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Student Suspended For Taking Teacher's Challenge
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Dec 21, 2000 01:07 PM
from the never-trust-anyone-over-30-inches dept.
from the never-trust-anyone-over-30-inches dept.
CygnusTM writes: "The Seattle Times has a story about a high-school student who has been suspended for cracking a school computer after being challenged to do so by a teacher. The teacher says he wasn't serious. Raw deal." Aaron Lutes apparently got tripped up for what should have perhaps gotten him extra credit. The article notes: "The Lutes family and the district also acknowledge that Lutes' computer-science teacher, Giovanni Colombo, told students they'd get a reward from the software company if they cracked the security system and that Colombo wanted a 10% cut of that reward." Welcome to school, take a seat.
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Student Suspended For Taking Teacher's Challenge
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Re:Well... (Score:5)
A closer one would be if this was a lock-smithing class and he was told he would get a reward if he could pick the front door lock to the school, went ahead and did it - after hours when the school door is actually locked - then got busted for letting them know that he did it. A student makes little distinction among the authority figures in his school, so ends up being perceived as more than a little deceptive, and of course, completely unfair.
The teacher obviously didn't believe any of his students could pull off the crack, and is too spineless to step up for his students when one of them gets into trouble as a direct result of his teaching. The example this teacher is presenting for his students is appalling. What ever happened to integrity?
Re:What do you expect, teacher's are stupid (Score:5)
(Incorrect Grammar During Dictionary Flame, -3)
Utter his name... (Score:3)
Ten bucks says we've just seen the subject of JonKatz's next book
. . . and perhaps even a majority of the content between the covers.
--
You think you have it bad? (Score:4)
I had a somewhat similiar experience (Score:5)
Some kind of rumor got started that I was working on a disk that could be inserted into any of the school computers and would then bring the entire district network down. The first I heard of it was when I was summoned to talk to the principal (and all the administrators who had also gathered in the office specifically to discipline me). My computer priveleges were revoked for a month because they didn't want to "take chances".
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Re:I had a somewhat similiar experience (Score:3)
They should have been deathly afraid of their wimpy security instead.
Smells like conspiracy (Score:5)
A few years back Mr Columbo recomends site blocking software A. Kid breaks through software. Mr Columbo looks like an ass because some 14 year old kid comprimised his recomended security. Rather than be a professional about it and say "gee ok maybe I should ask this kid what we should use" He probably spent his time thinkin of ways to get back at him.
Over the course of the next year, Mr Columbo does his best to alienate this kid from the rest of the population. Prolly embarasses him in front of the class, continually tries to opress his free though.
Eventually the kid gets to a state where no matter what he tries, he knows Mr Columbo (god i love saying that) does not like him, he wants to do good in school so he's willing to do whatever it takes to get back in his good graces.
Mr Columbo makes a joke, telling the students to crack the file security system. Kid is so desperate to get on his good side he takes it literally, so he begins his work.
After comprimising system, kid goes back to Mr Columbo hoping he will acknowledge his work. Mr Columbo acknowledges it, then turns around and reports to the school "hey this kid is a 3v1l h4ck3r" to get the kid who made him look bad a year ago out of his hair.
The whole thing smells like entrapment if you ask me. Just like the corporate world except if a job is this bad, at least you can quit.
I'm willing to donate $100 bucks to this kids legal defense fund. It's not much, but its all I can offer right now. Let me know where to send the check, maybe the rest of us
--Toq
Re:What do you expect, teacher's are stupid (Score:3)
1. Some people teach because they have to (that's all they know, or they can't get a job better than that).
2. Some people teach because they love to.
Obviously, you're going to run into some teachers in the first category who hate their job, hate the students, and might even hate life too. If you combine that with frustrated students, you're only asking for trouble. Unfortunately there are all to many teachers who fall into this category, and they are probably responsible for where the public school system is today.
The teachers in the second category are really the ones that CAN make school how it should be: EDUCATIONAL. Still though, if you have a teacher in the second category and a student who makes that teacher's job a hassle to him/her, you're still asking for trouble. This should be solved with the teacher realizing that they're just kids, and you've got to brush most annoyances off.
So there you have it. Often times, yes, the teachers are the problem, but not all the time. You've got to remember that an adult interacting with a group of teens going through puberty (or kids at any age) has got to be incredibly hard no matter what you're doing...
So, give them some credit
Analysis and Comments (Score:5)
The teacher is an employee of the school and the school system. His role is also that of a guardian. While there are examples of teachers smoking up with their students and numerous other breaches of protocol within nations schools, these are pretty universaly reguarded as a "Bad Thing"(tm).
All in all, the teacher does assume responcibility for the control he has over his students and for the instructions he gives to his students. High School students are (for the most part) under the age of 18. Consequently we do not expect them to have as sophisticated a sence of right and wrong as we expect from adults. Hence we try them as minors, not adults, in a court of law. The same applies here, the teacher does, to a certain degree, set down the moral standards. This is doubly so in a moral question as complicated as computer security (we all agree that murder is, no pun intended, pretty cut and dry?).
Lastly, we must take into account the legalities of the entire question. Did the student do any damage? No. Did the student access any files he was not supposed to read or in any way breach confidentiality? No. Is legal action being pressed against the student? Not as far as we know. All that's happened is the kid is suspended. In short, the school is enforcing its rules and regulations on a student. However, the student was told, by a representitive of the school, that his actions were within the scope of his course and were not condemned by the school.
How is this different than a store owner saying "Oh, you can have that, its free" and then calling the cops as soon as you walk out the door with it, accusing you of shoplifting?
Bottom line, the teacher screwed up. His actions were totaly unprofessional and demonstrate a real lack of forthought. He should be fired immediately. The student's suspension should be revoked without further delay, and the school should issue a formal appology, both to the student and the student body as a whole.
When the system values itself above the needs and rights of those it serves it is corrupt and earns the distrust and contempt of its masters.
Yea my spelling is wretched. Deal with it.
Re:Lame lame lame (Score:5)
Yes, it's great to be smug about how much money you're making, but did you ever stop to consider that you're really not worth that? I mean, "to society". Your inflated wage is a product of market dynamics, skilled computer workers are in short supply, so basically, if a person can turn on a computer, they can have a job. The supply of people who are skilled such as you (and I'm not disputing your skill/talent/intelligence - whatever), is much smaller than the demand.
This is the same exact reason why the RIAA can charge 20 fucking bucks for a CD that costs 50 cents to manufacture. (only they artificially constrain the supply). Perhaps the supply of skilled workers is somewhat artificially constrained (although I'm a vocal opponent of increasing H1-B visas). But in that analogy, that makes you no better as a net admin than n*sync is as musicians.
If the market changes, without a HS diploma, you are well and truly fucked. Supply does seem to be guaranteed to be short, even with the corporate lapdog congress increasing H1-B caps - but you don't know for a fact that *demand* is going to stay high.
There is a buttload of EXPERIENCED sysadmins out there, with decades of Unix experience, engineering degrees, etc. Right now, you're taking advantage of a system that permits a company to exist on a rediculously inflated market cap from a starry-eyed stock market. With lots of market cap, they can get lots of credit to buy fancy web servers, and hire high school dropouts for six figures. But as the economy slows, (debatable) and their market cap drops (that's indisputable, have you checked NASDAQ lately?), it's going to be harder for banks to justify credit to these companies, and as they default when they have no revenue to show for it, their payroll will be scrutinized.
In other words, to quote Vader "don't be too proud of this technological marvel you've created - the power to destroy a planet pales in comparison to the Force" (that is, market Force).
You are wise to "grab your share" before the market drops out - but make sure you arrange things so that you can KEEP it. And stop spending your nights at raves, because you just may find that someday, you're looking for the same job as a college graduate. Finish school and get that degree.
What has education become? A pile of shit. I do not dispute that. Don't you know that it has always been that? But at the top of that pile of shit is a piece of paper - which comes in handy when you need to wipe your ass.
www.adbusters.org (Score:4)
hehe. Me too. 6 figure income without a high school diploma -- gotta love it. This really just underlines the utter unimportance of what education has become.
I may be wrong - but Id venture a guess that you dont work for any Fortune 500 companies. You cant get a job here at XZY Auto (big 3 US Autos) without at least an Associates Degree. Which I have - and it was like pulling teeth to have the HR monkeys approve the dept. head's choice.
Im not discounting that the two of you may be talented (as am I IMHO) - but having an education can only help. Entering the workforce at 17 might seem like a good idea when your 17 but I wish Id have stayed and finished my second degree instead of returning to school at 25.
Times are good right now - and trust me, when things get tight, and the economy is at a reasonable level, finding a job is going to get very tough when you dont have a high-school diploma. Not impossible, but tough.. excepting your 0.001% 31337 troops of super keyboard ninjas - If either of you are that good you have nothing to worry about. If that is not the case (as laws of averages would probably say) you might realize later that education is not utterly 'unimportant'. Im not suggesting that it is an absolute must - and nothing else is important; but it does have value and says alot about the type of person you are and not just about the knowledge and skills you may/may not possess.
Re:Note to Self (Score:3)
Ah, memories (Score:3)
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Agreed. (Score:5)
As a teacher, if I dare my students, I should be able to live up to the consequences.
Education (Score:5)
What a joke. (Score:5)
I had a cool teacher.... (Score:4)
There were two computer science teachers on my school, and the other teacher was responsible for installing anti-virus software. But he didn't do his work very well, so my teacher asked me and a friend if we could write something to get him moving. This was in the DOS days, I didn't come to learn UNIX before I went to university.
We wrote a small program that would increase the time between each time a keystroke would be registered. After a thousand keystrokes, the delay would be 50 ms, or something, and then go linearly with number of actual keystrokes. It was really fun watching people working with those computers.... :-)
Well, the next day, the fun was over. New virus-scanners were installed, and we removed the program. The other teacher never understood what had happened, ours thanked us.
Another time, our teacher managed to delete C:\ ("are you sure (Y/N)?" "Bloody hell, yes, of course, I'm sure", "whooooops"), and he was very happy tons of "unauthorized" software were installed on the computers to bring it back, because he didn't have any undelete utility himself.
Re:Lame lame lame (Score:5)
Unfortunately, most high school teachers and staff do not understand when they have bright kids who know what they want to do in life and do it. Often times they tend to punish them for it.
However gloating about your success in your career doesn't mean anything above them. And if you are talking about college teachers I know one who would put you to shame (He's in a special niche, played his cards right and owns a lotus and a ferrari.)
The ironic thing, in my school everytime I rooted the servers they just asked me how I did it so they could patch it and let me on my way -- I earned a lot of respect from the computer department in my high school because of my maturity through everything. Maybe you should look at the actions of you - an aid is nothing, they mean jack. You should take the responsibility to talk to admins about it, as they are the final word.
You were not authorized to gain that access from someone who was capable of authorizing you -- therefor you were punished accordingly. Don't bitch about how unfair the system is if you aren't being fair with it.
He'll get his reward (Score:3)
Re:Um... cracking is wrong, m'kay? (Score:4)
When ruling China, Mao once started a "let's speak out campaign" in which he EXPLICITLY invited people to write about what was wrong with the country, allegedly in order to improve the quality of government. Many people were elated at this "breath of freedom" and openly spoke what was on their minds. Mao then had the critics neatly identified, categorized, filed and then eliminated.
I saw this, IIRC, in a British Channel 4 documentary. Links would be appreciated.
Similar Story (Score:3)
One day I did a little program that would just beep the computer a few times whenever you opened my hypercard stack. WELL, unknown to me, I coded the beep routine wrong, and it would beep the computer ~10,000 times.
As an added bonus to this blunder, I did it on Computer #1, the network server (unknown to me).
Yet to keep adding fun things on the pile, the code also beeped ANY hypercard stack that was oppened.
So to sum up the situation, by ACCIDENT, I created a hypercard stack that would Beep a computer 10,000 times whenever ANY hypercard stack on the network was opened. ALL BY MISTAKE !!
So the school called this a VIRUS, and i was givin 2 Weeks In School Suspencion, and I was almost Fined $2,000 for the 'Damages' I caused to the system.
God forbid a REAL hacker would ever break in. They wouldnt know WHAT to do.
Typical (Score:3)
I'm guessing he went to 2600 or l0pht or something, although the vaguarities will lead most people to think of pRon. Amazing how carefully chosen phrases like hacker and inappropriate web sites can sway opinion. Great reporting.
The point is being badly missed here. (Score:5)
- The teacher was in class giving this challenge.
- The teacher was seen by the student as being a voice of authority and acting as a representative of the school.
- Other students in the class heard what the teacher had said and interpreted it in exactly the same way as the student in question.
Given these three points, the student should be walking away scot-free. Here's an appropriate analogy. A bank manager is giving a seminar about the security of his bank and during this seminar, he says that the alarm company servicing that bank is so confident in their security that it will reward anyone who can disable the alarm system from inside the bank. He further challenges the seminar attendees to do just that and says that he wants a cut of the reward if they can do it, but that he doubts anyone can. Then, when someone who attended the seminar actually does what he chellenged them to do, he says that he was just kidding about the whole thingThe problem in the story is that the representative of the bank is acting in an official capacity as a bank official, and it could be fairly and successfully argued that anything he ways about his bank is said with the full weight and authority of his position. The same principle works for the school teacher. When a teacher speaks, it is with the full authority of the school, and the school district. That's how they can at least attempt to keep discipline, set grades, and make standards for the grades they do give, set curricula, etc.
AFAIK, the teacher screwed the pooch here by making a challenge to his students without the authority to follow-through correctly. It's not the students' fault if the teacher overstepped his bounds. They had no way of knowing he wasn't serious, and that he could keep them immune from harm, as he seems to have implied in his challenge (i.e. you'll get a reward and extra credit. That's a reward, not a punishment.).
That's my take on it, anyhow.
-Jimmie
Lame lame lame (Score:5)
Teachers padding their egos (Score:3)
In a high school chemistry class my instructor promised an A to anyone in the class who could name another positive polyatomic ion other than ammonium (NH4+). One student raised his hand an said H3O+, which is technically correct (IAAChemist). This instructor told this kid he was an idiot and said if he raised his hand again the rest of the semester he would fail him.
Responsibility (Score:3)
If the teacher said it as a joke, then he should have sent the students a clear indication that he was not serious. If he was serious, then he abused his trust and left one of his students to hang in the wind. The teacher, not the student, should be disciplined.
Re:Well... (Score:3)
--
Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom
So when does the teacher get busted... (Score:3)
My initial reaction was that the teacher was kidding and was just telling the students about the reward from the security company, but they claim that there never was a reward. So what would make a teacher lie like that?
And as far as the kid getting in trouble, at most maybe the school should have explained that it was a joke, this kid caused no damage, and in fact, immediately told the teacher when he had accomplished it.
Of courser the major problem is this: This is just another case of people ignoiring the real problem, the fact that security is pretty much a joke field. The attitude of "our lock is broken, and you have to pretend that it isn't, and if you don't play along we'll penalize you for pointing out our mistakes." Gotta love that.