NYC Crosswalk Buttons are Inoperative

cdneng2 writes "NY Times has an article that New York crosswalk push buttons are actually ineffective. Apparently, New York City deactivated most of the pedestrian buttons long ago with the emergence of computer-controlled traffic signals. From the article, 'More than 2,500 of the 3,250 walk buttons that still exist function essentially as mechanical placebos, city figures show.' Well, apparently New York city isn't the only city like this. I guess the answer lies in the same reason why people press the elevator button more than once."

Most Dangerous Intersections

Surprisingly enough, NY doesn't have any intersections listed in the top 10 most dangerous intersections list [statefarm.com], compiled by State Farm.

However, you can find the 24 most dangerous intersections in NY, as compiled by the NYPD here [transalt.org].

Either way, crossing the street isn't the safest thing in the world.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

That's only because actual commuting done in New York City is done primarily via cabs and subways, both of which are piloted by non-standard citizens who are trained commercially-licensed professional drivers. Of course not as many accidents are going to happen, they're pros.

That being said, it's still dangerous because the cab drivers can occasionally be reckless due to long hours worked.

See here [golala.com] for more zaniness.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

sorry, did I just see the words "New York City" and "professional drivers" in the same sentence?

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Remember, "professional" means that you get paid for it, not that you're any good at it.

Read the whole definition

Nice try, coward.

Though to be fair, you're partially right... profession has "at least two meanings," though you conveniently omitted the one that contradicts your little rant. I quote from Websters:

1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return
3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession
- professionally adverb

As opposed to "job":

b : a specific duty, role, or function c : a regular remunerative position

I'll let you look up remunerative for yourself... but as you can see, you can get paid for either a profession or a job... but as you'll note in the first definition above, a profession often implies far more (specialized knowledge, ethics, etc) than simply getting paid.

But that's OK, I don't take it personally. If you want, you can keep calling your fast-food job a "profession" if it makes you feel better.

Re:No...

Hmmm... and here I thought an amateur was someone who used her own home video camera in her bedroom instead of a corporate filming studio. :-)

someone who gets paid

So that means George Bush is a Professional President?

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

...and therefore my disappointment with hookers :(

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

New York City is the Capitol of professionals - from the lowest bum to the mayor's mom, everybody's working a scam as our lives depend on it. And our drivers are the best in the world: just get out of our way, tourist.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

sorry, did I just see the words "New York City" and "professional drivers" in the same sentence?

Yeah... I think I also saw "cabs" in that same sentence, along with "not as many accidents are going to happen"...

I'm sorry... I don't know what to say...

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

"cab drivers can occasionally be reckless due to long hours worked"?

Are you from New York? Cab drivers in this city are *always* reckless and it *isn't* because of the long hours worked.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Are you from New York? I've ridden cabs for 19 years and can only recall one ride I would describe as "reckless." NYC cabbies are by and large a decent bunch.

If you can understand WTF they're saying, that is.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

You don't actually live in NYC do you? Cab drivers in NYC aren't "always reckless". I take NYC cabs all the time and although the drivers aren't little old ladies, they are seldom reckless. With taxi medallions costing $200,000 they have to maximize return from the vehicle. That is the reason taxi drivers seem impatient and in a hurry - time is money, literally, to taxi drivers. There are always exceptions, but taxi drivers in NYC are generally pretty good.

Most cabs in NYC are driven 24 hours per day. As one driver gets out the next one takes over. If one damages the cab TWO drivers are out of a job because New York rules are very strict - no taxi can operate with damaged body panels. Few drivers work for taxi companies where they get a replacement if they wreck the cab.

I ride a bicycle most days in Manhattan and I have very few problems with taxi drivers. The most reckless drivers in NYC are far and away Post Office trucks. Next worse are the the SUVs with Jersey plates. Of all the vehicles in Manhattan, taxis are probably the best driven.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

I disagree.

Most people get into car accidents because they lose awareness. On country and sparse suburban roads it's easy to drive without seeing another person or moving motor vehicle for miles. As such, drivers tend to zone out and not notice the pedestrian until after they flip over your hood.

In Manhattan, you're surrounded by people and cars ALL THE TIME, even at 4AM, and at any moment someone could step in front of your car and you could kill them instantly. As such, you drive *very* carefully.

Also, 99% of the intersections in Manhattan have traffic lights. It's either red stop or green go.

If you don't see a green light at an intersection you assume you have to stop. This is reinforced so heavily that when motorists come to intersections in Manhattan with all-way stop signs instead of traffic lights, the motorists end up coming to a stop and waiting for a green light to appear. Eventually it occurs to them that there isn't a red light there either, and they then notice the stop sign and cautiously dart across.

I find driving in Manhattan to be more incident free than anywhere else. The rules-of-intersection engagement are very clear (don't even think of crossing until you see green), the other motorists are just as alert as you are (so cutting them off and being cut off by them is no big deal and traffic flows more smoothly), and above all, assume a pedestrian will decide to cross no matter where they are or what you're doing.

Driving in the rest of NYC is on the other hand a nightmare.

As such, I've become completely incompatible with weekend motorists and fear for my life when I go out on weekends.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Heh.
Where I lived, deer were far more common. But there were moose, too, and they were, if anything, dumber than the deer...at least the deer would usually run when you laid on the horn, but the moose would just stand there and look at you Make my day, puny tractor-trailer *ssscccrreeeeeeccchh* and you can see the look in the Moose's eyes Heheheheheh. Top of the food chain, sssnnnoooorrt

SB

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

In Manhattan, you're surrounded by people and cars ALL THE TIME, even at 4AM, and at any moment someone could step in front of your car and you could kill them instantly. As such, you drive *very* carefully.

That may be true for the visiting tourist who might be taken aback by the sensory overload. But most New Yorkers eventually tune out alot of their surroundings.

Then there is the pressure of the New York buisness day. Everyday I see people trying to smoke/eat/use the phone/change CD's/apply makeup all while driving a moving three thousand pound projectile.

If I had a nickel for every accident I witnessed while my ambulance was parked at a major intersection because the offending driver did something incredibly stupid, I would have had several steak dinners by now.

The funniest thing is that sometimes, I notice right before the "accident", this stupid look on the drivers face --something between being in pain and being constipated-- that instinctively lets you know that they are aware that they're about to commit to something that will cause someone injury and property damage, but think they might get away with it anyway.

My 2 pet peeves:

1.Cab drivers that will stop anywhere, abruptly from any speed, and at all sorts of angle to pick up a fare.

2. People who follow me (light/sirens) down side streets, then when I have to block said street (to narrow for them to get by) they honk and yell as if I should go aroung the block to let them by. But hey, it's not their mom I'm going to treat. ;)

It's actually a moving violation (as per the NYC VTL) to go down a side street when you see a parked ambulance with it's lights on, regardless if there is room for you to go by.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

There's a lot of people doing stupid things in Manhattan because there's so many people -- there's lots of people doing everything. Even if the throughput isn't terribly high because of the traffic patterns (I expect expect vehicle-miles driven in Manhattan aren't exceptionally high), because of the density you still will perceive there to be a lot of accidents, because each accident is near such a large number of people.

When you increase the population density I think it is very hard to get an idea of statistical things like accident frequency. Someone might think, say, that there are an exceptional number of homeless people, because they see one every couple minutes. But if they are seeing twice (or more) as many people everywhere, it's only reasonable they'll see more homeless people, and that doesn't mean that there is relatively more in the community. You see lots of traffic, but you notice accidents, and in the same way you might not be aware of the relative frequency of accidents.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

What are "non-standard citizens"? A citizen is a citizen, right?

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

In England, we have these gutless pedestrian crossings which are too scared to stop traffic if they detect cars approaching, so they wait until there's no traffic around and only then activate the pedestrian sequence.

Well gee thanks, I could've figured out myself that I can get across when there's no cars around...

Even better are the ones with a sensor to see if a pedestrian is waiting. So not only do they pander to any approaching car, but they require the pedestrian to be standing in a particular place otherwise they don't operate at all. Very useful.

So if anyone is reading this story and doesn't have a clue what it means because traffic-light stuff is all greek to you... Bedford city council has jobs waiting for you. Join the ranks of the clueless.

And in Paris...

In England, we have these gutless pedestrian crossings which are too scared to stop traffic if they detect cars approaching, so they wait until there's no traffic around and only then activate the pedestrian sequence.

Cowardly brits!
In Paris, many pedestrians seems to think it's shameful to cross if there are not cars coming from both directions, the faster the better! :p

Re:And in Paris...

In Paris, many pedestrians seems to think it's shameful to cross if there are not cars coming from both directions

So the Frogs play Frogger?

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

For more information on UK pedestrian crossings, go here [travelwise.org.uk]

It's so much more exciting than just a 'walk' sign...

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Heh.

I live in NYC (wait for the light to change - no point in pushing the button). On my trip to England I was doing the same thing (well, until I figured it out [after a few minutes waiting for the light to change]).

Oh, yeah, and THANKS for the `look ->' signs. If it weren't for those, I'd be road kill. Almost got ran over by a bus when I steped out of the airport.

Explanation

For those of you who've never been to London:

Most of the crosswalks in London have large block capitals on the road which say either:

"LOOK LEFT"

or

"LOOK RIGHT"

Whose function is to inform you of the most probable direction of your impending doom.

Seriously, these things are very useful when everyone is driving on the wrong side of the road.

Re:Explanation

"Seriously, these things ["look left" signs in London]are very useful when everyone is driving on the wrong side of the road."

So why don't they have them in countries where people drive on the wrong side of the road?

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Even better are the ones with a sensor to see if a pedestrian is waiting. So not only do they pander to any approaching car, but they require the pedestrian to be standing in a particular place otherwise they don't operate at all. Very useful.

This type of crossing is called a Puffin [dft.gov.uk]

If the pedestrian has crossed when there is a gap in the Traffic the demand from the Push Button is cancelled. If demands are being cancelled incorrectly the detector is badly configured.

Solution

Post the location of the signal crossing and I drop a line to Bedford.

Also ask Bedford to configure the crossing as 'Pre-timed [dft.gov.uk] Max'

So they wait until there's no traffic around and only then activate the pedestrian sequence.

Pre-timed Max Solves this problem.

Also further reading [dft.gov.uk] on Push Buttons and computerised traffic control.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Okay, I've read all that, and it pretty much confirms rather than allays my suspicions:

(a) the pedestrian sensor looks at the centre of the area where pedestrians would stand. But the buttons are right at the edge of that area. And cyclists can't move sideways.

(b) No mention of how long it takes from pressing a button to getting a green light. My guess is that it's "2 minutes, or when there's no traffic, whichever is earlier"

Which means that yes, the light does indeed fail to stop traffic if it can possibly avoid doing so. Remember that by the time the button is pushed, someone is already waiting

Having lights which take so long to react seems quite dangerous, because people will give up and cross anyway, and almost get hit by a police car

As to 'pre-timed max', surely imposing a "minimum time between stopping cars" doesn't have any effect if the crossing was just waiting there doing nothing for 10 minutes before I arrived? Unless it sets a minimum time for pedestrians to wait, which is just too dumb to even contemplate.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

No mention of how long it takes from pressing a button to getting a green light. My guess is that it's "2 minutes, or when there's no traffic, whichever is earlier"

... As to 'pre-timed max', surely imposing a "minimum time between stopping cars" doesn't have any effect if the crossing was just waiting there doing nothing for 10 minutes before I arrived?

Rough Outline Of How Pre-timed Max Works

There are a timer for the traffic stage, a min time, a 'max' time and lots of other setting - one of which is the gap length.

A ped crosses the road, then the traffic stage starts. (Green to traffic)
This run for at least the min time.(Normally 7 secs)

Now if there is a low ped flow the traffic can run for say >180 seconds. Greater than the max time and has 'pre-timed out'). If you then press the button the traffic stage will end striaght away, and give you green man in about 5 seconds. Hence the term 'pre-timed' max.

If there is a high pedstrain flow the max timer has to expire before the pedestrain stage will run again. Max timers vary alots ~ ballpark 60 seconds. (Unless there is a gap in the traffic - then it will gap change to the pedestrian stage.

That being said - speak to your Council and your local Traffic Signal Engineer. Drop them a email, you pay there wages (taxes) they will bend over backwards to help you and may not know there is a problem until a (MOP) member of the public reports it.

Most/All of us prefer to here a complaint, than to have badly configured junction.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

We got one of the clever ones nearby... for a week it was great... you pushed the button, and it saw you were actually there and stopped the traffic.. plus if you could cross before it automatically cancelled itself.

The next week they completely disabled the sensors and put it in 'don't stop traffic make the buggers wait' mode*, where it's stayed. Nice to know where my council tax is being wasted...

* This mode refuses to change to let pedestrians cross *even if there isn't any traffic for miles*, meaning you cross anyway, then 5-6 minutes later hear the beeps in the distance as it decides to turn red whilst there's nobody actually wanting to cross.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Around my area they installed crosswalks with BRIGHT ass leds that flash when someone presses the button. The leds are on both sidewalks as well as two lines on the road itself. These things just command attention, when pressed you can see drivers approaching immediately step on the brakes. IMO they have already saved lives because even I have not noticed the pedestrian before I saw the lights.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Well, I've seen two versions of this.

In Winnipeg, there are "pedestrian corridors" which have lights that hang over the road and go off the instant the button is pressed. These are not for all intersections and, in fact, they are often not at intersections. They're also relatively uncommon -- places where there are schools, parks, etc. (my guess -- IANACP) The thing is, they pound this into everyone's head when they learn to drive. There are heavy penalties for crossing a lit corridor. They're not like stoplights in that they go off when there is no reason to (I've only ever seen one malfunctioning corridor, and a line of traffic slowing to a stop, looking like mad for the pedestrian, and then only gingerly accelerating through, no doubt covering the brake). And not every crosswalk is a corridor, so people don't get used to only stopping for lights and not still looking for people.

Contrast with Vancouver. New province, new rules. Whoops. That flashing green doesn't mean I can't turn left or right at will? These are "pedestrian controlled intersections". Just what you'd expect, and probably run the risk of the occasional light-runner, since there's no flashing red to tell you that it changed because someone is now crossing the road. Except that some lights will never change unless they are activated. As both a pedestrian in Vancouver (with curiosity), and a motorcycle rider all over, I can assure you that this is the case with many lights. I've annoyed many drives, waiting behind me at stoplights, because the light will not change. Many intersections are still like that for pedestrians (I'll sometimes shout at a pedestrian to push the button). But then Van also has veritable pedestrian paranoia. You can't take one step out on the pavement of a multi-lane street to wait for that one car to pass... because they'll stop. Suddenly you can't Frogger your way through that hold, and more cars stop. Then everybody's stopped, waiting for you to cross, and you were jaywalking in the first place. Mad, I tell you. Mad.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Around my area they installed crosswalks with BRIGHT ass leds that flash when someone presses the button.

Something like these [astucia.co.uk]?

The web site sucks ass but the products look pretty damn cool. They also make headlight-activated LED road studs - seen these on the motorway north of Brighton, you can turn your headlights off and drive in total darkness at 85mph, following the LEDs (till you run into the other idiot doing the same thing)...

start spreading the news...

As a native NY'er (29+ yrs), I've known for the longest those buttons don't work, and I'm almost sure every NY'er knows the same too. Hell half of those red fire department boxes don't even work the city knows and hasn't done anything about those, so little attention will be paid to those funky looking buttons.

Now on the flip side of things, for those who live in the boroughs, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, SI, if you take a good old trip to city hall and the places where the money is flowing what do you find? Operating buttons, clean streets, subways with bathrooms, and spikes to keep those pigeons from pooping all over the place. The boroughs... What are you kidding?

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

My first semester at college I lived in a dorm right next to a busy/dangerous intersection.

The dorm was shaped like a U that pointed at the intersection heightening the noise. Several times a day you would hear loud screeching as people locked up their brakes. Always just the screeching. About 3 weeks into the semester, there was another loud screech, this time followed by a loud CRASH. Simultaneously, 50 people stuck their heads out their windows and cheered. It was hilarious.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Wow. Simply incredible. You sir are living a life full of adventure and memories. Be sure to tell the grandkids.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

Surprisingly enough, NY doesn't have any intersections listed in the top 10 most dangerous intersections list, compiled by State Farm.

That list is compiled based upon the dollar amount of State Farm insurance claims for those intersections. I imagine the fleet cabs and busses of NYC are largely self-insured by the operating companies and wouldn't show up as claims to State Farm or any other insurer.

State Farm offers monetary and consultative support to cities with intersections in their top 10 (and a lesser amount to those in their top 100 IIRC) to save themselves money.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

A perennial top 10 intersection is Highway 121 & Preston Road in Plano, TX. There are lots of expensive cars in that area; if everyone there drove 5-year old Hyundai's I doubt it would make the list. Either that or the nearby EDS campus is really a cover for an organized insurance fraud ring.

Re:Most Dangerous Intersections

That's because in New York, when people cross the street, they're usually in a huge mob that blocks the entire intersection. An angry cabby has no choice but to stop and wait or risk vehicular homicide. NYC drivers also pay no attention to pedestrians' right-of-way; If the light is green and you're in the crosswalk, you're an obstacle not a pedestrian.

This doesn't surprise me one bit though. My small town (roughly 7,000) paid a great expense to have all the intersections redone with those big red buttons. No one uses them. If that weren't enough, we've got large mobs of unsupervised children on bicycles zipping in front of cars passing through green lights (and kids that stop their bikes in the middle of the lane -during periods of heavy traffic- on purpose). Maybe we should just do away with pedestrian right-of-way?

Re:Umm...

I don't believe that any of those buttons work.

I also belive that at the gas station, Regular, Plus and Premium Unleaded all go to the same tank underground.

Coke and Pepsi are all made at the same factory, with a little more sugar going into Pepsi.

I also think my dog is trying to control my brain, the way he looks at me I can just tell he wishes to destroy me...

Re:Umm...

"I also belive that at the gas station, Regular, Plus and Premium Unleaded all go to the same tank underground."
Actually, sir, according to a very reputable gas supplier that I know, many gas stations do NOT purchase higher octane fuel. It is far from a preposterous notion, in fact it is a reality at many, many gas stations.

Re:Umm...

This is why you must look for the octane label, instead of just the word Premium. Mislabeling the octane of a gasoline for sale is a big time violation of the law.

Re:Umm...

It is true, the engine in my car does not run well on low octane which is a problem because where I live the high octane are being fased out.

I had noticed that often after having tanked at a specific station, I often felt the engine ran worse. So after a while, I mentioned it while paying for the gas, just in a half joking way. To my surprise the guy said that they did not have enough tanks in the ground for it but they were one of the (few) stations required to have the high octane. And since not may people buy it, it was bad economy to have another tank digged down(the stations was in the center of the city).

Of course I had seen all the pamphlets saying that I just should get my engine tuned in to run on lower octane, but I'd rather drive longer to get it filled up than have it adjusted and lose the horsepower.

Re:Umm...

Isn't that a little obvious? I mean, do ANY of those buttons work anymore?

Of course they work, just press it a few more times....

Just like my gf

The buttons don't work

Re:Just like my gf

Have you tried plugging her in first?

If that doesn't work, RTFM. You did get a manual, right?

Re:Just like my gf

Sure they do, you just need to use the ol' "three finger salute" ... know what I mean?

Re:Just like my gf

No, I'm absolutely sure he doesn't know.

Re:Just like my gf

Are you sure it isn't user error?

Re:Just like my gf

That's strange, my GeForce doesn't have any buttons on it...

They're not doing it right!

Everybody knows the more times you push it, the faster it goes. Geez.

Ellen Degeneres on elevators

"We always do this: we walk up to an elevator, someone's already there, they're waiting, they've pushed the button, the button is lit. We walk up and push the button, thinking, 'Obviously you didn't push it correctly. I'll have to push it myself. NOW the elevator will come.' Then someone else walks up and they push the button again. Suddenly you're offended. You want to say, 'You idiot, I pushed it, he pushed it.' Then to the original pusher, 'Can you believe people?'"

Re:They're not doing it right!

I had worker-bee programmer friend (geez, way back in 1986) who had the deadly combination Karate-hard fingers and a real hatred of comuter keyboards. Sixty days was about the longest they lasted with him; I remember more than once seeing a key launch across the office out of the corner of my eye.