System Integration Leads to MegaFunction Gadgets 104
nanotrends writes "The IEEE Spectrum is running a piece entitled 'Moore's Law Meets Its Match', about the system-on-package (SOP) approach to technology. The (SOP) approach combines Integrated Circuits (ICs) with micrometer-scale thin-film versions of discrete components, and it embeds everything in a new type of package so small that eventually handhelds will become anything from multi-to megafunction devices. This integration is actually developing at a rate faster than Moore's law." From the article: "SOP technology represents a radically different approach to systems. It shrinks bulky circuit boards with their many components and makes them nearly disappear. In effect, SOP sets up a new law for system integration. It holds that as the components shrink and the boards all but disappear, the component density will double every year or so, and the number of system functions in an SOP package will increase in the same proportion."
Yeah (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem is the interface. (Score:4, Insightful)
The real problem is that there isn't room for different interfaces on that box.
The interface for a phone is different than the interface on your iPod. So even though you can cram the guts from both of them in the same physical box, you cannot do so while maintaining the interface of each.
The same with adding a camera to them. The same with adding a PDA. The same with adding a game machine. It's really all about the interface (once you've solve the reliability issues). And right now, there isn't any way to get different physical interfaces on the device.
Re:The real problem is the interface. (Score:1)
The near-term interface may be a touch screen. (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, if that size was used as a grip behind the body of the unit (with various hardware inside it, of course), then the face of the unit could be a fairly decent-sized touch-screen.
It can even be a decently low-power screen, once companies like this one [eink.com] and this one [archive.org] and this one [qualcomm.com] finish their R&D in things like full-color and size-scaling.
I'd also like to mention that There
Re:The real problem is the interface. (Score:1)
So you have a phone, pda, game machine,camera, gps, and ipod all in one device...If you could come up with either sliding interface components or snap on plates(sorta like the the stylish color plates for cell phones), only one would have a qwerty plate, game controller plate, tv remote plate, mp3 plate, PDA plate etc..
or just go with a touch screen which could mimic multiple interface options..granted it's not the same as having a ni
Re:The real problem is the interface. (Score:1)
Re:Yeah (Score:1)
Of course it has to do with quality. Of course, in an ideal world where the quality of all features is held constant, there is no reason to prefer a dingus that provides you with X features over a dingus that provides you with X+N features.
But in most people's practical experience, the quality of the features is NOT held constant.
This issue isn't new, either. Neither is it isolated to camera-walkie-talkie-email-phones, either.
Back when I was more of an audiophile, and kept myself current with high-end
Re:Yeah (Score:1)
Re:Yeah (Score:1)
Re:Yeah (Score:3, Interesting)
My thing is if they got camera/multimedia phones right like:
-High quality camera with at leat 2MP or 1600x1200
-removable flash card that stores the pictures
-external
They already have all this in asia (Score:1)
-High quality camera with at leat 2MP or 1600x1200
-removable flash card that stores the pictures
-external screen that acts like a viewfinder, great for taking pictures of yourself with someone
-simple usb connectivity
-an mp3 player that also works off the flash card that would work on a bluetooth stereo headset that auto pauses the music on a call. I could ride my bike with my phone in my bag listening to some tunes and take a call easily without f
Re:They already have all this in asia (Score:2)
Re:Yeah (Score:3, Insightful)
but wouldn't you rather have a really really tiny phone which you can add those thi
Re:Yeah (Score:2)
Not really. It's hard enough to carry around all the chotchkies that go with my current gadgets. Each one needs a slew of accessories if I want it to be fully functional, like memory card readers, USB charging cables or AC adapters, etc. You'd be replacing the problem of carrying several gadgets with the problem of carrying a small purse-sized case of attachm
Re:Yeah (Score:2, Interesting)
The semiconductor industry is also continuously updating silicon to justify keeping prices the same level or higher. Since silicon cost goes down once its been created, that's the only way to increase ASP on silicon -- add more features in the same space.
Thus we s
Re:Yeah (Score:2)
Moore's law = all technology ever? (Score:4, Funny)
AMAZING
Re:Moore's law = all technology ever? (Score:1)
"The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of roughly a factor of two per year. Certainly over the short term this rate can be expected to continue, if not to increase."
Emphasis mine.
KFG
Nothing says "megafunction gadget"... (Score:3, Funny)
Nothing says "megafunction gadget" like a monochrome Palm, a nut, and an old motherboard.
Is this the next installment in the MacGyver Challenge?
Integate CPU + DRAM + Flash (Score:5, Interesting)
Many embedded processors have some typical complement of flash memory and SDRAM which is about the same for every app, and which takes up half of more of the CPU's pin count. The chips can't be combined on one die, because the yields and economies of scale would go down, and they're different processes.
But combine the dies in a small package and you get the best of both world. Less packaging material and lower pin count == lower cost, easier to design in, and more reliable (at some expense in flexibility). It's not a new idea but it's great to see it catching on.
Re:Integate CPU + DRAM + Flash (Score:1)
http://www.atmel.com/products/AVR/ [atmel.com]
256-Kbyte self-programming Flash Program Memory, 8-Kbyte SRAM, 4-KByte EEPROM, 16 Channel 10-bit A/D-converter. JTAG interface for on-chip-debug. Up to 16 MIPS throughput at 16 MHz. 1.8 - 5.5 Volt Operation.
64KB/100-pin version: ATmega640
128KB/64-pin version: ATmega1281
128KB/100-pin version: ATmega1280
256KB/64-pin version: ATmega2561
64-Kbyte self-programming Flash Program Memory, 4-Kbyte SRAM, 2-KByte EEPROM, 8 Channel 10-bit A/D-converter. JTAG interface for on-
Re:Integate CPU + DRAM + Flash (Score:4, Interesting)
CPU, DRAM and Flash are all intensively transistor based devices.
However custom applications for radio transmitter chips (as in TFA) is a awesome example. Combine all RF circuitry into a single chip will make my job multitudes easier. I designed implants for animal testing and the cap's and resistors were 90% of the implant(for this co. www.telemetryresearch.com)
Re:Integate CPU + DRAM + Flash (Score:3, Informative)
Granted, those are 8-bit processors with no more than 64k or so of Flash, and no more than a few Kb of SRAM, but they're surprisingly powerful and useful. You can get 'em in clock rates of 50 MHz or more and all kinds of nifty on-chip peripherals are available... my favorites are the on-chip ADC and USB controllers! Plus the whol
Integration at all levels (Score:1)
I work in audio, and we've seen the audio system
Reliability? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Reliability? (Score:4, Insightful)
Any generalized statements about crashing are just that, gross generalizations. There is no reason to make components interdependent, just because they are integrated. The opposite is true, related components make sense to integrate, but then it's just a matter of what else you might be able to get into that package. It may even have its own connection to the power supply through separate pins, if you're that paranoid.
Re:Reliability? (Score:1)
SOP package? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:SOP package? (Score:1)
-Peter
Re:SOP package? (Score:2)
Re:SOP package? (Score:1)
Don't forget your PIN number.
KFG
Re:SOP package? (Score:2)
should be SOC -- system on a chip (Score:1)
Gigafunction (Score:3, Funny)
Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:2)
Slashbacking to a thread last week... all I really want is a cell phone that works in weak signal areas. I do not want to take pictures, I do not want to listen to MP3s. I do not want to watch videos.
I just want the blasted cell phone to work in weak signal areas.
How can a multifunction device help me? (
Re:Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:1)
Yes, the picture quality on that 5" TV is really nice, but I had my heart set on something much smaller.
KFG
Re:Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:1)
Re:Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:1)
Re:Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:2)
The unspoken assumption here is that there is some sort of mutual exclusion between the two. Do you really think there is a designer somewhere at Nokia or Motorola saying, "Hmm, we could add the 'pick up marginal signals twice as well' module, or we could add a camera. Screw the phone stuff, let's add a camera." Your phone doesn't work well in
Re:Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:2)
That's like saying car stereo's aren't as good as a home cinema, so are they really worth having at all? I have so many friends who take pictures and share them in a couple of key presses, who wouldn't go out to buy a high quality just-a-camera because for them, it's just a toy, it's fun, not something they feel the need to actively pursue. And likewis
Re:Is the underlying premise just wrong? (Score:2)
Re:Change that to (Score:1)
KFG
Re:Change that to (Score:1)
What I don't understand is how the original post got modded offtopic. When it comes to electronic devices, the law has a very detrimental effect on progress. That should be important to everybody involved. Apparently some people have trouble seeing that point. Megafunction(our new buzz-word for the day) devices are absolutely worthless if the government can prohibit ownership to certain class
Re:Change that to (Score:1)
Well then you should know that to the outside world you seem to be implying that following Bucky's ideas will result in the end of mankind. Find some way to seperate the ideas in your sig.
What I don't understand is how the original post got modded offtopic.
The moderators switching from crack to LSD is what originally attracted me to your post. I don't get it either.
KFG
Re:Change that to (Score:1)
I think I derive more humor by letting people figure things out for themslves. Kinda like the girls flashing their titties at a protest march(can you tell I saw Boston Legal last night?). It has nothing to do with the issue, but it might draw more attention, in this case to the book. I just thought a semi-witty comment would be better than me showing my...uh...well, never mind.
Integration stinks (Score:4, Insightful)
IC Integration is great! (Score:1)
Nah...
The devices this applies to are of the sort that if something busts, you replace the whole damn thing anyway. Integration on ICs is a whole 'nother can of worms than a TV with a DVD player in. The chips DON'T break. The mechanical connections break (traces, solder joints). Reliability actually can significantly improve....
Think of it more as the nodules you describe. The audio section craps out -- you replace the audio section chip. The baseband/uController craps out, you rep
It's all good... (Score:2)
Law of Accelerating Returns (Score:3, Interesting)
We're going to see ever more rapid acceleration of technology at an increasing rate that will one day leave Moore's Law in the dust, and the impact on society promises to be phenomenal. Just the notion of ever-more-sophisticated portable gadgetry is already altering society in very interesting ways (and yes, some of those alterations are annoying or inconvenient--oblivious cell phones users and so forth). But with the way these gadgets are going, we're going to rapidly outstrip the imaginations of Star Trek writers in terms of the capability and utility of such ubiquitous and powerful devices. I look forward to having the electronic equivalent of a Swiss Army knife (and yes, I'm sure there's going to have to be some clever work done on improving the user interface on such units--but there are inventive types out there working on that sort of thing). It all promises to be very interesting.
Re:Law of Accelerating Returns (Score:1)
We did that with the LED clock.
. .
All they have to do is change the human form factor.
KFG
jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:5, Funny)
I for one would enjoy a fun-size pc, cellphones the size of a hearing aid, a pda wristwatch and tiny headmounted displays I fit in the corner of my glasses. The rest of you can continue to enjoy your breadbox-sized pcs and your feelings of self-righteousness.
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:1)
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:1)
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:1)
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:1)
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
Why yes, you can end up with bad products sometimes. In fact, you can do so even with old technology. The fact that you felt compelled to post this stupendously obvious fact a thread about exciting new technology is kind of why I called everyone luddites.
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
And I, for one, welcome our fun-size pc, tiny hearing aid, pda wristwatch and tiny headmounted display-enjoying overlords.
But notice that you broke them up. I would like a fun-size PC. I would like a cellphone the size of a hearing aid. I would like a PDA wristwatch. And I would like a tint headmounted display I fit in the corner of my glasses.
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:4, Insightful)
We got:
1. "stuff is too complex already, what we need is better UI design". This is a non sequiteur - better UI design and clarity of function is an orthogonal issue to what this article talks about. It's as if the technology was going to be used to do nothing but assemble every last portable gadget into one poorly-designed mega-unit.
2. "this is all about integrating such and so a microcontroller, SOC and flash memory": it's too hard to read the article and realize that we're talking about something a little more general, so let's just drop a couple vaguely-informed sounding buzzwords in there to sound superior. Read the damn articles, guys: Capacitors. Waveguides. Antennas. Crystals. Not just some gates.
3. Some home-spun wisdom about how putting more functions in things makes them more unreliable. Yes, that's right, even since the 4004 computer chips have just been crashing more and more often. That's because there's no such discipline as computer engineering or electrical engineering. No-one has ever thought about these issues before today, on Slashdot. Perhaps one day a discipline might spring up around how to assemble digital and analog logic in a way that somehow encapsulates the properties of individual components.
4. A couple random breathless quotes about Vinge and Kurzweill; with the usual level of irrelevance. Hey, at least these guys aren't sneering.
I was faintly hoping for someone who knows more about this sort of stuff to analyze the very PR-ish seeming nature of the article - what's hype, what's reality. Instead, it's the usual undergraduate-level bluffing and gibberish.
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
The input/output of high-tech gadgets is, by far, the limiting factor with current technology.
Shrink a PC/PDA all you want, but I still need to carry around a 5"x3" keyboard and perhaps an 8" screen ( AT MINIMUM ) to be able to DO ANYTHING useful with it. Hence the short-lived hype of PDAs.
A "glasses" display will only make you sick, possibly giving you eyesight problems, serious headaches, etc. And since
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
Ever here of a Blackberry? The dimension of the entire device is about 4"x3" and yet somehow people manage to get a lot done with them. And my vx9800 phone seems to be extremely useful with a full qwerty keyboard under 4" x 1.5" and a 2" x 1.5" screen, it's mostly limited currently by a lack of open applications and good mobile websites. I can onl
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:1)
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
No, people certainly don't do "a lot" with blackberries. Sending a few e-mails around is fine, but hardly doing a lot. You really need a much larger keyboard to do things with reasonable speed.
Typing with two fingers won't get you very far, and having to squint to try and read the scree
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
Let's see, browse the web, take photos and 20fps videos, email, write documents, play games, calculator, code write code on it if there were an IDE app for it (migh tbe? not sure). Sounds like pretty much what everyone uses a desktop PC for already as far as basic tasks go. You want more powerful apps look at the OQO [oqo.com] and whta it has to offer, AFAIK, that would be everything a PC offers.
Typing with two fingers won't get you very far, and having to squ
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
You clearly don't have any experience with HMDs. All of the decent ones have optics that present an image to your eyes that appears to be at least several feet away. I have personally used a tin
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
Do I have an alternative? No, but then I didn't have an alternative to cumbersome wired telephones or BBSes or carburetors either, and somehow someone managed to come up with a few.
Re:jesus christ, what a bunch of goddamn luddites (Score:2)
I don't entirely disagree with you. However, since I can type fairly accurately at well over 100 WPM (Dvorak layout on a TypeMatrix keyboard BTW), it would take a hell of an input device to surpass the standard old keyboard.
Well, that is an entirely different thing. That's the progress of a new field of technology, as opposed to fundamentially differe
Just wait (Score:2)
Luddites, indeed.
Moore's Law only applies to transistors on an IC (Score:2, Interesting)
This is new? (Score:2, Informative)
The day is coming... (Score:5, Funny)
"Hon? Yeah, me here. Hospital waiting room actually. I think I really screwed up the instructions with that new cell phone. Well, Janie tried to call her friend Jennifer, and the toaster exploded in Sean's face. I tried to call 911 and had to sit through Eyes Wide Shut 2, then listen to Basil Poledouris ring tones for ten minutes and answer three web surveys. The doctors think they can reattach most of Sean's scalp and one of his eyes. Janie is fine though. She grabbed the phone, screamed 'nervouse breakdown voice command' into it and it tranquilized her. Do you know if it can make Shirley Temples? Hello? Oh, I'm sorry... I thought you were my husband... International Space Station you say? Could you connect me with 555-"
I can't wait! (Score:1)
Re:I can't wait! (Score:2, Funny)
Well, it looks like we're finally on track (Score:4, Interesting)
Size does not matter ... (Score:2)
What about battery life (Score:1)
Re:What about battery life (Score:1)
I agree. You'd think that given the choking-hazard size of the iPod Nano they could remedy this, but nooo...
Powerful (Score:3, Funny)
They forgot to mention that it also doubles as a soldering iron.
-- --
Terrorists can destroy our trains and buildings, but they can't destroy our rights and our freedom. Only we and our lawmakers can destroy that.
So in real terms, looking a few years out... (Score:2)
So, I could buy one of these SOP generic PC's, run the latest Linux kernel, and make it do just about anything a current technology PC could do. And, if I read correctly, this SOP would be maybe 4 square inches. It begs the questions of pow
Expansion cards... (Score:2)
(you know, those little square ones). Your PC would have slots
and you'd just push the card in, et voila, sound, graphics,
whatever else. The PC could be the size of a laptop with all
the expandability.
Software Defined Radio + DSP will be key (Score:2)
tiny robots (Score:1)
Can't see how this will keep up with moores law... (Score:1)
Re:lol (Score:1, Interesting)
It would also have more credibility if they didn't change it from 1 year to 18 months.
Moore's law is not something written in stone. I wish people would quit using it.