IE Holes Not Microsoft's Fault, Says Bill 1035
thparker writes "As part of the Media Center release discussed previously, Bill Gates had an interview with USA Today. Best quote: 'Q: Speaking of security, Internet Explorer has had well-publicized holes... Gates: Understand those are cases where you are downloading third-party software.' Well now we know -- these problems have all been our own fault." Any counterexamples?
No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Hrmmmm. Downloading third party software on my Macintosh does not seem to get me into trouble in the same manner as it does on Windows........Why is that Mr. Gates? Furthermore, I have performed the experiment: Install Windows on a computer and hook it up to the Internet. Leave it hooked up without downloading one bit of software from anywhere! and the machine will be compromised. Why is that Mr. Gates?
Moving along: Q: Might you add anti-virus/spyware protection in Windows? Gates: It's not a thing you build in. You have to offer a service......Why is that Mr. Gates? I would have thought that you would offer a secure environment as part of your product out of the box? What does that tell us about the quality of your products? After all, does not my automobile come with airbags and antilock brakes and skid control and all wheel drive? Under your logic, those features would only work if I paid a monthly premium.
You know, I kept waiting for something better to happen with Windows, but I have work to do and things to create, so I'll stick with OS X and my Macintosh. Thanks anyway.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Impossible! You must be lying!
(Sorry, I realize this mihgt not be defensible, but I accidently checked the "Always Trust Microsoft" box during an install a few years ago. If only I could turn back time.)
Try Microsoft? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Gates: It's not a thing you build in.
Us: But a browser is a thing you can build in
Different Alexa (Score:5, Informative)
So in a sense it's harmless; it's just a built-in web search. But it's generally considered to be spyware because of Alexa's reputation.
It probably got installed when you did the Internet Explorer update. I think you get it out-of-the-box when you install XP.
More information here: http://www.imilly.com/alexa.htm [imilly.com]
Check the history of the seatbelt in the car (Score:5, Interesting)
They tried everything to stop people from doing safety studies and stopping laws making safety devices mandatory. It did not fit their marketing image to have to put safety features in.
Sounds very similar eh? Gates blames insecurity on bad users. The car industry blamed it on bad drivers (this fits marketing as noone thinks of themselves as a bad driver).
Until enough studies came out showing how dangerous cars were (things like the steering column being a spear aimed at your chest) and the public started to get aware and goverment was starting to take action ONLY then and very slowly did the car industry do something. That still won't do anything until laws enforce the use of seatbelts and even then you will have idiots claiming using seatbelts is unsafe. Same as I have met person (not heard about, actually talked to myself) who didn't use anti-virus software because it was reading their files.
So don't hold your breath waiting for MS to move on its own. SP2 was already a huge achievement. Anything more will only come after a long long struggle.
Or a very short one if you install the flippered OS. Or the horned one if your into necrophilia. Then again, that is like driving a volvo. Not cool. Sure your kids might survive an accident but who cares about that eh?
Re:Check the history of the seatbelt in the car (Score:5, Funny)
That's kind of funny when you consider that most XP crashes are because of bad drivers too (or misbehaving malware).
--Dan
Re:Check the history of the seatbelt in the car (Score:5, Insightful)
Even though you acknowledge the overall statistics, you then rely on one person's experiences for choosing not to wear a seatbelt in many circumstances to overrule the statistics.
To see why this is crazy, imagine asking a 1000 people all across the country to toss (fair and balanced) coins. Ask the 500 or so people who get heads to toss again. Ask the 250 or so people who get heads that time to toss again. And so on, through 125, 62, 31, 15, 7, 3, till you're left with 1 person. Now this 1 person has tossed a coin 10 times and it's come up heads every time! [1]
Now if you didn't know much about coin tossing, except a statistic that said they come up tails about 50% of the time, and you only knew that one person, should you believe her if she says "Well, the statistics say tails comes up 50% of the time, but from what I've seen, it's heads all the way!"?
Unless you know of a broad survery of many accident investigators who detect a tendancy for low-speed or low-traffic density accident injuries to be increased in either number or severity because of seat belts, then you must take what you're hearing with a hefty grain of salt, even if what they are saying is 100% true[2]. (By the way, I fail to see the difference in between accidently wrapping oneself around a telephone pole on a busy road vs. a quiet road.)
Don't forget there's an obvious potentail for observer's bias here too: you're not seeing his formal reports, but just the stories he's choosing to share with you in an environment which encourages entertaining conversation, not neccessarily statistically accurate conversation.
In the absence of such of survey, perhaps the best thing is to consider the failure mode you're really concerened about: it's not that wearing a seat belt is bad during the accident, but that you may be trapped afterwards. Put a box cutter or similar within reach, say in the door drawer. If you can't operate the cutter because of unconsciousness or severe injury, well, in your condition, you weren't getting of that car anyway
[1] There's actually a well known stock-market scam [investorhome.com] which operates in very much this fashion.
[2] The furor over silicone breast implants is another good example: a lot of women honestly reported problems after breast implants, but when all was said and done [emedicine.com], their problems were coincidental.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone wants MS to remove things like CD-burning, Media Player, IE etc because it is anti-competitive and now you WANT THEM to build MORE APPS IN??
Also, motor companies do NOT make Airbags, ABS and skid control... they are usually made by third party companies (Bosch for example). So are you suggesting that Windows comes bundled with Norton Antivirus/Firewall, that you shouldnt get a choice, and that we should add another $50 to the cost? Sounds anti-competitive to me. Sounds like you're another
Ones not made by Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
So the thing the users keep doing wrong is hook it up to the internet.
Re:Ones not made by Microsoft (Score:5, Funny)
Wake up America! They're controlling our mind through the internets!!! It's almost as bad as reefer madness!!!! Run for your lives!!!!
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently the upcoming version of Windows will have enhanced official viruses too, that do even less but will need significantly more powerful hardware to run.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Interesting)
A pristine WinXP box will be compromised in 20 minutes (on average).
I'm still waiting for my unfirewalled 'nix box to be rooted
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
"I'm still waiting for my unfirewalled 'nix box to be rooted ;)"
Oh, it won't be rooted... again. I've tightened things up nicely, now.
P.S. Thanks for the porn!
Re:No thanks (Score:4, Funny)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
But, maybe SP2 takes it back out to 20mins.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows instead has many "default" services that you can't turn off.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether things would be reversed along with the marketshare, it's impossible to say. But there's really no way anyone can do it worse than what microsoft is doing.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Take your best shot, kiddie!
Re:How does this happen? (Score:5, Interesting)
If the user isn't using IE and isn't running a server (such as httpd), then it's quite unlikely that anything bad will happen. Unless someone specifically targets the machine and scans for all activated services, etc, and launches an attack against an un-patched vulnerability.
I would be brave enough to state that a Win2k / WinXP / Win2003 is just as secure as UNIX / FreeBSD / OSX, if: -
No, Windows is not just as secure. The point is that there are lots of script kiddies constantly scanning the range of ports used for cable and dsl networked computers. Once they get a response, they scan all the ports on that IP looking for open/vulnerable services. They target Windows because the vast majority of computers on the Internet are running Windows. Look at all the posts in this thread. You can find numerous accounts where Windows computers were infected within minutes of being connected to the Internet.
It's possible that Linux/Unix would be far less secure if it received as much attention from the hacker community, but there are some good arguments that it wouldn't be. Linux/Unix has been a part of the Internet since it was first conceived and the programmers that have worked on Linux and UNIX have generally been more aware of networking and security issues.
Linux has a much more modular design than Windows. Windows has been tightly integrated on the basis of Marketing and Legal rather than Engineering decisions. I doubt that Windows will ever be secure without substantial redesign of the entire OS. Unless Microsoft is successful at throwing up legal roadblocks, Linux is going to continue to outstrip Windows in security, reliability, and eventually usability.
Re:How does this happen? (Score:5, Informative)
Whoever told you that didn't know what they were talking about. Most users create admin accounts for themselves (or use the one admin account created) because they can't be bothered to go root to install something.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
May have downloaded spyware...
And they are not compromised? Spyware is often as bad or worse than most viruses. Most spyware sits in the background degrading your systems performance recording things that you do, from where you visit to what you type. Spyware is invaluable to crime. If you want to steal identities, accounts, etc., spyware is an invaluable tool.
I wonder who they use for a service provider, and what kind of connection they have. Almost 100% of the Windows machines I have seen hooked up (insightBB, comcast, onenet, SBC, and other smaller companies) on everything from cable to dsl to dial-up have been infected within hours at the most(the slower and more sporadic the connection, the longer the infections took.) It may be that they are being protected by their service provider or some dumb luck combination. I seriously doubt they have some special version of windows that does not have the compromises that all other versions have.
Spyware is becoming one with viruses. The difference is that most script kiddie "virus writers" want you to know they own your box (or defaced it/erased it), whereas most criminal intent wants you to know nothing at all. Their fruits of labor will not be realized if you take actions based on their intrusions. After all, if you change your card/account number or passwords, how can they use it?
Proper spyware (with criminal intent) would install itself collect some information and then delete itself, leaving no trace or suspicion behind. By doing this, they get information and leave no clues to tip off the victim. Once the cards are used, the account tapped, or whatever else they intend to do (identity theft for instance), they no longer need your system anyway, and the damage done is to late to prevent. Try telling companies that you are no the one that ruined your credit rating.
InnerWeb
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
All those viruses, dialers and worms comming in via email, malicious websites and so on, ARE Third party software indeed.
Or is WinXP now delivered with preinstalles Melissa-Virus?
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, they're sure not hardware...
They are peices of bad code
Bad or not, if its code, its software, and it is 3rd party.
Personally, I would have modded the grandparent "Funny" if anything. Its the same thing I thought. Technically, it is all 3rd party software that's being downloaded...
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Installation Instructions
1. Login as root
...
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Interesting)
For what it's worth, Ubuntu actually disables the root account by default so you have to sudo everything.
(I'm sure other distros do that too, but Ubuntu stands out in my mind because I had to wrestle with it unexpectedly over the weekend.)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
I wrote a program to detect what directories were still writeable as the restricted user, turned out to be quite a few (even including C:\).
Re:root accessibility (Score:5, Informative)
Newer spyware and viruses work just fine as limited users. Remember that their job isn't usually to take over or destroy the system, it's to monitor users and/or send mail. They don't need to be root to do that. Even as limited users they can install in an XP user's Application Data directory and start themselves at boot time by something as simple as a Startup folder entry.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
It isn't only that Microsoft doesn't even try to tell people that using Admin all the time is bad. It's also the stupid developers that never test their software with non-Admin accounts. And don't even start to talk about RunAs. That's broken as well for most apps.
The only way for all this nonsense to hopefully be worked out is if Microsoft forced developers by making the default account a "User" account. Not even a "Power User" as that's pretty lame as well. Then every app out there will be forced to store their settings in the user's respective "Documents and Settings" folder. At this time, a lot of apps still store settings in either C:\Program Files\ or in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE. I'd rather have it in my own C:\D & S\username\Application Data folder and in HKEY_CURRENT_USER. This makes it more similar to *nix where it stores all settings in my
Double Argh. Palm is one company that does this badly. Imagine everyone having to be an Administrator just because Palm Hotsync's data to C:\Program Files\Palm\$palmname. Sheesh.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, running as a normal user won't do any good in a single-user system. After all, you have the right to access your own folders, and thus are still vulnerable to malware which installs there - you just can't pollute other users with it.
Linux isn't immune to this problem either. It was designed to sandbox users from each other, but a single normal user will find it difficult to sandbox individual processes. Any process running at my privileges can access all my files, install cron jobs to be run automatically at machine boot, etc.
A real solution is a fine-grained permission control. For example, a Web browser should be able to read it's configuration files and plugins/extensions, connect to any Internet address, and write to the bookmark file(s) and download and cache directorie(s). It shouldn't be able to do anything else. If there was an easy way to do this, even if the browser was compromised by a web site, there wouldn't be much that site could do. Especially if you could set the bookmark and configuration files to be stored as a "journaled" file, which would record the changes to it and allow returning to any given point in time. Obviously, you'd also need to move any downloaded files away from the download folder and check them with MD5/SHA1 checksums to avoid tampering (but how do you get that checksum, if you suspect your browser has been compromised ?)
I'd imagine something like this could be done with relative ease with Hurd [gnu.org], since one of it's design goals is to allow each user to replace parts of the operating system (even the file systems) with new parts without disturbing others. So you could install a translator [gnu.org] to control access to your home directory or any subdirectories (but of course such translators can also be removed by programs runnign with your permissions - that's one permission that should be droppable).
An alternative way would be to allow users to build and set up "subusers" - simply add 32 bits to processes (and files) user id. The complete id would then be in the form of userid.subid. Userid.0 would have all the rights of the user, while userid.1 would be a "subuser" and have limited rights (the system would basically make userid.0 the root of his own home directory). This could also be generalized into a hierarchical authority tree, allowing individual programs to run parts of them as more restricted users (for example, a p2p-application could generate separate processes for managing file storage and network connectivity, allowing the part that touches the network to run without any access to filesystem and thus reducing the likelihood of a bug in it from causing damage).
To summarize: the traditional access controls are designed to protect users from each other. This is not enough. A single unprivileged user needs an easy way to make sandboxes for programs to run in. If the computer is a house divided with walls to different rooms for each user, then all those users need the ability to further subdivide their own rooms with more walls, and they must be able to make/remove those walls without help from the janitor (administrator).
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
This KB article [microsoft.com] makes a passing mention of this, but doesn't tell you which games require Admin privs.
Really I think this is just bad design - they could be written to operate normally under non-admin accounts, but ren't. and it's not just games - numerous applications on windows do this for various reasons (registry access/file access etc..)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
He wasn't criticizing what you said, he was criticizing your reasoning behind what you said. If what you said is true for "viruses" and "malware", why wouldn't it be also true for "remote exploits"?
It sounds to me like you came up with an overgeneralization and now you're trying to rationalize it in face of contradictory evidence. *sight* You can be as impatient with us as you want and you can patronize us all you want, but your backtracking rationalization about the technical proficiency of users doesn't hold much water. For me, the only reason I first installed Apache was because I had no clue about how I could install Microsoft's Personal Web Server. I suspect it's the same for most users. Apache simply worked out of the box, that's it magic and that's partly why it has the biggest marketshare.
Technical capability of the users. (Score:5, Informative)
Good industrial design makes sure, that the average user does per default the save things and doing unsafe things needs extra effort. For this reason, nearly all motorised saws and knives have clever hand- and finger guards to reduce the chance of accidents.
Microsoft and most other software companies take with the opposite approach, they just put the onus of safe operation on the user. Considering that most user don't have don't want the necessary knowledge to do that, this idea will fail.
The solution is not to educate users, but to build systems that can be operated in a safe manner by following simple and logical security rules that even my grandmother can understand.
Rules like: As long as you don't click on it, it can do no harm.
Re:No thanks (Score:4, Interesting)
If you would steal a car, would it be Toyota or BMW? I mean, if I was a haxor trying to steal someones CC, it would be $3000 dual G5 owner rather than $500 Taiwan OEM owner.
Or... Something real interesting showed up when I check my Internet Plugins folder (Yes, mac IE even uses Netscape plugin arch)
cable25-100:/Library/Internet Plug-Ins ilgaz$ ls -l
total 72
drwxrwxrwx 3 ilgaz ilgaz 102 9 Oct 15:08 DRM Plugin.bundle
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 6 Jul 22:00 Flash Player.plugin
-rwxrwxr-x 1 root admin 963 22 Jul 17:09 Java Applet Plugin Enabler
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 22 Jul 17:23 Java Applet.plugin
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 31 Aug 05:17 JavaPluginCocoa.bundle
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 4752 22 Jul 17:09 NP-PPC-Dir-Shockwave
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 1 Apr 2004 QuickTime Plugin.plugin
-rw-r--r-- 1 ilgaz admin 0 15 Oct 11:42 RealPlayer Plugin
-rw-r--r-- 1 ilgaz admin 0 15 Oct 11:42 RealPlayer Plugin.xpt
drwxrwxrwx 3 ilgaz ilgaz 102 9 Oct 15:08 Windows Media Plugin
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 856 22 Mar 2004 flashplayer.xpt
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 2394 1 Apr 2004 nsIQTScriptablePlugin.xpt
Look which companies plugin is installed in awful insecure way?
Microsoft!
While at it, if you don't have "spyware" concerns, as a admin user, go to www.pcpitstop.com (in fact, they aren'T spying) and run their tests...
See the amazing things ActiveX can do! Thats the root of problem.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
Quite a few things on MacOS X are directories, even though they appear as single objects in the Finder (applications are a good example of this).
It's more the Unix-style permissions you should be looking at:Directory, owner (root) can read, add to, delete from and list contents; group (admin) can read, add to, delete from and list contents; everyone else can read and list contents.Directory, owner (ilgaz) can read, add to, delete from and list contents; group (ilgaz) can read, add to, delete from and list contents; everyone else can read, add to, delete from and list contents.
So, basically, any old user could delete some important executable file from the Windows Media Plugin directory and replace it with one of their own. It's not even got the root:admin user stuff like a normal system file...
Re:infomechanics (Score:5, Insightful)
Simply put - the "maintenance" that we refer to with software, and that's being compared to cars above is in fact no such thing. Every patch and update that's issued is to correct a _mistake_ in the software - not something that gradually failed because of wear. Cars need regular maintaining because they're physical objects in a physical environment and the stresses and imperfections of that environment cause real physical damage that needs to be repaired. Software "maintenance" is actually incremental development - it's correct mistakes that are in the original.
All that said, software (at least most of it) is far, far more complex than your typical car, and has had far less time to mature. The physical limits that a car operates in are well defined and well understood, and the vehicles are designed with that in mind. There are well known and well understood physical requirements and those requirements are easily tested. Software lives in a very different environment with a very different level of contstraint and a very different level of user expectation.
Re:infomechanics (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No thanks (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems mods didn't care about your signature on this topic. Proof? Your posts score
I tell you one interesting thing. While it was working back in 2003, I updated a 68030 Mac Duo laptop 7.6's modem driver from Apple site. I even had support about how to add more ram. That machine is back from 1994 or something.
OS X updates aren't service packs, they are new OS'es. 10.3.0 is a new OS , 10.3.1 is a service pack.
About antivirus and anti adware? As its a BSD based real OS, its run by rights. As its a pain in the ass to code a spyware on linux, its much more harder on OS X. Guess why? OS X shows a user friendly window which is centralized by OS GUI whenever a program needs administrative access.
Oh there is a program on OS X, comes with it and has a unsolved security problem. Yes, it still exists. Guess what is it? INTERNET EXPLORER macintosh edition.
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Darth Gates: Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design.
Moz Skybrwoser: Your overconfidence is your weakness.
Darth Gates: Your faith OSS is yours.
Darth Gates: Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, up there on the sanctuary website [mozilla.org], are walking into a trap, as is your OSS Community. It was *I* who allowed the Alliance to think IE was full of holes, It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best coders awaits them! Oh, I'm afraid IE Longhorn will be quite operational when your friends arrive.
Darth Gates: As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the DRM of this fully armed and operational Operating System!
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Funny)
A note to all dairy farmers:
Please be very careful milking your hermaphroditic cows.
Thanks you.
Cows and bulls (Score:5, Funny)
A: The bull smiles when you milk him...
Re:No thanks (Score:5, Informative)
Even if this is true (but may not be, see below) being an admin under OSX is very different than being an admin under Windows. On Windows, you have rw permissions on everything, whereas under OSX, all it means is that you are in the sudoers file. This means that in order to do anything dangerous, you still need to type in your password again to gain (temporary) root privs.
Can someone else comment on how the OSX install/add user process prompts you to set up permissions. AFAICR the user is set up as a normal user first, and you then have to explicitly go to the user manager and give them admin permissions. Very different to Windows, where you are prompted to set up an admin user as part of the install process!
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Uhhhh... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Uhhhh... (Score:5, Funny)
"Now that you're in America, if you need to get the police on the phone, just dial 911."
"That's nothing. In Soviet Russia, we don't even have to dial."
Easy to assign blame (Score:5, Insightful)
Sick and tired of fixing spyware infested machines.
Re:Easy to assign blame (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Easy to assign blame (Score:5, Interesting)
Ahem......assuming D:\ is the USB key, before you plug it into a Windows machine. You can also set the read-only attribute via right clicking on the file in Explorer and going to properties (obviously, on your own, hopefully clean, Windows machine) There, all better now.
To the grandparent: Thank you for pointing that project out. It truly shows that having the source code to software open and available can lead to all sorts of interesting - and very useful - things.
Soko
Rubbish! (Score:5, Insightful)
Third-Party? (Score:5, Funny)
Bill Gates lecturing about security... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bill Gates lecturing about security... (Score:4, Insightful)
software, eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad programming model (Score:5, Interesting)
So, pray tell, how is making a horribly insecure third-party application model (DirectX) and then complaining about how people are exploiting it supposed to hold water? YOU ARE THE API DEVELOPER. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ANTICIPATE POTENTIAL ABUSES.
Because if I'm reading this right, then that's exactly what Gates is doing. No wonder Microsoft's products are so shitty; they think that security is something that happens to other people.
What's that I hear dying? (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that, Bill? When you said you were going to make all the Windows computers secure by focusing all your energies on securing your code?
Now, it's not your fault, and you won't do anything to fix it? Then why on earth did you tell everyone that you would?
Re:What's that I hear dying? (Score:5, Funny)
3rd Party Software. The Solution to, and Cause of all of Windows' problems.
The more I look at B. Gates... (Score:5, Funny)
Although he is much uglier and....male.
Re:The more I look at B. Gates... (Score:5, Funny)
> Although he is much uglier and....male.
and not just a figment of your imagination
I'm so sick of the lies (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the same mentality of shipping a crappy product and having tech support take care of the issues. Okay, fine, at least I have someone to complain to and I can return products, but with information you don't have that option. You complain to your peers, who are just an echo chamber. The fact that lying usually goes unchallenged in media makes for bigger more destructive lies.
The browser has holes, its a piece of software. This is way over the line. How did the information age become the disinformation age? Perhaps we officially entered the post-postman world [amazon.com] where everything is a soundbite that flies through the subconscious and sticks there. Long corrections don't have the same stickiness, so lying is now smart business.
Keep it up Bill, you're making my next Apple purchase all the sweeter.
Disclaimer for the mods: Yes, many politicians lie. Apple isnt perfect, etc. But there is a difference between small and big lies. Lies which are harmless and those which cause destruction.
Re:I'm so sick of the lies (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all they are utterly clueless and can't even discern between the truth and a lie. They are pretty much programmed to accept whatever somebody on the tee vee tells them.
Look at this (or any other election) for example. Is Kerry a flip flopper? Is he a coward? Did he get his metals from self inflicted wounds? Ask your typical american and they will say yes. Press them for details and you'll realiize they don't know shit, they are simply repeating what they saw on television commercials.
Same with Gates and Company. Ask yourself. Have you ever heard or read an interview with Ballmer or Gates in which they didn't tell at least one lie? Not a minor one either but a blatant out and out lie. They people are habitual and pathalogical liars. They will continue to tell lies until the press calls them on it. Since they buy lots of advertising don't hold your breath though.
Critical assesment vs Belief (Score:5, Insightful)
Our children are being indoctrinated from a very early age to believe what authority figures (parents, teachers, the tv, etc.) tell them. Should we be surprised when a concept ingrained for 10+ years during the most formative childhood years translates to an easily misled populace?
Do not believe anyone. Do not believe politicians, scientists, priests, your parents, the police, and please don't believe the mass media.
Teach your children to think, not believe.
Q.
Re:I'm so sick of the lies (Score:5, Insightful)
So you see things like "Bush said this, and Kerry said that." Which is 100% true. But there's no investigation into whether the quotes are actually, like, true.
So Microsoft will release a press release saying "We're improving security!" and then various media reports will say "Microsoft says it's improving security." But the media won't actually investigate whether or not Microsoft actually is improving security, they'll just report that Microsoft has said that they are.
About the only time you'll hear any discussions about the truth of any position anyone has is on various talk shows, where to "show both sides" you'll get two people who are representing "opposite sides" of a given debate. Directly opposite sides.
Since these people are soley debating for their side, we're ultimately left with no middle ground. Only two extreme views on a topic.
So while the two "sides" of the debate are represented, the media generally "let's the reader decide" which side they believe in. But since the veracity of the two sides has never been called into question (other than each side calling the other wrong), the average reader/listener/viewer has no way of judging complicated scenarios they don't really understand.
(For example, I don't really know what Kerry's position is on Iraq. I have no idea whether or not it's a good position, because I only hear polarized viewpoints on it. About all I know is that he intends to "do it differently" and "get international support." I have no idea about the details and don't know enough about international politics and warfare to judge it even if I did know.)
This is one of the main reasons I get all my news from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. At least then I know it's all fake. :)
I'm currently up due to insomnia, so if any of that makes no sense, I'll try and post a correction tomorrow. It'll be in fine print and on the fifth page. :)
Re:I'm so sick of the lies (Score:5, Insightful)
Politicians (especially the ones in power, regardless of party) always tend to lie. And salespeople have never been noted for truthfulness.
What has changed, gradually, over a couple of decades, is that the media no longer provide a check on politicians and corporate liars.
The purpose of the media used to be to provide information and critical comment. That's changed. A newspaper or a TV network makes more money if it's operated primarily as an entertainment. That means: nothing that requires the consumer to think, because a lot of people don't like to think. Not too many boring facts, either (unless they're sensational).
Don't be too hard on Gates. There will always be people whose goal in life is to make more money, by any means that works. The problem is that our society has lost the checks and balances that used to constrain people like him.
From TFA.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Gates: We're big believers in interoperability.
BWWAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAHHAAAA!!!!!!
Yes yes... ofcourse, interoperability within Microsoft products
Article is a troll (Score:4, Insightful)
Wish there was a rating system for articles.
What Bill means (Score:5, Funny)
Gibberish (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Gibberish (Score:4, Insightful)
It just means that Bill Gates still doesn't get network connected computers. I remember he once thought that 'the Internet' would never be important. And now I think that, IE monopoly and all, Microsoft still, inherently, deeply, doesn't get network connected computers. Yes, they forced Netscape out of the market with IE, but for them IE is just another piece of software.
Re:Gibberish (Score:4, Informative)
I've heard this before. (Score:5, Funny)
Lando: "It's not my fault!"
Bill: "It's not my fault!"
Bill (Score:4, Insightful)
Nuts! (Score:4, Funny)
Catch 22! (Score:5, Funny)
Gates: Understand those are cases where you are downloading third-party software.
Q: Might you add anti-virus/spyware protection in Windows?
Gates: It's not a thing you build in. You have to offer a service. There are third parties who are doing a good job. We're always taking a hard look, but we don't have any concrete plans.
So if I get this right the problem with security is that I download third party software and Mr. Gates thinks that it can be solved by third party service (which means probably downloading third party anti-virus software). Now I clearly understand why the problem is never solved...
The user's fault? We can fix that! (Score:5, Insightful)
Again.
As usual.
As always.
Microsoft and especially Mr. Gates have both blamed the user for DOS and windows bugs, et cetera, ad nauseum, since the beginning.
It's one of the things that really encouraged me to dump windows. Being told personally, to one's face, by Microsoft and Mr. Gates that the problems with DOS and windows is my fault made it very easy to walk away from the huge investment in microsoft stuff.
Since the user is at fault, the user can fix it--like I did: dump microsoft.
+1 FUNNY (Score:4, Funny)
Come on, mod me +1 FUNNY for all those who haven't RTA...
I pissed myself when I read this one.
I guess he's right (Score:5, Funny)
I think we should all thank Bill for coming clean about this ever increasing problem.
Embrace, extend, and extinguish. (Score:4, Funny)
Gates: "We're big believers in interoperability."
Re:Embrace, extend, and extinguish. (Score:4, Interesting)
I was amused by that, too. I was tempted to call bull, but technically they are interested in interoperability.
It's just that they seem to believe that everyone else should have to pay them for the privilege of being interoperable.
It's great from a business point of view, but not much use from a F/OSS point of view, unless projects manage to pick up a sponsor who would be willing to shell out to license the technology and manage to do it in such a way as is compatible with whatever license they're using.
Catch 22 (Score:5, Insightful)
It is kind of a catch 22. If Windows had built in anti-virus software no one would buy 3rd party anti-virus software and Microsoft would gain a monopoly in the market. They would get their asses sued and everyone would complain that they have a monopoly or they have created an unfair environment. We've seen it before. If Windows doesn't have built in anti-virus software everyone complains they don't.
And even if Windows did have built in anti-virus software, can you honestly tell me, given their track record, that you would feel secure with it? If everyone used Windows built in anti-virus software wouldn't it be just that much easier to exploit and cause even more damage.
Why we put up with this madness... (Score:4, Insightful)
So why Bill Gates is still in buisness after making such a comment: "Understand those are cases where you are downloading third-party software" it makes my eys roll. Why is the customer always right? because only the customer knows what he or she wants. If the customer wants a good solid car, they are going to buy a good solid car from *insert favorite car manufacturer here*. So why people put up with this slander from the biggest man in Microsoft is beyond me.
Personally, i think i run a very tight ship. I dont need antivirus, and a nice firewall is all that stands between me and the next script-kiddie on the block. Problems i've ever had are related to IE and poor OS performance.
Because i will shortly be entering my era of University in 2005, my thoughs turn to my financial future. I will not be able to afford a new computer, much less new games/new MS OS. When the time comes when i can no longer play games on my current setup, windows will have no further place on my computer.
*Deep Breath* - Thank you for your time.
3rd party (Score:4, Insightful)
True, that. Now the point is that you're downloading this "third-party software", aka virus, trojan horse or spyware, even though you never wanted to.
I'm sorry, what!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Q: There is talk of a Google browser. Internet Explorer has had its security woes. How do you keep users?
Gates: More has been invested in making IE secure than any browser on the planet by a long shot. Nothing is going to change. That's the one over 90% of people are going to keep using.
[Italics and bolded sentence my own markup]
So let me get this straight, Mr. Gates. You have thousands of people working just on Internet Explorer, and yet...a thousand or two thousand people working on Mozilla have bested you?
Nothing is going to change, indeed, Mr. Gates. You're going to keep spewing the same old story, ignoring obvious holes in your own logic (third-party software is to blame for all security problems, true...but that doesn't mean your software should allow third-party software to install itself without the user doing a thing), denying any obvious falsehoods in your own statements (" We feel like we are pioneering an experience that to us is a clear thing most households will want." - Gates, regarding Windows Media Center PCs...I'm sorry, I didn't know you pioneered multicasting from a set-top box...I presume Linksys is paying you licensing fees for their video broadcast device, to name one alternative?), and hoping people will be stupid enough to follow it.
The saddest part of the above discourse is, Gates is probably right. People are, until told otherwise, going to keep using bug-ridden products, until they are shown that there are alternatives...I know many users who have never clicked Windows Update in their lives, and not because they've never used Windows.
I could be wrong, but I'm sensing a downward spiral, when M$ can announce things such as they did in their article, and not get negative feedback from the interviewer. Just my $0.05.
He's right, of course. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sweetest Revenge: Linux Media Centers (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it'd be great if we could beat Microsoft to the punch by offering all of this and more using Linux and open formats (not WMA Bill!). It seems like there is already a lot of work in the area going on (MythTV [mythtv.org], Freevo [sourceforge.net], Mister House [misterhouse.net], VLC [videolan.org]) but is any of this ready to be easily set up by the average Joe? Is there any work being done to put all the pieces together. Perhaps a modded distribution geared specifically to creating and setting up a Media Center type environment. Not only could a Linux based solution put anything from MS to shame it could also force Movies/TV/Music industries to support open formats if the Linux Media Center becomes the dominant player.
Am I dreaming or can the open source community take the lead here?
This is great! (Score:5, Funny)
That just rules! We believe in interoperability, as long as you bow befor us! Kneel before Zod, errr... Bill! It is almost laughable, if it weren't so sad, to hear Bill Gates saying bad things like the above quote. Isnt what he accuses Apple of EXACTLY what Microsoft has been pusing the world to for years? What is the difference between being the sole supplier of iPods and iTunes (which Apple is) and being virtually the sole provider for desktop OSs, and using such position to force the adoption of "standards" that favor MS products.
Funny, thats the exact thing that was said about web browsers before IE became so ingrained into the Windows code base that its pretty much inseperable... Its amazing... it really is. Its like, his lips are moving, but the words coming out dont match the movements. Just like a poorly dubbed kung-fu movie. Ummm... if that is the case, if I were Bill, et al, I would be demanding a refund on the IE "security" expenses...Could he explain (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Antivirus is not a thing you "build in" (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not talking pure heuristic detection, because a perfect heuristic detector is theoretically impossible. But why can't Microsoft build in a scanner that downloads virus definitions?
Virtually all of the viruses of the last five years or so have been Microsoft viruses. (Boot sector viruses are soo last millenium, and everybody's BIOS already detects those.) Not "PC" viruses, not "MS-DOS" viruses, but specifically "Microsoft Windows" viruses. Since they seem to be at the forefront of providing the virus delivery systems, why do I have to pay someone else (like Symantec) to protect me from them? Why isn't patching these defects included in the purchase price of this obviously defective product?
Re:Antivirus is not a thing you "build in" (Score:4, Insightful)
Or hey, here's a novel idea... maybe make your OS secure enough that you might actually have a choice whether or not you want to drop X amount of dollars on a 3rd party virus scanning app.
My god. The people at Microsoft can be so completely dense sometimes.
Re:Antivirus is not a thing you "build in" (Score:5, Funny)
"If OSX were #1 I'm sure the attacks would be just a fast and furious."
Amen, brother! That's why I tossed out that POS Apache web server and got me a brand new IIS. I mean what with all the security holes that come from being the number one piece of software and all, I just KNOW that IIS will never be a problem.
And besides, look at the name: Ah Pah Chee. Get it? It's a Patchy web server. It's gotta suck!
[Disclaimer. The above is one man's poor attempt at humour. If, while moderating, you find that this does not satisfy your personal criteria for 'funny', return this post in its original packaging to the sender and you will be receive a full refund.]
Re:Blame Game (Score:5, Insightful)
Money is no replacement for clue.
Re:Best quote from Bill... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:OS X rox! (Score:5, Funny)
That depends on how tall your building is, what the apple is made of and how the apple is protected.
If I enclosed the apple in six layers of bubble wrap with the bubbles on the inside, encased the bubble wrap in three inches of loose polystyrene beads, enclosed the polystyrene beads in three inches of low-density foam, enclosed the low-density foam in three inches of high-density foam, enclosed the high-density foam in a double-thickness corrugated cardboard box, enclosed the cardboard box in two layers of egg cartons and enclosed the egg cartons in another cardboard box, the apple isn't going to be damaged if I dropped it off the roof of my house.