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Why Linux Won't Ever Be Mainstream
from the damn-I-wish-my-hewlett-packard-scanner-worked dept.
So I collect anime cels. I have a fairly nice collection now. Cels from Tenchi, Trigun, Ranma 1/2 among others. It's a fun hobby that I find gets me a little more involved with some of my favorite shows to have a little piece of them. Sometimes it can be horribly expensive, but often really nice cels for just a few bucks can be found.
But what do you do with these cels? Well, I framed several. Museum-quality glass ensures that they'll stick around for awhile. But I have dozens of cels, and I travel a lot ... so scanning them in and making nice wallpaper images for my desktop sure will make KDE look nice. So with that in mind I began hopping around looking for an inexpensive flatbed scanner. And I thought I had found it in the HP 3300C. At only $80, it seemed like a great deal: I didn't need 2400x2400 scans or anything, I just wanted to get 1280x1024 images off 8.5x11 cels. A quick glance through /etc/usbmgr/usbmgr.conf revealed a line for it, so I figured I was all set. OK, that was a major mistake on my part -- I should have looked a little harder, I just made the ill-fated assumption that a line in this file meant someone had made the 3300C work under Linux.
I was wrong. I've set up USB devices before. I've set up scanners before. And this one bugger wasn't about to work. So I figured I'd hop over to google and search around and see if I was missing something. After browsing around a few sites that provided me with no information whatsoever, I stumbled upon Linux-USB. Duh, the source, right? Probably should have looked there in the first place, but hey, I never claimed to be a genius. My heart sunk when I found the supported scanners list and found my cheapy HP 3300C, conveniently listed with an icon so obvious that even a moron could clearly see that his quest to scan in cels was going to be fruitless: The Red X of failure.
The site helpfully provides a little more info link with a discussion board that I figured I would read to see if perhaps work was underway. And this is where I made a shocking discovery. And if I was HP, I sure wouldn't be taking the abuse that so many people are dishing out. The discussion starts off fine. An email address to someone at HP to ask for specs. A comment about how HP should make their specs available since they are supposedly an Open Source company (even having gone so far as hiring Bruce Perens to do ... something. Well nobody is really sure what, but he does something for Linux at HP ;). The next comment was a user who returned his scanner. Another user glad that he found this page before he bought the scanner. Lucky bastard. I wish I had.
But this is where things turned sour. The messages turn from disappointed to just plain mean. HP employees are called bastards and assholes. Threats are made. They are referred to as lots of words that I would happily use in friendly conversation with a friend, but never post in a public forum read by strangers.
And thats where all of this is leading. Intermixed with this embarassing dialogue is legitimite stuff. One guy wants to write a driver. Others provide links to various support channels at HP where perhaps a request for the scanner specs might not come up empty.
But somehow I can't get the bad taste out of my mouth. I see it on Slashdot all the time, and I find it really disheartening. Its an attitude that many people have: The "You Owe Me" attitude. Certainly I'm not exempt from this attitude. If I pay for a device, dammit I want specs. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to call a company with thousands of employees "cockmasters" just because they don't want to support my operating system.
I've met a lot of people who've written a lot of open source code. Window Managers. Ethernet Drivers. X extensions. GUI Toolkits. And these people are almost always totally cool. Sure they have attitudes. They are pompous. They are proud of their work. And in most cases they deserve many more accolades then they get. But I think most of them wouldn't say something like "HP seems to be still smeeling Gates' asshole rather than coming out of it. Beware Hp, Linux is going strong and unless you recognize that and properly support your hardware under Linux, you are going to Piss in your pants one day." I'm embarassed to run the same OS as 'Casablanca' who provided Linux-USB with that choice quote. No doubt that Linux is going strong. But what does that have to do with the offensive statement that leads off? How does saying that advance anything?
This is at its worst in public forums. Mailing lists are often much more civil. I'm not saying always because every mailing list with more then a few people explodes into flames every now and then. But at least then you're talking about a private forum. There's just something about a public web board that brings the worst out in some people. Its unfortunate that because you don't sign your name, some people interpret that as a license to be a jerk.
I'm not saying drop the attitude. Linux is a superior operating system to the one that HP usually supports. But that attitude is a double edged sword. If welded childishly, it will hurt us all. I don't care if 'Casablanca' chops off his own leg, but damn it sucks that his attitude might hurt the dozens of other posters on that forum who all paid cash money for their HP 3300C scanner and may never see it supported.
The reality is that HP sells scanners and printers almost entirely to users of that "Other" OS. Writing a driver probably won't make them much money: especially not for a scanner that is going for less then a hundred bucks. Of course, releasing their specs costs them next to nothing, and for a company that has been working hard to embrace Open Source and Linux, it certainly is something cool that they could do.
In conclusion, I had to boot up windows to use my scanner. The Diablo 2 Expansion is the only other software on the partition. I scanned in a half dozens cels, rebooted, and did the rest of my work in The GIMP. It took me much much longer to get things done then I would have liked and it definitely detracts from the usability of the scanner. The scans were fine, but the overhead it required forces me not to recommend the scanner to anyone. But if HP would release the specs to this thing, I know there would be a lot of happy people besides me. HP makes quality hardware and the price is definitely right on this one.
If they don't, I have a hard time blaming them. I know that the bitchers and moaners that are so loud in random forums throughout the net (and yes, even here on Slashdot. Maybe especially here) are actually a minority. The vast majority of Linux Developers and Users are sane and calm. Sure, we have that inner glow of satisfaction that comes from knowing we have uptimes of 200+ days and we only reboot to try out newer devel kernels. But we don't feel the need to call people names because we don't get our way. I admit that I've stepped over the line more times then I should, but I try to be cool about it. And I hope others do to.
Soapbox mode: off.
not just Linux users (Score:3)
This won't stop Linux from becoming mainstream - simply because it is normal, and reflects society at large, not just users of Linux.
Thoughts From an Ex-HP Person (Score:3)
Another program managed resources on high-end LaserJet hard drives. It's possible to write a comparable program in Perl or Python or Java or Ruby -- all it takes is a TCP connection to port 9100 on the printer and a few commands to update, delete, and query stored information. This program was a big part of the marketing literature. It plain didn't work.
HP has some very smart people, but they've sold off big parts of the company in recent years. There are definitely people there who "get it", but there are also managers who claim (direct quote):
Blame the users who are quick to flame, they deserve it. But HP as a company has a lot of problems of its own. If they pressured the company that actually made the scanner, there might be Linux drivers for it. As it is, there's probably no one at HP that even has a contact at the other company.
Well, there's that, and then... (Score:4)
A lot of people have been "raised" on DOS and Windows 9x. Why would they ever want to change to Linux? They're used to 9x, and whether or not they really like it is another matter entirely.
Linux will remain a niche OS because, for most people, there's really no reason to use it.
- A.P.
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There are newbies, and there are lusers (Score:3)
1) The newbie who understands that he has to learn something (although he may not know how much) about what he is trying to use. He's willing to put forth some reasonable amount of effort, and if he throws his hands up in disgust, it's usually a sign that the thing in question is poorly designed.
2) The luser who insists on use without learning or thinking, who wants the computer (or whatever) to be a magic psychic box that just makes things happen.
I will help a person in the first group as far as they're willing to go (within the limits of what I know... I know at least one guy that started from zero, I helped him get started and now he's hacking away on X doing things I just manage to comprehend). The second group I have no time for. You can talk and explain till you're blue in the face and it will do you (and them) zero good.
The trouble comes with people who treat both groups as equivalent. They remind me of college professors who say "There's the reading for the course, test is on May 2, see you in four months." Excuse me? What the hell are you doing in charge of a class if you're not going to teach? If all you want is to do research, fine, but don't then try to claim you're a "teacher" too.
Wanted: the guts to throw it all away (Score:5)
Was it perfect? No.
Was it the best tool for certain jobs? Absolutely. In fact it turned out to be "pretty good, and easier too" for just about everything computer novices needed, and there was something there for a lot of power users too (particularly multimedia). Look at HyperCard. Look at ClarisWorks. Hell, look at MacWrite and MacPaint in the context of their times.
Apple put a lot of thought and research into designing MacOS (which was still just The System back then). Much of it has been imitated or outright ripped off. After using Macs for over 10 years, Windows and *nix for 7, I'd say the following:
Every place MacOS fails is because Apple either decided "you must do it this way, no matter what you think you want, because it's better" (example: lack of keyboard shortcuts in menus) or because they were imitating, not innovating (replacing SCSI components with IDE, IMHO, ultimately hurt the Mac).
What we need is for somebody to write a whole new OS around the Linux kernel. The first goal of this OS should be "the command line is always useful, but never necessary." The second goal should be "this OS does not try to outthink the user, but think with the user."
Essentially the usual Linux tools would still be there, with a whole new user-interface layer on top of it. Sound familiar? It should. [apple.com]
It's always a fatal mistake to think your company can't learn anything from the competition. The fact that Linux is not a "company" makes it no less true.
Re:agreed. (Score:3)
Ahh, yes. The "good-old-days", when RAM was $500/KB, computers were hulking beasts, and nobody owned them. I'm sorry, I don't want to go back to that time. You can if you want -- I'll keep my whizzo hardware, thanks.
They are marketing tacticts used by companies to sell computers. If Suzan Smith wanted to send e-mail and surf the net and all that was available to her was UNIX she would still buy that computer and she wouldn't complain about it being too hard to use because it realy isn't too hard.
A command line can be entirely as easy to use as a GUI! You have fallen for the biggest lie ever created in the computer industry -- "If's it's got windows, a mouse, and buttons, it's easy to use!" This is a fundamental blockage in the brains of the *nix community, and until they clear it out, *nixes will forever be relegated to the nerd ghetto.
It isn't windows and mouses and buttons that make a computer easy to use; it's the careful, reasoned, well-thought-out interface between man and machine, the tasks the man wants the machine to do, and the facilitation of those tasks.
There are a few hard-and-fast rules (Read Tog for more on that), but mostly it's about designing for people, not machines. A fundamental example: the computer's filesystem is built heirarchal, and that works for a computer. It thinks that way. Humans (by which I mean non-programmers) don't think that way. They think in amorphous, nebulous, loosely grouped items that apply to projects, tasks, or goals.
We've built the computer to act like a file cabinet, forgetting that a file cabinet is a poor solution to a problem, not the best that could be done with the available technology. Rather than make the computer a *better* file cabinet, we've slavishly copied it, and as a result, we have computers that are hard to use on the most basic level: the file manager.
The more "easy" you make computers to the more ignorant the users will be and the more "harder" using a computer will seem. Because the more about a computer you hide the more complex a computer seems to it's user.
That is patently ridiculous. All complicated devices become simpler over time -- we don't become dumber, we become more productive with fewer resources and do things faster than before. You see the computer as an end in itself, whereas most people see it as a time-saving device (a better, faster typewriter, basically) and think no further than that. I don't accuse you, neccessarily, it's natural for a computer professional to dispair over the sad state of the users. It's probably a similar feeling your mechanic might have if you are one of those people who go 4-5K miles between oil changes -- "What's wrong with him? Doesn't he know he's KILLING his car?!?"
Re:Not Exactly (Score:3)
Griz are out for number one, because they live alone. They're not social animals.
The most important thing people in this society *must* come to understand is that the good of the whole is *more important* than the good of oneself.
If we don't start behaving in a manner that benefits society, then this society is destined to collapse. It has happened in the past, and it *will* happen again.
Now of course, someone is going to go on some riff about the evils of socialism or communism or some other dippy understanding of what I've said. Just please note that I didn't say anything at all about what the political structure would look like.
What I will say is that "good for society" *can* align with "good for oneself." The two are not mutually exclusive.
Let me Venn diagram it: two circles, overlapping. One circle is "good for society." The other is "good for oneself." What we want is to maximize the area of overlap, and position ourselves in it.
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Symptomatic of a larger problem (Score:5)
It's part of the 'going to hell in a handbasket' problem we've got going in this society.
The root cause seems to boil down to one thing: a lot of people these days are out for #1, and don't give a fuck for the consequences that affect others.
Maybe it's because those of us that try to play nice are too patient, too forgiving, and too unwilling to get in their faces and *demand* that they play nice. Instead, we let them walk all over us.
Myriad examples: the assholes with their 110dB subwoofer ripping through residential neighbourhoods at 2AM. The pissant little fuck who takes 30 items through the 10 items or less till. People who don't hold doors open when you both arrive at the same time. Dangerous fucking assholes running red lights. Ah, it's aggravating just thinking of all the examples.
Why do these people act like jerks? Because they can.
Perhaps it's because they're so powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Between their boss and the government, they can't fart without permission. So they take out their frustrations by pissing off everyone else. Maybe that's it.
Bottom line, at any rate, is that it's time for the nice guys to put their foot down and demand better from others. Don't like the behaviour you see? Don't be a milquetoast -- stand up and demand better!
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Re:I wish.... (Score:3)
The GM exec said, "if cars were built like computers, they would go 200 miles per hour, get 100 miles to the gallon, float on water, fly through space, and explode every 10 hours killing everyone inside."
The fact is that whether or not it strokes your muyopic ego to think of end users (such as, say, my friend the neuroscientist, who hates desktop computers and has trouble with her email - yet programs MRI scanners fluently) as dumb, it is *far far far* easier to redesign computers than to redesign end users.
Re:I wish.... (Score:5)
This is the attitude that kills Linux in the mainstream: users are still dumb . Nothing could be further from the truth.
The simple reality is that most "dumb users" use the computer as a tool rather than a hobby or a religion: They want to get on, do what they need to do, and get off. Calling someone who does that "dumb" is, well, dumb, and secondly it totally misses the point of mainstream users and what their motivations are (and it's why Linux isn't a blip on the radar for home users apart from the "computers define my manhood" type). Are you dumb if you don't pull and fix your own transmission? Do you make your own electricity or are you one of the dumb ones that just hooks into the city's grid? Did you make your own engine control system, or are you a dumb person with just a stock car that gets you from point A to point B?
this is nothing new... (Score:5)
1) Check the availability lists before you buy, duh. When I got a scanner, I checked out the SANE page and went down the list, and cross-referenced that with what was up on ebay. I got a microtek E6 for 60$, and it can do 8.5x13 at 600 dpi with great color, and it has totally native support in the Gimp.
Linux has great support for sound cards, video cards, that sort of thing, but the second you stray into more exotic territory (scanners, digital cameras, etc) you gotta check the pages.
2) _Everyone_ is an asshole on forums, not just linux users. HP is not going to drop linux support because of some stupid web forum. Are windows users any more polite? What about mac users? I just think this is a non-issue. I really doubt that HP is subscribing to the linux-usb list, and if they are they aren't going to say "waahhh, they called us cockmasters... no drivers for j00!" Call them up. Have a friendly chat. You run a website that some people have heard of, this lets you do things. Bruce Perens works there? then get _him_ to talk to them! Take advantage of your connections, don't just be another email.
Is this just a Linux phenomenon? (Score:5)
Kiddies - shut up, let those of us who at least pretend to be mature sort these things out
Re:This is absolutely true. (Score:5)
"Excuse me, sir, where is Third and Hawkins?"
"Well, it's documented on every map of the city that there is. Maybe you should have done the research before you came around here, bothering me and asking me for my help. Why don't you go buy a fucking map?"
*punch*
agreed. (Score:5)
we've all been guilty of it, and its time for the insane zealotry to go.
yes, MS is the evil empire. Yes, Linux is the "better" OS.
but nobody wants to use something where they are made to feel stupid when they first sit down and use it.
Help and nurture newbies... Not laugh and ridicule. Leave that up to Mr. deRaadt... he's got enough venom for it.
I'd like to see this linux thing take of to the next level. We need to give the newbies and the less-computer "literate" a better hand, instead of the middle finger.
There is no feedback. (Score:4)
The Net, speaking generally, has no feedback mechanism. It has a really effective blowback mechanism, but that's it.
Feedback is when information--not data--is fed back into the system. If I'm learning how to SCUBA dive, I'll have a dive instructor watch me, critique my technique, and tell me what needs to change. That's feedback. He sees what I'm doing, separates the important from the unimportant, and gives me information back. This changes the behavior of the system for the better, and I become a competent SCUBA diver.
Blowback is when data--not information--is fed back into the system. Data, devoid of meaning. Noise, not signal. If I learn to SCUBA dive by listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn albums, well, I'm going to have a very short dive career.
The Net is a great source of data, but it's a mediocre source of information. Many sites are filled, not with people who want to carefully critique and correct each other's posts to separate out gold from dross, but a bunch of people who want to scream ``Me, Too!'' and get on Ye Olde Bandwagon... whatever the bandwagon is.
There's an old joke about two paranoids walking down the street. One of them stops and points at an innocent, innocuous shrub. "Who's in that shrub?" the first paranoid asks. The second paranoid answers, "I dunno, but I think I know the guy in there with him!"
... Blowback, not feedback.
Substitute "two loser Linux guys" for paranoids, and "Microsoft" for the shrubbery, and you've got a pretty good description of the behavior we've all seen and condemned.
A few sites--not many, but some, Slashdot among them--have tried to implement feedback mechanisms in an attempt to limit the damage blowback can cause. Moderation and meta-moderation are SLashdot's feedback mechanism.
It's a pretty badly broken mechanism, of course, but it's a helluvalot better than nothing.
Some thoughts (Score:5)
Re:Symptomatic of a larger problem (Score:3)
Or maybe it's because they're foreigners. Indeed, everywhere else in the world, except the US and maybe Canada, sales tax is already included in the displayed sales price...
Nothing new for HP... (Score:3)
Of course, YMMV. Me, I had a bad experience at a burger king in college. I haven't set foot in a burger king in eight years now.
Re:I wish.... (Score:3)
The way to get past that is education. Make it a point to teach people how this stuff works (even for windows). Then you can explain to them the difference between windows and linux.
I had a discussion with one of the users I support yesterday about why IT people limit the information they give the users. It's true, even when we try to give the users enough information, we sometimes don't do an adaquate job of it. But you just have to keep trying.
Re:This is absolutely true. (Score:5)
Me: [Insert question here]
l33t: RTFM
Me: What manuals? I'm not sure where to start. Point me to some decent manuals and I'll read them.
l33t: *massive arrogant l33t silence*
Or
Me: [Insert question here]
l33t: I think there's a document for that on linuxnewbie.org/a HOWTO for that on linuxdoc.org/a good book for that by O'Reilly that explains how to do that way better than I ever could. Have you read anything like that yet?
Me: No. Didn't know any of them existed. Thanks. *reads*
Telling people to RTFM is no good unless you actually hand them TFM first. How that little fact managed to escape the elitist bastards that run "help" channels (all of them are equally bad) is beyond me.
Re:This is absolutely true. (Score:5)
Which is why it always boggled my mind that the #[OS]Help channels were the worst place to get help on the face of the 'net. If you want to mock newbies, go to #MockTheN00bs already. I mean, come on, how fucking hard is it to type "go to linuxdoc.org and read the HOW-TO"? Really.
I hang out on the ArsTechnica forums a lot, and I do see the same questions bandied about a lot, but at least people there are willing to give you links to threads that already deal with the subject (which is good, because there are times when you just can't find what you're looking for in a search).
I'll say it again - you can't say "RTFM" until you give somebody TFM. If you do, you look like a jackass and a hypocrite. And if you're a jackass and a hypocrite, quite frankly, you are in no position to pretend to be helping people.
idealism can be a double-edged sword (Score:5)
The good thing about being an almost completely virtual community is that news and information can spread like wildfire. For example, watch what happens when a new Linux kernel is released. For the next few days, the volume of helpful and insightful traffic on Linux boards is phenomenal. People help each other and provide all kinds of evaluations of their experiences with the new kernel. It's times like that when I start to think that Katz is on-target with all of his hot air about virtual communities changing the world.
But the flip side of this virtual community is cases just like the unfortunate H-P discussion board. Here on Slashdot, we have ways of dodging the trolls. Because of the volume of comments on this site, and the number of registered users, the Slashdot system is able to filter out the trolls and their worthless comments.
Unfortunately, most feedback mechanisms employed by Fortune 500 companies don't have such mechanisms. in fact, they would be accused of filtering out negative feedback if they attempted to use a Slashdot-style moderation system.
The painful truth is that Linux consumers aren't your average consumer. They know more about how their computers work. They expect more. They're not taken in by the p.r. and the marketing as much as your average computer user.
Why is this painful? Because we often think we know it all, and we're idealists. We know how the world of computing *should* be, and we're impatient with companies or people who get in the way of that ideal.
How we as Open Source advocates deal with that frustration begs the question: are we capable of dealing with the "unenlightened" in a mature manner, or are we the spoiled hackers many people think we are?
This cuts both ways (Score:4)
Turn it around... (Score:3)
No, I'm afraid you've got it backwards. You see, to these "jerks", you're just another "jerk". The solution isn't knocking everyone in line. The solution is for people to learn to respect each other from where they're coming from.
Changing folks' attitudes are the solution. Your message makes it seem you want to go bust heads (though I grant messages can be interpreted quite differently than intended). Why? Because you're upset that others aren't appreciating you. At the root, this is the same attitude problem that the others have. You just behave differently and have developed a martyr complex as a result.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. It's just that I used to get just as worked up and have since learned that confronting folks doesn't solve anything. The solution is to change your own attitude, and ironically, by so doing you can change others.
This story really brought it home to me:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC04/Dobson.htm [context.org]
Re:You're right, act civil (Score:3)
Re:This isnt' new... (Score:3)
I've seen this kind of flame-fest ever since I started using the internet. Take usenet as an example. Outside of pr0n, I'd say more than half the posts in many unmoderated technical newsgroups are childish chatter. People call each other nasty stuff and say stupid things all the time. I think it's probably the whole anonymity of the experience. I'm certain that most of those people wouldn't use language like that to someone's face.
You're exactly right. This stuff even predates the widespread use of the internet, but as the access becomes easier, cheaper, and more wide-spread, it becomes more of a problem.
They are referred to as lots of words that I would happily use in friendly conversation with a friend, but never post in a public forum read by strangers.
Taco's point tells us a little bit about why: Many of these people don't have friendly conversations with a friend, at least not face-to-face friends. They have been socialized (or desocialiazed) by the Internet and their computer. They don't understand what tacht is, and they see others using this behavior and accept it as OK. The sad thing is that this type of behavior will eventually decrease the signal to noise ratio to the point that there will be so little useful information on some of these sites that people will stop using them.
Re:This isnt' new... (Score:3)
"Huh? Blue Screen of wha-"
Re:Best of both worlds = None of either? (Score:3)
Re:Some thoughts (Score:4)
If only everyone did...
A similar check: imagine you've sent your mail, and receive a personal, conciliatory reply that apologizes for whatever gripe you had and explains what's being done to prevent it in the future. Throw in a word of thanks for alerting them to the issue. Now ask yourself if you'll feel like an ass if you get that reply. If you can't definitively say "no", keep editing.
Re:This isnt' new... (Score:3)
Oy, did I ever say a mouthful. But that's a conversation for a different day.
I don't agree that the IP "isn't worth much", but it really is irrelevant in the driver world. I think what's going on is that these peripheral vendors, for whatever reason, are trying to play the same lockin games that people like Microsoft and Apple play, probably trying to milk the developers for license fees. They're missing the point, though -- fact is, it's not too likely that NVidia is loss-leadering every GeForce 3 chip that goes out the door, and HP's scanners have no place in the developer-licensing equation at all.
Fact is, HP has gained a disgruntled customer. This is not a good thing, and it's time companies like this realized that they are in fact screwing people over.
/Brian
Re:Nothing new for HP... (Score:3)
HP, in its' current form, seems to be quite happily making products for consumers, and making the drivers necessary to reach the largest single market: Win9x users. If more people used Linux, they would be forced to make drivers. However, since their goal is to make money (and what corporation doesn't want to do that), they are going to save some money and time and effort by doing what they have to to get themselves some money.
Tell me what makes you so afraid
Of all those people you say you hate
Re:Symptomatic of a larger problem (Score:3)
The same Jefferson who wrote this? "The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." [Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823]
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The attitude is everywhere (Score:4)
You get it with nearly anything. People who are fully knowledged in something, and have a chip on their shoulder, feel everyone should know something about it. So when you get what Taco described, people demanding support for Linux even though Linux still isn't a profitable operating system for many of the peripheral manufacturers. Since they know Linux well, everyone should, and therefore, there should be as much support for it as with Windows.
It's too bad, too, because without all this elitism people show on forums, and with more support and assistance with a smile, more people may migrate over, even to test it out. Systems are cheap, many have more than one computer in their houses, why not? But the demanding that there be support or you'll call the company names you used in seventh grade will just cause more harm to your operating system's PR, not only to the company, but to those who visit the forums for their new OS.
Who wants to keep Linux loaded when they see that people threaten companies because they won't support that OS? Watch how many get scared that this may happen to everything and get Windows back on the system. Double edged sword in more ways than one.
Dragon Magic [dragonmagic.net]
Re:agreed. (Score:3)
It's very unfortunate IMO that this is the case. The way I see it is if you don't know how to use the tool, either learn how or don't use it.
I keep remembering the days back in the 80's when people had comodore 64s and 386s running DOS. No one ever complained about having to type all the commands and edit .bat files etc (except MAC users :O). It was just when MS put out Windows and AOL came around that this new breed of computer users came about. It was then that the term "computer illiterate" was coined.
I'm sorry but the only reason people don't want to take the time to learn how to actually use a computer is because the companies that marketed the computer that their using told them that they're stupid and that the computer that they bought is "So easy that even some old lady on tv can use it!". It doesn't have to be this way.
User-friendliness, computer literacy, ease-of-use etc. are all just in your heads. They are marketing tacticts used by companies to sell computers. If Suzan Smith wanted to send e-mail and surf the net and all that was available to her was UNIX she would still buy that computer and she wouldn't complain about it being too hard to use because it realy isn't too hard.
The more "easy" you make computers to the more ignorant the users will be and the more "harder" using a computer will seem. Because the more about a computer you hide the more complex a computer seems to it's user.
Can anyone bring me one such person who likes Linux?
I can give you two. My two younger cousins only use their computer for sending e-mail, surfing the web etc. They both run Linux. They don't know all the shell commands, or how to program in PERL. They just know how to use WindowMaker to start up xmms, Galeon, Nautilus etc. They asked me to install Linux for them after Windows became unusable and we had to do a re-install for the X time that month.
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Garett
Re:Nothing new for HP... (Score:3)
And I thought I was the only one. My last year in college, I ordered a chicken sandwich. I bit into it and noticed a problem -- it was too crispy and light. Pulled it apart and discovered the oddest thing. The breading for the chicken was there, but inside there was no chicken!. They replaced it with a normal one but no explanation was offered for how a breading 'sleeve' could wind up on my sandwich wrapping nothing.
I haven't eaten a chicken sandwich since then -- about ten years ago.
The thing that gets me is this: I always assumed that breaded patties were made the old fashioned way -- someone grabbing a piece of meat, dragging it through some breadcrumbs, and tossing it in fryer. But such a process cannot break down in a way that yields an empty sleeve of breading. My nightmares consisted, for a while, of a factory with a Y-shaped assembly line. Down one line came soap-bar-shaped slabs of processed meat, down the other empty sleeves of breading. At the intersection was a fat sweating man. His job was to mate meat with breading, stuffing the former into the latter and sealing the result somehow. He must miss now and then...
This is absolutely true. (Score:5)
For example, back a few years ago, a friend tried to install linux, and got stuck configuring X-windows and his mouse. He went on IRC to ask for help, and got about 15 people saying "RTFM!!!!" and telling him to go back to windows if he couldn't figure out how to set up X.
So he asked where to find the manual, since he had just downloaded slackware and didn't know where anything was, and nobody replied. He gave up.
I'm trying to get him to try Debian now, but i'm sure things like this have turned off many potential Linux users.
My 2p (Score:3)
My biggest personal gripe is how people spell Microsoft. Its M-i-c-r-o-s-o-f-t, not Micro$oft, MicroShaft, Micro~1 and the one-hundred and one other variations.
You wouldn't like it if people started calling Linux, GPOO/Linsux. It looks childish, immature, stupid and above all it drops your own personal credibility and the credibility of what you're trying to advocate below the ground.
Just don't do it.
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Linux doesn't make you a better person (Score:5)
While I think that's fine if you are taking a class as a CS Major, the average user just can't put up with that crap. Their lives don't revolve around this stuff like ours do. The user ends up resentful because you made them feel stupid for asking. Why not try to help out your fellow users instead of shunning them just because they are lost? You aren't a BETTER PERSON because you installed your OS off of a debian CD than a windows CD. You are a BETTER PERSON because you took the time to help out someone.
I'm trying to put this whole philosophy into action. That's why I've set up the site in my sig. I don't want users to have to search for hours to find a program that gets the job done or find the command listed in some obscure man page. Most of the documentation avaliable for linux is useless to them because they don't understand the terminology involved. It's like telling someone to read a technical journal when what they want is the Popular Science version, because they aren't a professional like you and I.
MAC Suks! Winblows Sucks! PDP-11's Suck! (Score:5)
However, quite a few people don't get it. Either they're too young to know anything else, or too immature to take a large view of things. These people are always the loudest, so it is assumed that they make up the bulk of that platform's user base, even if they don't.
This is a problem that has existed on every platform. (How many MAc zealots do you know?) However, it is even more of a problem for Linux because of the nature of Linux Development. Since Linux development depends (for the most part) on open code written by volunteers, the community is much more dependant on the good graces of software and hardware vendors to support Linux.
Mac developers only have to deal with Apple on a regular basis. (Of course, they may not be the most mature people either..). But Linux developers have to deal with the entire community, and the morons shout loudest. Many companies may decide that it's not worth listening to all the morons to find the one or two people who are really interested in working with them. Others may decide (as many people have done with the Mac) that since you can only hear the morons, the entire user base must (by default) be morons.
So I guess that this is a problem that won't go away, because it happens on every platform. But the open nature of the Linux community makes it much more visible. Let's hope that in the future, a rising Linux user base leads companies to want to ignore the morons, or at least just mod them down....
Re:This isnt' new... (Score:3)
As the popularity of Linux increases, a continually larger portion of the user base will be even less and less technical. It is these users who will be frustrated with lack of hardware support and other such issues, and will not be in a position to do much about it except vent at support reps. As Rob says, this is the drag on adoption by vendors. It isn't the developers who have made great contributions to Linux, that are the offenders here. It's those who lack either the motivation, or slikk to contribute to the development who see postings like 'Linux Driver Unavailable' and have no other recourse but to object loudly and sometimes offensively, that are at fault here.
It really is a catch-22. As the non-technical userbase of linux grows, the incidents of this sort of thing will become more frequent, and as these incidents become fore frequent, the hardware manufacturers will look at their cost benefit analysys and not bother withlinux, in turn reducing the speed of Linux adoption. At some point, however there will be an equilibrium reached, where the speed with which the userbase is growing, will become constant, and eventually the userbase will be of sufficient size to warrant development of Linux drivers for hardware, by vendors of that hardware. Infortunately, the progress to that end might be slowed to a snails pace by the type of behavior that Rob mentions. I disagree, however, that Linux will Never become mainstream. It's progress to that end will simply become extremely slow perhaps to the point where it's influence will become insignificant. I certainly hope this prediciton doesn't come to pass though...
--CTH
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Re:This isnt' new... (Score:5)
I think what's going on is that these peripheral vendors, for whatever reason, are trying to play the same lockin games that people like Microsoft and Apple play, probably trying to milk the developers for license fees.
That's an old game for peripheral manufacturers, and one that doesn't work so well any more. The video card people, the sound card people, the printer people, the scanner people -- they've all played that game in the past. Those were the bad-old-days, though, when every program came with a half dozen driver disks just to support your printer or sound card.
Since then, we've evolved into a standards-based commodity market for peripherals. (And I hate to say it, but MS kicked off this whole trend with Windows 3.1.) Basically every peripheral out there must conform to (more-or-less) open standards, such as TWAIN, DirectX, or the Win32 printing API. And it's considered the responsibility of the manufacturer to supply drivers which provide that conformance.
There are essentially no developers for the HP scanner outside of Hewlett-Packard itself. Similarly, there are practically no developers for the latest SB Live sound card outside of Creative, and with the exception of some game companies out there, there is nobody developing a thing for your latest 3D video card.
The developers working for the manufacturer have to write the driver software, so that all of the other developers in the world can work with their hardware without paying any license fees.
The reason these companies won't give you the specs for their hardware isn't that they're worried you'll actually write an application which uses it -- it's that their corporate culture, with 40+ years in the hardware vending business, tells them "don't give out the specs, it makes it easier for our competitors to duplicate it, or even extend it".
I agree with you, BTW, that this IP really isn't worth as much as they think it is. They would have a happier, and more loyal customer base if they were to give out the specs, so that we know we can always write our own drivers, even 20 years from now. They are screwing us over, by locking us in to their drivers, which they have no obligation to support on past, future, or alternate operating systems.
Not Exactly (Score:3)
It's part of the 'going to hell in a handbasket' problem we've got going in this society.
Sort of. You see, that 'phenomenon' does not exist, or at least not as far as I can tell. I would be very interested if you can show one way society is 'going to hell.' And Taco's does not count, as I shall show later. You see, for whatever reason, we illogical humans think that today is worse than yesterday. "Oh the times, oh the morals" as Cicero said. You see, they ain't. There was teenage pregnancy in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and etc, just as today. There were divorces, JUST as common as today, stretching into the very, very distant past. People stole, murdered, and were rude and hateful to one another for as long as humanity has been around. Allright, fine for me to say this, show me proof, since I am the one postulating. Very well, my proof is This Book [amazon.com] by one Richard Shenkman. Read it, it's enlightening.
The root cause seems to boil down to one thing: a lot of people these days are out for #1, and don't give a fuck for the consequences that affect others.
Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome to life. All life, human or otherwise, is governed by the rules of evolution (except in certain states, see your local laws for details). In evolution, we have this thing called survival of the fittest. Therefore, if you are not fit, you don't survive. How are you fit? By looking out for yourself first, and everyone else last. And I mean everyone else. Now we humans like to think we're above that sort of thing, but it's awfully damn hard to just drop a few couple billion (OK, I exaggerate) years of evolution. That means that although we are social animals, and work in groups, we still look after ourselves first and everything else last.
Yes, they are annoying, aren't they? Well, don't worry, at least there're people to get under his skin, too, just like he gets under ours.
Perhaps it's because they're so powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Between their boss and the government, they can't fart without permission. So they take out their frustrations by pissing off everyone else. Maybe that's it.
If you're powerless, it's because you let yourself be. Every day your life is filled with decisions, and you will make those decisions, even if your choice is to not choose, you are still choosing. If you don't like your life, start making different choices. The government makes a convenient scapegoat, and we all need one of those, don't we (see point two)? But scapegoating solves nothing, and that is something which I hope should be self-evident.
Bottom line, at any rate, is that it's time for the nice guys to put their foot down and demand better from others. Don't like the behaviour you see? Don't be a milquetoast -- stand up and demand better!
Real world trolling (Score:5)
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3
Re:You're right, act civil (Score:3)
That message is encoded using "h 4 x 0 r - 5 p 3 4 |<" technology, which is a trademark (tm) of RSA Labs, Inc. Decoding the message is a violation of the DMCA and you will be prosecuted accordingly. Explaining the encoding scheme is another crime in and of itself, and charges will be filed regarding that act as well.
Incedentally, this message is encoded in ROT-26 and any attempt to decrypt it will also be investigated.
___
Why I'm changing to Linux (Score:3)
So I've begun using Linux Mandrake at home. Is it the best at any one thing? Probably not. Does it do lots of things pretty well. Yes. Is it hard to learn? Yes, I think so. I don't want to have to switch, because Linux is a niche market. But I also don't want to be treated like a moron by the 'other' company selling the most popular OS right now, so see ya later MS! Maybe if they can win back my support by once again showing me some respect, as well as respect for everyone out there, then maybe I'll switch back. But going forward, I'll take difficult over disrespected.
P.S. Disrespect for what your users want will make a big difference in the end. Smith & Wesson paid attention to what some politicians and special interests groups wanted, gun locks on all new guns, but their actual customers didn't want such a thing. Guess which gun manufacturer is having the worst time selling their products now, despite their long-standing reputation for quality products for the 'masses'...
Re:idealism can be a double-edged sword (Score:3)
You sir have just summed up the headline to the article in 4 sentences. Please explain to me how you intend on making the 99.9% of "average consumers" know more about their computers.
Face it, people *don't* want to know more about their computers! It's a box that does it's thing, like a TV or Microwave. People don't care how stuff gets to the screen they just want it there.
Your average consumer doesn't want to be running
And the idiots inherit the earth (Score:3)
Gotta love democracy. Everyone gets a say, even those who by all logical argument shouldn't.
You're right, act civil (Score:3)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re:Symptomatic of a larger problem (Score:3)
Sitting at 2-lane red light in DC. We're in the right lane. I'm in passenger side and Brian is driving. Geo Metro. White. Listening to "Fuck Tha Police" with the window half down. They pulled up on our left. Their window was partially open as well. The music was not loud. It wasn't quiet, either. But Brian and I could hear each other talking.
cranked so loud that it can be heard in the next county -- Yes. I'm sure many persons in Fairfax, Montgomery and Prince George's counties were enjoying our music that night. Sure am glad we got those 160,000 watt 74,000 dB amps and speakers installed.
They were probably trying to teach you some manners. -- Yes, you're right. They probably go around showing off their "piece" to all sorts of rude folks, hoping to instill in their minds some manners. How silly of me for overlooking such a blatant attempt, on their part, to make the world a better place. Don't I feel silly.
Your one of the *causes* of the "fuck you" society we're living in, buddy. -- We all are. You're no better, with your assuming nature and condescending attitude.
Oh, and it's You're, not Your. Just trying to help. Though maybe it would be more effective if I pulled a gun on you? After all, that's such a wonderful teaching instrument when it comes to educating persons on the finer and more proper ways of life, like manners and spelling.
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Re: agreed. (Score:5)
Anyway... you can find the help if you need it. I've been using Linux since 1996, and if help is hard to find now, it was harder to find then. I recommend reading books, although I could never get into it myself. No book will ever tell you to "RTFM" - you're already doing that.
To you and the AC that replied - if you need to be pointed in the right direction, or have a question that you'd like answered, I'm open to email. fscked@leg.md.prestige.net - remove the leg. (protection against spam bots).
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Re:Symptomatic of a larger problem (Score:5)
I always hold the door, although it doesn't irritate me when people don't. It's not considerate, but it's not *rude* either. It just is.
The problem, though, with confronting people when they do something asshole-ish (like cut you off, or take 30 items through the 10 item checkout, or sit there and bitch at the girl running the register because they were charged tax and they don't think they should be) is that, by nature, they're assholes, and you can't predict what they're going to do.
True story: A friend of mine and I were sitting at a red light in DC when a car full of gangstas pulled up beside us. We happened to be listening to NWA's "Fuck Tha Police". For some reason, these gangstas were offended that two white boys were listening to rap, and one of them pulled a gun and held it up to the window. I ducked down, not wanting to die that night. Luckily, Brian, for some reason not sensing the fact that these weren't people he shouldn't be fucking with, opened the glove box and pulled out an ice scraper and held it up to the window. The gangstas starting laughing (thank god) and drove off (running the red light, of course). Another example of how our society is going to hell in a handbasket.
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Re:This isnt' new... (Score:3)
I've seen this kind of flame-fest ever since I started using the internet. Take usenet as an example. Outside of pr0n, I'd say more than half the posts in many unmoderated technical newsgroups are childish chatter. People call each other nasty stuff and say stupid things all the time. I think it's probably the whole anonymity of the experience. I'm certain that most of those people wouldn't use language like that to someone's face.
However, I don't think this is what stands in the way of more companies accepting and adopting Linux. One must hope that 1) people are less nasty in direct communications with companies like HP, and 2) that if employees are reading such mindless chatter, they realize that this is typical of the internet and not reflective of only Linux users. Instead, I think what prevents some companies from fully embracing Linux is customer base. If my company makes a computer product, and only 1% of all interested users say they would like to use my product with Linux, why should I bother to support it? Because Windows is already firmly entrenched, you must first win the hearts of the consumers before you can sway companies.
GreyPoopon
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Dumbed down? Read the Kernel Source! (Score:3)
Is the SUSE version of Linux "dumbed down"? I looked very hard at the Kernel source and it appears to still be just as "smarted up" as ever. Am I missing something? I went into the text configuration files and they all appear to still be just as "smart" as ever. When I put on the scroll mouse I was still able to go into the text config file and enable it with KDE.
Here is a distribution that was dumbed down pretty successfully, but I (a somewhat expert user, ran a text only system for 8 years) was still able to get into the "smart" text config files and do what I want. From what I understand, this is the case with all the "dumb" distributions. Give me root access and a terminal and I can be just as "smart" with any distribution.
Re:agreed. (Score:5)
M$=EE: Agreed.
Linux="Better": But is it really? Is it better for everyone, or just geeks?
It seems established as the OS of choice for those with the knowhow to handle a CLI and to configure a system to their liking. That's present company.
But for people who don't know the difference between an OS and a windowing system, who don't want to learn how to configure a system but rather want to use it right out of the box, who got a computer so they could send e-mail and look at web pages and type business letters and scan pictures of the kids, maybe handle finances, all with as little overhead (of time and brain power) as possible -- these are the bulk of computer users. Can anyone bring me one such person who likes Linux?
I'm a drooling Mac user myself, so I really don't know what I'm talking about. That's why I'm asking and not telling. But this is not a trivial issue -- if you make a technology that is theoretically "superior" from a technical standpoint but don't provide an easy way for people to use it, the job ain't done yet. And Mr. Wigginz is right on -- no one likes being made to feel stupid.
(Congratulations, you've just bought the best car on the market! See all those empty spaces under the hood? You can install any carboretur, radiator, transmission, and catalytic converter you want! The customer's always right! What, you don't have 31337 m3ch4n1x ski11z? Get off the road, luser!)
([And I'll tell you one thing -- ain't no way in hell my mom's gonna go looking on discussion forums for a scanner driver! The blueberry iMac was hard enough for her to learn how to use already.])
This isnt' new... (Score:5)
Linux doesn't support my internal alcatel NIC. Do I scream at alcatel for it? No. They are under no obligation to write the drivers, especially when it's costing them money to do so. Benefits aren't necessarily going to come out of them, so... why bother?
Corporations are under no obligation. Do your homework before you get a product. It's that simple.
If you fsck up, well... use windows. it won't kill you.
Screw 3...
Reverse Engineering (Score:3)
The only thing that having somebody else's specs does is let you see how, in high-level terms, they made it work. But nowadays, most of this is publicized (eg. nVidia improved memory bandwidth on the GeForce3 with a crossbar memory controller). So all that it boils down to is the ability to make cards that are 100% compatible, but not identical.
But any engineer will tell you that there are always things they would like to do different. So, while a new feature ("framebuffer blit engine" for older video features, for exxample) would be cloned by everybody if the word of it existing got out (and it got out fast, and was subsequently cloned, so now virtually all video cards have one of these), the implementations will almost always be different.
And it's always easier to hire 5 engineers than 1 good reverse-engineer, and reverseing takes a lot more effort (around 100x for some cases, meaning more staff).
I should point out here that reverse-engineering software (IE the drivers) is actually much simpler than hardware, although still challenging at best. In most cases, this is what happens, the actual competitors dismantle the drivers to see how it works, so really it doesn't protect them any.
Re:Real world trolling (Score:5)
I think what people have to realize is that Linux just isn't for everyone. Even though I have two different flavors of Linux on my machine right now, I still tend to gravitate towards Windows. It's not a bad OS, it's definitely not evil (most of the time, at least). The majority of the time I like to browse the Web while I'm working (I have a very short attention span). And, IMHO, IE is the better browser. I've also become accustomed to all the fancy extras in the Windows version of AIM. So, while I love doing coding and whatnot in Linux, I usually choose Windows because it fulfills my needs.
Not everyone concerned about customizing every aspect of their OS or how long they can keep their computer running before it implodes. Linux users have to understand this. Church's don't recruit parishioners by laughing in their faces ("Haha! My l33t god r0x0rs your deity's ass!") or forcing them to convert. They get the most numbers when they just introduce their doctrines and answer questions. I was almost scared away from the Linux scene, too. I don't like elitist loud mouths. You can have your underground. Luckily I'm a very stubborn person and I'm determined to master Linux...with your help or without.
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Re: agreed. (Score:5)
I have to say that, as a newbie myself, and a girl, it's hard to ask questions without feeling as though everyone thinks I am an idiot. An intelligent person can recognize that Linux is a superior operating system, and on that note, look to learn more about it and implement it on his or her system. But being a newbie, even a smart newbie, is no fun. Especially when you crave vast amounts of knowledge that the "l337" would rather not give over to one who might not be worthy.
For anyone with half a brain, every drop of information in this technologically growing world is like water to a flower, and those with the sustenance would do well to share. Perhaps those of us left in the dark could be an asset to the community, if someone would just let us in.
~Carna