots are typically installed in areas with many potential users around (airports, train-stations, city centers) which are also the areas more congested in terms of mobile calls traffic, thus the potential for savings are very big. If they can get people to also use their own private WiFi hotspots at some, even beter for them.
Maybe some savings will be passed on to the consumers or maybe not. As always, companies try to make as much money as possible, thus they will only pass the savings on to consumers (via reduced prices) if:
a) They still make more money out of it. So for example, expect cheaper (but not free) "home" minutes if you use your own personal WiFi hotspot.
b) They are being squezed by other technologies and need to reduce prices in order to stay competitive.
Hopefully the technology will be implemented in such a way that it might be possible to use it WITHOUT support from the side of the mobile network operator. Quite possibly this first generation won't support it out-of-the-box. Don't expect quite a seamless transition of calls between networks though.
Re:It's aimed at mobile phone companies (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:1)
Great... (Score:3, Funny)
Surprise, surprise (Score:2, Interesting)
That'd be the only surprize, since there are phones that use wifi for walkie talkie emulation for some time now.
One could really wonder how is this supposed to work at all, after all the whining from big telcos, how VOIP support needs special quality of service (QoS)to ensure low latency, no skipping, mangling etc. to work.
But then again who believes telcos anyway.
Re:Surprise, surprise (Score:1)
Re:Surprise, surprise (Score:2, Interesting)
VOIP capable handsets are already common (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.europe.nokia.com/nokia/0,6771,77854,00. html [nokia.com] -phone
http://www.my-xda.com/comp.html [my-xda.com] -more phones.
http://www.barablu.com/ [barablu.com] -voip software.
http://www.skype.com/download/skype/mobile/ [skype.com] -more voip software
Netgear Wi-Fi Skype phone? (Score:1)
Re:Netgear Wi-Fi Skype phone? (Score:1)
Re:Netgear Wi-Fi Skype phone? (Score:2)
Re:Netgear Wi-Fi Skype phone? (Score:2)
Too soon (Score:1)
Cell Phone Radiation? (Score:1)
Less microwaves to the head is always a good thing...
Boy I'd love this (Score:1)
Re:Boy I'd love this (Score:2)
Mind you, I know the feeling - I can be making a call sat down on my sofa at home and I move my head 2 inches and I've lost the signal.
Three unreliable technologies, together at last (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty skeptical as to how well this will work.
"There is an avialable wireless network..." (Score:1)
Now my cell-phone will have this also, only I know that 'Can you hear me now' doesn't want me to switch off their network willingly, so can I expect to be bombarded with a bunch of barely audible dings alerting me to the existence of a number of wireless networks that might authenticate me or not? I wonder what happens to my call then.
"But U.S.
Calls wont drop with a cell/WiFi transition? (Score:4, Interesting)
That means that the phone will keep a VoIP session opened with the cell phone providers switch. The cell phone provider can continue to bill you insane per minute rates while you ride on someone elses network. Sounds like a great deal for the cell phone providers. As a VoIP provider I wonder if I can get a cell phone to connect back to me so I don't have to build network either.
Neutral Ground to Dust (Score:2)
Sprint, AT&T and the other telcos won't be any different. And
VOIP (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Biggest surprise? (Score:2)
Errr... why is this a surprise? I would have thought this feature would have been one of the first requirements in the spec. In fact what consumer would seriously consider a phone that would drop a call mid converstaion? Frankly, if that's the biggest surprise, I'm not expecting much.
Re:Biggest surprise? (Score:2)
The Pricing Problem...how to squeeze the customer? (Score:2)
"But analysts said Cingular is concerned that offering Wi-Fi calls inside a home could hurt its parent companies' landline businesses.
Plus, there's the question of how to charge customers, who might expect free calls.
"Pricing is always an issue," said Cingular spokesman Ritch Blasi. "Who's network are you going to be using, and do you share minutes?
Yea
handover (Score:2)
It's called dividing up the customers (Score:2, Insightful)
It is, after all, just data going from point A to point B (and coming back). I don't know the current numbers but, back in the 90's, voice only consumed a few percent of the total of the transferred data.
The network should be good enough to get the d