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Linux Business

The Near-Term Future Of Open Source Desktops 243

Posted by timothy from the it's-a-comin' dept.
securitas writes "eWEEK has two related articles on the growth of open source software. The first article is about the growth of desktop Linux, featuring Lotus and the Open Source Applications Foundation (OSAF) founder Mitch Kapor, who says (among other things) that call centers will be where the next wave of growth for desktop Linux happens and that 10 percent of global desktops will be Linux in a few years. He bases his statements on a report by Eazel and GNOME Foundation co-founder Bart Decrem entitled 'Desktop Linux Technology and Market Overview' (PDF) mentioned last week. The second story is about open source software growth in the government sector where government agencies like the U.S. Census Bureau have embraced OS software for projects like the State and County QuickFacts site. Based on Perl, Apache, MySQL and Linux, the site gets 200,000 page views a day."
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The Near-Term Future Of Open Source Desktops More

The Near-Term Future Of Open Source Desktops

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  • Linux is cheap (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:52PM (#6438222)
    Call centers just need something for their monkeys to use that works, and the cheaper, the better. Linux fits that nicely. Doesn't need to play the newest games, or run the newest Windows software, just deal with callers.

    • Re:Linux is cheap (Score:2, Insightful)

      by SN74S181 ( 581549 )
      A call center 'desktop' doesn't even really need to be what people consider a 'desktop.' Just several specific buttons for dedicated tasks.

      These sorts of desktops run the risk of establishing Linux as the grunt-worker ghetto desktop.

      • Re:Linux is cheap (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Argnoth ( 689002 )
        I concurr, I work at an internet tech support callcenter, and we just recently switched to Linux from decaying win9x machines. I must say, even with being a very limited interface, they do give us everything we need to complete the job, and nothing more.

        We have Mozilla(renamed to netscape for people here who don't know what Mozilla is) A telnet client (for business purposes only) and a text editor. Very stripped down, But Very efficient.

        We are still trying to phase out the old windows mach

    • Thin Clients (Score:3, Informative)

      by stiggle ( 649614 )
      The latest thin clients (with no moving parts) are Linux based.
      The ones I've been playing with are from neoware [neoware.com]. Flash based OS and everything either X or Citrix off a central server. This is the sort of thing that call centres are actually using now, along with some fairly large industrial corps like Lockheed Martin (who I have to deal with).

    • Re:Linux is cheap (Score:5, Interesting)

      by iabervon ( 1971 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:35PM (#6439224) Homepage Journal
      Actually, having a machine that *isn't* a desktop is much better. What you want is an interface specialized to the task, without any of the distractions. Using a desktop operating system for a call center (or a point-of-sale terminal, or a number of similar applications) is like trying to dial a telephone with a GUI (go to File, then "Make call...", then click on the digits, click Okay...). Linux is ideal for this situation, because you can provide only a custom interface on the front end, and manage the machines entirely remotely.

  • My two cents...... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 56ker ( 566853 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:55PM (#6438241) Homepage Journal
    Once Linux is the main OS sold with new computers and Windows is the "optional extra" - then I'll regard it as a success. At the moment the market share of Microsoft means that most people know of one OS - Windows - and that is what they ask for with new computers....

    • Re:My two cents...... (Score:5, Funny)

      by aardvarkjoe ( 156801 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:02PM (#6438294)
      Until Linus is taken to court for maintaining an illegal monopoly and the judge threatens to cut him in half in order to foster more competition in the OS marker, I won't consider Linux a success.
    • An "extra" that detracts... that's some newfangled mathematics you got there!
      • That's a matter of opinion - I meant it to mean extra as in extra memory, extra CD-rewriter - things not part of the bog standard specification that you have to pay extra for. By extra it just meant something extra - not implying that it added extra value.
    • So an operating system isn't a success until it's #1? I'd hate to meet your children: "sorry, but unless you're the best at everything, you're failures".

      Linux is a success on the desktop when it has a secure, decent-sized desktop userbase. Expecting a majority is both unreasonable and silly (see the kid example for why it's silly).
      • I didn't say that & I don't have any children. I don't expect a majority for Linux - that's an unachievable goal - it's just that lack of true competing OSes has led to many of the problems we have today. Microsoft hasn't had to innovate, bring down prices etc as they haven't had competition (and have done their best to avoid anybody being in a position to compete).
    • "then I'll regard it as a success"

      Once they start giving cornflakes away with milk then I'll consider cornflakes a success.

    • Re:My two cents...... (Score:3, Informative)

      by bsharma ( 577257 )
      In San Diego, a major whitebox vendor (Microtron 2000) offers Lindows as the 'default' OS (at no 'cost'). Many others including Fry's, Walmart offer a bare machine or free Linux/Lindows. Agreed your benchmark is a while away, but things are changing rather fast. Notice that MS no longer offers stock options - they are recognizing that free lunch days are over. They are also increasingly doing more of their development offshore - sign that they want to save money above all else. Don't be surprised if MS beco
      • Firstly I live in the UK. Only one out of those three (Walmart) own supermarkets here - and as far as I know they don't sell computers through them. Things may be changing quickly in the US - but the rest of the world is on a time lag...... also notice that MS started giving its shareholders dividends (it used to be just a growth share). Every business wants to save money. ;o) The quickest way to profits is to reduce overheads. Regarding RCA, US Steel or Lucent - I have only vaguely heard of the last.
    • Right now, the killer application is basic e-mail. That is the #1 application for which most people use their computers.

      What cripples Linux is that major Internet-Service Providers (ISPs) like AOL do not provide a Linux client through which you can dialup a connection to AOL. Hence, the average consumer will reject a Linux desktop because she simply cannot get e-mail.

      It's really that simple. Once all the ISPs provide a dialup client on Linux, then Linux will make a major dent into the desktop market.

    • Once Linux is the main OS sold with new computers ... then I'll regard it as a success

      When Linux is an OPTION for a cheap desktop PC direct from Dell, it'll be a success. Why should a small company (who could really use the cost savings) use Linux when just about every major retailer only sells PCs with Windows already installed.

      • Re:My two cents...... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by 56ker ( 566853 )
        Companies won't provide an option unless they think there's a demand. They won't do that until their customers get stropy with them in enough numbers to force an option..... despite people's grumbles about Windows - most people aren't prepared to do much to change the status quo. It's the larger companies (with OS licences for thousands of employees) that they large cost savings could be made though - not just in initial cost - but ongoing savings.

    • Re:My two cents...... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Daengbo ( 523424 )
      This is already the situation in Thailand. Most of the local makers are competing so heavily on price that Windows is the option. Liberta computers has their own version of Linux, in fact, standard on every computer. Fully 70% of the computers in any department store run some version of Linux, with the others having WinXP on a "30 day trial."

  • yes (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lurgyman ( 587233 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:55PM (#6438242)
    Another place that could use this might be places like public libraries, where pretty much all you need is a working browser. Plus, a place like that could give some nice exposure to Linux.

    • Re:yes (Score:5, Insightful)

      by 56ker ( 566853 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:58PM (#6438269) Homepage Journal
      Here the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation donate computers (with yes Windows) to at least one local library. I think the Microsoft way is - get people used to Windows - in school, college & university - then people know of no other OS - let alone its benefits or how to use it. It's a shame really that the OS market has ended up in this mono-culture. I blame it partly on the computer illiteracy of managers. Often they're the ones who have to authorise IT purchases - and yet they often know next to nothing about what they're buying.

      • Re:yes (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Eberlin ( 570874 )
        Hey, you too?

        Yup, here we have quite a few machines -- with NT and Office 2000 courtesy of "The Foundation." The place offers free basic computer literacy classes and all of the promo flyers have "made possible by a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation"

        I suppose it's nice when the library couldn't have sprung for neither hardware nor software on their own...but the machines are aging and NT support is going bye-bye. Will there be an eventual "forced" upgrade to XP? On these machines? Ha!

        Y
        • Well yes computer literacy is a problem - and yes people are shocked when they find out the price of MS products - there are large gaps in people's computer training though......

          Libraries AFAIK have a budget for buying new books - but not computers..... they'd have to apply to somewhere for the money for computers (or have them donated - as in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation).

  • The corner of the revolution ... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BillsPetMonkey ( 654200 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:55PM (#6438246)
    and that 10 percent of global desktops will be Linux in a few years.

    In a few years. We know the revolution is just round the corner. But how many corners do we have to revolve around?

    • Mitch Kapor says it will be around 2007 it right in the article:

      On the consumer and worker productivity side, large-scale adoption is unlikely before 2007, Kapor said, particularly as the breadth of applications available on Linux today is lacking

      • Re:Linux Revolution 2007 (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Micah ( 278 )
        particularly as the breadth of applications available on Linux today is lacking

        It can't be *that* lacking, since Munich is switching 14,000 desktops whole-hog to Linux.

        Personally, I find "10% market share in a few years" to be extremely pessimistic. If it has less than 30% share by, say, 2008, I'll be very disappointed.

        And I think that will happen. Once you get the critical mass, there will be virtually NO reason for ANYONE to stick with Windows, except for pure legacy apps.
    • As many as microsoft keeps making?

      Personally, I know I was going to migrate over right before win2k came out. Then win2k came out and fixed many of the problems I had with previous versions [making the reasons for migration moot]. Now Linux [and OS-X too] is back to a point where they are looking desirable again.

      • Desirable? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by xant ( 99438 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:05PM (#6438722) Homepage
        Because Windows has gotten worse (XP licensing bullshit) or because Linux has gotten better?

        Honestly, I haven't seen the latter happen, and this is from someone who runs only Linux on his home computer and, when a new game comes out, waits a few months for a Native or Wine-based port.

        From everything I've seen, XP is better than 2K if only it weren't for the licensing bullshit. A strategy to defeat Windows (and this assumes there is a think-tank working to defeat Windows, and I don't think this really exists) would have to involve licensing, and right now Microsoft is vulnerable. Linux is better because it's open, and free. Period. Don't make technical arguments, make licensing arguments.

        Q: "Is Linux better than Windows?"
        A: "Yes, but in ways that you'd have to be a sysadmin to really understand. In other ways, it's worse. There are defintely going to be tradeoffs, and you'll take some time getting on your feet again."

        Q: "Then why should I switch?"
        A: "Because technology freedom is more important than technology, in ways that matter to everyone, not just programmers and not just budget controllers. Everything in your computer should belong to you."

        People are responsive to this kind of argument, but it has to be presented honestly.
        • Mainly because my needs and know how have changed.

          Linux has gotten better, and alot of my problems in that regard have been fixed [better browser support, better apps, better install/packaging/hardware support]. Now that I've learned more [regexes mainly] many of the Linux apps are more appealing.

          Win2k hasn't really gotten better. Like you said, the licensing is unacceptable to me, even if XP added anything worthwhile. Windows software [other than games] haven't really increased at a pace to distance them
    • Future of Windows desktop in the near future ...........

    • Re:The corner of the revolution ... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Hortensia Patel ( 101296 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:47PM (#6438580)

      Is this boiled-frog syndrome?

      Perversely, I think maybe we're getting so used to the gradual flow of success stories that we're losing sight of just how far Linux has come in the last few years. Five years ago, the notion that governments and corporations would be rolling out Linux desktop deployments numbering into five figures would have been comical to even the most rabid zealot. Now it's almost commonplace. The rate of acceptance has been phenomenal. Five years from now I'd certainly expect OSS OSes to make up more than 10% of worldwide installs, and at that point it's a done deal - the operating system will be a commodity, and the closed-source vendors will be either giving their OS away to support app or service revenue, or actually having to work for a living.

    • Well, when you go around four corners, you're back where you started. I'm sure there's something meaningful in that.
    • A circle is just a polygon with an infinite number of corners.

  • Only 200,000? ) (Score:2, Funny)

    by Chmarr ( 18662 )
    Based on Perl, Apache, MySQL and Linux, the site gets 200,000 page views a day.

    That's really cool... but in a different way. It makes me feel really proud of my Python, Apache, MySQL and (Linux|NetBSD) site (two locations) that gets 400,000 pageviews a day! :)
    • Gah, I'm stupid, it's PostgreSQL, not MySQL.
      • Thanks you made my day ...

        I have Linux, LVS, Heartbeat, apache, php, mysql, bind etc etc @ just under 20,000,000 page views a day. (no not a typo 20 million)

        And btw it's a site that nobody has heard of.. (well besides our customers)

        P.S. what is the url of you site?

  • When will MySQL Grow up? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by simul ( 113898 ) * <slashdot@documentroot.com> on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:58PM (#6438271) Homepage
    Enterprise features like layered transactions, replication, stored procs, load balancing, etc. are available using Postgres...but you can't find developers and cheap hosters that run Postgres anymore. Was it just the name "MySQL" that made it popular?

    • Re:When will MySQL Grow up? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by gmg ( 94371 )
      According to the bigwigs at this year's mysql conference, mysql 5.0 in development will have support for stored procs [mysql.com]

    • Re:When will MySQL Grow up? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      > Was it just the name "MySQL" that made it popular?

      MySQL has a corporation directly backing it, and thus has a bigger marketing budget / wider public exposure than the PostgreSQL project.

      Consider this a business school case study on why marketing matters, even in tech fields.
      • You make an interesting point about marketing. MySQL could very well be the VHS of OS databases to PostgreSQL's Betamax. PostgreSQL clearly wins out when it comes to a mature, stable feature set (the one perhaps sole place where MySQL shines in comparison is in being lightweight and fast at performing SELECTs--and even there the difference is undetectable in most situations). However, MySQL enjoys a higher profile and "better marketing"

        Does this mean that PostgreSQL is doomed to the same fate as Betamax
    • I think MySQL's success is its use with PHP. Everyone knows of PHP-MySQL websites, and there are lots of books and online tutorials and such. You don't find much about PHP-Postgres...
    • MySQL doesn't need to "grow up"... at least not quickly. Let it mature at its own pace. Frankly speaking I just don't get it why people do the "MySQL vs Postgres" thing every now and then. Postgres targets a different set of users than MySQL, which does not even pretend to be a full fledge DB system.

      Why is MySQL popular... because it's light, and Postgres is bloated if you compare them in a sense of DB backend support needed to run a dynamic web site.

      Could it also be due to the "hard as hell to install" f
    • I think MySQL is more popular because it is easier to set up and start working with. Many people claim that this is not the case and Postgres is just as easy, but these people don't look at it from the point of a newbie.

      MySQL installation: Grab the RPM's, rpm -Uvh *, or use InstallShield on Windows. That's it. There is nothing else to set up, there isn't even a default password anymore when connecting from localhost. It's literally a 2 minute process.

      Contrast this with PostgreSQL where you got to bootstra
      • Contrast this with PostgreSQL where you got to bootstrap the damn database as the user running the daemon process. [snip] Postgres also includes the notion of database maintenance.

        To paraphrase, then, the PostgreSQL packages for your OS don't automatically set up the databases and put vacuum in a cron job, but the MySQL packages do all of the relevant setup. I wonder if an email to your distributor's bug tracking system might be in order...

  • LINUX, Windows, UNIX, OS/2 it Doesn't Matter. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by banal avenger ( 585337 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:59PM (#6438277)
    Just as long as my internet works, I don't care. Where I work, we use LINUX, Windows, and Mac OS X (the latter being used only on my machine). There is no liberation of the masses for the masses. They don't care. Two of us are LINUX fans, and the other 10 use windows because they just want to check their email. They don't want to ever touch anything in the command line, and I can't wholly blame them.

    LINUX makes sense for the corporate IT infrastructure. The UNIX of old is expensive, and Windows is buggy and (also) expensive. As long as people can get sub-$600 PCs running Windows ME, they will buy them because they simply don't care. And their job and their life has nothing to do with computers other than that everything happens to need computers today. The end all is "If ain't broke, don't fix it." My computer checks my email. And lets me read slashdot.
    • OK, but let's say you are a company with 100+ PCs and you've just signed an MS licensing plan which is costing an arm and a leg for a bunch of features that your people don't really need anyway.

      In 3 years time, you'll be asked to sign up again. Instead you could get everyone onto Linux, Open Office and Mozilla which would do the job (and in 2 years, OOo will probably be fantastic).

      The other users, home users just ain't upgrading. They can do their email, browsing and send letters. Why do they need a 2.4

      • Yes, in 2 years, OO will probably be fantastic. The problem is, people who will need OO to be fantastic in 2 years need it to be fantastic now. There's nothing we can do about that.

        The biggest issue is that with IT budgets being cut and money for training and general expenditures becoming slim to none, it's really hard to sell Linux. Sure, the long-term costs are cheaper in most instances, but in the short term, the money just isn't in the budget and the shareholders don't want to hear "well, this will
    • If both solutions work and once costs less people will care. The tricky part is to get it to stage where it works well for a reasonable amount of people.

      For me I think anything above 20% is just icing on the cake. Once Linux gets 20% desktop penetration the hardware vendors and the boneheaded web designers will not be afford to code just to the microsoft products.
      • 20% isn't so easy to do. It's a nice ideal, but the Mac has been "supposed to take over" for almost 20 years now. True, it is less open (but in my open a nice balance of openess and closedness) than LINUX, and LINUX has that going for it. But the a large issue with LINUX is that it's hard to get away selling non-open source software on LINUX. Developers won't be able to afford to ignore 20% of the users IF LINUX gets there, but they also won't be able to afford to give their software away for free, and
        • " 20% isn't so easy to do"

          No it's not but neither is it impossible.

          "But the a large issue with LINUX is that it's hard to get away selling non-open source software on LINUX. "

          Is it? Why? Oracle runs on linux, websphere runs on linux, DB/2 runs on linux, just about any major enterprise software be it SAP, Sybase, peoplesoft etc all run on linux. They are also all closed source and are very expensive.

          "Developers won't be able to afford to ignore 20% of the users IF LINUX gets there, but they also won't be

  • Depends (Score:5, Insightful)

    by papasui ( 567265 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @06:59PM (#6438279) Homepage
    on what the call center does. I'm sure it would work fine for dealing with customer accounts. However, many call centers are software support. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to put linux on a machine when you are supporting Windows or a Windows application. Credit card, insurance, and similiar industries probably could move to linux easily with the exception of required office applications. OpenOffice might be able to fill in that role though, and it would significantly reduce overall cost.

    • Re:Depends (Score:2, Insightful)

      by jtw123 ( 685762 )
      Another factor being the availability of decent call tracking/ticketing software.
      If you've just dropped huge money on a commercial package (which may be Windows-centric), an office full of Windows licenses may seem reasonable in comparison.
    • Some call centres don't even have office.

      One that I helped set up had a series of applications talking to a printing package which central templates had been defined in.

      People just entered the action on a screen, and the server sent a request to the printing package which printed a letter on a central printer.

      All the applications ran through a browser. That company could move the call centre desktops to Linux very easily.

    • Re:Depends (Score:2, Interesting)

      by rawshark ( 603493 )

      However, many call centers are software support. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to put linux on a machine when you are supporting Windows or a Windows application.

      You're confusing "customer support" with debugging. The first round of customer support only records the symptoms of the problem into a database and offers some known solutions (make sure X is installed, reboot your computer, powercycle your cable modem, etc). Only when all else fails do they try to reproduce your problem on an in-house syste

    • Re:Depends (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Zebbers ( 134389 )
      they dont sit there and run the program while you call
      they have a list of problems and resolutions
  • Although Linux is a good solution for call centre workstations that doesn't take into consideration corporate workstation standards. In a help desk type of environment, I would hazard a guess that most call centres are simply departments within a larger company. They probably don't have any say whatsoever in what kind of desktop OS - the internal corporate IT department does.

  • Except for today... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by phraktyl ( 92649 ) * <wyatt@dra g g oo.com> on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:09PM (#6438345) Homepage Journal
    Based on Perl, Apache, MySQL and Linux, the site gets 200,000 page views a day.

    Except for today, when we line it up for a good Slashdotting.

    To be more on topic, I wonder how much of this is chosen by the PHBs ("I've heard a lot about this Linux, maybe we should use it for this next big project.") and how much is chosen by the admins without PHB approval ("Well, we need this project up on a server, and we have this old PII-400 laying around, let's just throw Linux on it, fire up Apache and mod_perl and then take an early lunch."). I know that when I was in the Air Force, I saw the latter happen much more often than the former.

    • Re:Except for today... (Score:2, Informative)

      by ctve ( 635102 )
      But that's often what smallish dynamic businesses require. They don't want to have to contact Microsoft everytime they move software around on boxes.

      Let's say also that you have an urgent need for a solution. Do you go through all the hoops of purchasing a WinXP server with SQL Server (including internal purchasing), or download Apache/PHP/MySQL and get coding? Particularly if it is a short term, internal low-risk solution.

  • 10% of the desktop!? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:09PM (#6438350)
    What is this, some kind of new slimline case model?

  • Same old discussion... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by henriksh ( 683138 ) <hsh@freecode.dk> on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:11PM (#6438363) Homepage
    Ok, Windows vs. GNU/Linux on the desktop is no new discussion, but here goes...:

    I think that GNU/Linux in many ways are equal to or better than MS Windows considering apps. A recent GNOME or KDE provides a great working environment with good browsers, email apps, etc. etc.

    A problem for GNU/Linux _from a joe user standpoint_ is the inherent security and multi-user nature of UNIX-like OS's. Windows has a history of insecurity, but that also means no hassle with passwords and the like.

    This "hassle" and inherent security are of course Right Things, but Joe User just thinks it's annoying.

    • Re:Same old discussion... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by tabdelgawad ( 590061 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:03PM (#6438712)
      As the AC reply above notes, secure multi-user environments are becoming the norm on desktops, so that can't be the barrier to Linux adoption.

      I upgrade hardware and reinstall/update OSs for friends all the time, and I always ask myself whether I could honestly recommend Linux for their desktops. At this point in time, I can't. And there's one major reason: the lack of a distribution-independent and *easy* (read GUI) method of installing and updating third party software. There are other reasons (immature GUIs for some distros and possible lack of some apps and hardware drivers) but this is the big one IMO.

      Yes, I'm aware of the wonders of apt-get and synaptic and I know many distributions have very easy ways of keeping your core system current, but that's not really the issue. Central repositories for OS updates make sense, but expecting your distro to 'repackage' every piece of third-party software out there is extremely inefficient (and impossible anyway!).

      Given the way Linux is developed and the whole idea of 'dependencies', I don't really know what a soultion to this problem would look like. Maybe one or two distros will dominate all the others and allow third-party developers to standardize on them, but of course you'd lose the diversity or bazaar-style develpoment which is one of Linux's strengths. If anyone else has ideas, or knows what direction Linux developers are taking on this, I'd be curious to know ...

  • The war will not be won in the US of A (Score:5, Interesting)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:12PM (#6438369) Homepage Journal
    Where Windows is so heavily entrenched. It will be won (if it is won) in developing countries which currently have few computers. As computers get cheaper - It's only a matter of time before a machine capable of doing decent websurfing and whatnot hits US$50 - they will become more popular in poorer nations, and those people won't want to pay more for a windows license than they are paying for a computer.

    It would be great to get a serious effort to send "old" (meaning 200MHz and up) computers to third world countries, loaded with open source operating systems. Macs, PCs, whatever. The problem is that to send them all there would cost more than to just buy new ones from a local manufacturing plant :P Maybe we could load up a few shipping containers, weld 'em shut, and just drop them in the ocean. The countries where they wash up get the computers.

    • As computers get cheaper - It's only a matter of time before a machine capable of doing decent websurfing and whatnot hits US$50 - they will become more popular in poorer nations, and those people won't want to pay more for a windows license than they are paying for a computer.

      What a silly idea! Cheap things don't sell! Load something with sufficient buzzwords, make it new and shiny, get several sites to drool over it and swim in money! Businesses are out there to make profit, not to make cheap PCs. E

    • As computers get cheaper - It's only a matter of time before a machine capable of doing decent websurfing and whatnot hits US$50 - they will become more popular in poorer nations, and those people won't want to pay more for a windows license than they are paying for a computer.

      I'm partly guessing, but don't be too surprised if it were to turn out that US$50 could feed and clothe someone for six months in many developing countries.

      Developing countries often have a much lower cost of living and peo

      • It wouldn't surprise me at all if US$50 would feed and clothe a family for six months, the way some people are living today but the idea is to help people help themselves by providing them information and education, and this can be done via the web. (Computers are not enough, you need 802.11 also.)

        Really and honestly, the biggest problem in getting donated computers to people is, well, getting them to people. Transportation. The cost of running around and picking up all the PCs is tremendous if you're goi

    • Dude, if a container full of 486's washes up on my beach, I'm coming after *you*.

      Seriously, we have a little box at work that measures about 4x4x2 inches and supports web browsing (including flash, etc). I'm not sure how much it costs, but if something like it were produced in enough numbers, $50 would not be inconceivable.

      Unfortunately, we are experiencing a hurricane atm, so I'm not at work and can't find out what kind of box it is.
  • "the site gets 200,000 page views a day."

    Why did they bother upgrading? Even 2000 server can handle that.

    • Yeah, you can run Apache and MySQL on Windows 2000, but you forgot Microsoft no longer patches and supports Windows 2000. If you were to run a web service off of Windows 2000, then you're asking for trouble.

      Besides Linux + MySQL +Apache can scale a lot better, and has less over head and it's can do more with the same resources finacially and maintence wise. You really want to start down the Microsoft Lincese Plan to hell?

      Microsoft might as well stop patching and supporting their current server operating

  • Them Open Sourcers (Score:2, Interesting)

    by inertia187 ( 156602 ) *
    About them Open Sourcers,
    ain't they codin' warriors.
    Writing under licenses,
    coded by they lawyers.
    Some code on a payroll,
    but usually it's free.
    BSD to GPL,
    they code for all to see.
    Them happy slappy Open Sourcers,
    they rights shall not be lost.
    Keeping libs bug free because
    you just can't beat the cost.
    How to be an Open Sourcer,
    there's no hidden catch.
    Find an open project,
    'n submit an open patch.

  • Call Centers.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mumblestheclown ( 569987 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:23PM (#6438444)
    Why Call centers?
    • In case you missed it, the call center market is past its prime. there is excess capacity from ireland to india to irkutsk.
    • As a result, call centers are forced to compete on price. Linux desktops help this? Maybe, maybe not. Yes for the largest call center (2000+ppl) places where software licence compliance will actually be checked. Less likely for smaller places where the cost of software is effectively moot.
    • While a few manufacturers of desktop "suite" applications for call centers exist, many places just cobble stuff together on their own. this is doable in linux or on windows or whatever. For that reason, call centers are a good place for linux/desktops - the primary application more or less exists in a vaccuum. but call centers are hardly indicative of wider linux desktop use. Home/general business use is far diferent.

    • Re:Call Centers.. (Score:4, Informative)

      by dagnabit ( 89294 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:30PM (#6438877)
      And this is one of the prime targets for Sun's "Mad Hatter" Linux-on-"white box"-PC product due Any Day Now(tm) (or is it Real Soon Now(tm)?). All the goodness you need: RedHat 9, Gnome, StarOffice, Evolution, GAIM, etc.

      Sun will maintain ownership of the hardware (5u|\| 0w|\|z J00 d00d!), and customers will pay a per-seat monthly/ quarterly/ whatever fee. Something breaks, field service will just yank the box and drop in a new one, run the kickstart script to build the machine to latest versions from a backend server. I think there was some talk of a "self sparing" option so that the company could keep a couple of "idle" boxes on the network to drop one in themselves if needed.
    • call center market is past its prime
      The call center market has matured - it's not past it's prime unless you are looking for easy $$$. The days of going in and selling $7.5 Mil of crappy CRM/Call Center software and ridiculous ammounts of unneeded hardware are over. Now that the market has reached saturation, buyers become more savvy and vendors have to become more useful.

      Call Center managers and owners have their metrics down to a science and increasingly benefit from custom applications. Why? call c

  • Kinda sad that Linux is the only other option (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:30PM (#6438485)
    Note: I like Linux, and I have a dual boot Linux/Windows machine at home. I've used UNIX, Linux, and Windows professionally (old school MacOS, too).

    Windows has its share of troubles. The idealistic among us don't like Microsoft's market domination. The security-minded don't like the multitude of holes. But take both of those out of the picture, and you end up with a simple question: Is the Linux desktop experience, including applications, really significantly better than Windows in some quantifiable ways? In my personal experience, the OSS desktop environment developers have been playing a game of catch up with Microsoft. Sure, Microsoft didn't invent the GUI. We all know that. But it's not like Linux + KDE|GNOME is so much stunningly better than Windows that there's a reason to jump ship to it. At the same time, realize that there are many, many happy Windows users *and* developers. The anti-Microsoft angst is largely from a certain crowd. The end result is that this issue is largely a muddle. If you paint it to be a clear-cut battle, then it's not representative of reality.

    Choice is good, yes, but realize that this choice already exists. Is beating Microsoft and getting everyone to use the Linux kernel a win for choice?

  • Needs more pushing in schools (Score:3, Informative)

    by rossz ( 67331 ) <ogre@noSpAM.geekbiker.net> on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:41PM (#6438547) Journal
    I'm contracting at a major corporation (one of the world's largest producers of wine). They are currently replacing hundreds of older machines, about 400Mhz, without brand new high end systems. All these older boxes are being donated to charity (public schools, I think). Unfortunately, the charities will want to run Windoze. They would barely get by with win98. If they try to run anything newer they won't be happy.

    If they would just switch to Linux and run one of the "lighter" (e.g. not KDE 3) desktop managers, they would get much better performance and save a fortune on software licenses.

    On an annoying note, today a 400Mhz dual processor system was tossed onto the charity pile. I want it. It would be a great replacement for my aging server, but they not only do not have a system for anyone to purchase old equipment, they actively discourage people from asking! That's just plain stupid. The school that ends up with that box probably won't even know what it is and will deploy it as all the others - with win98! ARRRRGGGHHH!

  • I love news like this (Score:4, Funny)

    by geekd ( 14774 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @07:47PM (#6438574) Homepage
    Based on Perl, Apache, MySQL and Linux...

    These are exactly where my job experience is. If only every website would standardize on this, I'd be employed forever. :-)

  • Going about this in the wrong way I think.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by KevinJoubert ( 161224 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:03PM (#6438708)
    Sometimes I think that everyone is going about this in the wrong way. Yes... the Linux desktop needs some work before my 70-year-old Aunt can use it... but the tools are all there. Its not like the desktop WON"T do what she wants, she just doesn't know how to make it work.

    For Linux to succeed on the desktop, I think two things need to happen... somebody like HP, IBM, or Dell needs to step up and sell systems that are pre-configured so that people don't have to mess with them. Just turn them on and away they go.

    Secondly, its the DOCUMENTS. The world needs to start using something other than .WMV for video, .PPT for presentations and .DOC for documents.
    The only reason MS has a stranglehold on the desktop is because people have been convinced they need to use those formats. Everytime I turn around I see a website or some CD that is forcing people to use these documents.

    The next time you are creating a document or file format.... even if its using Windows... force yourself to use .MPEG or .HTML. I create presentations in .PPT all the time (crossover office)... but I save them as .HTML. Same goes for just about any other office document.

    If anyone sends me a proprietary document format, I ask them to please re-save it in a format that I can use and send it again. Nobody has ever refused yet.

    Just a thought,

    -Kevin

  • IP Telephony (Score:5, Interesting)

    by benjamindees ( 441808 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:24PM (#6439152) Homepage
    Regarding call centers, I've come to the same conclusion over the past few months. Desktop Linux is a great solution.

    What Linux needs as a killer-app in this environment is good VoIP support. By good, I mean cheaper than Windows.

    Specifically, I'm thinking it would be feasible to add software echo-cancellation to some of the sound card drivers or as a separate module. That would easily shave another $50 off the price of a typical call center desktop, and probably more than that with the way people tend to break their $100 headsets.

    Does anyone know if this is possible?
  • A million LAMP sites doesn't make one useable Linux desktop.

  • 2 more non-geeks using linux on the desktop (Score:4, Interesting)

    by __aabvlw4075 ( 670771 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @11:05PM (#6439644)
    My dad took me over to his friend's house yesterday, because his friend was unsatisfied with his website. I got hired to redo it from scratch. After discussing how he wanted it, I somehow segued into open source software. My dad was complaining about his old computer and need for more storage space. I mentioned he could get a new computer off walmart.com for only $199. They were both shocked. I looked it up at wamart.com for them, and then the german (my dad's friend) pulled out his credit card and insisted I order one with his card to solve my dad's computer problems. He also wanted me to help him install linux on one of his computers, since he was frustrated he couldn't install windows XP on both (the install CD wouldn't let him). If he likes it he might install it on the other one, too. He kept saying "You can be free from Microsoft Windows??!!"
  • Having worked at two of those hellholes i can only confirm that they are cheap bastards doing anything to save a buck. Since they have so many workstations doing such simple things they are well suited to use linux. Only a handful of applications need rewriting. Funny thing, most systems i worked against was unix and even vax so using windows was in fact most "wrong".

  • I thought I used KDE on the desktop. If you swap the linux kernel our from under that in favour of a BSD, Solaris, or heck, a Windows [sourceforge.net] kernel, how would I even tell?

  • What???? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by mormop ( 415983 )
    From the article at e-week -
    putting pressure on Microsoft Corp Is this guy nuts or what?

    Nathan Hanks, managing director of technology for Continental Airlines Inc., said his concern is making sure that he can turn the Houston company's airplanes around as quickly as possible. As such, the open-source-community concept is not as appealing to him. When the SQL Slammer worm hit earlier this year, Microsoft responded immediately and addressed the issue. Its executives also visited him to discuss the matter.
  • http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/img/wordmark.gif

    Um. Anyone have any ideas why the logo has some letters highlighted and others just plain black text?

    USCENSUSBUREAU

    Just curious/paranoid.

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