Should We Be Afraid of TPM Chips? 112
AcidArrow asks: "I was looking to buy a new laptop and since I wanted to be on the bleeding edge, I thought one with the new core duo chips would be just what I need. Among the features on the laptops I was looking was 'Trusted Platform Module chip for the safety of your data'. Now, I don't know of any real uses for a TPM chip yet, but is this something that should worry me, or keep me from buying a laptop with said 'feature'? I don't intend to use it and I would like to disable it, if possible, but I don't want to make it easier for anyone to track down what I'm doing on my laptop."
People are so afraid.... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:People are so afraid.... (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they tried but the TPM chips in their computer blocked them.
I'm glad I don't hav#&DFGsj3lwkj.s9)
NO CARRIER
Stallman's not afraid to speak out (Score:2)
Re:Stallman's not afraid to speak out (Score:2)
Uses (Score:3, Insightful)
I would imagine if you want to use future version of windows (and/or media player), this chip will be necessary. I can only speculate that it aids in the decryption of copywrited content
Re:Uses (Score:2, Insightful)
It is Big Brother Inside. Invisible, omnipresent, and with an enhanced ability to hide backdoors that will even grab your encrypted communications when they go in the clear inside your PCs.
But, hey, you are probably a law-abiding person and should have nothing to hide.
Re:Uses (Score:4, Informative)
Notably, a TPM has a great many advantages (provided you trust the vendor anyway)--but only when implemented on a trustable OS and application. For instance, you can use it to trusted bootstrap (using a previously signed Linux kernel (basically saying you or someone you trust created the kernel)) to avoid boot-time rootkits, and then once you've loaded a trusted kernel, it will help the kernel to check for trusted (signed) modules. It can also check that the ps you're running isn't trojaned (i.e. installed by someone who didn't have the key).
In short, go TPM, but boot Linux (or BSD, or whatever you can trust). The critical difference between Big Brother and Best Friend is whether you or someone else is doing (or able to do) the signing.
Re:Uses (Score:3, Informative)
The chip does nothing of this. The chip itself only encrypts and decrypts. The rest of the nightmare scenario requires a Treacherous Computing operating system and/or application software to do this.
Oh bullshit. The Werner Von Braun defence. "I only make the rockets go up. Others decide where they land." As things stand at the moment, Trusted Computing hardware has only one use: to remove the control of the computer from its owner. The EFF [eff.org] has a proposal to mitigate the risks and keep the benefits... an
Re:Uses (Score:2)
Uhhm, no. It's actually the " Hey! There's a baby in that bathwater! " "defence".
That may well be its intended use. That does not however, mean that there are not other uses for it. Indeed, I have outlined some. Additionally, the simple fact that you have a TPM doesn't immedia
Re:Uses (Score:1, Interesting)
Had you read the link you would have had answers to your questions, but you obviously didn't... instead you prefer to write in bold making statements that have already been answered and trying to play specious logic games.
When the TCG, and technology companies behind it (which includes Intel, IBM, Microsoft, AMD and many many others) come out and openly discuss this hardware and its potential for improving security, but also the very real (and currently being implemented by Microsoft) threat of massive pr
Re:Uses (Score:3, Insightful)
That's basically what I said, save for the gross misrepresentation, namely "just spouting meaningless 'It's not evil. It's just hardware' platitudes"
Your (apparently) blind hatred for all things TPM seems to have skipped the "currently being
Re:Uses (Score:3, Insightful)
What if the device is something like a digital video recorder or a wireless router, which in theory runs under Linux or other GPLed software, and you
Re:Uses (Score:2)
Re:Uses (Score:2)
Re:Uses (Score:2)
I can already see the day when PCs will have mod chips you can get for $25 from ebay. As in other systems, it may even be illegal to use said mod chip.
I have no use for a chip in my computer that can say 'no' to me when I (gasp) WANT to test a virus. (It's happened before on a secondary system I had when I was trying to figu
Re:Uses (Score:2)
As you will see, I have addressed them. Let's go:
Then you sign it with your key. If you don't have the key, as I said, don't buy the TPM/laptop.
Re:Uses (Score:2)
Do you seriously believe that you are going to get the keys?
See for yourself (Score:2)
The real question is, why dont you?
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6633 [linuxjournal.com]
To be cynical about it, Intel makes great heaping piles of money from Linux servers. Why would they want to put an end to that again? I missed that part where Intel would suddenly go bokers and dispose of huge piles of cash just to become a Tool of the Man (tm).
Dumb as a stump (Score:2)
Didn't he just say in the very post you responded to how there was an article in Linux Journal about using your own keys [linuxjournal.com]?
Re:See for yourself (Score:2)
From that article:
The endorsement key pair is the interesting one. No, you don't get the private component
Of course!!!! (Score:2)
Yes, exactly - the point is that you CAN sign it yourself, in other words making the chip do whatever you like. It only verifies that chip was used to sign it.
TPM is a tool like any other, capible of misuse to be sure but with the power in the hands of the user also capable of great good. It is only when TPM is used to lock a user out of doing something with the ha
Re:Of course!!!! (Score:2)
I don't think we have the same view here. Whether you run Linux, Windows, or OS XI doesn't make a difference. You will not be able to fake attestations (that other people believe) unless you can extract the private endorsement key.
Bear in mind there are two things that you could dislike about TPM. The first is attestation which affects whether programs on other machines will trust you (based on the data in the attestation). The second is sealed storage, which could store data on your system that you
Of course, again? (Score:2)
Yes, and? That is kind of the point of the thing. That is good. That is what it does.
Bear in mind there are two things that you could dislike about TPM. The first is attestation which affects whether programs on other machines will trust you (based on the data in the attestatio
Re:Of course, again? (Score:2)
There's nothing to stop one from having an OS that allows you to add drivers. But whether anyone else chooses to trust attestations made by programs running on that OS is another matter entirely. I certainly wouldn't trust your OS with your drivers to obey a policy on data that I give to you, unless you can give me some proof that your OS and your drivers will not violate the policy that I ask you to enforce before handing you the data.
Great (Score:2)
Sure it can be used in a DRM scenario but they can also encase kittens in giant blocks of lucite to keep you from touching them. Wouldn't buy that either.
Re:Uses (Score:2)
It's just a shame Linus doesn't understand this.
Re:Uses (Score:2)
It's just a shame Linus doesn't understand this.
Or perhaps he just disagrees with this approach.
Re:Uses (Score:2)
That's why we need GPL v3 -- because it's the only hope I see of preventing EVERY computer from becoming like the TiVo, locked down to only use "vendor" approved software!
Re:Uses (Score:1, Interesting)
Uhhm, no. It's actually the " Hey! There's a baby in that bathwater! " "defence".
You don't seem to understand, or (at least) you haven't read the link. The alternative is that you are just being dishonest.
A TPM could been a boon for security... but, as it is currently implemented, it is just a means for big brother levels of control and not security FOR the user as it should be. The link you so carefully ignore lays out a means to get the benefits of a TPM, without the huge damage it causes.
This woul
Re:Uses (Score:1, Troll)
Punching people in the face isn't bad? You sure? (Score:2)
Obviously, you need to be introduced to this [alphabetofmanliness.com].
Redundant? WTF? (Score:2)
Customize? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Customize? (Score:2)
If you go to Dell and buy a laptop, you're for the most part, able to customize nearly everything to suit your needs.
Excellent! I'm off to order an Inspiron with the highly requested "Meat Thermometer" option.
I think that this will eventually end up being a lot like the Pentium III serial number fiasco. There will be some way to shut it off... People do eventually get frustrated and tired of technology that gets in their way. If this stuff is going to keep people from watching their movies at full resoluti
Re:Customize? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Customize? (Score:1)
Re:Customize? (Score:2)
Re:Customize? (Score:2)
Re:Customize? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Customize? (Score:2)
The second one was a buddy who was having tro
Re:Customize? (Score:1)
Oh, the TPM is SOLDERED TO THE MOTHERBOARD!
So, no. Why in the world would a low-cost manufacuter like Dell have a complete
Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:5, Insightful)
But if there were uses for TPM which directly translated into a user feature - like being able to save
But frankly, TPM isn't there for you. Its there for software vendors and 'media suppliers' to use in branding content to your machine. Whether thats good or not, is entirely up to whether or not the end user wants less control over where the data can travel
I'd be interested to hear cases where TPM-stamps can be used to actually protect user-author'ed data, though. Would be handy for studio-type people
But that sort of protection is just as easily provided by tools like GPG and such, and still would depend on the software vendor exploiting that feature, so
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can safely say that I do not want this. I use my jumpdrive to keep a backup of three directories; a script automagically copies fresh versions of a particular tree into a branch on my jumpdrive. This is done for portability and backup purposes. If, for example, my
Long story short: TPM serialization == bad for backups.
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:1)
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:2)
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:1)
Which has thereby led me to wonder, unless I have missed your point entirely, why the unsuitability for backups particularly counts against the scheme. Simply uncheck the option and you have no difference in functionality from before. Meanwhile,
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:2)
So basically, you have to decide whether it's more important for you to have your data or for others not to have it.
Laptop thefts have been in news in Silicon Valley lately, because people using them to transport data valuable to identity thieves. That caused the Mercury News to go to the local copies for the details of that crime wave. Laptop thieves mostly troll the main drag [wikipedia.org], looking for rental cars parked near fancy restaurants and hotels. So th
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:1, Offtopic)
"like being able to save .DOC files to your USB stick"
Could we at least on slashdot use Free file formats in examples instead of promoting the MS Word "standard"? Please.
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:1)
Re:Be afraid only if you can't use it .. (Score:2)
Nothing to fear (Score:5, Informative)
Secondly there are some good uses for it: I use it to store web site passwords, keys and certificates. On my laptop (Thinkpad T43) it is connected to the fingerprint scanner so I can enforce two-factor auth. (finger swipe AND passphrase). I also store the keys for encrypted disk volumes in the TPM (also part of the software IBM/Lenovo offers for the TPM).
No software can access the TPM without my consent, because it requires finger and password.
Re:Nothing to fear (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Nothing to fear (Score:2)
I suspect that IBM's engineering on this front i
Re:Nothing to fear (Score:1)
Re:Nothing to fear (Score:3, Informative)
Heh. I know the guys who do the IBM 4758 and PCIXCC cards [ibm.com] and they aren't involved with the fingerprint scanner on the notebooks.
IBM is a big company.
Although not IBM specific, here's a few links about the falibility of fingerprint scanners, the last one is tragically funny.
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0205.html#5 [schneier.com]
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Ris [ncl.ac.uk]
Re:Nothing to fear (Score:1)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/11/identix_f
Re:Nothing to fear (Score:2)
However, as far as i know, none of the links that you provided states an attack vector that is possible with the IBM fingerprint sensor.
The t43 fingerprint sensor requires the user to slide their finger over the sensor. An intelligent move by IBM as this elimitates the possibilty of retrieving the figerprint of the last user. Most of the commercial fingerprint scanners don't require the user to move the finger, and all of the sensor
Ms. Turner, meet Mr. Hurt (Score:2)
Two questions (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Is this even the case with the new Intel macs?
2. If you disable the chip from bios, can the OS re-enable it without your consent?
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
I was thinking along the exact lines of running a hacked version, yes. However, if the OS can override the BIOS settings without user input (say, perhaps there's something the people writing the hacked version missed) and turn the disabled TPM back on, there wouldn't be much benefit from this.
TPM has some great potential use
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
TPM has some great potential uses I disagree entirely.
Then I guess you also dont see any good uses for passwords, permission levels, memory management and various such security measures operative in most OS's these days. TPM would be a fantastic hardware assistance in securing your environment further, and would be a boon in this manner in the corporate environment (imagine a server only allowed to run one single service under one userid and nothing else, you wouldnt ever have to worry about overflow
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
If it were under better circumstances, I might agree with you that it's OK for them to procede, and that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages; but that is not the case.
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
No. TPM doesn't provide any advantages in security over traditional (and now-mature) encryption and operating system permissions technologies. All TPM does is create the opportunity to take all of your security needs and place them behind a single point of failure.
TPM exists to take control of what happens on your computer out of your hands and put it into the hands of hardware and software vendors. Anything else that is claime
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Your assertion that TPM exists solely to remove control from us is also marketing, but from a different quarter. Dont think its any different, its one vie
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
We are not talking about hardware MMUs.
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Your assertion that TPM exists solely to remove control from us is also marketing, but from a different quarter. Dont think its any different, its one view or opinion, not reality.
No, it's a considered judgement based on the history of the technology. TPM doesn't do anything that you can't already do in software with one exception: remove control from the user. MMUs unload a compute intensive task from the CPU - TPM isn't that intensive.
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
There is only one thing that a TPM can do that software cryptography cannot: secure the system against you by hiding the master key in the silicon itself.
Just about every new laptop (Score:5, Informative)
...seems to have a TPM chip. Thinkpads, MacBook Pros, some Gateway machines, just about every major new laptop manufacturer that I know of has already installed TPM chips in their laptops.
The important thing to remember, though, is that a TPM chip means nothing if you don't use an OS or software that utilizes the chip for nefarious purposes. If you stick to Windows XP, current versions of OS X (they only use the TPM chip to see if it is a genuine Macintosh), or a free OS (like Linux or BSD), then they won't utilize the TPM chip to restrict your moves. However, you might want to check out any upgrades to the proprietary OSes or proprietary software before you upgrade. You might also want to avoid DRM'd media as well and find alternatives before it is too late.
Now, if you really don't want a TPM chip in your machine, just buy the last model of the machine that you want that doesn't have a TPM chip. Apple, for example, still sells their G4 line of PowerBooks and iBooks. You'll have to weigh the advantages/disadvantages; do you want to sacrifice performance over a trusted computing chip that has little control depending on your software choices?
Re:Just about every new laptop (Score:2)
Just put your laptop in the microwave, along with your RFID tags.
Re:Just about every new laptop (Score:2)
Whether that actually *means* anything is another matter entirely, of course, and as long as you stick to free software, you shouldn't have to worry about anything really (one should hope). But it's not true that Linux doesn't support these things.
Re:Just about every new laptop (Score:2)
No Thanks. (Score:2)
Afraid? Not really. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Afraid? Not really. (Score:2)
Re:Afraid? Not really. (Score:2)
Re:Afraid? Not really. (Score:1)
Re:They're just silicon (Score:1)
educate yourself? (Score:2, Informative)
nothing magic in them, just some well known crypto cast into hardware.
If you want to know what they do or can do,
grab the specs from the TCG homepage and read em,
no one to stop you.
If you want to try them yourself, grab the TPM kernel emulator module,
or use a real chip, Linux ships drivers with every new kernel.
Use the freely available software lib from IBM (called Trousers),
hell, lately even first Java bindings appeared for those who
don't want to get m
be afraid...be very afraid (Score:3, Funny)
I'd stay away from it... (Score:1)
Now, I do have an AMD64 system that has on
Re:I'd stay away from it... (Score:3, Funny)
Nope, it's not worth it. Stay with Linux, dump the girl.
TPM (Score:1)
TCPA claims rebuttal, from IBM research (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/tcpa_rebutt
In short it says, chip does nothing more than encrypt/decrypt data. It can't execute any code and is not made to be resistant to owner attack (e.g. timing cryptanalysis will work on it!). The only key(s) it controls are generated on-chip and never leave the chip [unencrypted]; there's no external "trusted authority" which manages the keys - so remote revokation is out of the question.
Ergo, you have nothing to be afraid of if you're running current version of WindeXP or any version of *nix
Re:TCPA claims rebuttal, from IBM research (Score:2)
Wait, so which is it? Can you obtain the secret key or can't you?
If you can't get the secret key (or rather, aren't given it along with the computer), then yes, it is a bad thing because you should always have the right to decrypt your own data!
FYI: Intel LaGrande, ARM TrustZone (Score:1)
Gigabit ethernet controller with built-in TPM (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=7005 09/ [broadcom.com]):
"Broadcom® Controllers Integrate TPM 1.2, Enabling OEMs to Offer Hardware-Based Security as a Standard Feature on All PCs
Platforms With TPM 1.2 Hardware Will Be Ready for Enhanced Security Functionalit