Microsoft Shuts Down Lik Sang 814
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has taken legal action, shutting down popular import gaming site Lik Sang for distributing X-box mod chips. Lik Sang is a popular import gaming site based out of Hong Kong. The full article (MSNBC) can be found here." Several people have pointed to the same story on news.com.
Abuse of power? (Score:3, Insightful)
It just goes to show you how abusive MS is, as if you needed any more evidence.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
Yes, but Lik-Sang was selling the chip in jurisdictions where it was illegal.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not so much that MS is abusive, more that the laws are easily abused.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not so sure about this. Lik Sang was basically a stripped down, overpriced, web version of the stuff you can buy at a place in Hong Kong called the Golden Center (in Sham Shui Po, Kowloon). The Golden Center is this run down, crappy building full of mostly small shops that sell everything from "legit" electronics and software, to rom copiers, modchips, "pirated" software, etc. etc. Well, see... these guys get busted *all* the time. When I lived out there in the 80s and early-mid 90s there were weekly raids on shops there (a lot of this was started my Microsoft even back then, especially when Bill Gates went out to give some talk at HKUST or something). So the HK cops come in and seize a bunch of stuff, and the shop gets closed. Well, a week later there's another shop there run by some other guy, selling the same stuff. The guys who got busted open up another shop maybe on the other side of the Golden Center with a different name and are back in business in maybe two weeks.
I used to go to this one guy who was busted like 20 times when I lived there. The shop name was something like "Wong's Brother", then "Wong's", then "Wong Import Export Ltd", then "Wong's Little Brother" etc. Now here's the cool part. Most of these shops don't keep all their stock in the shop or in one place. So even if they seize a store full, they still have a lot of their goods on hand elsewhere. Anyway...the point is is that this stuff is illegal in HK, but it's impossible to enforce it. Rest assured, Lik Sang freaks...Lik Sang will be back but maybe called something else.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2, Insightful)
Tom
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:3, Insightful)
How is anyone "forcing" Microsoft to do anything?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
Time to fold up your trestle table and go home.
Right...and the fact that Nintendo has run with this business strategy for close to 25 years now and has more $ in the bank than you could ever imagine is just a fluke?
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm starting to think that few people commenting on Slashdot have any idea how economics works.
Playstation 2 drops price, GameCube drops price, suddenly XBOX is the expensive guy on the block. MS was forced to drop price to keep up. It's called competition.
I can't wait to hear the next illogical argument. "well MS didn't have to drop their price. They just did it because they want to piss people off!"
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you build a product that is more expensive than a similar one from a competitor, expect people to buy the cheaper one. If you can't make yours cheaper, don't expect regulation to help you make up the cost difference. There is no inherent right to make profit in a capitalist system-- if you can't get your production costs down as low as your competitors, you will be priced right out of the market. This happens all the time.
Why should microsoft be able to sell things at a loss with profits ensured by law, while their competitors are capable of making a profit on the hardware even at lower price points? (Nintendo is making a profit on the gamecube at $150)
But I digress. All of this is nearly irrelevant in the first place-- mod chips are no more illegal than guns. Just because they can be used illegally does not make them intrinsically illegal. (Unless they contain copyrighted code by MS!!) Whether or not MS has to lower their prices below cost to keep up with their competition's superior designs has no bearing on whether or not modchips are legal.
Re:Was M$ forced to design an expensive box? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are correct, sir.
I do not know if the modchips contain copyrighted MS code. I suspect some do and some don't depending on the method used.
If they do not, however, NO ONE is reselling copyrighted materials.
Your example is slightly incorrect, too. There is no difference between what a reseller of mod-chipped xboxes is doing, and a reseller of modified cars, except that only an idiot would sell the reseller a car at a loss. How can you claim that "Company A" is keeping "all the profits?" when "Company B" has no profit to start with? If "Company B" has a poorly designed product that they can't manufacture at a low enough cost to keep up with their competition AND make a profit, why should the courts enforce their profits? Is it illegal to buy an xbox and then just leave it sitting around? Hardly. Yet that leaves MS in exactly the same money-losing situation as putting a mod chip in and using it for legal purposes.
Pirating games is illegal. Building a modchip containing modified MS XBox BIOS code is illegal. Building a modchip that contains no MS code and using it to play a European game or make backups of your games is legal.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
If it's illegal, yes, you can do that. But if that place, and the thing it does, are legal, then no, you can not shut it down just because it threatens your profits! That would be like British Airways asking for EasyJet to shut down. WTF is with you guys? Nobody can guarantee a company that it will make money in the infinite future, no matter how big the company is. But people, expecially in USA, seem to live under the assumption that profit is a God-given right and nobody may ever threaten that.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm still unclear how MS can prevent products being sold to modify an item which they no longer own (the Xbox sold to the consumer). What is next? Will auto companies begin sueing parts manufacturers because they think those big tail fins make their cars look stupid, or because a product improves a car and makes it last longer, preventing a future sale, or what about vegetable oil conversion kits for diesel powered cars? I believe MS is being abusive.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
That's only the kind of thing a corporation like Microsoft can pull with billions to burn and no comprehension that the laws of market dynamics really -do- apply to them.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2, Informative)
When I purchase a console, I don't enter into any contract with the manufactorer of the console to purchase games. Maybe I really only wanted 1 game that was out on the console, maybe 2. Should I now get sued by the console maker because I didn't by 4 and allow them to make a profit? Where is it written that because I am selling a product at a loss to attempt to gain market share, or because the market demands it, that I should expect that people are going to purchase enough games to make up for this loss?
You can't tell me that MS couldn't see this coming. They did, and now they are attempting to forestall it, but they won't be able to. And seriously, why all this effort for what should be a relatively small portion of your total sales? Most people who buy consoles don't buy it with the intention of modding it, they buy it with the intention of playing games.
And if the majority of their customers are now purchasing the XBox to mod and use as a computer, I would say that speaks more to the quality/availability of games for the console, rather than the actions of a few modders.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
Following that logic, Sony, Nintendo, and Gillette would not be in business today.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact the whole reason why I bought my GBA was because I wanted to program it.."
I believe the product was called 'Flash Linker', and yes Nintendo was very aggressive about getting it shut down.
Sony's done similar stuff against mod chips.
Frankly, the only reason this is of interest to Slashdot is because it's bent out of shape until it looks like MS is being an aggressive bully.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:3, Insightful)
Look at this current action by Microsoft. The XBox is the test system for a secure PC that only runs Microsoft code.
Palladium's only reason for existince (I believe) is to be used to prevent any OS (or application for that matter) to not run without Microsofts consent. It will undoubtedly be the most evil thing Microsoft will ever do and failure to respond to issues like this will only help them achieve there goals.
Tell everyone you know not to buy an XBox.
The real difference here between MS and the other console manufacturers is that Microsoft is hellbent on bringing this kind of crap to your PC. Palladium must fail.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
Nope, you're both wrong. Playstation 2, for example, sold at a $100 loss in Japan. This is actually quite a common thing in the game industry. The original Playstation was sold at a loss as well.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:2)
Another stupid fucking
1) Alarm company offers free house alarm system, must sign up for 1 year monitoring contract
2) Cell phone company offers free cell phone. Must sign up for one year plan
3) i-opener offers low cost internet device, must sign up for their ISP plan.
Those are just a few examples.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:4, Insightful)
The PS2 lost money initially and so did the Gamecube. Granted, the XBox is losing money a littler longer then the other two, but it's still very typical for the industry.
But none of this really matters. The fundamental point is that money for console systems has always been made off the royalties off the games, not the hardware. Sony is just as aggressive against piracy devices as MS is.
Re:Abuse of power? (Score:3, Informative)
And no, it's not poorly engineered. It's not well engineered either. It's a PC. It works for what they needed it to do.
The PS2 is well-engineered, despite being difficult to program. The Gamecube is a feat of engineering. A suffuciently powerful, cheap to produce, tiny package that plays good games.
--Jeremy
Score one for Tha Man (Score:5, Interesting)
Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market. Cracking down on this will drive Microsofts target audience away. Perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot with this.
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:3, Insightful)
I think Microsoft's recent increase in agression is a sign that they think so too.
I leave it up to you whether that is a good thing or not.
DOJ antitrust chief resigns (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd agree with this comment except MS needs to sell 4 games to make up for the loss they take on each system. If people buy XBOXes but don't buy games for them (i.e. they buy them to install Linux on so they can tap tap tap at it all day), then MS doesn't want their business. They lose.
If MS believed that purchase of an XBOX because it has a mod chip would also mean sales of games, I'm sure they'd go for it. I can certainly understand their concern though, since their lineup of games isn't very strong right now.
In other words, there isn't much value in the games today, but they need to move the games in order for this whole venture to be worthwhile.
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:3, Insightful)
Value adds are the features inherant to the system as designed. It just so happens that the xbox is a very "value added" system inherantly.
DVD, 5.1 Dolby Digital, Hard Disk, 4 Controllers, Ethernet, Fast Video, 64 megs of ram, HDTV support and many other XBOX features give it VALUE over other competing products and make it wanted and valued by many.
The devaluation is at the software and game level. Is Developer X going to spend 5 million making a game that can be pirated with ease because someone can goto lik-sang.com and get a modchip? NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Microsoft is protecting the value of the millions of units sold. Microsoft is protecting the rights of the licensees, distributors, developers and contributors of the xbox.
What is the value of hacking a system to use it for purposes of which it isn't intended or designed for and why can't microsoft legally fight to protect its intended and protected interests?
Even though i modded my dreamcast and could play pirated games, i didn't consider this a value add. For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort and for pirated games they were ripped, chunked, slow and missing features.
After my experimentation with "mod chips" it just wasn't worth it, and personally i see the value in the xbox of being a superb platform to begin with so i'm anxiously waiting to buy the excellent games that will come out.
As for liksang, i'm sure they were doing other things to get shutdown and i'm sure Sony, Sega and Nintendo have always wished they had to balls or $$$$ to do it themselves....
it was the "value add" of the modchips and ripped DC games that ended the life of that console. (and the ps2.. but sega cited the loss of software sales because of rampant piracy and loss of developers because of rampant piracy to be a big factor)
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:3, Insightful)
To use it for purposes of which it isn't intended, obviously. Why ask the question when you have the answer in your question?
Because once they sell you the product, they have no legal rights to it anymore. BTW, what's a "protected" interest? That means nothing to me. I'm currently using an old Western Digital hard drive as a doorstop -- does that mean WD has the right to come and force me legally to not use their product in this unintended way?
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:5, Insightful)
Selling Xbox mod chips is *exactly* like having a set of lockpicking equipment. Locks are meant to keep people out of areas they don't belong in; same goes for the 'security hardware' on the Xbox. You don't see the 5-0 arresting those guys that come and get your keys out of your locked car, do you?
Microsoft basically is using it's influence to crush out of existence what they don't like. Gee, who'd have thought they'd do that.
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:5, Informative)
If you thing Sony and Nintendo didn't have the cash to shutdown Lik-Sang, well, there's a second reason for me to think you're an idiot. They didn't shutdown Lik-Sang because they realized people don't like soldering crap to their expensive consoles, and there really wasn't a big effect on piracy here. Microsoft just went after them because they're obstinate bastards who want to defeat the linux xbox hackers at all cost. Both the hackers and Microsoft are motivated by ideology--linux on Xbox is without value to hackers and without cost to Microsoft--hell, Sony even sells linux kits to encourage people to develop ps2 development skills.
Yeah, modchips sure ruined the life of PS2 and PS1 ... probably the most successful consoles ever.
Bottom line, the hardware belongs to however buys it, not whoever sells it. That's what "buying stuff" means.
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:3, Informative)
WalMart [walmart.com]. Where else?
if it makes you feel better, i don't need any mods (Score:3, Informative)
Okay, I stand corrected.
You can think whatever you want. These companies have vastly less R&D money and legal funding then Microsoft Does. Like i said in my original statements Nintendo chose an uncommon media format, and Sony chose to sell a linux kit. Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support. That my friend, is idiotic.
I didn't say they supported it, I said they didn't bother shutting down Lik-Sang. They did the math, and it wasn't rational to expend an iota of effort to shut them down. I don't know the exact sizes of the companies involved here (I suspect Sony is way larger than you think...) but for Sony or Nintendo crushing Lik-Sang would be absolutely nothing (just as it was to Microsoft).
Wait, are you now saying companies are idiotic for not extending warranty coverage to modded hardware?
Yeah, successfull doen't mean there the best. Ford Focus's are a top seller, but they still suck ass. Porches and Ferraris are kick ass cars and don't sell very many, but that doesn't make them less valuable then the pintos and station wagons.
What, are you a NeoGeo fan, or something? Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not a big playstation fan, but what the fuck does the quality of the console have to do with the impact of modchipping? They sold the most units, they had the most games and the only way modchipping would hurt is if developers refused to write software--instead developer support for sony systems was and is incredible.
It has NOTHING to do with LINUX. Absolutely NOTHING.
You offered no reason why it has nothing to do with Linux, and I offered a whole lot why it has nothing to do with stealing games (how many consumers do you think go at their hardware with a soldering iron?) I'm not saying Linux on xbox would REALLY hurt Microsoft, but just listen to Ballmer--those guys REALLY HATE LINUX. I mean, think--we Slashdot people get all upset about it when most of us are browsing here with Explorer. Imagine how much more pissed you'd be if it was your JOB. Imagine if some long-haired hippies called you a thief as they tried to limit your ability to put food on your families table (from their perspective). They can't stand having the enemy's flag on their flagship, ever.
Whatever, tell that to sony when you copy their dvd's, tell that to the RIAA when your trading pirated MP3's.. Just because you "CAN" doesn't mean microsoft should let it slide. You can own a gun, but they're not meant to shoot people. Do you think owning a gun means you can do anything you want with it? Does owning your dvd mean you can now sell copies of it because you can?
Obviously, intellectual property and firearms are special cases--there are special LAWS (chosen by the GOVERNMENT, not the manufactuer) restricting my usage of those things.
Does owning your dvd player mean you can modify it to play other region dvd's and copied movies? Hardware, like a video game console, like a dvd player, is MINE. Only the government restricts my use of it. I apologize for calling you an idiot when I screwed up so badly regarding the Dreamcast, but lets just say greater thought would have saved you from a few mistakes you've posted today.
Why would they want to allow you to change the way there product operates when you choose to mod the thing and electricute yourself or break the thing in the process?
Holy disingenuous, Batman! Yeah, THAT's why they shutdown Lik-Sang, to prevent electrocutions they would in no way every be held responsible for. Better make all electrical tools illegal for non-engineers!
Re:Score one for Tha Man (Score:5, Insightful)
For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort
Well, guess what, I can't read Japanese either, but I have enjoyed many games from that country on my modded PS2 such as Sexy Parodius, Twinbee Deluxe Pack, Salamander Deluxe Pack, Gradius Gaiden. I also just happened to purchase Ikaruga for my Dreamcast. These are all shooters - and there is no language barrier for pure twitch action like that.
Konami's games have always been popular here, but we didn't get any of those. So I adapted my system so that it would do what I wanted it to do. I see no harm in that, and there is not a thing about it that breaks any law aside from (possibly) the DMCA additions to US Copyright Law.
You know why people have to import? Because the console manufacturers maintain a tight reign on what is published on their console. They are able to do so because it is nigh impossible to create working distributable software without their permission, and even if you could, you could possibly be in violation of patents or sued under the DMCA (for bypassing methods of protection).
What it boils down to is that certain companies are not allowed to translate their games onto U.S. systems, even if they are willing to spend the money, because the hardware manufacturer is afraid that that title will make their system look bad. That's bullshit. Take a look at the PS2 as a great example - modchips appeared within a small number of months of the console's release allowing pirate games to be played, but NO ONE made a chip allowing imports until this year! It was a much more difficult process... Now why is that?
I want to play the games I want to play. If I am not able to do so, I will pass the console by, plain and simple.
Remember the Xbox upgrade article. (Score:3, Insightful)
Many people yelled that it was just an upgrande and M$ was not telling me what to do with **MY** hardware. Well bite me, I knew M$ would prove me right.
I dont own an X-box, I dont own a mod chip, but M$ continues with the attitude that you will use this the way we want you to use this, you will not dieveate at all from our buisness plan or we will label you a pirate and sue your sorry butt..
Re:Remember the Xbox upgrade article. (Score:3, Insightful)
Instead of just blaming Microsoft (the easy way), why not blame the other console corps as well? Blaming MS might be easy, but in console-country they aren't the only ones trying to keep hackers away from their so-called IP.
*note: I hate Microsoft like the next guy. I have a MS free zone at home.
PS: the M$ thing is old, give it a rest. I'm serious. Stop that. You will be taken more seriously if you refer to things by their real names/abbreviations. The Co$ is of course the exception of the rule. :)
Re:Remember the Xbox upgrade article. (Score:2)
The personal property cry is not 'childish' If I use my property in a legal way, to do legal things on Ihave every right. There are few rights more fundimental than property.
m$ofty (Score:3, Funny)
Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft has to realize, that if they want to prevent people from hacking their systems, or OS or whatever, they need to ensure that it is more secure, instead of doing something as stupid as shutting down a site. I could just go on IRC and find a new place to get some chips, if I wanted. Oh, and those chips, once the hardware is flashed, you can take them out and give them to the next person anyways.
Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)
This is on the simple principle that you buy it you own it that applies to all hardware. So how can MS sue a HK company? I am not sure but it might be similar in reasoning to this.
In holland we can only get our drivers license for car and motor cycles at 18. However at 16 you are allowed to start driving a moped. Basiclly a motor limited to 50cc displacement.
It is illegal to sell a moped with more then 50cc displacement and in fact all mopeds are limited when they are imported to further reduce the power. Now the odd thing is that it is illegal to sell the mopeds with this reducement removed. Yet I got mine years ago straight from the shop without the reducer. They just didn't sell me it without it. They just removed it after the sale had been completed. Considering that I have been stopped and checked by the police it is not illegal to drive a moped without the reducer as well.
Odder still are upgrade kits designed to up the displacement. You may not sell them as kits or install them as kits. But the parts can be sold.
How this does all relate to X-box vs lik-sang. I think MS has taken it for granted that people will mod their boxen. This has always been done but by such a small number that they basically don't give a damn. Lik-sang however makes this modding way to easy and profits from it as well. Just as the police didn't arrest me for having a moped wich could go a little bit faster then intended but does go up against people who openly break the law.
Guys running linux on x-box ain't a threat. lik-sang is. I just find it odd that lik-sang even bothered if they can be shutdown this easily. Surely there is more money selling that light for the GBA?
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Where in the hell is it written that I can't build a device to alter the behavior of an X-box and then sell that device? What law are you referring to?
More to the point, should this be a law? I can sell hardware to modify the behavior of my car, of my blender, of my computer even, but somehow that's not right when it's a game console?
Seems like (Score:2)
Besides what has Microsoft got to loose, I mean the people who installed the modchip are using it so they can use Linux on it.
Oh
We would want any friendly competition now would we, even on Microsoft proprietary products.
Medevo
People using modchip to RIP games and movies. (Score:2, Informative)
XBox is destroying the console industry.
Re:People using modchip to RIP games and movies. (Score:2)
Medevo
I am not surprised... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I am not surprised... (Score:2)
That spelling is a very typical slashdot spelling [penny-arcade.com] of MicroSoft.
Re:I am not surprised... (Score:4, Informative)
XBox Plus Pack (Score:3, Funny)
The real goal: MS produces their own Mod chip that only allows you to install WinXP and with a complementary copy of a new improved MS BOB.
Linux installs are automatically reformated.
Why else would they be looking to hire mod chippers and shut down comptetitors?
$profit!Cute (Score:2)
Lik Sang = Hong Kong. Hong Kong = China. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Lik Sang = Hong Kong. Hong Kong = China. (Score:2)
Re:Lik Sang = Hong Kong. Hong Kong = China. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lik Sang = Hong Kong. Hong Kong = China. (Score:2)
And, regarding the equations in the subject, it's more like, Hong Kong ~= China. China's still a totalitarian nation, although no longer quite a dictatorship. And the government is Communist, very strong on regulation, and not much on individual liberties. Communism doesn't just oppose the idea of Intellectual Property, it opposes all concepts of Individual Property.
And then there's Hong Kong. Very strong capitalist economy under British rule. Since the Chinese took control, Beijing's been trying a one-government-two-systems approach, which has sorta-kinda-maybe-not-really worked. The national government is continually pushing regulations, and the local folks in Hong Kong, highly accustomed to running their own show, are continually chafing at those regulations.
So, the Chinese government could decide it's not in their interest to step in on this 'Hong Kong' issue, not worthy of their attention. Or they could decide that this guy's overstepped his bounds, and try to have him shut down. (I doubt this would go over well with other Hong Kong business owners, but public opinion has never been something they've been extremely sensitive about.) Or, they could decide that they don't want the Westerners from Microsoft poking their noses in.
Very, very tough to say.
Legal action? Or monetary action? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm... Did MS use real legal action to shut them down, even when they were outside the US? Or is there some "monetary action" going on here...
Legality.... (Score:5, Funny)
add architecture
without the borg's consent?
enlist the lawyers.
\haiku
Re:Legality.... (Score:2)
zoning makes me mad
how can i play cool imports
do i have to move?
\haiku2
Follow the money (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:Follow the money (Score:3, Insightful)
And screw sony too. Anyone that own's one of their DVD players knows about the infamous C:13 error that you get after about a year of usage. Thousands of consumers have this problem and Sony's only answer is to fix it for a mere 179 bucks.
If you're having the problem, you can try to fix it here [ben-morris.net]
you sure about that? (Score:3, Informative)
that doesnt read like they are somebody who "allows mod chips"
I really hope this is overturned. (Score:2)
Unless there was a market force demanding it, they wouldn't sell well enough that people would keep buying them. See also region free DVD players. They're just as popular now as ever, because people want the freedom in their products.
And that doesn't take into account the fact that once I buy something, it's mine. I own it, I do with it as I please. If I want to rip the top off my Xbox, shit in it, and then grow a plant out of that moist, fertile soil -- that's my business. Microsoft has as much business stopping the sales of mod chips as they do teaching mothers how to breastfeed.
How complicated are mod-chips? (Score:2)
Of course, in a business sense this is a really bad idea, as it just creates competition. But in a hardware-modders right-to-change-my-property, fight the machine sense it would be nice.
Well, there's always... (Score:5, Informative)
For now, at least.
Note: I have no affiliation with LikSang, or EasyBuy - they're just pretty similar. LikSang had a larger variety of video-game oriented products, but EasyBuy has most of the more popular modchips as well.
This is not a shot at the end user (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This is not a shot at the end user (Score:3, Insightful)
What right does MS have in preventing people from selling after-market mods
Re:This is not a shot at the end user (Score:2)
Re:This is not a shot at the end user (Score:2)
In the same way, Microsoft is trying to stop piracy of games and hacking that could potentially spill over into its XBox Live service. They want to make that as secure as possible to prevent abuse of the system and other users, and stomping on commercialized hacking ventures is probably their way of sending out a message. Again, this does not stop you from opening up your xbox and replacing its OS with Linux, or sticking a fishtank in it. You bought it, its yours.
Re:This is not a shot at the end user (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This is not a shot at the end user (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm curious why you think MS has a right to stop a legitimate business from trying to turn a profit.
Mod chips are, protests to the contrary, legal. The only ground MS might have to contest them on would be through the DMCA, as a chip could be used to run a pirated copy of a game. However, the DMCA also makes allowances for circumvention with "significant non-infringing uses", which a mod chip certainly has (seeing as how many people here want to run Linux on it). Of course, the law only supports consumers as far as they're willing to pay their lawyers.
MS didn't license the Xbox to anyone, as anyone who owns one will tell you. People bought it outright, they can do whatever they want to it. People can sell hardware, software, instructions, whatever they want to help people modify their box.
Some people have taken the opinion that MS is only attacking those things which might threaten their profitability (such as giving people the ability to write/distribute their own, unsigned games). Okay, then why don't they go after aftermarket controller manufacturers, since they obviously compete with MS controllers?
This whole thing really irks me, and I'm not sure what bothers me more -- them getting away with it, or people believeing that MS has some kind of right to protect their flawed business model. Okay, maybe MS isn't making much money on hardware (as we all seem to believe). And we then assume they make that money back in development fees. So? I don't recall signing a piece of paper, when I bought my Xbox, that said I'd support Microsoft's business plan. Their plan is their own business. Lik Sang's business plan is, similarly, their business, and no one else's. They saw a need, and filled it. Sure, it's possible that mod chips might cut into a small fraction of game sales. Again, that's not my problem.
If chipping cuts into a significant fraction of sales, and people stop making games, and the platform dies, then, well, that is my problem, and I'll be disappointed. O h, well, too bad, maybe next time. I'll still have gotten my $300 worth of fun out of the box. But, again, that's how the market works.
This is capitalism at its best.
I find it ironic that it's China that has the strongest support of capitalism, and the US that has the strongest implicit government support of illegal monopolies.
I'm just curious... (Score:2)
Corporate Slogans (Score:5, Funny)
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Who the Fsck do these people think they are!? (Score:2)
That tosser Gates has a lot to answer for. Every day that goes by he's responsible for some crap that goes on in the world. He'll burn in hell for sure.
Except I'm an athiest so I don't believe in all that heaven/hell/god crap. Maybe I'll become a born-again-christian the day the guy drops dead, just so I can believe for a day the bloke gets some retribution.
Re:Who the Fsck do these people think they are!? (Score:3, Insightful)
Probably... (Score:2)
mod chip not only useful for playing pirated games (Score:5, Insightful)
The article insinuates that the justification for sutting down this distributor is contributory infringement, based on the false premise that the device it distributes is unlawful. This is bullsh*t. If the mod chip's only use were the facilitation of software piracy, they might have a legal case; however, as of today (and the article acknowledges this) the mod chip makes running Linux on the Xbox possible, and running Linux is a significant non-infringing use of the mod chip, so the mod chip cannot be deemed illegal on the grounds that it can be used to run pirated games. I will never own an Xbox, much less bother to mod one, but Microsoft's attitude is really ticking me off. Check this out, Bill: you can't tell people what to do with "your" console once you've sold it to them.
So what exactly is the legal issue? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm curious as to what the exact legal basis for this action is.
As use of a product to break a law is to be more of a Federal interest than a corporate unless profits are involved. Which and whose profits are threatened by the mods?
More importantly, how will this carry over to modifying any other consumer hardware? Will it be illegal someday to use after-market parts on your car? (One co-worker of mine who specializes in performance tuning tells me that messing with chipsets in most sports cars invalidates all warrenties.)
An objection to mods on the basis that it allows illegal activity is like objecting to a rifle because it allows illegal activity. Heck, a garbage disposal can be used to hide evidence of misdoing. Why not make them illegal as well?
I think there's a problem when enforcement of laws is used to prevent potential crimes and shut down the producer of potential problem goods. Yea, so a lot of mod chips will be used for piracy: go after the pirates. Others will produce interesting experiments like Linux on xbox. Yes, the manufacturer has to be aware of how the product will be used, but Phillip Morris and Winston-Salem blatently *advertise* product that cause even more expensive long-term health problems.
But that's okay, so long as it doesn't infringe on profits of other conglomerate interests such as m$ or the RIAA.
You're kidding, right? (Score:2)
Please show me the #s. I seriously doubt that the vast majority of console buyers have even heard of mod-chips, let alone are interested in getting one.
Consoles are commodity items purchased by people that aren't geeks, haven't read Slashdot, and probably don't have 3 Linux boxes in their home office.
The infinitesimal percentage of XBOX owners that also purchased a mod chip doesn't come close to making a mod chip a "value add" for the console(ignoring your incorrect useage of that term).
Nintendo v Lik Sang (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps the same type of thing could happen with MSFT.
Though I wonder if the mod in question, the PC-BIOXX/OpenXbox, counts as illegal. It is, in essence, a blank flashROM.
You attach it to the xbox, and completely replace the xbox' bios with whatever you flash to the chip. So it could be used to run a hacked xbox bios that plays pirated code, it could be used to run the linux bios, or it could be used to run the retail bios (if the one on the mobo got fried).
You could even use it on a PC mobo just as easily, if you wanted to play BIOS hacker. It's just a plain-vanilla 2mbit flashrom for the LPC header.
I mean, is the device itself illegal just because it has some illegal use?
Re:Nintendo v Lik Sang (Score:3, Informative)
The Bung GB-Xchanger was one product they refused to ship to North America, the Dr. 64 N64 backup devices were another.
Bung didn't die btw, they just changed their name.
More B.S. from Bill... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, these modchips facilitate piracy. But they also have legitimate uses on every console they exist for. Not to mention that people should be able to use the modchip for "copied" games so long as those are backup copies.
Lik Sang offered plenty of legitimate products for people who enjoy modding their consoles, tinkering, homebrew developmenet, etc. Of course, Microsoft doesn't want people to tinker and mod for ANY reason, because this undermines the next step in MS's business plan.
Microsoft is trying very hard to establish a sense that you don't own your X-Box, but they do. With Palladium, they are going to extend that idea to the PC... you don't own your computer... MS does.
Microsoft is going to use their money and power to take out any companies like Lik Sang in the future that give people the ability to mod their X-Box, or mod their PC's hardware after Palladium is released.
For chrisssakes. (Score:5, Insightful)
All of you saying Microsoft has the right to do this:
Are you all complete and utter retards? Does this really have to be explained to you anew each time something actions such as this (Not necessarily by Microsoft) has been taken?
Let's try again, slowly for those of you who can't understand it.
1) Although there aren't enough details available (That I've seen) to judge this particular instance, virtually every time a purveyor of products that let you change what you've legally purchased to do something else gets shut down it is NOT with actual legal action, it is with the THREAT of legal action. The sickening fact of all this isn't whether or not these entities are within their legal right to do this, but that the question is never asked. Lawsuits are so onerous that the mere threat of one is sufficient to stop what MAY BE legal. The crucial legal court test NEVER OCCURS.
2) The 'slippery slope', while being largely a strawman argument, in cases like this is perhaps valid. If you don't think ANY hardware company is absolutely DROOLING at the prospect of extending it's reach far beyond the change of posession (purchase) of a product you're living in a fantasy world. Precendents such as this will of course start with a basis in what are apparently legal and moral positions, right now in the name of stopping piracy, but there is absolutely no reason to stop there. Once you've established the precedent of extending so-called 'rights' beyond the customer taking posession of your product you have infintely more control over what they can and cannot do, spanning legal and illegal uses.
3) The fact that devices such as mod chips (And P2P networks, for that matter) have both legitimate and illegitimate uses is not just a side argument. It is important to realize that many freedoms enjoyed by Americans (And for that matter, citizens of many other countries) are freedoms that could be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes. Drawing comparisons between the use of mod chips and free speech is more than just hyperbole, it is an attempt to illustrate that once you start allowing the restriction of something based on it's (in this case potentially) illegal uses you are setting a very dangerous precedent, and one that because of the DMCA has criminal and not just civil ramifications.
The DMCA is the bridge between a civil lawsuit brought by Microsoft and someone going to jail for making or using something that could be used to violate IP 'rights'. If you still don't believe me, ask yourself why they need the DMCA then? Why was it necessary for the government to enact legislation that allows companies and the government to take punitive actions against those who violate IP, or more accurately those who MAKE things that COULD be used to violate IP, rather than stick with civil proceedings? (Even the threat of which, I might add, seem to work just fine.) In other words, if you're going to say no one's going to get sent to jail for this, why is there a law that says you will? Do you honestly think that mod chip makers should go to jail?
4) Microsoft's choice to sell their products (X-box) at a loss does not automatically give them the legal right to take any and all action they see fit to try and make money through other means, in this case through game licenses. It's been said time and again but you still don't seem to get it, just because somebody WANTS to make money doesn't mean they GET to. It's very possible that their choice to try and pursue this method of profit is foolish and could result in failure due to the boxes being modded for uses besides purchasing the products they do make money on, but because of point (1) we may never know. By using the threat of legal action they may have secured a business model that is unavailable to other companies without as deep pockets. Do you think Microsoft would have succeeded in beating down Lik Sang if Microsoft were a small startup? (Not that X-box's major competitors, such as Sony, are small startups.) No. They can do this because of point (1), and because other companies realize the law being on their side (perhaps) is a moot point. In this case, Might Makes Right.
I hope this explains a bit to those of you comparing modding your X-Box to rolling your odometer back on your car (boggle) or simply accusing posters of being Microsoft/other large coporate entity bashers. It IS about essential rights, albeit indirectly, whether you choose to believe ir ot not.
Unauthorized ?!# (Score:5, Insightful)
Unauthorized by who?
Why Microsoft does this - Lost in the noise (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, MS could care less about someone making money doing this. What they really care about is what this enables. A commercial outfit, manufacturing and selling components *enables* virtually all people to purchase xboxes with the *intent* of using them for alternate purposes. If they leave hack-shops unchecked for long, they have basically allowed a competing market to develop against what they really want to sell - games and service.
If I want to purchase an xbox because I want to mod it AND I know I can just buy a chip online with ease, Microsoft would rather not sell me the xbox in the first place. Since they can't discriminate against buyers, they can make it more difficult for me to purchase a chip. Microsoft is not targetting the hardcore hackers. If you want to hack an xbox that badly and you have the skills, you'll do it. Who they *are* targetting is the average Joe Sixpack who buys an xbox. If he buys it and later sees he can easily purchase and install a mod to do things like play pirated games or run a webserver, Microsoft has just lost marketshare in the market that counts.
THAT's what they are trying to stop. Not hacking, but the widespread usage of manufactured mods by average users.
Microsoft's evil, blah blah blah... (Score:3, Informative)
BS. Plain and simple.
This is STANDARD industry practice. Do some research before you start going off on a big rant about how evil MS is. (Which may be true, but not because of this. lol)
Sony has sued or threatened to sue just about EVERY SINGLE mod-chip maker and retailer during the last year. They have threatened and/or sued installers and resellers of mod chips, as well as sued the mod chip makers into the ground multiple times.
Nintendo isn't much better. But Sony has been hyper-aggresive about this. I have friends in Germany who run a console modding business, yet refuse to do anything related to the PS2 due to Sony's legal threats to them.
This is not a Microsoft thing. It is a console thing. That's all there is to it.
-Jayde
I know LikSang, Yes, I am from HK (Score:3, Interesting)
The reason why M$ only go after LikSang is that they are high profile. They sell mod-chips online. There are in fact hundreds of those shop out there in HK sell mod-chip/pre-modded console, they just don't do it online. M$ might be able to stop LikSang sell the chips online, but they can't do shit other than that.
I am not saying buying/play private games are right, but HK ppl are so used to it that it becomes the norm. One thing is interesting I would like to share with you guys. The way they sell private console games in HK is kind of funny. Console games usually don't sell in Golden center, since this is such a popular tourist spot. Ppl sell consoles games usually in some shop next to Golden center. When you walk in to those shops, you see private games on racks. However, you see no sales or shopkeeper. There is a paper basket next to the door with money and changes inside. All you need to do is to pick your game and put money into the paper baskets before you leave the shop. Usually, "shop keeper" either pretend to be a shopper or watching outside of the shop. Just make sure you did put money into that basket or someone will beat the crap out of you if you don't. So, if police or whoever come, they can't do anything since they can't find the shop keeper.
Private console CD games are usually around $3 US dollars each and around $8 US dollars for DvD games.
Um hello... (Score:3, Funny)
If you read my past comments you'll see I don't usually flame, but this is ridiculous.
Mod me up, scotty.
I mean, Jesus...
Re:I don't care what you guys say (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:As a general rule (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:As a general rule (Score:2)
Re:As a general rule (Score:4, Informative)
The EULA doesn't have ANYTHING TO DO with the shutting down of this website. Microsoft would most likely be suing Lik Sang for violating either the DMCA or IP rights (more likely IP rights, I would think, but IANAL). Microsoft has said before that they're NOT interested in punishing individual mod chippers, just mass distributors of mod chips.
Thus, you MAY do whatever you want to YOUR XBox and Microsoft won't care. The only caveat to this is if you're logged onto XBox Live -- Microsoft has reserved the right in the Live EULA to revoke the login rights of people with mod chips. This may piss some of you off, but do you really want people with mod chips on XBox Live? No, it could turn into CounterStrike before PunkBuster, with half of the people online cheating.
Re:As a general rule (Score:5, Interesting)
So it'd be a simple case of copyright infringement.
Everything else Lik-Sang sold, including GBA 'backup devices', PSX mods, and perfectly legit consoles, games, and accessories, were probably perfectly legal in most countries. Maybe they made a genuine mistake by stocking the XBox mods - not knowing they may have contained Microsoft's code?
Re:As a general rule (Score:2)
Why they are bothering, on the other hand, is beyond me. It is fairly simple to buy a flash chip for 5 bucks, flash it yourself, and mod away. The cat is out of the bag!
I have to agree with the Dreamcast fans though. This really sucks for those of us with a significant investment in our DCs, as Lik-Sang had nice 3rd party stuff for them.
Re:As a general rule (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:bastards! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:bastards! (Score:3, Informative)
Lan Kwei [lan-kwei.com]
Of course, their Website is down now too. I guess the mercantilist stooges and corporate lackeys in charge of our government have been busy. (Probably need something to do until they manage to foist their latest war of agression on us.)
Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen? (Score:2, Insightful)
Its not my fault they sell the things at a loss. Why should I be forced to be their perfect consumer?
Ambiguous my ass... (Score:5, Insightful)
Say I go buy a used '89 Chevy pickup from a used car dealership. Perfectly legal.
There's a company in town called Classic Roadsters. They've produced a modded body for the '89 line of Chevy pickups that is very similar looking to a Hummer. Perfectly legal (the body shape doesn't breach any size requirements stipulated by the DOT).
but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc.
Now, say I took that modded truck, dressed myself into some army get-up, and drove onto the local army base, pretending to belong to the armed services (I don't). Now I'm doing something illegial.
My point is this: the XBox is a piece of physical hardware. It can be patented. It cannot be licensed. Once I purchase an XBox (if I ever do), I will OWN it 100%. Nothing that Microsoft ever says or does can change that. If I want to take the bloody thing apart and turn it into a toaster oven, Microsoft can't do a thing about it.
People have outfitted their cars for over 60 years now making them better. Say I had a beat-up Ford pickup that didn't work anymore, so I put in an engine from a Dodge pickup so I could get the Ford working again (please don't tell me if this is possible or not... I don't know, but it's all for the sake of argument). I don't think Dodge or Ford would complain. I'm sure you know someone who put a new stereo system into their car. They didn't have to buy a whole new car to get that stereo system they wanted. They put one into their own car so they could have better sound. People soup up their cars all the time specifically so that they don't have to buy a new car just to get the same features. It's perfectly legal to do so. It should be perfectly legal to do the same with consoles.
Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.
Tough shit. Do you see Lincoln selling their Towncar at $9,999 brand new missing an air conditioner, and then selling air conditioners for $20,000 more? And on top of it all, making the Towncar so that no other AC would work in it except for Lincoln's own AC? Of course not! But this is what Microsoft is doing! Don't blame the customer for finding a better deal which is less profitable to Microsoft.
Re:Other Asian manufacturers need to be shut down. (Score:2)
(Corporate lawyers have done a great job at destroying the United States' ability to revoke corporate charters since the end of the Civil War.)
Re:Hate console makers (in a way) (Score:5, Insightful)