Deciphering Windows Product Activation 339
Stephen Lau writes: "Fully Licensed GmbH seems to have deciphered and analyzed the WPA code that Microsoft plans to use to protect from privacy in future products. They've got source and executables up on their site..." As well as an interesting paper which purports to describe the activation process but does not provide details on how these guys reverse-engineered it.
let them try (Score:5)
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Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:2)
Oh my yes! Of course, they won't necessarily know who YOU are, since product REGISTRATION is separate from product ACTIVATION -- and not required to use WinXP.
Re:Read the rest of the doc, asshole (Score:2)
Can this actually crack anything? (Score:2)
Caller ID? (Score:4)
Caller ID, plus a reverse phone number lookup and what more do you need to know?
Can a MAC adress be linked to your IP by going to a site or server (windows update active X controls?)?
Lookup a name and get a street adress, use public records to see who owns the home and it's value. you know they'll get the IP and know all about the computer, partner with doubleclick(or whoever) for tracking surfing habits..
it's not the information that's transmitted, it's what they can do to link it to you
who owns your data?
pre-emptive censored mirror (Score:2)
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Re:No identifiable information (Score:4)
Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:2)
So you're saying someone installs windows by borrowing a friend's CD
Now Microsoft institutes a plan that makes these practices more difficult. They don't try to make it uncrackable, because that's impossible, but they prevent your average user from borrowing the disk from a friend or from work. I bet you'd be surprised how much money we're talking about.
Your idea that Microsoft's OS monopoly gains from piracy only has merit so long as you acknowledge that one day Microsoft must one day squeeze those pirates for their long overdue gold.
Today is that day...
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
Re:All I can say is... (Score:2)
Well then...maybe not
Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:2)
Today we lost 4366.99 from people copying our software without us knowing.
In case you can't figure it out, there is no way for them to know. They know how many boxes they sold, because they can count them. Not so with unlicensed copies.
Windows XP connection logs (Score:4)
It does all this without prompting the user.
The box was isolated at 192.168.1.3 and had ALL outgoing traffic denied and logged, these are the highlights.
device eth0 entered promiscuous mode
device eth1 entered promiscuous mode
Packet log: input DENY eth1 PROTO=17 192.168.1.3:123 207.46.228.33:123 L=76 S=0x00 I=5 F=0x0000 T=128 (#5)
time.windows.com (207.46.228.33)
This one is rather obvious, it sets the operating system clock, but don't try using netdate on it, it's proprietary to Windows only (whoops!)
Packet log: input DENY eth1 PROTO=6 192.168.1.3:1027 207.46.197.100:80 L=48 S=0x00 I=88 F=0x4000 T=128 SYN (#5)
(microsoft.com, www.domestic.microsoft.com, and microsoft.net address pool)
Packet log: input DENY eth1 PROTO=6 192.168.1.3:1043 207.46.227.40:80 L=48 S=0x00 I=770 F=0x4000 T=128 SYN (#5)
(wpa.one.microsoft.com try https [207.46.227.40] to it and see the certificate yourself!)
This is the Product Activation certificate, it attempted to connect to this server an incredibly large number of times.
Packet log: input DENY eth1 PROTO=17 192.168.1.3:1039 192.168.0.1:2869 L=48 S=0x00 I=673 F=0x0000 T=128 (#5)
Not sure what it did here, 192.168.0.1 is the gateway I don't have the packet data at all, I'll do that in the near future. MAD props to brewt for some of the info!
Re:Can this actually crack anything? (Score:2)
Read the docs - they seem to have a very high opinion of WPA and feel that alot of the "fears" about it are unfounded to say the least.
Gam
hey, they did it. How hard can it be? (Score:2)
I'm sure one of you guys could do it. For the Fun of it of course. It would only be a tool for learning of course.
Someone want to prove me wrong?
Pete
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
Re:Feeling ambivalent about Grandma... (Score:3)
This is a first, a businessman taking credit for something a politician did...
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
Wait until you've got the real thing, then start telling people about how much better it is than they feared.
It would be so easy to check the build number, and if it contains "RC", say "Thanks for choosing Microsoft!" and set the system death timer ticking (they are time limited, after all...), else show compulsory "life history" registration form...
Cheers,
Tim
Re:Isn't this asking for a lawsuit? (Score:3)
That doesn't look like it was done in the the name of "interoperability" at all ...
But of course it was:
"My copy of Windows XP didn't work any more after I changed my hardware, so I took it apart to find out why! Oh, and by the way, here's what I found out..."
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
Re:Can this actually crack anything? (Score:2)
Re:Windows XP connection logs (Score:2)
C:\> net time /setsntp:tick.usno.navy.mil
C:\> net start w32time
To get statistics on your SNTP operations and servers, use the w32tm.exe tool as such:
w32tm /resync - Resync your SNTP time /stripchart - Display time differences
w32tm
Hope that helps!
-Pat
Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:2)
Another interesting tidbit: Business are required to list losses on their financial statements, but they never list Piracy as one. Go figure.
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
Re:"an important cryptographic key" (Score:2)
Isn't everything?
~~~
The key they removed: 0xD45EC86A (Score:5)
void KeyedHash(unsigned char *Data, unsigned char *Result)
{
SHA_CTX Context;
unsigned char Digest[20];
static unsigned char Key[4] =
{
#error The key has been removed from the source code. Please obtain the executable.
};
SHA1_Init(&Context);
SHA1_Update(&Context, Data, 8);
SHA1_Update(&Context, Key, 4);
SHA1_Final(Digest, &Context);
memcpy(Result, Digest, 8);
}
Doing a quick disassembly of the code:
00401590 KeyedHash proc near ; CODE XREF: sub_4015F0+19p
00401590
00401590 var_74 = dword ptr -74h
00401590 var_70 = dword ptr -70h
00401590 var_60 = byte ptr -60h
00401590 arg_0 = dword ptr 4
00401590 arg_4 = dword ptr 8
00401590
004015AE push 4
004015B0 lea eax, [esp+88h+var_60]
004015B4 push offset dword_40A034 ; ********** MAGIC!
004015B9 push eax
004015BA call sub_402170
004015E8 retn
004015E8 KeyedHash endp
And the location they referenced:
0040A034 dword_40A034 dd 0D45EC86Ah
Thusly, the key should be 0xD45EC86A.
More than one can play this game.
Enjoy! (Sorry for the formatting,
Re:Isn't this asking for a lawsuit? (Score:3)
What if there is? Anything in an EULA which against the law is automatically void. Germany still appears to have laws protecting free speach in the area of software examination.
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
You know what happens when you press that button? It doesn't send the info and moves along its way...
Feeling ambivalent about Grandma... (Score:5)
I was actually looking forward to the day when I could say, "Well, Grandma, I could change your busted hard drive for you, but that would mean that nice Gates man would want another $300. Maybe you should just buy another computer..."
"Buy another computer?! What's wrong with you, boy? I'll just shop around for a cheaper copy of Windows! Someone'll will have it on sale..."
I was so looking forward to listening to Grandma on MS tech support demanding another activation code, and chewing them out when they inevitably refuse to give it to her...
XP activation was going to be the wake-up call for Joe EndUser. Now that it's been publicly hacked, I'm really rather torn...
MOD THIS ONE UP (Score:2)
Re:even worse ... (Score:2)
Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:2)
Well, now that Microsoft's monopoly position has become so strongly entrenched, the marginal value of piracy to them has been reduced. However, their stock price is now embarrassingly low, so pirate users represent a good untapped resource to help reinflate their stock bubble. (Doubling costs to businesses is another good strategy.)
In fact, this is urgently important to Microsoft, since it hasn't actually turned a profit on software sales in a while ("The Bank of Microsoft" is solely responsible for Microsoft's good looking bottom line), and since it can't use its stock price as currency like it used to. In many ways, Microsoft looks like a falling empire, which it likely is, and pumping up its stock price is a good defence.
Now be good c1t1z3n5 and pay your Microsoft tax! (Or use something else...)
reminds me of DeCSS (Score:3)
On a similar note, check out a Salon article on MS's bullying tactics on poor schools: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/07/10/micro soft_school/print.html [salon.com]
Re:What a shock (Score:2)
Typical hardware modifications....
If you change more than three things, you have to go through whatever hoops Microsoft wants to put you through to use something you've already paid for...
I don't know about you (or the guys who did this), but the last time I upgraded a machine, I increased the memory (1 change), added a hard drive (2 changes), replaced both the modem and the video card (3 and 4 changes)... Whoops... Went too far, must now cope with Mr. Bill and the XP nonesense...
XP Reliability? (Score:2)
<troll-material>If Win98 is an indication, the 32-bit (kinda) MS OSes benefitted from a re-install every year or so</troll-material>. If I had XP the last two years, I would have had to call them 3 times already!
But seriously, is the amount of Microsoft investing in over-friendly tech support people that dole out ids going to be worth it for all of this hassel to them and consumers? I could see the XP reg. tech. support staff getting quite large
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:2)
Asia will be cloning millions of copies of WinXP the morning after its released, and M$ won't be getting any product activation calls.
WinXP and OfficeXP CD's will cost about $1 each in Asia (and that's more than they're really worth). M$ code is just a commodity.
Re:Office 2K activation (Score:2)
Re:The key they removed: 0xD45EC86A (Score:2)
Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:2)
I had a $5 academic license for Office. When the new computer got built I couldn't install it since this copy was already registered. Even after a call to them, they said I had no way to prove I owned the license.
I think I got brushed off because I only paid $5 for it. The sick thing is, someone else paid big bucks for me to get it that cheap in the first place. Fuck 'em.
I just installed an older version, and really haven't used it since I started using star office and the like.
I actually backed up wma files and not realized that is was pointless since I could no longer play them. No one told me that a file I encoded needed a license to play it. Of course trying to play it got my information send to MS, along with the song name etc. Windows Media Player does this automatically.
I simple don't let that app access the internet anymore. With more MS software that wants to access the internet, the smaller that partition gets.
XP, not for me. Even if it's 'more stable', it's not going to touch my PC. The first time a window pops up saying I'll need XP, all of windows is gone. Adios Red Alert, adios Kazaa, I'll miss you.
Re:hash pipe... (Score:3)
The hash function can be extremely complex, but given a small range of inputs M (only 2 double words), a hash table of possible values can be pre-calculated. The actual number of possible values for M will be very small, on the order of a few thousand, up to possibly 25,000. The input M to the RC5 hash will be a known, limited number of drive IDs, video card IDs, CD-ROM IDs, etc. micr~1.oft is in the position to have a list of every drive manufacturer and video card identification string, and could use those lists to obtain the original string from the hash.
This is what password cracking programs do, instead of trying to reverse the hash, pre-compute dictionaries and compare the outputs.
the AC
Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:2)
While this may be true about the latest cool game, a computer without an operating system is a very expensive paperweight.
Microsoft's anti-trust punishment should be a compulsory and immediate donation of $5-billion to the Free Software Foundation. This would shortly spell the end of Microsoft's tyranny.
Re:Feeling ambivalent about Grandma... (Score:2)
Huh? You mean that (insert expletive) Son of Satan Gates wants you on the phone for 10 minutes to get another key. There's a big difference.
The real win here is marketing. (Score:5)
Its not just MS (Score:2)
Install PC anywhere or most virus scanners and they ask for more info, or as one poster pointed out try installing on a mac.
The fact is that WPA isnt the evil nemesis it is pointed out to be.... yet
the thing that worries me is not what might be in the product now but what they may have up their sleeve for later.. why not a product that wont work unless you enter a valid credit card (for ID purposes only) or a drivers license number, or a product that is only installable once without you going back and getting another software key (can be done easily you know)... what about a product that appends an invisible piece of code in a watermark that indicates the details of the machine and copy that made it (this is already being done or has been tried)
these are the things that make me worried - we should be fighting this not beacuse its MS or because it mayb a way to make money, we should be fighting it because it may be the last chance we can.
Re:How long? (Score:2)
"an important cryptographic key" (Score:4)
Kinda like: "Here are the plans to build a nuclear bomb, but we took out the part about where to get plutonium. But if you want one pre-made with plutonium ready to go, we can hook you up with that, too."
Isn't this whole thing just a matter of time and programmer determination anyway?
Re:Isn't this asking for a lawsuit? (Score:2)
Those nutty Germans! Always with the lots of words, when a single word would do!
Literally, it translates to "Society with More Limited Adhesion." I'm not sure if that's "more-limited adhesion" or "more limited-adhesion," mind you, but either way sounds like a run-in with a UHU glue stick...
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Re:Try this: business trip to Australia (Score:2)
So, he goes on the road, upgrades his RAM, and boom, Office no longer works.
I don't have a problem with Microsoft requiring that he call a toll-free number or use the Internet to reactivate application; however, I do have a problem when they require that he reenter the serial number to do it. What's the purpose of that? The solution, of course, is to always keep a list of your Microsoft serial numbers on both your computer and in paper form just such a situation happens to you.
Re:And its corollary: (Score:2)
Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:2)
And you completely trust MS to never cross-reference this information? We know how well that worked out with the ad agencies *cough*.
Anyway, even if they don't know WHO you are, they still can track what modifications and upgrades you've done to your system, and all the serial numbers of your equipment. That itself is alarming. I bet it's not that hard to find out from equipment manufacturers, where their products ended up, especially if those parts are individually registered.
Re:What a shock (Score:2)
This brings up another point about Microsoft's licensing schemes: 'Upgrade' CDs. As many of you know, MS offers upgrade CDs in retail stores that upgrade you to the latest flavor of Win9x, and they offer them for less than the full version of the same flavor. While this is fine, of course, the install program checks your hard drive to see if you have a previous flavor of Win9x installed. If you don't, then you don't get the new flavor.
Here's where the problem comes into play -- what if a particular user has, through some sort of magically lucky stability, upgrade versions (and only upgrade versions) of everything up to, say, WinME? I.e. Win 3.1 upgraded to Win95 upgraded to Win98 upgraded to WinME. Or, in a more likely scenario (this one has happened to me personally), what if they have a full version of Win95 and upgrades up the rest of the chain? If they need to reinstall WinME, are they to start all over again by installing Win 3.1, and working their way up the chain? And, what if -- oops -- they lose their Win95 CD? Then, although they are legally entitled to install and use Win98/WinME, they cannot do so. I know of people this has happened to, and needless to say it was incredibly frustrating for them not to be able to install an OS they had a legal copy of.
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Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:5)
This is most of the reason why I see the Y Company lost $X to piracy as a BS argument. I've always noticed that lots of people won't pay for software at all; if they had to pay they would do without. IN that case, the Y Company is losing $X in potential sales because their price is too high/marketing not good enough/etc... How different is that from any other company in the tangible good and services industries that loses sales because consumers dont want to pay that much for the product? Why, then, should we treat software companies any differently from those that have poor sales policies?
Three Strikes And You're Out (Score:2)
Re:All the hardware you're not allowed to change: (Score:2)
Isn't this asking for a lawsuit? (Score:5)
I haven't seen any of the license agreements concerning Windows installs that have WPA, but I assume that there's something against reverse engineering. Not only have these people reverse engineered (part of) the WPA process, but they've published the source code. While they didn't put the cryptographic key in the source, they did put it in the executable, and even clearly proclaim this, almost a wink wink nudge nudge to the people out there who are sure to take the executable appart, get the key, put it back into the source code, and then re-publish the complete, non-crippled source.
Given all this, it seems like their really asking for MS to sue them. Is something like this covered under an "academic research" clause that allows reverse engineering for research purposes?
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose that you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Re:All I can say is... (Score:2)
What a shock (Score:3)
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Re:Make sure to mirror this.... (Score:2)
If you're going to "mirror" something, do the whole thing, otherwise when MS forces them to bring their site down, you'll have more than just a page of broken links.
Re:How long? (Score:4)
there are two things that could make things ugly for Fully Licensed GmbH. one is a license agreement, but so far, the validity of click-through, shrink-wrap or similiar licenses is highly doubted in germany. AFAIK, none has ever been enforced in a court.
second, there is a provision against reverse-engineering in the german copyright law. however, it also allows for a number of exceptions.
one way or the other, since they are a GmbH, the worst that can happen is that they'll be sued out of business, but with no loss to their private capital. so they'll immediatly start a new company under a similiar name and harvest all the free publicity advantages.
because lastly, sueing them would be the equivalent of saying "yes, we feel guilty. yes, we've done wrong. and no, we can't stand that you found us with the hand in the cookie jar." - a pretty dumb publicity stunt, even for M$ standards.
Ms. Freud, your slip is showing (Score:2)
Need I say more?
Plus hacking your competitors (Score:2)
But also, imagine how useful it would be to have a database of the precise hardware used by each of your competitors' systems. Or the startups you were potentially interested in acquiring?
It sounds like script kiddie heaven- when any security vulnerability becomes known you have a nice map of the hundreds, thousands, millions of systems having the vulnerability.
I'm sure Microsoft is so ethical they would never use a black ops team to take advantage of such information.... ;)
--LP
Nightmare essay question for Bill Gates: Explain why new economy rules don't apply to software dot-coms, but do apply to software anti-trust enforcement. Describe what a hypothetical software monopoly's obligations would be under the Sherman Anti-trust Act, as you interpret it. Defend your interpretation with Supreme Court citations.
Re:Feeling ambivalent about Grandma... (Score:2)
Re:Caller ID? (Score:2)
MS: Hello, sir, how may I help you?
Induhvidual: I'd like an activation key.
MS: OK, can I have your name, address, mother's maiden name, social security number, daytime phone, evening phone, Fax, and a note from your mother?
Induhvidual: OK, here goes...
Although, the scary thing is what if they refused to give you the key if you refused to give them the information they require?
Re:The real win here is marketing. (Score:2)
Ummm, except that Microsoft does not actually find out what hardware you have. They simply use the ID information from the hardware to generate a unique key for your system. Then they receive that KEY. Later on, when your hardware changes, that key will change. If it changes by too much, then you have to call them to get another activation code.
If Microsoft really did require the hardware information be sent to them, how exactly would activation over the phone work?
Security through obscurity (Score:2)
When people need to close sources and algorithms of a crypto system, it's almost always because it's flacky. They don't trust their own algorithms. They don't want other people know how they are working, because they know the algorithms can easily be broken when you know their mechanics.
-- Pure FTP server [pureftpd.org] - Upgrade your FTP server to something simple and secure.
Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:2)
What does it matter? I'm already connected to the internet when I activate XP. Even people with dialup connections can just establish their connection first, and then start the activation process. Those without an internet account but with a modem can call Microsoft if they are really paranoid enough to think that Microsoft is going to track caller ID.
Make sure to mirror this.... (Score:4)
- A.P.
--
Best Freudian typo (Score:2)
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Re:VMware (Score:3)
Or they might not. VMWare is in bed pretty deep with MS--maybe they have to be, since it'd be pretty easy for MS to make the EULA invalid in a VM (legal or not, no corporation would run it in a VM if the EULA denied that right). Or MS could take technical countermeasures (see also DR-DOS and Windows 3.1) to keep XP from running in a VM, essentially putting VMWare out of business.
One thing I noted is that about a year ago, there was an announcement with much fanfare that VMWare would sell bundles of MS licenses with VMWare. At roughly the same time, OS/2 support, which had been worked on and tested for some time, was suddenly dropped. Can I prove cause and effect? No. Are there lots of other reasons support can have been removed? Sure. But the timing's awfully suspect.
Also, VMWare is hard coded to use a certain OUI (Organizational Unit Identifier) for VM network card NIC addresses--meaning they'll always start with a known prefix. VMWare provides no way to change this, meaning that MS or any other organization with access to the NIC address (or even a hash, probably) will know one is running a VM. (Imagine a typical Georgia network nazi reaction to seeing that with a sniffer.)
I'm not confident VMWare's going to be allowing anyone to change hardware serial numbers in VMs--I'll bet they randomize them just to avoid jepoardizing their "strategic relationship" with Microsoft.
Re:Try this: business trip to Australia (Score:2)
right, i'll just open up the spreadsheet that they are in...
wait, no.
no problem, i'll just open the word docum...
that's all right, i've got another copy in an access datab...
hang on, it's sitting in a folder in outl...
hmm.
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Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:2)
I don't need to trust Microsoft -- I just won't register XP. That's the point
Anyway, even if they don't know WHO you are, they still can track what modifications and upgrades you've done to your system, and all the serial numbers of your equipment.
I don't think so. They just get a huge number that is generated from hashing the various ID's of your hardware. There is a big difference. They would not be able to tell the hardware installed, but rather, whether or not the hardware that is installed has changed since the last time you activated.
Re:Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:2)
MSFT looses $X Billion to piracy each year
Sort of a tangential point, but to fill in the $X: According to the SPA, software piracy has saved consumers worldwide over $59.2 billion in the last five years, and $12 billion last year alone [siia.net]. The linked document also details which regions saved the most.
Leverage (Score:2)
Ridiculous (Score:3)
Really, checking the amount of RAM in a system? Of course, no one EVER adds RAM, right?
MS has perfected the art of "incremental monopoly." Each step is not too bad, and after 10 steps, you are used to the last 3 steps, so it still seems ok. Eventually, you have
And its corollary: (Score:2)
Privacy or Piracy? (Score:3)
Caller ID - They've got your info (Score:2)
----------------------------------
purpose of paper? (Score:5)
In this light, the paper itself is relatively benign; enough so that Microsoft shouldn't be overly worried about it.
The fact that it can be used to spoof WAP isn't even mentioned in the paper
I am guessing this is entirely intentional.
Re:lok-tite (Score:3)
I know how to pick locks, but I'm not a theif. I know how to hack, but I'm not a cracker. I can decrypt DVD's with DeCSS, but I don't pirate films. Same thing here. No security system should rely on common (the same for all users) secrets to maintain strength.
twb
Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:2)
You can't take the hash and generate the original hashed string.
You can take strings and try them until you find the right hash.
For such a small hash, there are going to be a lot of possible matches.
--
Two witches watched two watches.
Re:dammit (Score:2)
Registration (Score:3)
Re:hmmmm (Score:2)
Insert obligatory reminder from Free Software advocates that "piracy" is a corruption of the language.
Insert obligatory rebuttal that those very same advocates often refer to Windows users as slaves, thus corrupting the language in the same fashion.
Insert obligatory cry for moderation and civility in public discourse.
Go AFK to ponder futility.
Return like you always do.
So how does a thin client get licenced? (Score:2)
Quite interesting... (Score:3)
How long? (Score:3)
Will they change the algorithm before the next build? Probably not, their lawyers need the money.
Copy protection (Score:3)
--
When I'm good I'm very good, when I'm bad I'm better, But when I'm evil you better run
Re:lok-tite (Score:5)
I beg to differ. There are countless articles written on how to pick locks. Here is one that is written on the level of the layman:
How Stuff Works: Lock Picking. [howstuffworks.com]
There are methods for doing many untasteful things(i.e. building bombs, cooking methamphetamine, etc) freely available, but this does not mean that everyone is blowing up buildings. I don't think it causes harm to simply have the information available. Security by obscurity is no securtity at all.
Enigma
For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:5)
Various strings are run through a hashing function and are stored in the key you read to the Microsoft rep over the phone (the Installation key). They are:
- Your network card's MAC address
- Amount of RAM installed
- Processor model
- Processor serial number
- Volume serial number
- Hardware ID strings from
- Your CD-ROM drive
- Your hard drive
- Your video card
- Your SCSI host adapter
- Your IDE controller
These values are thrown together (along with some other values) into a huge bit field. Also, a three-digit random number is thrown into the mix. Because the end result that you read to the phone rep is encrypted, this three digit number causes your code to be entirely different on each install.Here's the real fun part: The OS also stores a snapshot of your hardware configuration. If you change more than three of these hardware components out? It's time to call Microsoft and re-activate your license.
When you re-activate, naturally you'll have to generate a new Installation Key and they'll be able to see exactly what components you changed out. Fun, huh?
Same old Cut 'n Paste argument. But anyway... (Score:5)
But when did Microsoft ever sell, say Win95 for $35 ? So, how has piracy raised the price? It's always been sold for one price (~$80) and hasn't gone up or down depending on how many copies are purchased.
And then there's the user base argument. When people are pirating your software, they're strengthening your monopoly. Just as it's good for FreeSoftware everytime a Linux/*BSD CD is given to someone new, how does it hurt MS when a home user borrows their friend's Win95 CD? The more times Win95 is installed, the more people are using it and the more likely that person is to become a valuable Windows-using consumer. Buying Windows software, perhaps purchasing a new computer with Win98 preinstalled. Requiring a Windows PC at work. Purchasing upgrades.
Now, I must admit that most people who are going to borrow a Win95 CD will be unlikely to turn 100% legal overnight. But then, when has Microsoft ever been struggling. Well, only when EVERYONE ELSE has been struggling. Back when the economy was booming, Microsoft wasn't struggling to survive due to piracy. Only when everyone else has been struggling has MS even started to feel the pinch.
Like I said, it's the same old cookie-cutter answer to "MSFT looses $X Billion to piracy each year", but it's always a fun argument
kickin' science like no one else can,
my dick is twice as long as my attention span.
Re:lok-tite (Score:3)
Well, then, I guess my employer is going ot hell after all! He promises customers something he doesnt't have (a functioning network), then pays me peanuts to fix it/install it/etc. without telling me how much the customer is paying him (obviously, more than he pays me).
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:3)
Also, may I point out:
--Apple Doesn't Require Serial Numbers For MacOS X!-- (It does for OSX Server, though)
I think that kinda beats out a small annoyance with the registration.
Just my $0.02CDN.
Argh, this really will suck... (Score:4)
Now, I swap out video cards, CD's, NIC's, and CPU's fairly often. I also use removable HDD chassis to ease swapping drives in my primary box.
This really will be a pain for those who have rigs used for a lot of testing.
Comment removed (Score:4)
Re:Actually, (Score:3)
Like "neunhundertneunundneunzigtausendneunhundertneunu
Or "Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübe
I look at it sort of like a user interface issue: what's going to increase comprehension and decrease error rates -- using spaces between words, ornotusingspacesbetweenwords?
The former, obviously. So why on earth choose the latter?!
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Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:5)
I think that when I registered the iMac a certain company bought to do web compatibility testing, it wound up being used primarily for scientific research. In an elementary school.
They ask you for _your_ email address. But all they require is _an_ email address. Besides, you have a throwaway webmail account for everything that asks for your address where there's a slight chance that they might actually need to use it to achieve something you want, right?
On the other hand, the WinXP product verification collects true information about your computer. Perhaps the one for OS X does also, but they haven't mentioned anything about not being able to install that copy of OS X on another Mac. There are indications that changing your hardware "too much" will invalidate your XP product verification. People have asked Microsoft, "How much is too much?", and they're not telling. That certainly seems worse to me.
I suppose this would bother me more if I were ever going to use one of these operating systems at home, but I'm not. This is one of the main reasons I use free software. If I see an operating system or program that looks useful, I download it and use it. If I like it, I continue to use it. If not, I discard it with no sense of loss. The most invasive thing I've ever encountered was when someone wanted me to send them a postcard for using their software.
Sotto la panca, la capra crepa
Re:Question about the keys (Score:3)
A CD key is ideally a random piece of data (numbers, digits, etc) that includes some hard-to-compute checksum information. For a good key, it would be extremely difficult to determine the algorithm used to find this cheksum. Note that these keys have become progressively more complex over the years, getting longer and using more digits/letters. Note that all the keys will work on any copy of that specific release of the software, so they only add a minor annoyance to pirates.
Starting with Office 2k, MS required actual activation of the product in much the same way as Win XP. Office generates a hardware ID for your system and submits it to Microsoft. MS then gives you another product key specifically for that hardware ID. They allows you to register online once, and you're required to call an 800 number each time after that to get your key.
Office required a new key on a hard drive upgrade and on a motherboard upgrade. The fourth time I installed it (on my laptop), I also had to submit my serial number (generated from the CD Key I assume) to receive my activation key.
Though this might be new for MS, other companies have been doing it for years. Much of the engineering software we use here for classes (Mentor Graphics, Orcad, etc) has much more intrusive licensing, since a license for the software can cost several times the price of a low-end workstation. This software can often get away with tough licensing restrictions because of the small market served. Because windows is so widespread, however, Microsoft will have a hard time keeping their progressively more complex protection schemes from being thwarted.
Re:All the hardware you're not allowed to change: (Score:4)
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TheGreenReaper (Laurence Parry)
No identifiable information (Score:3)
I don't know about the online activation (haven't run a sniffer on it, yet), but I tried the telephone activation today, and there was no personal information exchanged. I called the toll-free number, waited on hold for about 10 minutes (and we're still in the beta stage--just wait until this thing hits mainstream), then finally talked to a patronizing tech support drone. He asked me for the product activation key, a numeric string that makes MS CD keys look sane--32 digits, IIRC. He then read back a 36-digit numeric string to be entered in the activation window. That was it--no e-mail address, no name, phone number/address, etc. I suppose it could have been a hash code containing my name, but that's all it could have contained, as I had not entered any other information to that point. Probably just a hardware ID.
Incidentally, I recommend everybody register every copy of Windows by phone. First of all, you know what you're telling them, at least directly, but more importantly, it costs them more money. Think about it: ten minutes on hold on a toll-free line (their expense), five minutes of techie-time. Even at a modest $10/hr for the techie, that's almost a dollar spent on him, plus the phone charge. Now, imagine ten million copies of Windows being registered by phone. The infrastructure cost alone would be enormous--you know they haven't planned for that many people to call. Just one more example of my favorite form of vengeance: use their own weapons against them.
Re:For those of you who didn't read the doc: (Score:3)
Then you can change whatever you like, whenever you like.
Re:My Experience with XP Activation (Score:4)
All the postcard-ware licenses I've seen simply ask you to send a postcard if you like the software. No registration, no details, just a postcard from where you live. I think it's cool.
"We all say so, so it must be true!"