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Opera Mini 3.0 Now Available 110

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the easier-to-send-embarrassing-pics dept.
E IS mC(Square) writes "Opera Mini 3.0 is out of beta. The feature list includes RSS integration, a user-interface geared towards mobile devices and small screen size, and it's fast for relatively slower mobile data connections (with picture upload/sharing if you are into it). Requirement for using it: You must have a phone capable of running Java mobile applications and are using an Internet connection (officially supported devices are listed)."
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Opera Mini 3.0 Now Available More

Opera Mini 3.0 Now Available

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  • What the hell is this? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @05:28PM (#17041036)
    A third grader's essay on some new product? Because that's what it reads like.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by mudeth ( 1010263 )
      I really couldn't care. For me, it's a welcome article. I use Mini regularly, it's much better that the Netfront that comes bundled with my phone. I had no idea a version 3 was in the making. With RSS!
    • Thanks for thinking so high. I am still in the first grade.

  • Opera 3 on a Treo 700p is HORRIBLE (Score:5, Informative)

    by Zelet ( 515452 ) on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @05:35PM (#17041132) Journal
    Do not attempt to use this version with the Treo 700p. The previous version of Opera Mini worked fine on my Treo but this version crashes the phone repeatedly when I try to use it.

    • Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)

      by morgan_greywolf ( 835522 )
      The previous version of Opera Mini worked fine on my Treo but this version crashes the phone repeatedly when I try to use it.
      Maybe this is an attempt to get people to upgrade to the new ($$$) Opera Mobile? The Treo 700p is one of the phones for which Opera Mobile has fancy new features for.

    • Same here on Treo 650 (Score:2, Informative)

      by vio ( 95817 )
      Same problem here, big crashes on Treo650 :-(

      Might be that my JVM is old (IBM JVM 2.2.012?) guess I'll see about updating it... older Opera Mini worked ok.
      • exactly same situation here.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Ilgaz ( 86384 )
        I think all should update their Java and stop blaming Opera :)

        Serious, my Sony Ericsson phone is a joke compared to Palm OS based devices, it works perfectly. I have even advertised it to couple of friends using J2ME MIDP 2.0 built in "SMS" feature.
        • I'm having the same problem with my 650, and I installed the latest greatest Java yesterday when I installed Opera. So I don't think it's old Java implementations (though I'm sure that doesn't help). It seems to me that it's just not ready for primetime.

          Anyone know where I can get OperaMini 2 so I can try that? I'm not impressed with Blazer, and I've given up on OperaMini 3 (there are only so many reboots I can go through before I just get p.o.'d).
          • Never mind -- I found the link elsewhere in this discussion. And sorry for the certified humor-free interpretation -- I didn't see the smiley the first time around ...
      • Same here on my Treo, and I've got the newest JVM. From what I've seen in the Opera forums, it seems to be a common problem for us Treo 650 owners, but Opera is working on it.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by pruss ( 246395 )
      Ditto on the Palm TX. It's looking like they couldn't have tested on any Palm devices (or maybe any NVFS-based ones), because I have yet to hear of it working with some Palm device.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Fred_A ( 10934 )
        Ditto on the Palm TX.
        :-(

        You mean we have to keep on using that crappy Blazer ?

        Damn, I was quite happy to finally be able to get rid of that turd. :-(

        I can't believe that my Revo+ (dead with the usual battery bug) actually has a better browser than my Palm...

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by coreyb ( 125522 )
        On my TX, I tried 3 different things:
        Installed the prc -- crashes instantly.
        Manually installed the advanced Midp jad and jar -- crashes instantly.
        Manually installed the basic midp jad and jar -- seems to work, but only with 320x320 screen. (Actually, it might be 160x160)

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by ncc74656 ( 45571 ) *
          It's no longer crashing my phone, but it still won't display webpages. As soon as it tries to display a page...OK, looks like I wrote too soon, as it just rebooted my phone when I tried to start it again. Earlier, when it tried to display a page, it'd briefly throw up a bar mentioning some sort of EULA for a couple of seconds, then exit back to the app list.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by blackmonday ( 607916 )
      Not a troll. My Verizon 650 crashes every time I start the program. It's on the supported list, oh well...It did manage to do an initial config, but now it just causes the phone to reboot.

    • Re: (Score:1, Redundant)

      by Electrum ( 94638 )
      It crashes my Sprint Treo 650 every time I run it.

    • I see the moderators are smoking crack again (Score:5, Informative)

      by ncc74656 ( 45571 ) * <scott@alfter.us> on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @06:42PM (#17042018) Homepage Journal
      In what bizarro world is the parent poster a troll? Once it did its setup thing on my Treo 650, it rebooted. More often than not, it reboots the phone as soon as you try to start it. If you do manage to get it running, it reboots as soon as it actually tries to display something from a website. Last time I checked, displaying stuff from websites was the primary function of a web browser.

      After deleting the copy I had installed in the phone's memory, I tried running it from an SD card. It behaved the same way there. Grr.

      I should've saved the previous version before installing this one, but I rarely used it. Blazer was more functional and easier to use for most things. For updating my On Tap in Vegas [nevadabrew.com] page when out and about, I found that Links running in an SSH [sealiesoftware.com] session would work.

      • I must agree. I wish that I had read that post before taking the time to download the Treo 650 versions of Opera Mini and the IBM VM...since I experience the exact same behavior. In contrast, Blazer is as solid as a rock. Can't say that i love it's features, but stability is pretty much a trump card. Perhaps a nice meta-moderator will fix that issue.

        Is anyone aware of an attractive alternative to Blazer on a Treo 650?
    • I had the same problem with my 700p, but, thanks to some help on the Opera forums, was able to find the link to Opera Mini 2, so you can "downgrade" until such time that the Palm-related issues are ironed out in Opera Mini 3.

      http://mini.opera.com/global/opera-mini-2.0.4509-a dvanced-int.prc [opera.com]
    • According to the Opera Mini forums (http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id =168423 [opera.com]) the problem has been identified and fixed. A new download might be in order. Now, if only Palm would pay IBM to make a new version of the JVM with less bugs... The current JVM is from 2004 IIRC, and riddled with bugs (hint: a Java app shouldn't be able to crash a phone).

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by johansch ( 9784 )
      The reported issues with Opera Mini 3.0 running on Palm Treos have now been fixed, and a new build (.prc file) that works better is now available at http://www.operamini.com/ [operamini.com].

      Please download the new build and give it a go!

      Johan Schön, Opera Software

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by elcid73 ( 599126 )
      You may now try again with Palm...

      http://my.opera.com/operamini/blog/show.dml/593477 [opera.com]

  • Possible for older low resource machines (Score:3, Interesting)

    by El Cubano ( 631386 ) on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @05:41PM (#17041210)

    The feature list includes RSS integration, a user-interface geared towards mobile devices and small screen size, and its fast for relatively slower mobile data connections (with picture upload/sharing if you are into it). Requirement for using it: You must have a phone capable of running Java mobile applications and are using an Internet connection

    I wonder if this might be a good choice for older machines as well. Think something like an old 486 or 1st-gen Pentium with 32 or 64 MB RAM and a 13" or 14" monitor. IIRC, there are stripped down versions of Mozilla available for mobiles (I'm not sure how feature complete or mature they are). But as they say, competition is good. Seeing as web browsing is probably the single most common activity, and arguably the best use of an old computer (running a word processor or some similarly resource-intensive application is probably a no-go). You can throw something like DSL on there and use a light-weight WM. I guess the main hangup would be being able to get Java ME running on it.

    • You might as well just run Opera proper...or maybe an old version [oldversion.com] of it. Opera is pretty light as it is.
      • Which version of Opera runs on PalmPS?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by El Cubano ( 631386 )

        Opera is pretty light as it is.

        Yes, but Opera proper is not optimized for small screens. I know that there is a bit of a difference between a handheld device and even a 13" CRT. However, most programs today look absolutely terrible on anything less than a 17" or 19" monitor. I know, because most of the computers at my church still have old 14" CRTs, and many programs are just barely functional at any resolution that is still readable on such a small screen.

        • Sure it is. Just press SHIFT-F11 and it switches to small screen mode, which emulates the behavior of Opera (the regular version, not Mini) on cell phones (Symbian, I think).

          • And Fit to width mode (Score:3, Informative)

            by Kelson ( 129150 ) *
            Opera 9 also introduced Fit to width mode: CTRL+F11. It's similar, but adjusts pages to your window size rather than to ~200px across and would be more suitable for 640x480 or 800x600 screens.

            Couple it with Full Screen mode (F11), and you can even hide all the toolbars, menus, borders, etc.
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by FST777 ( 913657 )
      Minimo [mozilla.org] is the mobile mozilla. WinCE/Mobile only. Besides that, I don't want to be the guy having the task of getting a decent Java VM running on a 486 to run Opera.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by mr.warmth ( 910296 )
      I never understood why people talk about old hardware like it's a retarded brother or something. You can run a hell of a lot more on a 486 than you could on your cell phone. In fact, I used to have a 468/66 that I'd browse the web on w. Win95. So why not, for example, use one of the browsers that we used back then? IE3 or Netscape 3/4? I am sure as horrid as those browsers seem compared to today's versions, they're much more complete than a cellphone browser.

      And as someone else pointed out, Opera itself is

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by IndigoParadox ( 953607 )
        The problem is the lack of support for even the most basic of current web technologies, such as XHTML or CSS. Try visiting even Google using an old copy of IE4 and you'll get script errors. I Pentium 75 laptop with Windows 95 and it's difficult to find a browser that does support modern web pages for such a platform.
  • Downloaded yesterday. Big news day!

    • Re:Yawn. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Ilgaz ( 86384 ) on Thursday November 30, 2006 @08:08AM (#17047636) Homepage
      It matters since

      1) While MS .NET tries to rule the World, a J2ME (Java) 98 kb browser (with httpS: and RSS support) runs on billion devices potentially.

      2) It uses Open Source Pike ( http://pike.ida.liu.se/ [ida.liu.se] ) to serve millions of users

      3) It is another barrier for MS infested device browsing (Run WinCE browser and see)

      4) It is from a small company which managed to stand against AOL and Microsoft just by supporting standards and rely on customer trust.

      5) It gives people even without a WAP 2.0 browser chance of surfing web, getting information without charge.

      6) Server structure handling millions of users is Linux ( easy, check http://gemal.dk/ [gemal.dk] with it)

      It is bad news for MSFT and .NET freaks which couldn't release anything like this and moron websites/coders managing to break every single standard. You know why? If your site is W3C compliant, it renders PERFECTLY on Opera Mini.
  • Here's where to download the JVM for Palm [palm.com] if you don't already have it.

  • Poor stability (Score:4, Informative)

    by diamondsw ( 685967 ) on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @06:04PM (#17041520)
    While I used Opera Mini 2.0 on my Treo and found it worked very well, the new version 3.0 crashes constantly (which, thanks to the lack of memory protection on the Palm, resets it). Reinstalled the JVM, Opera Mini, etc - no better. Downgraded to 2.0 and all was fine.

    Might want to wait for some bug fixes (although Opera doesn't generally push .01 updates to its "Mini" product).
    • Opera mini 2.x has been a whole lot better than Blazer on my Treo 650. Faster, easier, looks better. With the blazer I'd have to wait until it loads all the images and css load before the page makes sense (and load 100's of k's). With opera, it loads maybe 100k and it already has all the layout/images done.

      But it (opera mini 2.x) crashes a lot. Any crash takes down the whole phone (reboot), which isn't that stable to begin with. I tried the 3.x beta and couldn't browse more than about half a page befor

  • My phone is too old, I kept running out of memory when trying this out. I need a newer phone.

  • Very impressive... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This is an awesome little app. I was never able to load myphonefiles.com on any of the phones and this Opera applet displays it without a problem, even the most complicated pages with inner frames. Very impressive...
  • Not bad..I like the "folding" and the varied image quality..nice.. I'll have to play with it a little more.. But at this point I still like the built in browser better..
  • Works great on my Samsung SGH-A707
  • I never sync my Blackberry in the cradle, if fact I don't think I have the Desktop Manager software installed on my new work laptop. Ever since BES 4 came out there has been little need for it other than stupid apps which don't have an Over The Air install option, and I now just avoid those. So I guess the question is, does anyone have an OTA URL for this?

    • Re:OTA Install? (Score:4, Informative)

      by mottie ( 807927 ) on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @06:21PM (#17041766)
      If you visit http://www.operamini.com/ [operamini.com] on your blackberry it automatically detects your device type and gives you a download option. It recommended Opera Mini - International for me, but it was easy to switch that to Opera Mini - US.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by afidel ( 530433 )
        If figured it out, you have to use the Blackberry browser in WAP mode. I normally use the Internet Browser in IE emulation mode. The fact that you can't exit the app using the button under the scroll wheel (not sure of the name) is annoying, why is it different than every other Blackberry/J2ME app?
      • I just installed (which went fine) Opera mini on my Blackberry 8700c and all it did was give me connection issues.
  • The 3-step system download system is actually worth noting. I managed to find every single phone model I (or someone in my family) own and get a detailed message about whether it supports the Basic or Advanced version, possible issues (and this is actually a per model piece of information), they even have versions in my native language. It's great. It's a bit of a contrast to the annoying "suit yourself" release systems often found in other J2ME software websites.
  • I had to get back to the 2.0 version, since the new one kept crashing and freezing the computer. Shouldn't this have been checked more thoroughly? About half of the postings up right now seem to be about it not working correctly...
  • It makes my slow connection faster? It's (Note the apostrophe there. You should give 'em a shot. They're useful all over.) a miracle!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jZnat ( 793348 ) *
      Opera Mini uses Opera as a proxy, and they reformat the pages to work better on mobile devices (e.g. compression, getting rid of useless shit).

  • Mini vs. Mobile vs. Desktop - For the Record (Score:4, Informative)

    by Kelson ( 129150 ) * on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @06:26PM (#17041822) Homepage Journal
    Since invariably someone gets these mixed up, there are three main browser types that Opera produces:

    Opera Desktop - this is the full-up web browser that you can use on Widows, Mac or Linux (plus a few other Unixes)

    Opera Mobile - this uses the same rendering engine, but runs on smaller devices like PDAs and some phones. The DS and Wii browsers are probably based on this version.

    Opera Mini - this is the Java-based app that runs on virtually any JVM-capable phone and does a lot of the processing on a proxy server.
    • Opera Mini - this is the Java-based app that runs on virtually any JVM-capable phone and does a lot of the processing on a proxy server.

      So ... who's paying for the proxy server, and why?

      Call me a bit jaded, but I try not to use anything until I can at least figure out what their business model is. Last I checked, Opera is commercial software, at least nominally. What's their take from all this?

      • Re:Who's paying? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Ilgaz ( 86384 ) on Thursday November 30, 2006 @07:44AM (#17047440) Homepage
        When you have a working real life solution in hand which is run on millions (if not hundreds of millions) mobile phones, you got something to say to companies while trying to sell these:

        http://www.opera.com/products/devices/ [opera.com]

        Also it seems they got deal with Google which is also effective in this product (default search engine).

        Did you ever wonder why MS sunk billions of dollars in IE even while they are at court for monopoly? That was done with evil agenda, Opera supported nothing but open web standards since it was founded.

        So they got "karma" enough to type mini.opera.com in my K700i J2ME 2 phone wap browser right after reading this headline.

  • Java (Score:3, Informative)

    by fimbulvetr ( 598306 ) on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @06:34PM (#17041924)
    I love it that java guys say java is so fast, small and lean on mobile devices, yet Mysaifu requires 11mb to install on my 6700 and ibm j9 needs 50+mb. Small, my ass. Don't get me started on speed.

    For those needing the jvm for this or similiar devices, get one here:

    http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~dat/java/project/jvm/d ownload_en.html [biglobe.ne.jp]
    or
    search ibm.com for WebSphere Everyplace Micro Environment (You need to register to download)
    • Arggh, nevermind.

      In fine, normal java tradition, Mysaifu the jvm is incompatible with java programs.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Tx ( 96709 )
        MySaifu is compatible with java programs, but it isn't a midlet environment, which is what you need to run Opera Mini. See this pocketpcmag blog post [pocketpcmag.com] for full info on running Opera Mini on various devices.
    • And your point is ?

      There are a LOT of large applications in C, C++, XYZ language. The size of an application as much to do with a particular computer language as size of War & Peace has to do with english language!

      MySaifu (never heard of it) might be 11MB, but the application that the article talks about is 98KB ! (yep, a complete browser, photo snap/blog, RSS reader and more in 98KB!).

      Regarding your comment on JVM size. Blame your provider for not bundling IBM J9 VM. BTW, that VM isn't limited "mobile
  • Yeah, I know this phone is a dinosaur at this point but it's the on the "supported devices" list. Mine gets stuck at the "loading" screen. The phone itself isn't frozen, just Opera doesn't seem to finish loading.

    Anyone had any luck on this phone?
  • How about a GPL Java applet that implements an IAX2 client (Asterisk softphone), without any of the proprietary requirements of the few I've seen?

    Web browsers are old hat for programmers, and not very sexy for generating corporate action. Softphones are to 2006 what browsers were to 1995. Opera does a good job with lightweight browsers, and wants the mobile/embedded market. Where's it's HTTP/IAX client, that could put it ahead, instead of forever catching up?
  • Opera Mini 3.0 Not Available *YAY*
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Badfysh ( 761833 )
      Yeah mine too. I actually have the firmware mentioned in the "known issues" section, R1A081, but I thought what the hell and installed it anyway. Works pretty well.
  • Motorola A1200 Ming. Now to figure out how to remove the default browser from the home screen.
  • To present a success story, it installed and worked fine for me on a Nokia 6682. It can use the camera and everything. Pretty neat. I haven't tried the RSS reader yet. Otherwise it doesn't really seem very different than 2.0 on the surface.
    • I too have a 6682. I'm curious, do like it better than Opera Mobile? (I'm assuming your 6682 came loaded with Opera Mobile like mine did.) Is it worth it to switch from Mobile to Mini?
      • Since Mini is free, one might be inclined to recommend that you download it and decide for yourself.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by paulbiz ( 585489 )
        The interface in Mini seems a bit nicer than Mobile and the proxied page formatting definately makes the whole surfing experience faster. Thankfully, you do not have to switch. You can keep Mobile and install Mini and use whichever you prefer. I find myself alternating between the Nokia web browser and the two Operas depending on what I'm trying to access. None of them do everything right.
  • I updated Opera on my *Sanyo 4920 last night and I have to say I don't love the new version one bit.

    While I've not had a chance to check out the new features, the thing that sticks out is that after any page load, Opera now displays an error screen saying 'The server has closed a connection' or something like that. If I cancel out of the error screen I actually do see the new page loaded. It's weird and annoying and I don't see any reason for such a thing to happen, nor what I can do about it.

    I haven't trie
  • Seems to work just fine. I'm at home so bandwidth is poor (in the country) but in the city I am sure it will be fast. Will it slow down during peaks due to use of pre-processing servers? We shall see. Experience is good although takes more clicks then current BB browser to enter new urls, page back, exit application. Has more features though so I suppose this is acceptable.
  • I had a previous version of Opera Mini on my Palm TX (I was looking for something better than Blazer) a while back. When I fired it up for the first time it made me agree to their license agreement. I've never been one to blindly accept a license agreement. Now while I normally don't read the whole thing in detail, I'll usually skim a license if it isn't GPL, MPL, etc. I noticed something peculiar in their license (and I forget the details as it has been some time now), regarding the connection. I thin

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Well duh it uses another IP, because everything goes through a proxy......

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by aodash ( 776554 )
        okay, but no other browser that I use or know if uses a proxy. They don't have to proxy it.

        • Re:Opera Mini == spyware ? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by EvilSS ( 557649 ) on Wednesday November 29, 2006 @10:18PM (#17044270)
          I'm guessing someone didn't read on Opera's website about how Opera Mini actually works. They do have to use a proxy:

          Mini technology Opera Mini uses a remote server to pre-process Web pages before sending them to your phone. Web content is compressed to reduce the size of data transferred, enabling handling on simpler phones and creating fast browsing at low costs. http://www.operamini.com/features/ [operamini.com]

        • Re:Opera Mini == spyware ? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by famebait ( 450028 ) on Thursday November 30, 2006 @03:57AM (#17046458)
          The whole point of opera mini is the server. It is not just a proxy, it digests the page and adapts it to small-screen viewing before sending it to you.

          There are very good reasons for this:

          * The transformations are done in very intelligent ways that would be way too heavy to do on most phones in a timely fashion

          * The digested page has much less data to transfer, and can be compressed in proprietary ways since the client is known. (helps both speed and cost of use).

          * The client need only handle content of the format the proxy produces, so the implementation can be much simpler than a normal xhtml client. This way (along with their plain talent and experience in optimizing) they manage to get a java-based browser running on a jvm running on a phone to outperform the native one that comes with the phone. Damn impressive.

          Now if you want total privacy, fair enough. You don't have to use it, or you don't have to use it for everything. But it is made the way it is for specific reason that deliver very specific advantages. After getting used to Opera mini, the standard browser on my SE is close useless by comparison.

          And your ISP probably wathces you anyway; why trust them any more than opera?

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by knuxed ( 854959 )
        I have a feeling they use Google for its rendering,as i was surfin a site and suddenly an error message with the google logo was there
    • They have to use a proxy because they run the rendering engine in their servers in order to send a small and handheld friendly page to your device.

      As most cell phone companies bill you by the kilobyte, this results in HUGE savings there. Do you see the point?

      And no, Opera Mini is not spyware.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by aodash ( 776554 )
        Fair enough - I had forget that the primary market for Opera Mini is cell phones (I don't even browse the web on mine) and not the Wi-Fi enabled PDA I was testing it on. As such I didn't see the point of proxying the connection, especially when I may or may not trust who is proxying it.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by elcid73 ( 599126 )
          If you want to avoid the proxy, then look towards Opera Mobile. As Kelson pointed out above, this is the "real" mobile browser from Opera. Mini is designed to get users in the door with whatever phone or device they might have (I use it on my crappy RAZR phone) I would recommend you look at Opera Mobile before Mini. Of course, you have to pay for that one, but there is a trail IIRC

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dbIII ( 701233 )
      Have you considered that because they use a proxy that does things like resize images to fit in the mini version that the IP address will be different? Take a look at their website and read the fine article that describes how it works.
  • Posting from OM3 right now! Finally, it correctly detects and works with the US tmobileweb service. WooHoo!
  • Tried out opera mini this morning on my N80. I recommend sticking with the N80's built in browser as it is fairly capable as rendering full website. Maybe use opera mini if you are have to use a GPRS connection.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ilgaz ( 86384 )
      Nokia N80 built in browser=Opera Mobile licensed to Nokia. (Here is how Opera makes money)

      http://www.opera.com/products/mobile/products/s60/ [opera.com]

      Of course it is a full feature browser since your phone has a operating system based on Symbian.

      This is good for J2ME only devices while I used Mini for reading a simple article from Wikipedia on my S60 phone since it was compressed and faster.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by nissu ( 823183 )

        N80 built-in browser is most definitely not Opera Mobile. It's the new Safari-related S60 browser which uses lots of open source technology:

        S60 browser [nokia.com]

        However, I don't like this new S60 Browser at all. The idea of scrolling around a web page which has been rendered exactly as it would appear on a big display is simply horrible from a usability viewpoint. It's surely a nice gimmick to show off to people, but actual surfing with it is pretty much impossible.

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