Is BitTorrent Search Harmful? 136
protee writes "p2pnet published a report arguing that the robustness of BitTorrent to free-riding might have been more related to the lack of meta-data search rather than to its tit-for-tat-like strategy. The question now is: how the release of such search engines is going to impact the BitTorrent network?"
It'll obviously help out such networks. (Score:5, Interesting)
Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:3, Insightful)
Difference: The early Web flourished in .edu circles, where there are likely to be a lot of people dedicated to providing educational works of authorship on fat pipes. BitTorrent, on the other hand, is often blocked by .edu ISPs, and residential customers of commercial ISPs don't have nearly the fat pipes to supply everyone who wants to download a given file.
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:2)
Another solution is that while you dl twice as fast as you ul, leave the torrent open for a few days.
Nearly every BT I have uploaded about 1.5-2.5 by the time it reaches 100%. It is a problem that in part solves itself.
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:1)
Nearly every BT I have uploaded about 1.5-2.5 by the time it reaches 100%. It is a problem that in part solves itself.
What happens if you get in on the tail end of a torrent, and demand for the file from other users falls off so that your share ratio on a given file never gets up to 1.0 even if you seed for a month?
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:1)
Registered trackers (Score:1)
I'm not sure I see your point. If there's no longer any demand for the file, then there's no bandwidth problem to speak of.
Trackers that require users to register generally require each user to maintain a high share ratio in order to not be banned. If one gets in on the tail end of too many torrents, where demand falls off, the precipitous drop in demand can bring a user's share ratio reputation down. Point is that though people who just jump off when the download completes are a problem, strict enforce
Re:Registered trackers (Score:1)
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:1)
indeed. they can do it over time
> if you are stuck with ADSL people who can download at 100kb/s or more, but only upload at 15kb/s at best you naturally run into problems, even with bittorrent.
a problem fixed by the very behaviour of each serious user who downloads then lets the file on his disk (seeding it) 'till it reaches at last a few days there or a good (> 1) share ratio
Seriousness (Score:2, Informative)
a problem fixed by the very behaviour of each serious user who downloads then lets the file on his disk (seeding it) 'till it reaches at last a few days there or a good (> 1) share ratio.
True, but as a file transfer system becomes easier for novices to use, it is likely to draw users who aren't "serious", who cancel the upload as soon as the download completes. And if you try to enforce share ratios on a registered tracker, remember that the mean share ratio across all users is exactly 1.0; therefor
Re:Seriousness (Score:1)
Receiving 200MB of a 200MB file doesn't mean you have everything. Checksum errors are fairly common on BitTorrent, and redownloading the entire piece (size depends on the
It also means that if everyone has exactly 1.0, someone will likely be missing a piece.
Re:Seriousness (Score:1)
True, but as a file transfer system becomes easier for novices to use, it is likely to draw users who aren't "serious", who cancel the upload as soon as the download completes. And if you try to enforce share ratios on a registered tracker, remember that the mean share ratio across all users is exactly 1.0; therefore not everybody can have a cumulative ratio >= 1.0. What happens when demand falls off for a file, and though you leave the upload going, nobody downloads more than a couple megabytes for day
Re:Difference is the universities' attitude (Score:1)
Good, because college students nowadays listen to crappy music.
What should choice of music have to do with ability to pull down GNU/Linux distributions?
Yeah! (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, c'mon... *eyeroll*
Re:Yeah! (Score:3, Funny)
I see you have encountered what us elite
Re:Yeah! (Score:3, Funny)
By smashing it to bits against the stage floor?
Re:Yeah! (Score:1)
Re:Yeah! (Score:1)
The great-grandparent poster meant that we type with the keyboard updside- down. And very rapidly.
Re:Yeah! (Score:2)
I think you mean Pete Townshend.
-JDF [Who? Exactly.]
Re:Yeah! (Score:2)
"He would smash his guitar to pieces because he felt he'd played so badly and find the crowd loving it all the more." [hotshotdigital.com] No, I mean Jimi Hendrix, although I know Pete's been doing it [gibson.com], too. I have no idea who was first, though.
Re:Yeah! (Score:1)
By typing with penis?
Re:Yeah! (Score:2)
~S
People will start sharing... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:People will start sharing... (Score:2)
Re:People will start sharing... (Score:2)
Not necessarily. I don't share (as much as I should) because my upstream is throttled to 128kbit/s and upload traffic is included in my 10Gb monthly allowance.
Re:People will start sharing... (Score:1)
Re:People will start sharing... (Score:2)
well thats what you get for being with a crap provider like Bigpong
Thanks for your insightful remark, but as I've mentioned here before [slashdot.org], there are no real broadband alternatives where I live.
Re:People will start sharing... (Score:1)
Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:2)
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:4, Insightful)
More leachers != merrier
More peers = merrier
I think the main problem with some bt clients is that they flood your upload bandwidth... thus killing your DL speed.
A client that intelligently detects/limits/manages ULs is probably the best thing that can happen to bittorrent
As long as uploading is a transparent process that doesn't interfere with n00bs general internet usage, they won't bother to become leechers.
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:1)
I absolutely agree with your comment re:uploading. I used to leech a lot only because uploading would kill my download speeds.
However, now I upload all the time because I can limit my ul speeds so that my dl speeds aren't killed. I seed for days sometimes on bittorrent because its transparent.
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:2)
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:1, Informative)
By the 2nd (or was it 3rd) release bandwidth limiting became available - but still only at the command-line and only per torrent - no ability to have 3 torrents running with total UL
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:1)
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Isn't the principle of Bittorrent... (Score:2)
Try using Download Meter
http://www.dumeter.com/scrshots.php [dumeter.com]
and you'll probably see your UL/DL rates fluctuating as netlimiter struggles to throttle down your BW.
Network? (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer: not at all. There isn't a BitTorrent network, just an application that has caused many thousands of disjoint, single purpose networks to come into existance.
And that disjointness will help protect them, I feel.
Idiots. (Score:1)
Re:Idiots. (Score:2)
Quality sites that enforce reasonable ratios and hold uploaders accountable do well. Sites that do not have ratios may do ok, but the quality of the swarms are MUCH lower, the download rate is lower, and
It's Possible to Complete (Score:1)
Re:Idiots. (Score:2)
You obviously don't know much about bittorrent. You can have a site with a torrent file uploaded, but all the seeds are no longer seeding, thus, unusable. You can also have a torrent with lots of peers, no seeds, but you can still get all the file because the peers have different parts. Both circumstances are less than optimal, and common, on "public" sites.
More info for the idiots. (Score:1)
Re:More info for the idiots. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:More info for the idiots. (Score:2)
Re:Network? (Score:2)
Re:Network? (Score:1)
Ah, but this search engine has taken those sporadic single purpose networks, and made them available to the masses.
If anything, this search engine will create a BitTorrent network, or pseudo-community if you will.
What difference does it make? (Score:5, Informative)
There is no "BitTorrent Network" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:There is no "BitTorrent Network" (Score:3, Interesting)
With the advent of the DHT networks in use by the Mainline bittorrent client and Azureus you could argue that there are "networks". There have been several examples of how to search these dht networks for active (and inactive..ie..trackerless) torrents.
Re:There is no "BitTorrent Network" (Score:2)
For now at least. Just wait.
Not sure I buy the analysis (Score:5, Informative)
I don't see it. If you're going to leech, that's the way to do it, but cooperating overall results in even better upload rates; you're not fighting for the few slots afforded newcomers, you will be given as many packets as you can eat as fast as you can eat them so long as you reciprocate. And I'm sure those communities will survive - I suspect that Bram will have thought of how to integrate search with community.
Re:Not sure I buy the analysis (Score:1)
Now he's been trumped, left out of the loop, and sidelined, much as he was once the sole source for BT clients until 15 other clients popped up.
I
Do you think it will sanitize BT? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could be compared to bootlegs being move from inside the music/video/etc. store to the street merchants that have to pick up and move everytime the cop walks near them.
May well be right (Score:4, Insightful)
bittorrent works...edonkey is slow (Score:2)
Bram designed the protocol on the assumption that every client is out for it's own best interest. Once a leecher attaches to a network, sets his/her upload bandwidth to zero and sees no downloading why would they stay part of the torrent?
Re:bittorrent works...edonkey is slow (Score:2)
Re:bittorrent works...edonkey is slow (Score:3, Informative)
Re:bittorrent works...edonkey is slow (Score:2)
I've seen uploading start within minutes of downloading. As soon as you're in the system, it will take advantage of you if it needs to. If it doesn't, then you might get something for nothing (like a new Bitorrent release, with thousands of seeds, it'll sometimes get downloaded without
Re:bittorrent works...edonkey is slow (Score:2)
Re:May well be right (Score:3, Insightful)
To download you have to upload. If there is a lot of upload capacity relative to download you download less (i.e. you could get 5kbps dl vs 1kbps ul when averaged out) resulting in a low share ratio - the thats because there is heads of capacity. On the otherhand if you download a little but there is high demand (or you keep your connection open) you'll end up with a share ratio >1.
This is ingrained to BitTorrent, it is
Re:May well be right (Score:1)
Re:May well be right (Score:1)
Demanding an individual to have a share ratio greater than 1 is an unscalable requirement.
Re:May well be right (Score:2)
Re:May well be right (Score:2)
Blocked already (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Blocked already (Score:1, Informative)
That just shows that the effectiveness of blocking search parameters to limit search results is minimal, unless you take the baby out with the bath water.
Re:Blocked already (Score:3, Informative)
So, do an advanced search for "tiger" in the applications category,
and guess what? The torrent files are still there, and still downloadable.
Re:Blocked already (Score:1)
It is more indicative of the speed of response of Apple's legal team than anything else.
DRK
Re:Blocked already (Score:4, Funny)
Just repeat after me, "These aren't the torrent files you're looking for."
Re:Blocked already (Score:1)
A quick search for torrentspy [torrentspy.com] ("os x" [torrentspy.com]):
Re:Blocked already (Score:1)
Directory->Macintosh->Applications [torrentspy.com] which shows this OSX 10.4 [torrentspy.com]
The funny thing is, "os x tiger" is blocked, but "os x" or "tiger" still works. Not very effective.
Re:Blocked already (Score:2, Insightful)
Is BitTorrent Search Harmful? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Is BitTorrent Search Harmful? (Score:1)
It's Going to Help (Score:2, Interesting)
Conflicting Answer (Score:4, Insightful)
But this will not effect Bittorrent Itself. Bittorrent remains useful for legitimate downloads- of the type that people will be downloading the
Bittorrent may not become more useful because of searching, but it wont become less useful.
Well I'm surprised... (Score:1)
I'm surprised that companies haven't taken advantage of this and similar ideas. They are wasting millions of dollars trying to shut down trackers and p2p sites instead of turning them into a source of profit.
Would it not be a better idea to sign a new set of commercial contracts with various comanies for the rights to the commercial break(s) in an encoded version of the show specifically made to be freely distrubted, probably with a form of DRM or copy protection to deter the ease of making versions withou
Re:Well I'm surprised... (Score:1)
Re:Well I'm surprised... (Score:1)
Re:Well I'm surprised... (Score:1)
Firstly it's too easy. When anyone can make and broadcast programmes through torrent downloads what is the use of the existing broadcast monopolies? Controlling access to the market place is just as important to the broadcasters as it is to the record and film industries.
Secondly what would be the profits from videos? No one would by the DVDs of TV series when they already have the download. OK, some might, but it would be quite a dent in the extra revenue.
I saw something like this with eXeem (Score:2)
Everything should then be great on the paper (besides being a proprietary protocol + client that was adware), but what I saw was immediate signs of Kazaaification with tons of people spread out over lots and lots of versions of the same files. And you got absolutely horrible speed
Re:I saw something like this with eXeem (Score:2)
People were doing this anyway. Before there was a search, people had to go to the trackers themselves to find torrents. Granted, some trackers grew to be very large, but then net effect was having as many versions of a file as
Just wait.... (Score:1)
Re:Just wait.... (Score:2, Informative)
Only if you are looking for... (Score:1)
Everything else is OK.
I found the research very unsatisfying (Score:3, Interesting)
The research is very unsatisfying to me for several reasons. First, its not even necessary to "cheat". On every bittorrent I've ever downloaded, my download has completed *way* before my ratio has reached 1:1, and it is only because I choose not to end the session that I continue seeding (or, more often than not, because I'm asleep, so the choice to continue seeding is made for me).
Second, the example they give of a strategy that beats tit-for-tat is one in which several cooperating strategies are used at the same time, with some taking on a "master" roll and some taking on a "slave" roll. This may make their point on some academic level, but as a realistic example is fails utterly. Who in their right mind would start ten different bittorrent sessions, with some acting as slaves and some acting as masters? The overall download speed would be awful from having multiple sessiosn running over the same wire. Its just stupid. At least come up with a better example of a strategy that can best tit-for-tat.
Third, I don't see evidence that people would use a bittorrent program that was designed to cheat. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't... the article assumes people would. My bet is that not enough people would use such a program that it would make a difference. Its not like this is evolution, where the successful cheaters "pass on their genes" to create more cheaters.
Overall, I think the research is a lot of academic mumbo-jumbo that may sound good on paper, but has very little, if any, connection to reality.
My own simpler thesis would be this: bittorrent works so well because a lot of the downloaders fall asleep and end up seeding longer than they otherwise might.
Isn't this to be expected? (Score:1)
Re:Isn't this to be expected? (Score:1)
If you are going to live by your own code you need to be discreet or prepared to accept or avoid the consequences society is going to lay on you when they find out.
The p2p society will blacklist you. The riaa society will take everything you own or at least a few thousand dollars.
Group selection? (Score:2)
asdf (Score:1)
Why do people think BitTorrent search is new? (Score:2)
Again, an uninformed news fluff.
is x harmful (Score:1)
Re:Funny search (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Funny search (Score:4, Interesting)
So what happens when pirate bay gets busted by the RIAA-imperial navy?
It's not clear whether they are breaking any Swedish laws - that's why they're so smug and play around with all the takedown notices. The only law they _might_ break would be something like "large scale contributing to copyright infringement" but even that's a stretch. There's a reason why they haven't been charged with anything yet, even though the Swedish Anti Piracy Beaureu are all over the piracy sites they know they can bring down in court.
Re:Funny search (Score:2)
Re: Funny search (Score:2)
Re:Funny search (Score:2, Informative)
Sweden is a small country in the north of europe.
RIAA-imperial navy can stay the fsck out of sweden, thank you very much.
Let's pretend... (Score:1)
Re:Serious Question (Score:3, Informative)