Sony To Package StarOffice On European PCs 287
Jahf writes "This News.com article talks about how Sony is adopting Sun's Star Office suite over Microsoft office in some areas. It's nice to see it being adopted, maybe this is the beginning of a trend. While Star Office is still not as optimized as it could be (read: it eats memory and can be a little slow even compared to MS Office), it has all the features most people need and then some at a much better price." Specifically, as reader Yacoubean points out (pointing to coverage at InfoWorld),"The PCs will be sold in the United Kingdom, France, Spain, Germany, Austria and Switzerland."
Anti-competitive? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, I say that if the almighty dollar causes more marketing and development work to be done in the name of Open Source and Free Software, than so be it!
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:2)
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:3, Informative)
Here it is pal, look [nrtw.org]at privilege number 2 and you'll find out. And yes this is in America
Your document disproves your point. (Score:3, Informative)
Your linked document doesn't spin it that way, but that's what it means.
To clarify, here's a quote from the FTC [ftc.gov]that spells things out more directly:
-ZipwowRe:Anti-competitive? (Score:3, Informative)
Mean while, you deal with legal monopolies every day. Your local phone company, gas company, and electric company are all monopolies. Those of you in the US, EDS (who administer the GRE, SAT, etc) is a monopoly
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:5, Insightful)
Without choice and competition, Microsoft has been able to dictate what is popular and what's not.
LoB
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:2)
Microsoft was extending their monopolization power by setting the price when the vendors wanted to have choice. Say if a vendors chose to bundle non-MS office, then the OEM price of Windows OS would be risen to an extent that using non-MS office was totally unjustified. That could kill the all the competitors making office-suits.
I don't recall the exact legal term, but taking actions to extend your monopolization across other market, e.g. price-setting, is illegal. It's good that the court has recognized OS, browsers and office-suit are of different markets at the very first place, otherwise the lawsuits would be rejected.
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:3)
There's a big difference (Score:2)
When I bought my Vaio in the UK a few months ago I was surprised to find it didn't come with an office suite at all (which is no big deal to me, I didn't check because an Office Suite wasn't on my list of requirements. I've since installed OpenOffice just in case I need one, but I've not used it yet).
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:2)
Re:Anti-competitive? (Score:2)
BTW who uses active desktop anyway, only feature I see it has is the ability to have jpeg/gif wallpapers?
Works Suite (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Works Suite (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Works Suite (Score:4, Insightful)
A simple, small, easy to use word processor that's geared at newbies is what Linux needs. Something that's not so intimidating as Office, something your mom could figure out, without having to ask you "What are all these things(icons) for?"
I wonder why MS hasn't put more effort into Works! That's a HUGE market - Office is the WRONG choice for 1st time computer users.
Re:Works Suite (Score:2, Informative)
Abiword!
So? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sony's been shipping stuff other than office for a long time.
- A.P.
So, it's nice to see Primo Open Source. (Score:3, Insightful)
My wife used to run Star Office and liked it better than M$. M$ Office is an ugly beast that writes hideous propriatory formated files. Star Office read those files, dispelling the bizare perception that M$ programers were some kinds of wizards. Other than that, my wife simply enjoyed Star Office's easy to use layout.
Postscript & PDF (Score:2)
BTW, StarOffice is only Open Source in the sense that Mac OS X or Netscape Navigator 7 is Open Source. In other words, it's not.
Re:So, it's nice to see Primo Open Source. (Score:2, Interesting)
The majority of people use Microsoft Office. Microsoft Office flawlessly reads
That's as simple as it needs to be.
Go to any office building and ask the secretary what she thinks of the
I'm getting tired of people bashing MS Office simply because it's a Microsoft product. You have to consider the possiblity that people elect to buy these products because they like using them, not just because Microsoft is ramming them down their throat. In fact, I challenge you to find a better office suite than Microsoft Office... (Hint: It isn't StarOffice, it isn't OpenOffice, it isn't Corel, and this is far from a matter of opinion).
OpenOffice will be a glorified text editor for some time to come.
Charting? (Score:2, Interesting)
This is Really a Microsoft Office Killer! (Score:5, Informative)
Kudos to Sun and the StarOffice group for creating a true Microsoft Office killer.
Seems OT, but.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This is Really a Microsoft Office Killer! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is Really a Microsoft Office Killer! (Score:2)
Re:Is this Really a Microsoft Office Killer? (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, what do I care? UltraEdit [ultraedit.com] + a web browser does everything I need.
Re:Is this Really a Microsoft Office Killer? (Score:2)
Did you try Xemacs? :)
Re:Is this Really a Microsoft Office Killer? (Score:2)
In Word 2K, I can type faster than the characters display (especially in tables)--on a 400MHz CPU, and I'm not a fast typist by any measure.
Word is a messy ugly kludge. What kind of crappy software requires faster than a 400MHz CPU for just text entry? Word is crap.
One serious advantage of OpenOffice over MS Office is that OpenOffice will always be making progress, and the GPL ensures that progress will never be lost. MS Office seems to take two steps back for each step forward.
So, if OpenOffice is too slow for your needs, there is a good chance that won't be true forever.
Re:This is Really a Microsoft Office Killer! (Score:2)
Did antitrust actually work? (Score:5, Interesting)
Could the anti-trust settlement, as weak as it is, actually be that effective? Is it really the reason the office suite market is going back up for grabs?
Re:Did antitrust actually work? (Score:2)
Re:Did antitrust actually work? (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft will tread lightly with regards to licensing of Windows but MS Office is open game because Microsoft was able to get the US States to drop their case against MS Office and concentrate only on the Windows OS.
When you see the US OEMs bundling StarOffice, OpenOffice, or Corel Office on business systems, THEN there's something going on at Microsoft.
LoB
Re:Did antitrust actually work? (Score:2)
That means no more MS Office and Encarta 'favors' demanded from the OEMs.
Does the court's amnes..., I mean settlement ruling also apply outside the court's jurisdiction, i.e. outside US territories? Or is M$ allowed to price their warez differently in different EU states, let alone elsewhere in the world?
Considering how unwilling the conservative pro- big business judicial system was to apply even most toothless remedies I would be extremely surprised if any restrictions whatsoever were placed on the home-grown global monopolist's foreign operations.
Re:Did antitrust actually work? (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, a small to medium company whose primary line of business is PC systems still has plenty to fear. Specifically that their OS licensing costs might just happen to go up by their Star Office cost savings + 20% because they don't fall under the same purchase plan anymore...
Re:Did antitrust actually work? (Score:2)
Now, m$ are going after that, and Sony is pissed.
So, what do they do? Release a PDA running Linux, and bundle StarOffice.
Business as usual, it seems.
Wretched Plotting! (Score:5, Funny)
Any takers? heheheh.
no plot...just smart business (Score:3, Insightful)
MS reveals that Office is paying the rent while they lose money on Xbox... Sony thinks about the fees they're paying MS every year, as long as MS Office is part of their computer package..."...choto.... Tanaka-san...look at these numbers....why are we helping MS to keep the Xbox afloat?"
Sony has been subsidizing the Xbox, and now they have a way to halt that practice
Remember...investing in or doing business with MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
Re:Wretched Plotting! (Score:3, Interesting)
I for one am loving the PS2/Xbox battle. Microsoft, for all their success, is a young upstart compared to Sony, which has been playing the same game far longer than Microsoft has. Sony almost killed Sega and is kicking Nintendo's ass - they're not about to let some newcomer start playing in their console market. Microsoft though is pretty big too and they play to win. Always.
Will Microsoft learn from their mistakes come time for PS3 v. Xbox2 and come to dominate? Will Sony have learned Microsoft's weaknesses and exploit them to the fullest? Coming to a TV near you, the Sony/Microsoft joint venture: the multi-billion-dollar game, Cutthroat Business.
--
Whose cuisine will reign supreme?
Open/StarOffice speed (Score:3, Interesting)
On a side note, does anyone here know why Microsoft's 'Word' can load in like, 2 seconds, and OpenOffice.org's 'Writer' takes about 10 times that? Does M$ do something special with the OS to facilitate faster loading for Office?
Re:Open/StarOffice speed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Echoes of Mozilla.exe -turbo ? (Score:2)
So in other words, MS Office's preloader is like Mozilla's, right?
Except Mozilla's preloader is off by default, it's not hidden from the user, and it only exists in the first place because so many people complained "IE loads faster than Mozilla." IE and Office cheat by getting loaded even if you don't need or want them. I guess Mozilla is also sort of cheating, but at least they're up front about it.
Re:Open/StarOffice speed (Score:2)
Openoffice is not optimized while ms office is, that is why it takes much longer to start up, uses more memory and cpu time with less functionality. Blaiming prelinking, preloading or microsoft of dirty tricks won't get anyone anywhere. MS office is a mature product, OOo isn't, yet. If OOo guys follow kde guys' trend, OOo will be better and faster with time, instead of better and slower.
Re:Open/StarOffice speed (Score:3, Interesting)
OpenOffice/StarOffice should have a boot time module loader IMHO. Let it get swapped out if the apps aren't used and memory gets tight but atleast make it an option.
I found it strange that StarOffice 5.2 starts quicker than OpenOffice 1.0.1 considering OpenOffice was supposed to trim down the apps by separating them. It's painfully slow on a dual 333 Celeron, 7200RPM IDE, 384MB RAM.
LoB
Re:Open/StarOffice speed (Score:3, Interesting)
change it to suit yourself (Score:2)
Re:Open/StarOffice speed (Score:2)
Re:Open/StarOffice speed (Score:2)
Under Linux? Probably everything was in the buffer cache, with that much RAM, before you started it the second time.
This will absolutely fail (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know about you, but I am completely lost after, "Dear Sirs:"
If I didn't have the paperclip, I'd never know who I was writing to.
Re:This will absolutely fail (Score:3, Funny)
I'm so glad I have clippy to help me type all the parts of a letter in their proper places.
Its the XBox Factor (Score:2, Interesting)
Remember PS2 is a Xbox competitor
keep in mind (Score:5, Insightful)
sony knows that office and windows are the cash cows for microsoft. sony knows that if microsoft starts hurting there, they can't afford to keep pissing money away on the xbox, sony's direct competition...
it's a street fight, and sony just kicked microsoft in the balls.
makes sense to me.
it'll be interesting to watch where it goes.. a new service pack kills sony dvd drivers? I have no clue.
either way I'll get some laughs out of the two slugging it out.
Re:keep in mind (Score:2)
Hehe, you just made my day.
Re:keep in mind (Score:2)
Sony have a fairly small share of the PC market and anyway, historically any threats to Microsoft's market share have only made them compete harder.
VAIO means video audio integrated operation. How many VAIO users are heavy Office users? Most likely Sony did this so they can save some money on licensing software their customers barely use anyway.
Not a bad move. (Score:2)
Just wish Apple would Open Source AppleWorks and take over the GUI section of SO and OO though
StarTux
Re:Not a bad move. (Score:2)
Yikes! While I like the apple GUI I cannot stand how there menus work. I just wish that Apple would go the NeXT way on the menus. It made more sense.
Business Decision (Score:5, Insightful)
If Sony was a well-run organization, its computer division would be making business decisions based on their own market rather than some vague spite because of some other divisions battles. There are several valid business reasons why offering a cheaper (to Sony) Office solution would make business sense.
MS is not going to run out of money any time soon - so suggesting that this is being done so MS stops spending money is just plain asinine. Rather, the very reason MS is investing in the XBOX is because they want to earn money in more diverse ways and if the Office business were to become less profitable, that would only encourage them to invest further into other markets in the hopes of being able to grow or maintain revenue.
It is possible that management asked the computer division to do this and use that as a threat to ask Microsoft to back off from the XBOX. However, that is arguably an antitrust violation similar to the one Microsoft got into trouble for since the PS2 is a virtual monopoly. However, I sincerely doubt that this is the case.
Re:Business Decision (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to respond to this. I think normally this would be a valid point, except that Microsoft has two business divisions referred to as "Office" and "Windows", which are used to fuel their slash and burn business practices.
I would love for any other Microsoft division to compete on its own merit with that from any competitor, without the immense backing they recieve from those two monopolies.
Re:Business Decision (Score:2)
Sun should buy Corel for dismemberment (Score:5, Interesting)
Price comes first, and Corel is valued at cash value, if not even lower. They've got loads of software, WP Office (which luckily wasn't rebranded Corel XXXX to even destroy the brand too), CorelDraw, Micrografx line, Softquad line (HoTMetaL etc.) and who knows what else. And thanks to Corel they're all essentially valued at NIL. Use what is useful and spit out the rest for sale (most of which might even have a chance of success once out of Corel's clueless fingers) or open-sourcing.
Although Corel have tried their best to become totally irrelevant, they still continue to release PR that some journos read, or at least re-circulate. Currently that muscular PR machine is churning out, you guessed it, Micorsoft PR and their employees probably get fired just for mentioning Linux. Problem easily solved by Sun.
Sun knows how to sue monopolists instead of giving them discounted shares and even working for them for free (yes, you guessed who). If Java is worth $billion + damages, what about WordPerfect which was pummelled out of all channels (esp. preloads) by MS. Isn't MS-Office micorsoft's most valuable cash cow? Hit 'em where it hurts most.
And StarOffice... I'm sure there's something worth scavenging in WP Office that would benefit StarOffice. At least WP engineers used to be good at reverse-engineering MS-word filters. Migrating their remaining users out of micorsoft's sphere of influence would also be useful, as would phasing out the MS-windows-based no-revenue preloads that some OEMs use to avoid the full force of MS tax.
Who gets the savings? (Score:2, Interesting)
Star Office Just plain sucks! BE HONEST! (Score:4, Interesting)
I love *nix OSes. But Star Office on anything is dog slow and a nightmare to operate.
I was the Technology Director of a Small University and I purchased a load of new Dells(bout 1 year ago i think) Pentium 3 1.0 ghz. 256 megs of ram. I grabbed 40. We had 40 plain jane 233 mmx pentiums with 128 megs of ram and win 98. We only had liscenses for 40 copies of office 2000, so I smacked star office on the 233's. I had 40 machines that became dog slow, erratic, and crash prone. The ran office 2000 just fine. The productivity level for the students dropped abour 30%. I started keeping a log of the problems and they all pointed at star office. Locking the box up, not opening word files well. Whole slew of shit.
I tweaked and tweaked, and finally threw office back on the boxes and the liscensing be damned. Cause in this case office worked better, the students got into Acess, Excel, and kept on chugging.
On my new boxes I dual booted win 2000 and redhat. Taught classes in both. Taught Star Office and Office. And Office is a great product, yes it is bloated, but you can do *alot* in it. Star Office could not touch it. Office 97 runs better, doesnt eat the desktop and resources Alive.
I like Open Office, still see room for improvement. Loads better than Star. But saying Star is an Office Killer in this day and age that is ridicoulous.
Plus, in poor countries they learn to use what they have, the file server I replaces ran sco on a 1.0 gig scsi drive, 486 sx 25. They had done wonders with the box. Replaced it with Red 6.2 dual 1.0 p///s. Raid 3 on 36 gig scsis.(we got a good deal with dell).
We took a survey of 300 students. They liked linux, they wanted to learn linux, and we taught it. But hands down they voted star office out. They just couldnt be productive in their normal school work with star office.
Puto
Re:Star Office Just plain sucks! BE HONEST! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Star Office Just plain sucks! BE HONEST! (Score:2)
I was using Office 2000 on 98 machines, and Star 5.2 on the same ones. Star Office had lower system recquirements, older product. Office 2000 on same system, but higher resource requirements whupped its ass hands down. And on 40 machines.
My windows 2000 box is an Athlon 1800, 512 meg, 7200 IBM drive, and Star Office 6.0 sits on it, and Office XP. And for work(as well as compatibilty issues with the rest of the world) Office is the better product.
I try and and keep all options on my machine cause you never know who I might support.
On the XP box is office 2000 and Open Office. And guess which one functions better?
Workstation productivity for pushing characters around Office is the best. Linux kicks ass in so many other areas but MS has office down.
I am sorry I was unclear. But I was comparing 5.2 to 2000. But even 97 is better than 5.2.
Best tool for the job aint always the free one.
Puto
You are being dishonest.... (Score:2)
I guess you took the usual short cut and worked with small documents like business letters rather than long documents. You might be fairer to your students by giving them prepared large documents and spreadsheets to be changed.
Office 2000 is much better and is a reasonably solid product, although it still has problems with columns and object placement (forget about its DTP pretensions, MS Publisher does this much better).
Office 2000 is a great product, unless you have to pay for it (or the extra memory/faster processors). This is why some people only upgraded Office this year, because when you have several thousand users, upgrades are not to be lightly taken. Especially if it means machine upgrades and more memory.
Open Office isn't the best, but the price is right (remember we don't see educational discounts in the real world) and for a lot of cases it can replace Microsoft Office. If this means I can junk 5 copies of Office and just keep one for special ocassions, that is already a saving.
It already happened here (Score:5, Informative)
Interesting Times (Score:2, Interesting)
Any one of these may not pose any threat on their own, but together they may be in a position to eat away a sizeable chunk of Microsoft's profits. The obvious way for Microsoft combat to combat this multiheaded threat is a two-pronged attack. .
First, Microsoft needs to emphasize the imporance of the network effect (which is basically when a product becomes more useful and valuable as its userbase grows: this effect can be observed in a product like an office suite, where I need my document to be readable on my client's system. It is considerably less pronounced in something like toothpaste ) in its marketing efforts. The pitch would go like this: most everyone is familiar with MS Office, most everyone uses MS Office now, so it's best to stick with MS Office. StarOffice may boast "95%" compatibility, but what business wants to risk their bottom line on the chance that they'll never have to worry about the other 5%?
The second prong to combat the hordes of rival office suites would be for Microsoft to simply slash the price of MS Office. Miscrosoft already pulls in nearly 80% profit on Office, and is in an excellent cash position, having over a billion in liquid reserves. They could therefore easily handle a temporary dent in profits for the sake of maintaining or even expanding market share. This would have the additional advantage of reinforcing the network effects enjoyed by MS Office, thereby strengthening Microsoft's position. Prices could be raised again, of course, with the next release of MS Office.
Or maybe not. Perhaps Ballmer and co. have something even sneakier up their sleeves, or maybe we will see Microsoft's rivals make inroads into the Office suite market. Whatever the case, it's fun to watch the plays unfold, kind of like the world's slowest RTS game.
this is becoming just like the metric system (Score:2)
amen.
Re:this is becoming just like the metric system (Score:2)
Well, it means that their scientists occasionally get confused and therefore crash their space probes. But, hey, if the USA wants to remain compatible with the only two other non-metric companies in the world Burma and Liberia), why not?
Not quite sure what he means about the rest of the world having to follow though. Are the bolts on American Toyotas imperial or metric? And American scientists must at least read metric if they want to benefit from any research done anywhere else in the world.
the sad truth is (Score:3, Interesting)
the big test will come when new version of windows no longer runs office97/2k.
But does the consumer see the savings? (Score:2)
Star Office 5.2 (Score:2)
However, I get attachments from various people who are prone to macro viruses. The total absence of Office from my system means that this crap never gets a chance to run.
When I look at huge multicolored spreadsheets that actually do something that could be done far more elegantly in a three-table relational database, Word documents produced by people with the visual intelligence of a seaslug, and PP presentations that make my eyeballs go funny, I do wonder just how much highly paid make-work Office has caused in the last ten years. It would be interesting to know how much more profitable corporate America would have been if no-one had ever come up with competition for Lotus 123 and Word Perfect.
Which makes me sound, I guess, like a Luddite. But in a way the feature proliferation in Office has destroyed choice (I'm sure this is deliberate) by creating an insuperable bar to new entrants in the WP/SS field through the requirement to interoperate with the Office file formats. If SO or OO are only 90% as good as Office, they probably will not sell regardless of their other merits. What would happen to the world car market if every manufacturer, no matter what else they did, was forced to use Ford engines and transmissions? Hint: it wouldn't be bad for Ford.
It's a pity that governments and ISO don't seem to have been able to get together to develop an international standard for word processing and spreadsheet formats for official business. That might create a more level playing field and encourage a bit more real innovation in the user interface.
Re:Star Office 5.2 (Score:2)
Anyway, yes, I know what you mean about people wasting time with Office. But people will always find a way of wasting time. And there are some pretty clever hacked-together VBA apps in Office, despite Microsoft's obvious attempts to have VBA and Automation go the way of MS Bob. So there are some good things that have come out of it all.
Dok1 (Score:2)
This is a turf war (Score:2, Insightful)
Unlike other OEMs, Microsoft can't push Sony around because Sony is involved in many other lucratice markets.
The Japanese (or indeed, Asian in general) technology maunfactures are getting into OpenSource (or other Microsoft alternatives) wherever they can, particularly with PDAs and embedded systems.
Europe and Australasia are overflowing with FOSS, particularly Linux.
Where is North America? Desktop and low-end server computing there looks to be destined to become like their wireless and mobile markets; stagnant and lagging behind the rest of the world.
This is business (Score:2)
"chique factor" advantages to Sony for supporting StarOffice
Sorry? Chique factor? Sony's PR people must be hiding under the table. Of all the flagships that the Open Source community could choose, this is the one that has the most holes below the waterline.
the essence of this is a tit-for-tat response to Microsoft releasing X-Box.
I really don't think so. Surely it went something like this:
Sony are using Star Office because it is cheap, because it increases their margins and/or reduces their RRP. Star Office is a poor advert for OSS, and Sony are using it for the least noble of all possible reasons. So, while it isn't a bad thing, I think the street parties are premature.
It would be in Sonys interest to back Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Sony is not alone here, IBM is another company in a similiar situation.
I think it would be in both companies interest to subsidize development of Linux desktop systems.
try this (Score:2)
->Print
--->Options
------>Print only selected sheets
I use the shift key to select multiple sheets.
WTF is up with mods these days? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Bullshit. Slower running what? All of those crossplatform apps you tested.
"I've tried KDE and Gnome, several versions, and multiple distros. Slow. Very slow"
No more than XP on that same machine. You want all the eye candy there is a price to pay. Of course you can run XFCE and other lean apps, but why bother with real facts?
"Linux was more stable than Windows 98. It's less so compared to XP in my experience."
Again Bullshit. What is less stable? Oh right why give facts when you can just make things up.
" Time to start talking up the actual benefits of Linux if you want any converts. Better stability is not one of them any more. Speed never was."
Pure trolling. K thx Bye.
The only thing your right about is Star Office on linux is slow. On windows once you enable its quick launch feature, which MS does as well, its plently quick at opening anything.
Again WTF is wrong with the mods these days? This was pure trolling.
Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:5, Informative)
I'll ask you some of the same questions: What about Linux is more stable? Examples, please.
Yes, Linux is very fast on a command line - there's no UI loaded up. But comparing XP to RedHat's BlueCurve on my Athlon XP 1500+ w/ 512MB memory and GeForce 3 Ti500 - running the latest Detonator drivers in Windows, and the latest NVidia drivers in Linux - they're both pretty quick. Yeah, that's not "scientific" - but neither one is *appreciably* slower than the other. MS Office XP is fast. StarOffice is slower, however. Normal usage of the core OS is about the same.
In the early part of your comment, you made a sarcastic comment about "Yeah, all those cross-platform apps you tested." Please, post the information you've got about cross-platform applications.
Well, my Linux side does run the Codeweavers and Transgaming plugins - the plugin versions are fast enough to use, but they *do* slightly lag behind the Windows versions in their "native" environment.
Windows XP - with Windows certified drivers - is very stable. I've had ONE BSOD in 13 months - from a Beta Detonator driver. Since then, not one.
Zealotry will get us nowhere in the halls of Corporate America, the desktops of Mom, Dad, Grandma, and Joe Sixpack. It makes us look like little children who ignore reality because it's our favorite toy.
I like Linux as much as the next geek/wannabe-geek, but I'm objective enough to see where we need to go, not where we imagine we are.
Re:Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:2)
Do you LIKE the idea that you are supporting extremely powerful criminals who want to control you? Even worse, supporting them over those who would offer you choice, for nothing in return?
Even if you are right, things change. Linux is usable, fast and reliable NOW. The more people using it, the more support it will get.
Linux is getting better and better, and even if Windows is too, there can be no doubt that Microsoft, the company, is getting worse and worse. Why support them?
Re:Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:2)
My comment was about the validity of an argument that Linux was superior to Windows without the very evidence the poster was complaining about.
_This very attitude_ - the one you're displaying about "extremely powerful criminals who want to control you!!!!!" is the attitude that immediately turns off the non-geek, non-Linux, non-computer-using public - which makes up about 97% of the world. We are a minority with a passion - in other, less polite circles, we'd be called a cult.
I would personally like to see these attitudes change, and then we can really start to have Linux win on the desktop, and be able to move away from a Microsoft-dominated desktop.
Damn, I think I've been trolled. But I do earnestly believe what I've written.
Re:Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:2)
Why should we just sit down and be quiet about it? Everything I said is true, and if it sounds a bit fantastic, then that's what we're dealing with.
I was always prepared to just think of it in terms purely of convenience. Now, I cannot any longer. With the internet and widespread access to computers, we are on the brink of something wonderful. Instead, I see people trying their hardest to make it illegal, crippled, or both.
One of the worst of these is Microsoft. I can't in good conscience pay money to those behind Palladium.
I think that if people like us, who have some idea what's going on, do nothing, or support it, we will regret it badly in the years to come.
I earnestly believe what I have written as well, and if it offends the "non-geek, non-Linux, non-computer-using public" then perhaps it's time they got offended, because I don't see anyone addressing the issues, and they badly need to be addressed.
Am I wrong on this?
Re:Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:2)
Re:Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:2)
Re:Fighting fire with fire??? (Score:2)
I have been using Linux since 1998 and I cant tell you what the kernel panic screen looks like because I have never seen it. Windows2k is a huge improvement and close in terms of stability but XP is a step backwards. Don't believe me? Go find out which OS engineers and graphics artists use? They prefer Windows2k bigtime.
My point?
My point is you really can't trust microsoft. There codebase is getting more and more bloated by the day. I predict that longhorn will be more unstable then XP and the os after so on.. I know from experience with Microsoft products that putting alot of legacy garbage fucks it up.
Linux has another problem not as much as adding bloat but more of rewritting the kernel after each release. All the kernel versions from 2.0 to 2.5 look like different operating systems whith huge rewrites everywhere. This can be frustrating to many nervous corporate buyers.
To be objective FreeBSD and NetBSD are still slim and code rewrites happen at a very slow pace. Code is just added rather then rewritten. Also daemons like inet and init are not superbloated like there linux counterparts. Xinet is whats keeping linux off older systems. This is what is causing alot of the slowdown you see in Linux.
XP has it too but Microsoft just loaded the OS dlls directly into ram so the system appears to run quicker. Linux should do the same with some modules for a similiar affect if a user wants it enabled.
Re:WTF is up with mods these days? (Score:3, Interesting)
Bullshit. Slower running what? All of those crossplatform apps you tested.
He was probably saying "StarOffice is slower than Microsoft office."
This is a fact. I personally prefer OpenOffice/StarOffice because of it's lack of "I know more than the user" policy, but there is no denying that Microsoft Office is hands down faster at starting and at certain time consuming tasks, like complex scripts and searching large text files. It seems you agree with this statement.
(Honestly I don't think a few seconds loading time makes much difference, but that's me)
"I've tried KDE and Gnome, several versions, and multiple distros. Slow. Very slow"
No more than XP on that same machine. You want all the eye candy there is a price to pay. Of course you can run XFCE and other lean apps, but why bother with real facts?
Linux newbie from Windows:
"This window manager (Blackbox, XFCE, IceWM, etc) sucks! I want something perty like Windows (and with a decent interface and consistant applications)."
Linux guru: "Use GNOME2 or KDE3! They are what you want! They even have more options and power than Windows!"
Linux newbie: "This is great but man is it slow! I was hoping for something faster than Windows. I want something at least as fast!"
Linux guru: "Use Blackbox or XFCE (etc)! They are what you want! They are even faster than Windows 95, nevermind XP!"
Ad infinitum.
"Linux was more stable than Windows 98. It's less so compared to XP in my experience."
Again Bullshit. What is less stable? Oh right why give facts when you can just make things up.
I can't speak for Windows XP, which I hate with a passion, but Windows 2000's applications and GUI are definitely more stable than GNOME2 or KDE3. No question. As far as overall system stability, Linux almost never crashes. Almost. Windows 2000 crashes for me about every other month, usually due to Creative's infamous soundcard drivers.
I would know. I have been working for weeks setting up and tweaking a Linux server to serve Xwindows applications to remote terminals. GNOME2 crashes frequently, but usually only when logging off or running Nautilus. I'd say about twice a weak on light use. KDE3 itself has never crashed for me, but Konqueror and its help system have done so three times each so far, and Konquer has simply frozen once in addition to that. Of course, it is only fair to mention that Internet Explorer seems to me far less stable (but a better actual browser) than Konqueror, but then I use Mozilla on all platforms but OpenVMS, so that doesn't much matter to me.
Fluxbox is stable but simple, and a recent update made it suddenly decide to:
1) Place items in the slit in a large grey box on the lower-right corner of the screen rather than at the top as configured, but ONLY when running remotely over the X protocol
2) Not work at all (GSOD) over TightVNC.
Those complaints about Xbox itself don't really count though, because running a separate user session remotely isn['t even an option with Windows (less the expensive and flaky as hell Terminal Server setup)
That said, Linux desktops crash at least ten times more often for me than Windows 2000 does (which is integrated with its GUI, so when it crashed the whole thing goes down). That is to say, both rarely crash, but Linux GUIS noticeably more. I have tried custom compiling everything with conservative flags with no effect.
You critique the original posters lack of evidence when you yourself offer nothing but that critique. It would probably be best to offer counterevidence rather thanjust be argumentative.
Again WTF is wrong with the mods these days? This was pure trolling.
I was wondering the same thing, but for different posts.
Re:WTF is up with mods these days? (Score:2)
--Ben
Re:WTF is up with mods these days? (Score:2)
Gentoo is wonderful, no?
Re:Children.... (Score:3, Interesting)
But all that aside, you can't say "Linux is 2-5 times slower" based on the performance of OOo in Linux vs MS Word in Windows. MS Word is a really good programme, pure and simple; OOo suffers from terminal bloat and delusions of grandeur. Hell, MS Word under WINE starts up about three times faster than native Linux OOo ...
KDE and GNOME are bad examples too ... if you're looking for speed in a desktop environment, there's much better software out there! (try ROX [slashdot.org] for starters, together with a fast window manager like IceWM or Sawfish)
I've never used XP and so can't comment on its stability. But considering the extreme up-times I've experienced when running a linux box as a desktop computer (and web/file server at the same time) I'd be very surprised if XP is actually better. (IIRC the box crashed a total of three times in ten months continuous running, and we're talking RedHat 6.1 here, not Debian) In the last year of using Mandrake Linux (8.1, then 9.0) as a sole desktop OS, I cannot remember it crashing. Put simply, the underlying OS is very, very stable, and it's getting better, not worse. Now, granted XP may well be as stable, but I can't see how it can be noticably more so ... unless you're confusing OS stability with application stability, which is a completely different issue.
Re:Children.... (Score:2)
LyX would have much more chances on Linux arena if it would get better and out of the box export/import with such formats as RTF, DOC, SXW, HTML. Until that LyX will exist only between enthusiasts.
On the other side, if a hard copy is all you need then LyX is the best word processor. It helps you to think in styles, rather than in sinlge characters. I wish OOo (OpenOffice.org) will improve the style management, which is horrible now in both MS Word and Open/Star Office.
Maybe you're a Troll (Score:5, Informative)
I have noticed that some linux distros are slow due to DHCP problems. I think emacs was the first text editor I ever saw that took time to look up the machine's FQDN and try to match what the DHCP server returned to entries in
It was taking like 3 minutes to start emacs and 5 minutes to start KDE. Other programs were also effected by the mismatched IP addresses. After I did a few tweaks (like 10 mnutes of work), emacs starts instantly and KDE is up in 10~20 seconds. Mozilla and OpenOffice are also very responsive.
AFAIRemember, Star office was really slow because it starts it's own desktop and loads a lot of drivers at startup. OpenOffice seems comprable to MS Office in startup speeds. But try to keep in mind that 90% of the programs you install under windows will add entries to the services tab of the MMC. This alows programs to start lightning fast because they are already mostly in memory.
Try this: On a fresh install of win2k/xp, look at 'msconfig' and the services list. Then install Office, Kazaa, Visio, Winamp, MusicMatch, etc... Then go back and look at the service list agian. Winamp and MusicMatch are very open about running in the background. Office and Kazaa use services to be sneaky. But don't be fooled, they are still running all the time. Slowly eating your memory.
To be fair, Mozilla and OpenOffice under Win32 use entries in 'msconfig' (i.e., your taskbar gets bigger) to speed up load times, but both programs tell you this at install time. They have to do this in order to have the appearance of speed comparable to MS IE and MS Office.
Oh, one more KDE tip: Make sure the 'fam' daemon is running before you start KDE. Somehow, the fam daemon indexes files needed by KDE in order to speed it up.
Linux is just barely catching up with Windows 3.1 (Score:2)
Printing is still a little flaky under Linux, most apps try for Postscript, and you had better hope you have everything configured properly. There are still heaps of problems rendering fonts consistently on the printer and on the screen, but those are being addressed.
Last I checked, Abiword still hasn't quite gotten that font issue sorted out, which still puts it a bit behind MS Write, neither do footnotes, so both apps are out of the question for students taking any arts courses.
OpenOffice also has some ugly fonts, but some people have figured out how to make them look pretty. I don't know how well it prints on their machines though.
Adding and removing fonts can be done graphically, which is something I've read that Linux can do recently. I don't think it is in Debian stable though. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Windows 3.1 seems to have the sound thing figured out. Yeah you need to load a DOS driver to get your DOS applications to recognise your card, but the Windows apps don't seem to have any problem figuring out OSS vs. ALSA vs. esd.
MS Office works well on Windows 3.1, as does Internet Explorer. The versions are a little old, but they're easier to use and more version-compatible with modern versions of MS Office than anything on Linux. The dialer is dead easy to set up with IE too.
The desktop metaphor is poor on Win3.1. But then it is probably easier to figure out the Program Manager and alt-tab than it is to figure out any given Linux setup.
The file manager is pretty slick. It's not consistent with the other apps, but the same can be said for any given file manager on Linux.
The Win3.1 clipboard is to die for. It beats Linux hands-down. OLE was a bad idea, but working with grapics and text throughout dissimilar applications and in just about any application or dialogue box is dead easy. Printscreen and Alt-printscreen is a nice touch too.
On the other hand, Win3.1 can't multitask for its life, won't do 3d, has trouble with unstable applications taking down the OS, hits resource limitations if you get the colour depth too high, has a big DLL hell issue... but then what do you expect for an OS designed 10 years ago for 1/10th of the hardware.
Still, Linux is getting there... soon it will be better than Windows 3.1 on hardware 10 to 20 times as large and fast.
Real soon now...
OO vs. SO (Score:2)
Re:Compared to MS Office (Score:2)
With regard to Outlook, have you tried Evolution? I know it is a clone but it is a good clone. I use it and like it but I only started using it because I want Outlook compatability on Linux.
Re:people actually use sony PCs??? Troll? (Score:2)
And of the ten on one the networks I manage remotely. I never really had any problems with them.
I can't beleive you have not ever seen one in the shop? They are a bit proprietary but well made. A decent store bought. Much better than an HP or Compaq. Have seen plenty of those.
Sony also makes a pretty sweet laptop, an they also hold up well.
Unless you live in a really rural area, this surprises me. Or the quality is good. One or the other.
Puto
Meaningless...like your post? (Score:2)
And lest we all miss the meaning behind such razor sharp prescience, let it be known that in this case, someone has been given the gift of education for the upcoming Christmas holiday. Let us all hope this quick witted AC unwraps it before his/her next post.
Happy Holidays!!!
Re:This doesn't make sense. (Score:2)