Harvard Offers Sneak Peek Into Their Network 132
Bob Brown writes "Harvard University doesn't usually talk much about its internal network, but here, the guy overseeing it opens up about the homegrown and commercial tools used to manage the massive system." From the article: "Harvard, as of late, has been exhibiting another telco trait - considering the network as part of the university's critical infrastructure. As such, its construction is considered during the initial planning phases of building renovation, new construction and campus expansion projects. The data networks that are being built today, at Harvard and similar institutions, are being built to host a variety of IP-based traffic. Most every physical-plant control device, whether it be security cameras, chilled water-valve actuators or parking garage card readers, are being designed to work with the IP network"
Wait .. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wait .. (Score:1, Informative)
I guess the moderator has no idea that MIT is two subway stops down the street from Harvard. Funny? Maybe, or maybe not. But not off-topic. Dumb moderator.
Re:Wait .. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Wait .. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wait .. (Score:5, Funny)
And MIT will be MIT when Harvard's time is up
And if any Harvard son of a bitch thinks he's in our class
He can pucker up his rosey lips and kiss the beaver's ass
And should we find a Harvard man within our sacred walls
We'll take him to the physics lab and amputate his balls
And if he should cry uncle well I'll tell ya what we'll do
We'll stuff his ass with broken glass and seal it up with glue
KFG
Re:Wait .. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Wait .. (Score:1)
Re:Wait .. (Score:1)
Um, Harvard's between 223 and 229 years older than MIT, depending on how pedantic you want to get about dates.
Re:Wait .. (Score:1)
Yes. Harvard's development has always been a bit, well, retarded.
KFG
Re:Wait .. (Score:1)
MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:5, Funny)
so... if that is right... i could, theoritcally, break the intarweb for all of harvard?
oh, did i just say that outloud? i mean come on! what do you think when you see large bundles of cable?
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2)
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2)
How lazy are you? It's barely a 10-minute walk.
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2)
its always nice to see knuckleheads make wild ass assumptions about people they don't know anything about.
you can go now.
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2)
I know anyone who takes a subway instead of walking ten minutes is lazy. Then again, the shift key seems to be a bit of a reach for you too.
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2)
Furthermore, most dorms at MIT each have their own class B all to themselves.
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:2)
http://macfadden.mit.edu/colserv/digital/ordering/ ip.html [mit.edu]
When I worked at MIT, I was aware of the size of their IP space (larger than China), but I didn't realized the full extent of how much they really had until we needed some address space for our subdomain, csbi.mit.edu. The planned subdomain spanned a half dozen buildings spread out over a distance of four square kilometers, with dedicated fiber links between all the buildings.
After I send network-ops a detailed email
Re:MIT already knows. (was Re:Wait..) (Score:1)
Necessary Approach (Score:5, Interesting)
In contrast, our newest building is thoroughly wired (with the perplexing and random exception of two small labs that I spent several days running cable to last summer). Even the closets have multiple ports, just in case, and that has been important several times.
Documentation is equally important, and someplace where we currently lag. Currently, what goes where is stored in our heads, and gets lost every time someone leaves. The mix of old and new standards, as well non-standard crap has made the documenting process difficult. Also, it is impossible if there isn't a method in place for ensuring that changes made as documentation is being built up aren't recorded.
Another challenge is correctly anticipating what your future needs are and building in expandability. Our athletic center was built right before the networking became standard, and while it has plenty of phone lines, the distance is too far to run ethernet in some cases, and the routing makes spot-upgrades close to impossible.
I'd like to work there. (Score:3, Funny)
*sigh*
[goes back to fixing another spyware ridden windows box]
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:5, Funny)
Why don't you apply? I hear they are looking to fill at least one position [harvard.edu].
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:1)
Oh sure and have the GNAA after me?
On a serious note, I raise an eyebrow whenever I see an obvious attempt to succor favor from minorities.
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't remember the last
Documentation - Check
Test Environment - Check
Disaster Recovery Tests - Check
Inform the Users - Check
They made a really good move hiring someone from the Telephone Industry. Nothing like having someone used to managing critical infrastructure in charge of your biz.
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:2)
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:2)
Re:I'd like to work there. (Score:1)
ordinarily, (Score:2)
I interviewed at Harvard (Score:3, Funny)
The other person I interviewed with was an asshole, insulting me in the interview. It was a Solaris shop, and at the time, the guy said that E10Ks were 'small', and that I needed experience with something bigger before I 'wasted any more' of his time. I scratched my head, and wondered what part of Sun's product
Incompetence (Score:2, Interesting)
-----------
$ host harvard.edu
harvard.edu A record currently not present
-----------
I notified them about this months ago, but they didn't seem to care. Most web browsers automatically try the "www" prefix when you type, say, "harvard.edu" into your address bar, so you don't notice this problem generally. However, if you try wget, you can see it fail.
-----------
$ wget harvard.edu
--14:38:45-- http://harvard.edu/ [harvard.edu]
=>
Re:Incompetence (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Incompetence (Score:2)
Though, for largely historical reasons, having an A record (that points to a SMTP server) is considered A Good Thing. (For example, if for some reason MX lookup fails, postfix will, optionally I think, look up the A record instead. Some other MTAs have this behavior too).
Re:Incompetence (Score:3, Informative)
it is also Good Practice to have an A record on your hostname. for legacy reasons. some mail systems will refuse to send and/or receive mail if the A is absent (although they may check for MX, there's no garantee)
irrelevant ... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Incompetence (Score:3, Funny)
WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:4, Informative)
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:5, Interesting)
Like maybe browsing the notes to the lecture that the teacher made available and adding notes/annotations
Pulling down source code from the book you've got because it didn't come with a CD (that costs extra)
Googling for more info to assist a group project
Uploading/Downloading your notes from your home server so you can keep them all in one place
Saving bookmarks and urls that a teacher may point out as a good source for more info
Using your laptop to run a presentation/group project
etc...
I know I was able to get a lot of use out of internet access when I was in the classroom a number of years back. It was Quite invaluable in MANY of my classes. The annoying thing is that we didn't have wireless then so I had to make sure I was by a port, although many of the newer buildings had classrooms where there was a network port and power plug available at every seat (if there weren't already PC's there). How one sided of a universtiy to think that because someone COULD missuse a piece of technology, that everyone will... but then again, it is Harvard. I bet they talk to the RIAA on a regular basis.
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:1)
I work at a health sciences university and recently the faculty voted to not instal network ports in thier main classroom. I was shocked. There are so many reasons why people with laptops would n
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:2)
It might be due to the fact that good students will know how to work around the limitation. Not in a bad/intrusive way, but they'll write down any addresses the professor mentions and look at them after class. They'll get the class notes from the professor's website before or after class.
In other words, the good students aren't suffering, and there's a chance some of the people who would have been using IM, playing games, or
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm only in 6th Form at the moment, but I find being able to access everything absolutely invaluable. I could live without it, but having 3 years worth of notes on-hand to search through comes in useful.
Harvard and RIAA (Score:2)
Harvard General Counsel knows about RIAA and Tor? (Score:1)
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:2)
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:1, Insightful)
A good student will have pulled down the lecture notes to their hard drive already.
>Pulling down source code from the book you've got because it didn't come with a CD (that costs extra)
You don't know when you got a CD with your book?
>Googling for more info to assist a group project
This one is a decent use. The instructor could have a web-based interface to say when students can use the Internet.
>Upl
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:3, Insightful)
Store it locally
Uploading/Downloading your notes from your home server so you can keep them all in one place
Store them locally temporally
Like maybe browsing the notes to the lecture that the teacher made available and adding notes/annotations
Pulling down source code from the book you've got because it didn't come with a CD (that costs extra)
Grab them before class and store them locally
Googling for more info to assist a group project
This one can't be answe
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:1)
man. that would tick me off.
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:1)
Have you considered this policy was enacted after after it was misused?
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:2)
I work in 3rd level IT support at a University.
We installed cabling and RJ45 sockets into all the desks in the library as part of its refit. 90% of those sockets have since had pens shoved in them in order to break the pins. Many of them are also full of chewing gum. It's going to cost us quite a bit of money to have them all replaced, and the problem will just keep happening
It's n
Re:In All Fairness... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:In All Fairness... (Score:2)
Re:In other words... (Score:1)
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:3, Informative)
Instructors may override this per student, or per class when needed.
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:2)
Why? Well:
1. Those who would use WiFi during class for non-class things will just use their laptop for playing offline games or whatever anyways, so it doesn't solve much.
2. Those who are actually using their laptop to help learn during class benefit from WiFi. Prof uses a term you don't know? Wikipedia
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:1)
Re:WiFi Accounts Disabled (Score:1)
I have been in both environments, and have seen what a difference it makes. There is always far greater ratio goofing off with the internet available. It is sad that a few rotten students ruin it for others.
Nightmare on Harvard Yard (Score:1)
100 goats in the President's swimming pool will be so passe now!
So close (Score:1)
Just install greasemonkey (Score:2)
Any article on
Re:So close (Score:2)
for example
http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1794
http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=17940
Re:So close (Score:1)
Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
If a server goes down you would expect that internet access would not work. But now if a server goes down you can't access the internet and you can't get water either. Considering the fact that most networks are poorly configured anyway, the amount of problems that could be generated from something like this far outweigh the ability to actuate a cold water valve through the network,
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Wiring everything into their internet servers just creates a lot more problems when something goes down.
While true, that's another part of the system's analysis and design. A risk and cost/benefit assessment must be made. How important are these services in the event of IP failure? What redundency can be built in to avoid it? What are the consequences of a security breach? etc. It seems to me that if they were smart enough to address IP possibilities before construction begins, they also have the b
Re:Why? (Score:1, Informative)
- you're confusing the servers and the network. The network is intended to be up 24/7 just like electricity and water, and it seems from the article that they do a pretty good job of this. This is also true of individual servers, but you're kidding yourself if you think that crashing the www.harvard.edu webserver, or cutting their internet access off, is also going to shut off the water. The water server is separate, and more importantly:
- the water valve actuator is not likely to be continuously
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Chilled water is the water that the campus's aircon units use to cool the air in the buildings. The chilled water is pumped from a central plant where there are massive things called 'chillers'.
I can only assume that HVAC controls companies are starting to use IP with their controls. used to be all custom.
Still scary putting it all on the same net, though.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)
A cold water valve actuator works very differently from your faucet in your ketchen, both in the mechanics and scale of flows.
Let me begin by pointing out the facts that most, if not all of the new industrial controls are trying to get on the IP based networking already. It is far cheaper to convert all different wiring and protocols (RS-232, RS-485, serial communication in general and Common and proprietery protocols like Modbus, ControlNet, etc.) and have them run over the TCP/IP network than having dedicated networks on all of those devices across a plant, or in this case, across the campus (and possibly multiple "plants."
TCP/IP network is scaleble, and second, it can be secured (with proper isolation and expertise). It is also transparent, i.e. multiple typs of physical wiring/connection scheme can be used. Other industrial protocols (yes, there IS a protocol involved in that actuator valve you mentioned, and so does other devices) often are either proprietary or are "narrow-band" type protocol designed to run across a serial cable. Running multiple networks on dedicated medium requires more wiring than single TCP/IP network. It also makes it difficult to do upgrade/equipment change-out in the future. When changing out industrial equipments down the road (we're talking about like 10 years later), technology changes, making it unreasonable to put up a wiring that will need to be changed.
In addition, there are usually limitations on the physical length of the wiring on the medium. Most protocols not based of TCP/IP model tends to be limited on the length on its own, requiring a repeater if it needs to travel longer distance (we're only talking about more than 250 ft). TCP/IP network, on the oter hand, has switches and routers in place, they act as the repeaters when needed. TCP/IP can also be run on fiber, expanding the distance a lot farther than traditional copper wires. Across the campus control with direct serial cable might work (RS-485, for those who are famaliar with them), but management cost is a lot higher today using pure serial wiring network than new "virtual" network resides on TCP/IP infrastructure. Signals can be re-routed without signigicant physical re-wiring as well.
Let's also talk a bit about the "why" we need to have the on that actuator valve connected to the network. Modern campus-wide (or plant wide) controls are monitored and done by a centralized control room. They monitor and issue commands to run the equipments to maximize the use of equipments while minize the cost of operation (wages = expansive cost). Actual machine controls(flow control, automatic safety switches) are done by PLC or other embedded devices on site. They are your field operators today! The commands are issues by the central Control Room to those controllers, and they in term control individual devices (pumps, valves, power breakers, you name it). If my descriptions does not convince you how complicated it can be, it is. To have dedicated control networks on those devices, which are not necessarily on the same protocols, especially not at one location, only add cost to the control system. It is better to "out-source" the transmission medium to a more transparant network platform and let the networking people to ensure its constant uptime.
I'm sure I do not have to mention the use of VOIP, audio/video, survalience (security) on the TCP/IP network. We already beat the subject to death.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Not "the internet", the TCP/IP infrastructure.
The reason is the same that you want your toilets, lab sinks, coffee machines and drinking fountains on the same, unified water supply network, rather than seperate ones for each. Sure, if the watermains break, you loose ALL of those, but on the other hand, you have the budgets of n networks, rather than one, to make sure that won't happen.
Ok (Score:1, Troll)
Does Harvard have a nuclear reactor? That would be a "not so good" technology to have on the public network. just seems that the current trend to give everything an IP address is a step in the wrong direction.
Reactors (Score:1)
Re:Ok (Score:2)
Re:Ok (Score:2)
Re:Ok (Score:1)
Giving everything an IP address is not an intrinsically bad idea. It _would_ be a bad idea if the hypothetical nuclear reactor was controlled remotely, but do you think anyone would be that stupid? If we were to remove everything that _could_ be misconfigured, broken, or hacked we would quickly run out of possessions (the first thing gone would be your beloved computer.)
To convince you that it is not intrinsically stupid, look at this
thumbnail strategy for protecting the IP connected water mains.
Case 1
Re:Ok (Score:1)
150-200TB per day? (Score:1)
Re:150-200TB per day? (Score:2)
Re:150-200TB per day? (Score:2)
Seeing as how we're talking about college, I'd say s/man/boy/, unless you're talking about the profs.
Go down the street to MIT (Score:1)
Re:Go down the street to MIT (Score:1)
Re:Go down the street to MIT (Score:1)
If only you knew. (Score:4, Informative)
Those custom apps he brags about? They break, are poorly documented, and we're in fact trying to move away from them as much as possible. Testing of major network changes is so poorly done as to be nonexistant in many cases. And let's not even get into the uptime of critical systems like email and webspace (those have been down for hours at a time, days in a row for week son end).
And those staff numbers? Inflated. We are really short-staffed.
Re:If only you knew. (Score:1)
Re:If only you knew. (Score:1)
I am available (Score:2)
Re:wrong group ... (Score:2)
It's probably a good thing that the FAS NOC is moving away from its various home brewed bits (to Cisco Network Registrar [harvard.edu]) but they are *not* the bits the Networld World article mentions.
And none of that has to do with the slowness and downtime for the FAS email servers or the downtime of the web server.
Is this really a good idea? (Score:1)
Sounds like they're introducing a single point of vulnerability. In one fell swoop you could take out a lot of important systems.
ARGH!!!! LIES!! (Score:2)
Look closely ... operations not architecture (Score:2)
We have long polled network interfaces using SNMP to count the octets crossing interfaces from which we create real-time bandwidth-capacity graphs as a baseline to measure our overall network use.
Or as net arch would say: We use MRTG.
Re:oh, neat....Harvard's network (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Harvard Network Reliability (Score:2)
The network was great my freshman year ('99-'00). Part of that may be because I was coming from a dial-up connection, but that year was really the year that Napster started to take off. Latency was very low (pinging In either my sophomore o