Illicit Leaky Capacitors Killing Motherboards 375
mcd7756 writes "The IEEE Spectrum magazine has an article about how capacitors made with a stolen formula for the electrolyte are leaking and causing motherboards to fail. Some computer manufacturers are admitting to the problem; others are hiding it."
Experienced it first hand (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:3, Informative)
In summer 2000 I got a dual cpu MSI motherboard. I had to get it exchanged a year later because a half a dozen capacitators had bursted their top. At that time it took with it a 256MB SIMM.
Just last week I got the same problem again and had to get my 3rd motherboard (lucky for that 3 year warranty). This time it corrupted my hard disks which had to be rebuilt from backups.
I like that MSI dual processor board but I dont really want to be exchanging it every year and a half.
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:2)
OTOH, it's nice to finally know why this happened.
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:5, Interesting)
I've got replacment capacators here now, gonna attempt a repair later today. I've never tried to fix a motherboard before, so should be fun!
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:2)
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:2, Informative)
The capacitors still work, they're just not as effective, which can lead to flaky behavior depending on what role the capacitor plays in the circuit.
Compaq too!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
So I come back the next day to turn on the computer. Nothing. It's dead Jim. So of course I open it up to see what's wrong. When I open it up, I saw the outside casing of a capacitor laying on the floor of the case, and noticed an odd indention in the case. Aparently a capcitor near the CPU on the MOBO just blew itself off the night before and put a dent in the case! I found on the MOBO where the capacitor was, and it had greatly expanded.
Now it get funny. So I call compaq, thinking that I can ask for a new capacitor, because it seemed to be an odd one that I didn't have a spare of. I call up and I say, I need to get a new part for my motherboard. He asks me what the problem is, not listening to my question. I said the computer won't turn on because of a problem with the MOBO. He took that as a cue to run me through making sure all the cables were plugged in, etc... At one point he thought I had it in sleep mode. Moron.
Anyway, he is like, well I want you to do this- and I said "well I can't really do that I know the problem is a capacitor on the motherboard gone bad". He tells me to hit the sleep button again, making sure everything is plugged in. I say I can't do that because the computer is taken apart on my desk. (to get to anything on those you had to take half of the Chasis apart to get to the mobo, which was now laying on the desk). He seemed rather taken back by the fact that I had even opened up the case, let alone taken out the mobo.
So he says to me "didn't you see the warrentee stickers" I said yea, but how else was I supposed to put in a Voodoo 2 instead of your crappy Rage card, and more memory. He seemed to think I was supposed to send it in for that. Anyway, he wouldn't send me a capacitor. And told me to get my warrenty stuff in order and then call them.
Morons at compaq. When I build systems for people, I expect them to take them apart. It's not like I overclocked it or anything.
Re:Warning! (Score:2)
There is no spoon
DEFINITELY (Score:4, Informative)
Re:DEFINITELY (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Experienced it first hand(Gateway) (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Experienced it first hand (Score:2)
Deja vu? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Deja vu? (Score:2, Funny)
Haha, that'll teach 'em. (Score:4, Funny)
Well shit, and I thought the woolly jumper I wore when I built my box killed it. Now I don't have to feel so bad about sending our broken mobos back and claiming it arrived that way! (I'm joking, I'm joking! Nobody tell Dell or the Cowboy gets it.
Re:Haha, that'll teach 'em. (Score:3, Funny)
HarHAr! (Score:5, Funny)
We had 50 mobos go bad (Score:4, Interesting)
on top and after a while they leak the stuff out.
Spontaneous reboots, blue screens and all sorts of fun.
I'm just glad it wasn't me doing the replacing
Screw home PCs, what else are these components in? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Screw home PCs, what else are these components (Score:5, Interesting)
At the time, I also wondered what other devices may have these faulty aluminium electrolytic capacitors, but it appears the answer is not many; probably due to their cost, they seem to be restricted to high frequency switched mode power supplies.
Low-ESR caps? A lot of stuff. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Screw home PCs, what else are these components (Score:4, Informative)
The difference? Mitsubish *never* acknowledged the problem. They just fixed it under the covers in '95 and never told anyone about it. Nice, huh?
Thomas Dorris
Re:Screw home PCs, what else are these components (Score:2, Informative)
It's a pretty simple fix though. Pull the ECU, remove the dead caps, clean board really well, $2 worth of good quality caps from Digikey and back in business. You can find detailed instructions on how to fix it here [dsm.org]
Re:Screw home PCs, what else are these components (Score:2)
I have no comment... (Score:4, Insightful)
This story has been circulating around for a long time, but this article is a good update on what's going on. I was very surprised to read that manufacturers actually threatened that guy who put a list of problem boards on his website.
You know, this is an all-too-disturbing trend. If you look at the behavior of media-giants, RIAA, MPAA, and now computer hardware makers - they'd all like to see us just locked in our homes, doing what they want us to do, seeing only what they want us to see, and not having any communication with anyone else... because if we can communicate with other people (i.e. by publishing a list of boards that are prone to failure), we'll realize just how badly we're being taken. That would eat into profits, and therefore should be made illegal. Heaven forbid consumers are allowed to make informed decisions..
Starting to sound like Soviet Russia?
Well no, actually (Score:3, Insightful)
You see, the difference is, in Soviet Russia the government owned the means of production.
In America the means of production are in private hands ( the very definition of capitalism) but own the government.
A subtle difference to the man on the street perhaps. After all, at serf level tyrany is tryany, but it isn't fair to slander it with the label of the great "evil empire." It's pure laissez-faire capitalism and a "free" wage slave is still a slave.
KFG
Re:Well no, actually (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Well no, actually (Score:4, Interesting)
In an editorial I read lately an interesting statistic was mentioned - A survey of Americans showed that 19% thought that they were in the top 1% income bracket. Not only that but a further 15% thought they would be in the next year.
Another fun quote (so that none of this comment is original material) is from Alexis de Tocqueville:
"The American Republic will endure until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money."
Now the Bush crew are doing one better: bribing the people with visions of their own money while giving the majority of it to that almost-mythical richest 1%!
Or at least that's how I feel about it.
owning the gov't (Score:2)
Adam Smith wrote: "the government of an exclusive company of merchants is, perhaps, the worst of all governments for any country whatsoever." So even the guy who definitively linked prosperity with a free economic system - one where the politicians don't exert much control over the markets - could see that the reverse situation - where the markets own the political power - should be avoided at almost any cost.
You are confusing particular *implimentations*. . (Score:2)
Just as HTML, XHTML and XML are all implimentations of the SGML standard, the capitalist model is simply a broad umbrella which leaves quite a bit of leeway for creativity and alternative modes.
Modern Western interest driven capitalism isn't the only possible implimentation. "Islamic Banking" is, for instance, attracting a great deal of, ummmmm, interest, these days, despite the fact that it eschews the charging of interest.
It is, nonetheless, a capitalist banking system, as were many of the monetary systems of the ancients who practiced free merchantilism. What's more, many modern western capitalists still raise their capital just as the ancients did.
"Sweat equity" is still capitalism.
KFG
I could have used the term "servant" instead (Score:3, Insightful)
While there is a difference in class status between the scullery maid and the corporate manager their *state* is the same.
I used the term "wage slave" in the sense of ability to personally control ones working conditions or not. The classical form of wage slavery that you refer to still exists in a form though, but it's slavery to the interest charged by lending institutions rather than the company store.
If you need to borrow money to own a car so that you can get to work, you may well be a wage slave, even in the classical sense. It's just less obvious.
I fully admit that I'm an odd bird in today's world. By *my* standards the guy who barely scrapes by with his own pool cleaning business is of a higher status than a corporation president, no matter how much he "makes."
The classical American Dream is *independence,* not income.
KFG
"Virtual Cache" anyone? (Score:2, Informative)
"Economies" of scale (Score:3, Interesting)
Think of how many decisions in business don't even look good on paper anymore. Companies shedding devisions that, while making money, aren't making BOOKOO money. All the games like 37.5 hour work weeks on your pay stub. And all of those assine hoops they jump through for tax reasons.
Now if I go to company A and say, hey, for yor next data center upgrade I can save you 80% of the cost by going with Linux I would be laughed out of the meeting. If I turn around and say I can save 10% of your next round of computer upgrades by skipping the floppy, they might buy it. If I say that I will save them a fraction of a penny on a penny component by going with a noname manufacturer, I'd get promoted.
Oh pulleaze... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh pulleaze. People are bad. When the right sequence of events occurs, evil can propogate from bad person, to bad person, magnifying itself. This happens regardless of the legal framework. Some frameworks are better than others. Soviet style socialism was probably more corrupt than global corporatism, and far more secretive. "In Soviet Russia..." this story would not have appeared in any of the state controlled news outlets. In fact, in the real Soviet Russia exploding TV sets were a leading cause of fire because the tubes were bad.
Exactly what is the conspiracy here? Are you trying to tell me that the Japanese engineer who stole the formula had a meeting with the contractors who cut corners, who then agreed to threaten the manufacturers so they wouldn't say whether or not they were guilty? And since I've got the Simpsons on my mind now, I want to know exactly how the saucer people were involved in all this.
No, this is not starting to sound like Soviet Russia at all. Don't you see the irony in complaining that we "can't communicate" by "publishing a list"? First, we are communicating on Slashdot. Second, the IEEE article already contains some preliminary investigative work that can be used to develop such a list.
No, it won't be easy to track down all the bad boards. Nobody ever said freedom was easy, but at least it's possible. So kwitcherbitchin, open your case, check the caps, and start asking questions.
You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would a company steal a formula such as this? so they ddn't have to pay as much for the 'real deal' and then henceforth could sell at a cheaper price and undercut others. When this happens quality suffers.
It has happened in many other industries and frank, I'm surprised it hasn't yet happened in something as stressed and pushed-cheaper as the motherboard and other componentry markets.
Rampant commercialism is causing problems like this
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
Now the article mentions that motherboard manufacturers' lawyers threatened the guy who posted the list of affected motherboards on the net. I think that this is the real problem, not the faulty capacitors, industrial espionage or businesses overcutting costs - these things will always happen, but the situation gets really bad when the mechanisms for fixing them stop working.
"Free" market (Score:3, Insightful)
Notice that mp3 trading is a classic example of the free market applying pressure to the suppliers and yet instead of heralding it as a success of capitalism in action the US and others are applying protectionism to the music industry.
CDs are too expensive. The only analysis I need is that people are putting effort into copying them for free. The market wants to see a CD album for somewhere in the $3.99 region.
The CD producers have been prosecuted for running cartels and still they whine.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:3, Insightful)
Commercialism isn't the problem, it is unscrupulous business practice. Ethical and commercial are not mutually exclusive, believe it or not. It is just getting harder to separate the two...
Happily running an A7V266 with my fingers, toes and eyes crossed.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:4, Informative)
When the capacitor is made, a DC current is put through them to form a crust on the metal surfaces inside the capacitor, which is then used as the dielectric.
When the capacitor is used in a product, you have to apply the same polarity to it, or you'll reverse the chemical reaction and get a DC current flow, which boils the electrolyte. (Thus causing pressure inside, causing a bulge and eventually a pop.)
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:2)
If you truly want to get good quality goods, don't expect to keep forcing the market to make cheaper and cheaper products.
What the hell is this? Communism in reverse? You're going to blame consumers for demanding a fair price? Seems to me the problem is a lack of information, not a lack of money.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:2)
I bought a 500$ Onkyo home theater reciever. It had a small heat problem on one of the ICs and it would come unsoldierd, repeatedly in the shop, never fixed more than a couple of months, now out of warrantee. I then bought the cheapest 100$ reciever just to have something, one year later the IR reciever does not work (never, never heard of an IR transmitter or reciever going bad).
Where I work, we paid about $1 million for a cluster of Alpha machines right now 74 out of 120 processors are online.
I bought 6 IBM SCSI hds, 2 doa, 1 died a month later in production.
I bought a TV card for my computer, sound did not work.
etc, etc, etc
Yeah, I used to say that you get what you pay for, but I meant that there was more value to a more expensive item. Now its getting to the point that you have to pay out the yazoo Just for something that works to spec! I would say that a company like Sun fits this category. Their stuff isn't fast, it isn't cheap, but it Just Works(tm). Same with Apple and other companies, but as far as mainstream off the shelf items, its a crapshoot.
Tech Support (Score:4, Funny)
Tech Support : Is there a capacitor leaking on your motherboard ?
Customer : What ???? How dare you talk about my moma like that, tell me right now, who's that #@&*%$ capacitor ?
Illicit Leaky Capacitors Killing Motherboards (Score:2, Funny)
Secret Formula (Score:2, Funny)
Huh.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh yeah, and this is a repost.
Woah, if finally understand (Score:5, Funny)
"Aluminum electrolytic capacitors with a low equivalent series resistance (ESR) are high-capacitance components that generally serve to smooth out the power supply to chips."
I always thought ESR was smooth compared to RMS and the other GPL zealots, now I know why.
I guess RMS means resistance-marxist-shite or something.
Unreliable anyway (Score:5, Interesting)
"Zogbi cites tests by Japanese manufacturers that indicate the capacitor's lifetimes are half or less of the 4000 hours of continuous ripple current they are rated for."
4000 hours for the good capacitors? That's like 6 months of continuous usage. Surely shome mistake?
Re:Unreliable anyway (Score:3, Informative)
seriously though, this has been a known problem for some time now(6+ months maybe more), it took quite a time to get to slashdot and i wouldnt be surprised if this story is a dupe at some level at least.
Re:Unreliable anyway (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Unreliable anyway (Score:2, Informative)
The simplest power supplies work by taking an external AC power source, running it through a step-down transformer(changes the peak voltage to the appropriate level), running it through a bridge rectifier(makes it into pulsing DC), and then using a large capacitor to smooth it into normal DC.
Switching power supplies are a bit more complex, but are based on the same principles.
Unfortunately, the filtering capacitor can take out a large fraction of the ripple, depending on the Thevinin resistance and reactance of the circuit drawing power and the size of the capacitor used for the filtering...
Re:Unreliable anyway (Score:4, Funny)
They got maths lessions from the RIAA?
"These motherboards are obviously being sold for use in music piracy. Why else would they put onboard audio on it? These 'secured' capacators are designed to protect our prof^H^H^H^H.. artists from these thiefs."
Re:Unreliable anyway (Score:2)
It's up to the designers who use the components to ensure that the ripple is low enough to give the lifespan required. As I recall, there also tends to be knee in the ripple voltage vs lifetime curve, for a minor change in ripple voltage there could be a drastic reduction in longevity.
Ripple = heat (Score:5, Informative)
All capacitors have what is called an equivelent series resistance, or ESR (great: now we have 2 TLAs that are overloaded in context: RMS and ESR... )
The ESR only matters when there is a current flow through the device - a static voltage does not create (much of ) a static current flow - that is rather the definition of a capacitor. So if you are putting a DC voltage across the device all is well.
However, if what you are putting across the device is NOT DC, but rather DC with an AC component on top of it, then there will be a current flow as the capacitor tries to hold the voltage constant (again, that's rather the point).
However, due to the ESR, some of that current will cause heating of the device (power = I*I*R).
In caps with the good electrolytic, nothing much happens. In caps with the bad electrolytic, the electrolytic breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen, as well as boiling into steam. Pressure builds, and eventually the cap leaks. Since the other stuff in the electrolytic is caustic, your PC board traces rot away.
Now, at low ripple currents, this does not happen very fast, and any cap will have a long lifespan. However, as you approach the limit of the cap, the heating becomes the dominant factor, and the cap will cook itself fairly quickly.
That's where that 4000 hours comes from - that is not the cap running with a few tens of milliamps of current ripple across it, that is the cap getting amperes of current rammed down its throat, and running very hot.
That's also why you use tantalum caps wherever possible - tant's don't have an electrolyte, they use a very spongy tantalum slug with lots of surface area. They don't have quite the capacitance per unit volume that electrolytics have, but they don't leak, either. (but they do blow up real good (sic) when you exceed their rated voltage!)
Re:Unreliable anyway (Score:2)
You should have that looked at shoon. ;)
Misread... (Score:2, Funny)
I read this as: 'ESR capacitated and leaking all over my motherboard'. Trying to get that picture out of my head. Failed..Going home, to take a nap.
Corporate espionage? (Score:3, Interesting)
How difficult would it be to buy just one capacitor from your competitor (for $0.05), open it up and do a chemical analysis on it?
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:4, Interesting)
Even if you can both figure out what's in Coke and get the proportions right, you still have to figure out a cost-effective manufacturing process which produces that result.
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:4, Interesting)
Coca-cola's formula still hasn't been figured out last I checked.
...or, instead of reverse engineering Coke, you could just drink a soda that tastes better.
Coke's real secret formula has nothing to do with any chemistry or anything that goes into the can. It has everything to do with what goes on the can, on the billboards, on the TV commercials, in the product placement, and in the minds of consumers. Coke's success is all about marketing, not about the product.
-Rob
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:2)
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:2)
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not swayed by marketing, but I will admit I prefer Coke over any cola competitor I've tried. But when I'm at the grocery store I still buy the generic because it's close enough, and so much cheaper. Doesn't mean I think it tastes better. I also prefer expensive gourmet restaurants to more mundane places like Chili's, but I'm not willing to pay $30+ per plate every time I go out.
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:2)
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:2)
first hit on google, you must not have checked very hard, or at all.
Re:Corporate espionage? (Score:3, Interesting)
Poundstone (and others) have also made an excellent point about secret formulas in food -- yes, you can do it by reverse-engineering, but when you consider Coca-Cola is one of the largest companies in the world, but why would you want to? You can't match their economy of scale, and who would buy something identical to Coke but more expensive anyway? Better to create your own unique product. (The same also infamously applies to Tricon/KFC, whose "eleven secret herbs and spices" seem to be nothing more than salt, pepper, and MSG... rest assured that if you put in the cayenne, garlic, and whatnot that was probably in the Colonel's true original recipe you'd get a product very different from modern KFC, even if you used the same pressure-frying process.)
Industrial espionage seems somewhat counterproductive anyway -- I've heard stories out of Soviet Russia (shaddap) that one of the big problems the Soviets had was that they spent so much effort on reverse-engineering American technology that they were five years behind on any given tech. It probably didn't help that for decades the scientific establishment (especially in biology and nuclear physics) was so politicized that innovation was more or less impossible for fear of running afoul of Uncle Joe -- under Lysenko, for example, the accepted lines of genetic research were so primitive and unscientific that the only way the Soviets were likely to get increased production in crops would be to smuggle high-yield crops in from Western countries and hope to Josef (no God, remember?) that they'd grow the same in the Russian environment. Russian computer systems would be virtually identical to the IBM systems they copied, right down to mounting holes in the cases. The upshot is that in the interview I read, the general who was giving the interview said that by the time the Soviets had finished reverse-engineering the technology, it was obsolete.
The fomula isnt the problem... (Score:2)
The trick isn't to find out what chemicals are in there. That's a relatively trivial exercise in gas chromatography or a mass spectrometer. Most well equiped schools, universities and certainly any research lab could do it and tell you the exact mix of chemicals in the electrolyte. I'm certain it happens most of the time.
But it doesn't gain you much. You then have to figure out how you get to the end result, or how to do it in the most cost effective fashion, or how to do it on a large scale.
Think about it - you can buy a chocolate cake from any supermarket, and its pretty easy to figure out whats in it. But without the recipie its pretty hard just to throw flour, eggs, milk and chocolate in a bowl and get the same cake, or be able to make 3000 a day and sell them for 5 dollars.
Low-ESR capacitors (Score:5, Interesting)
Links to original (and informative) articles are Faulty capacitors [timcousins.com.au] and Passive Component Industry report [careyholzman.com].
In fairness most of the products affected carry a "Made in Tiawan" warning!
Re:Low-ESR capacitors (Score:2)
Maybe we should push CMDR Taco to allow the Karmic Whores like ourselves to moderate the selection of new stories as well as the comments.
(Cue the excessivly nasty moderation of this comment.)
Crawled over my boards, they seem to be fine (Score:3, Interesting)
appear to be fine. No suspect looking capacitors.
YMMV. I've been using an 8k5a2+ for a while and
I'm really liking the thing. Using it now. The
onboard sound is a PITA to get working with
surround and linux though. When you do give up
and get the OSS commercial driver, you'll notice a 30ms lag
in every game until you give up again and get
something cheap that works great with kernel
drivers like an es1371. Damn The Strokes are a
good band.
Re:Crawled over my boards, they seem to be fine (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Crawled over my boards, they seem to be fine (Score:2)
Otherwise, you may want to try routing audio to the real DSP device, and not the virtual mixer devices.
Re:Crawled over my boards, they seem to be fine (Score:3, Interesting)
My Epox failed yesterday. It has been hard to turn on for many months (required cycling power for 5 minutes before it would start.) Close examination of the board shows half the caps leaking... Its about 3 months beyond the 1 yr warrenty. *sigh*
Have to by some caps with my next digikey order.
Article Title? (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't they mean to say that "Leaking Capacitors Muck up Fotherboards"?
EPoX EP-8KTA+ (Score:3, Interesting)
The effects were that first, I couldn't get it to run with my old power supply. Somehow the mainboard failed to switch it on. I had to use one that would switch on when u switched the power button on the backside. Then it just failed to work alltogether...Ah well.
Re:EPoX EP-8KTA+ (Score:3, Interesting)
^R
watch out for bad power supplies (Score:4, Insightful)
Power Supplies also use low ESR electrolytic capacitors. I'll bet some of the bad capacitors turn up in power supplies too.
This is horrible for businesses (Score:2, Interesting)
How many companies do you know have checked what mother board is in the, say, Dell Dimension 1234x Desktop Model? What they look at is they can buy it in bulk under a business license, it has a certain size hdd, and its easy to replace/repair. The Mobo on a business class machine like this isnt even taken into consideration unless you are looking for onboard something.
This is a lanadmins worse nightmare now.
Nothing new.... (Score:3, Interesting)
First bugs... (Score:3, Funny)
What the hell is the next STD for motherboards?
digital clymidia?
I'm sorry this happened (Score:5, Informative)
However, I'm glad that this is happening to boards that end up in the hands of tech-savvy individuals that can spot the problem. People who buy ABIT, Asus, etc... boards expect a lot from the product that they recieve and are usuially knowledgeable about the equipment that they run.
I could only imagine if this happened to a major computer company, how it would be swept under the rug (which it may already have been). I see that IBM is named in the article, so at least they are willing to accept the failures. IBM is one of the only computer makers that I trust anymore after the way that they handled their hard drive failure issues. Yes, they tried to fix the problem by changing the uptime specs, but in the end, they got the problem worked out without too much hassle to customers (hardware zealots excluded).
I would like to know if this problem has been documented by any users that aren't using products from the manufacturers listed in the article and their expierence with the equipment, service and support.
Hi-Rel Motherboards Don't Use Electrolytic Caps (Score:5, Informative)
High-Rel designs use very low esr tantalum caps. like these T530 Series [kemet.com]
Tyan (Score:2)
Re:Tyan (Score:2)
Now we know why AirPort Base Stations fail... (Score:4, Interesting)
For anyone who wants to repair their base station - the symptom is all red lights, continuing to power cycle, and perhaps even a faint hissing noise coming from the failed capacitors - I recommend Radio Shack 35V 220uF electrolytics (272-1029 [radioshack.com]). They're small enough that the base station doesn't have to be modified (the hardest part of some of the suggested replacements), and seem to work fine. I've replaced a few with these now, and they've all been working like a charm.
soyo dragon k7v (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Why you should buy from a local store... (Score:3, Interesting)
I brought it back to the place I got it http://www.nanosys1.com/ [nanosys1.com], (I don't work for them, BTW) and they not only took my board back and RMA'd it, they sold me a newer one at 10% over cost. I think I would be greeted with confused looks and laughter if I went to Best Buy or Computer "Go-Round".
I now have my motherboard back (they explained that it's better to RMA through them, since they have a relationship with the board makers; more chance of MSI fixing/replacing it.) and my new board is chugging along nicely. I've been buying stuff from them since '97 and now that I've moved out of the Mpls area, I drive an hour and a half to do business with these guys. Happily.
Packard Bell Power Supplies Smell of Fish (Score:3, Interesting)
I think maybe they just used cod liver oil or something.
--
cHris
Actually, the "big guys" are to blame (Score:2, Interesting)
Cheers for ABIT (Score:3, Interesting)
Paul.
The sleaziest thing Microsoft has done! (Score:3, Funny)
Field quality control (Score:3, Informative)
The USAF had, in the 1970s and 1980s, a field electronics reliability assessment program. About 1% of the electronics boxes in Air Force inventory were marked with a stencil that said "If this unit fails, send it back to ... for analysis." An Air Force unit tore the failed components apart and found out what went failed. And why. Components were pulled apart and examined in detail, using electron microscopes and other analysis tools to figure out exactly why the thing failed.
When the USAF found something, articles would appear in Aviation Week and other trade magazines, with company names, part numbers, pictures of failed components, and detailed explainations of exactly how the manufacturer had screwed up. This was very effective in tightening up quality control. It is, in fact, one of the main reasons minor components are far more reliable than they used to be.
This stopped during the Reagan years.
In the heyday of 3.5" diskettes, Sony had a unit in Japan analyzing failed diskettes sent in for warranty replacement. They discovered that the main cause of failure was scrapings from the shutter getting onto the recording surface. A redesign of the shutter cut failures way down.
Fixing this yourself: a quick and dirty HOWTO (Score:3, Informative)
I opened up my machine sometime in December in order to inspect it for this very problem. Because I'd read in the previous slashdot article that Abit motherboards had experienced this problem, and my motherboard was (is) an Abit KT7-Raid (non -A flavor), I was particularly curious. Sure enough, two capacitors had clearly bulged open and were leaking paste, and three more were on their way towards failing. Interestingly, I hadn't had any observable symptoms whatsoever; I just checked the board on a whim.
I consulted the Abit website, and at the time they required the original 'invoice' from the motherboard if you wanted to have them repair the problem for free. If you have that paperwork, RMA'ing the board should not be too troublesome. I really didn't think I could find my old paperwork for this board. Abit offers to repair motherboards without original invoices for a charge of (as I recall) $25.00US. I think you have to pay shipping one way.
I considered using the services of the guy linked to in the previous slashdot article, but his prices were about in line with Abit's. That didn't really help any -- for the amount of money he wanted, I could just have just had Abit do it. I could also have just as easily replaced the board for $45.00 plus shipping on Ebay, but it probably would have just failed all over again.
I felt I could replace the capacitors myself, and as it turns out, I was right. Here's my advice to anyone who wants to try to do this repair themselves:
Good luck. Don't blame me if you scew something up, burn something out, or get someone killed. Send it back to the manufacturer if you're not up to the task, or don't have much experience in such matters. There is a touch to this sort of repair that comes from practice, I think, and the only way to develop it is to get your hands dirty. Or burnt. Or something. Previous to this, I had only a little experience with this sort of rework, so don't be too shy.
Besides, Natalie Portman demands a guy with trained fingers.
Re:Fixing this yourself: a quick and dirty HOWTO (Score:3, Informative)
Heterogeneous Systems (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, if you had differing systems, only half the systems are affected by the design flaw. The key here is to have systems with nothing in common. Power supplys, motherboards, cases, even cables must come from different companies. For example, half my server group is x86, the other half is SPARC. One runs Solaris, one runs NT. No matter what happens, with any design flaw, only half the servers will be affected at one time.
Its the Fujitsu saga all over again (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What board models are affected (curious) ? (Score:4, Informative)
All the failed capacators seem to be from the company JPCON. On my motherboard (that also failed) they are branded JACKCON.
So if you board has these capacators, I'd keep an eye on them.
Re:What board models are affected (curious) ? (Score:2)
Re:What board models are affected (curious) ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Good question. I don't remember exactly when I built that machine. The 800Mhz Pentium III was fairly new when I got it, and 'orribly expensive. I'd guess it was 2001.
I also remember being annoyed at these new 1Ghz CPU's that made my machine obsolete
Re:What board models are affected (curious) ? (Score:2)