Windows Refund Day II 591
pbody writes "Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how
to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop I
just bought when I came across this on LinuxJournal
about windowsrefund.net. They are
organizing "Windows Refund Day II" on January 23, 2003 -- which coincides
with the LinuxWorld Expo in NYC. Knowing how the first refund day turned
out, how many out there are going to the Expo and are thinking about
participating? For that matter, has anybody had any luck at all getting a refund from a vendor lately?"
What about a.. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What about a.. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What about a.. (Score:5, Funny)
It whould have been a wanaBeOs..
And me! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:And me! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And me! And Gateway (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup.. (Score:4, Informative)
no luck (Score:4, Informative)
any laywers feel like taking on MSFT? this
Re:no luck (Score:4, Insightful)
Refund for XP (Score:5, Interesting)
Sell it on E-bay to someone who wants it.
Re:Refund for XP (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Refund for XP (Score:5, Informative)
It seems they mostly search for the words OEM. If people are worried, they'll usually pick up on it and send you and email asking "is this OEM..." etc etc.
My only recommendations would be to make sure it isnt hardware bound, that it will install on a system other than what yours is (example: installs that check your bios to make sure thats being installed on the machine it was sent for), and to offer full money back guarantee (minus shipping of course) in case something DOES go wrong, and the person isnt 100% pleased.
Re:Refund for XP (Score:5, Informative)
1 - not legal. The EULA specifically says it's legally bound to the hardware it was bought with
Not legal for whom, precisely? It's explicitly legal where I live (Germany). There was a court decision not too long ago, saying that Microsoft have no right to restrict the way in which OEMs resell copies of Windows; what they write in the licence is not above the law of the land. I'd go so far as to say this (unrestricted reselling) is probably the case for the rest of the EU.
I just looked in ebay.de and found OEM versions of XP for sale, so it doesn't look like Ebay is killing those auctions.
On a related note: you will see more and more recovery CDs. Although you may be able to sell them as you want, people generally aren't interested in buying them.
-- Steve
avoid the problem altogether (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:avoid the problem altogether (Score:5, Insightful)
So when's the last time you built your own laptop?
Re:avoid the problem altogether (Score:4, Informative)
You can get'em barebones at Newegg [newegg.com] pretty cheap.
Anyone know contract law? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Anyone know contract law? (Score:4, Interesting)
But remember IANAL. This could be totally wrong. Any lawyers?
Re:avoid the problem altogether (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I went with a reseller. (Score:2)
You got lucky. Unfortunately, it is still rather more difficult to find a retailer that builds his own laptops than it is for desktops. Here in Luxembourg, there is one such a retailer [hauser.lu], but unfortunately, their laptops are so much overpriced that even without Windows they are 200 more expensive than the competition with windows... Unfortunately, this situation puts us Linux users into an interesting dilemna: pay more (and do not support Billyboy), or pay less (with the knowledge that some part of the small price went into Billy's pockets).
Changing the licenses and refunds.. (Score:5, Informative)
We all know that MS are trying to move towards a licensing model where you pay every 3years/1 year/1 month/every day to use the software. This is interesting when you think about software as a service.
So the software is FREE, but the service is paid for. Thus the service enables the "free" software to be used and you have paid for a period of n to use that software. This could make getting a refund harder as the service is provided by Microsoft and not the OEM, also as its paid up front from the OEM to Microsoft it blurs how refunds can be obtained. Its like car insurance, you have it, you pay for it up front, the fact that you don't have a car crash doesn't mean that you can say it wasn't used and ask for a refund.
IANAL (Thank god) but a licensing change could make refunds even harder to get hold of.
Its like car insurance (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Changing the licenses and refunds.. (Score:5, Interesting)
But there's a flaw in your logic. In your situation, you still owned and were capable of using the car. Imagine you sold the car and bought a bike. You don't still have to pay car insurance, and insurers are generally required to give you a refund -- prorated for the time that the car was in your possession.
The same should also be required for Microsoft -- even if it meands removing the OS at purchase time to avoid the situation altogether.
Personally, I think it would be much easier to move to a service model -- but the cost can't come at purchase time. It has to come at activation time. If the first thing you do is reformat, there's no service charge at all.
Re:Changing the licenses and refunds.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds great, but why would Microsoft buy into this? They currently has a stranglehold on the PC industry, so they can force the big PC makers to pay for the service up front, and they get their cut no matter what OS you choose to run on your laptop after you buy it.
About the only reason the big PC makers would consider this is that they could charge less by forcing the user to enter a CC# the minute they register their PC, thus making their PC's look cheaper to the end user. I can envision this being a nightmare to support. For example, I buy a Dell PC, bring it home, and instead of paying the $199 up front for 3 years of MS OS rental, I format the drive and put, for example, the Plan 9 operating system on it. Suddenly the modem goes. Does Dell customer service want to troubleshoot every existing OS I can install on their hardware? Do they want to "take my word" that the problem is hardware-related and not a Plan 9 driver problem?
More likely, a casual end user will skip the $199 registration and install their old version of 2000 or WinME/9x on the box - something Microsoft would very much not want to see happen.
Re:Changing the licenses and refunds.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Do NOT tell the Empire about _that_.
I work full-time wrangling FLEXlm license keys & reports for/from CAD software license servers, and let me tell you you do NOT want the Empire to resort to such a licensing model.
#1 problem: You'll _never_ get the keys to the "software" you'll pay for. They'll be kept in Redmond, and you'll have to activate your software over the Internet, every time you use it. The Empire will then know _exactly_ when and how and to some extent where you use your computer. Local key servers run by the end-user will require proof that you _can't_ get the machine on the Internet, and could be very strictly controlled.
#2 problem: You won't crack the (2048 bit) keys, either. Your only chance will be to hack the
You do NOT want the Empire to go to a CAD/CAE-tool style, probably FLEXlm based, licensing model! PTC _may_ work with their customers. The monopolist has demonstrated that _they_ don't have to.
Not a good analogy (Score:3, Funny)
> you pay for it up front, the fact that
> you don't have a car crash doesn't
> mean that you can say it wasn't used
> and ask for a refund.
That's not a good analogy. If you have a Microsoft OS, it will crash.
Reschedule please... (Score:2, Insightful)
Now go spend your time protesting something that is really taxing, the US Government. Sheesh!
Re:Reschedule please... (Score:2)
the poster refered specifically to a laptop.
Re:Reschedule please... (Score:2)
Re:Reschedule please... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Reschedule please... (Score:4, Informative)
Here's a start [accessmicro.com]. Doesn't anyone know how to use Google?
Re:Reschedule please... (Score:4, Funny)
But at least they "boost into Windows to make sure each components are compatible".
Re:Quit your whining... (Score:2, Funny)
Give me a second while I get my "World's Smallest Violin" out...
well... (Score:2, Funny)
Refund? (Score:3, Informative)
"Due to the nature of software piracy, we can not offer refunds or exchanges on open, or OEM software"
Re:Refund? (Score:2, Funny)
Doh! Rehashing another topic
Re:Refund? (Score:3, Informative)
Just don't buy the OS (Score:5, Informative)
For laptops, I would try PCTorque.com. (I have no association with the website, other than being a satisfied repeat customer.)
And, to remain on-topic, from everything I've ever experienced or read about MS and their aggressive licensing policies/ideology, I think that it will take an outcry from corporations before MS even begins to contemplate giving refunds on unused merchandise. You've already had the opportunity to see the registration key, and that's very important to them.
OEMs & XP Home (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:OEMs & XP Home (Score:4, Informative)
please people (Score:5, Insightful)
not everyone likes linux and mac. not everyone can build machines. most people dont like the attitude on this web site, cuz its so intolerant. its time to quit bitching and understand that the world does not need to "be freed from microsoft."
by the way, before you get a chance to reply with all sorts of snide remarks, i built my two machines and i run linux (gentoo) and windows xp. peace.
Re:please people (Score:4, Interesting)
No, they are not. Of course they are not because in 95% of the time the customer wouldn't be aware of the alternative and thus will want Windows. However: have you ever *seen* the default installs of a Compaq or a Dell? No? I did: they are completely plastered with useless and idiot software, 3000 different services and stuff no normal user would ever need. Just to give you an idea: back in the Pentium days, I saw a Dell fresh out of the shop with 32Meg RAM (a lot in the time) and after bootup and doing nothing the memory usage was at 64Meg. Urks! That hurts, and that was a default install. Recent installs are better peformancewise, mainly due to cheap memory and fast CPU's, but the clutter is still there.
That is my problems with OEM's.... Not my problem with Microsoft. That is why any OEM machine that gest into my house just get booted up with a bootdisk/cd and reformatted on the spot.
And why don't people like Macs? (Linux I can understand) I don't get that: I used to dislike Macs, but that was a prejudice! I now have one and hell I've never had such a good system, and it's only an iBook.
Depends on the reason (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right - the OEMs are just making money, not playing ideology.
However, as I recall, years ago, you could get an OS-less PC from Dell. This was before M$ started strongarming companies, saying "put windows on everything you sell, or NOTHING." Obviously, from then on, OEMs sold windows on everything (this much is documented in the antitrust case).
Point is, are the OEMs basically refusing to sell OS-less PC's because it's convenient, or through fear? I know Dell will for some business clients, because usually they have a win site-license (could be mistaken about the details). However, they won't do it for just anyone.
I know it's hard to custom-make computers when you sell a jillion of them, but Dell does *some* tailoring of computers - it seems like formatting the HDD's of those pre-installed computers would not be that difficult to integrate into their business model. That's why I think there's still some fear of M$ involved.
Ehh ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ehh ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Using the car analogy, that seems a bit unfair. This is where the car analogy breaks down. In this instance, the component supplier demands that the user agree to either follow the terms of the agreement, or the supplier agrees to not provide that component AND THE CONSUMER IS ENTITLED TO A REFUND OF THE VALUE OF THE SUPPLIED PRODUCT!
As a result of the vendor's own terms, the consumer should get what they want.
Besides this, the manufacturer is de facto forced to pay the component supplier for licenses on the products, even if the customer doesn't want it. It's like paying protection money so that "god forbid...it would be awful if something were to happen to your business......"
It's a shakedown.
Hope this sheds some light on their perspective.
Respectfully,
Anomaly
Re:Ehh ... (Score:3, Informative)
> them to sell you the computer without the OS in the
> first place.
You seem to be missing the point that you *can't*,
because of Microsoft's criminal abuse of their
monopoly position.
Re:Ehh ... EULA! (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is that a graphics card doesn't come with an EULA that says you can return it for a refund if you don't agree to the ludacrisp (heh) terms.
What many people assume is that you want to install Linux on a laptop. What if I own a copy of Win2k, and don't want XP? I should be able to return XP and install my own copy of Win2k. It isn't all about Linux.
And part of what ticks people off is that they PAY for an OS that they are being forced to purchase. Microsoft has made sure that OEMs include a MS OS in the price by charging them whether they sell you one or not. Sure, you can say "then don't buy from them" but as long as the EULA exists and it says you can return it, people should do it. Not only that, you don't even get a full copy of the OS to do with as you please. If they gave you a full version, instead of those insane recovery disks, you could at least sell it or give it away.
You accepted the purchase of XP (Score:3, Insightful)
There are vendors that will sell a laptop with Linux installed. There are major vendors that will sell you a laptop without an OS. You have to call them and specifically request it - you won't find it on their website.
Right (Score:2)
When I bought my car, I didn't care about some "features", in fact I would prefer not to have them, but it is a package deal, that's what I chose.
I generally buy a preassembled computer because it is cheaper then buying all the components separately. Even though I end up with some things I don't care about.
You could build your own laptop, it would just be much more expensive then just buying one with "extra" features.
Re:You accepted the purchase of XP (Score:5, Informative)
That's just it - he may have accepted the purchase, but he didn't accept the EULA for Windows. After he bought it, he would have got home, opened it up, and been presented with additional terms & conditions, that he never agreed to beforehand, or even saw. That same document states that if he doesn't agree to them, he can get his money back.
The obvious way of fixing this is to present the EULA before purchase.
Are you all listening? (Score:5, Insightful)
You can build your own. (Score:2)
This special order would probaly end up costing you MUCH more then just paying for the extra crap you don't want, but that is your choice.
Free market, buy what you want. You are not being forced to buy windows, you're just not willing to seek out alternatives.
If you really want to protest, buy stock (become a part owner of the company), and complain about these practices at the next shareholders meeting.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Refunds for everyone! (Score:5, Insightful)
Bet you could. You just didn't want to wait for one to be built and shipped from the factory. Or you could've purchased a model with an improved radio.
Likewise, my townhome came with really terrible, contractor grade windows
Did you buy the townhome from the builder? If so then you could've opted to pay for a window upgrade. If you bought it from a previous owner, well, duh.
Oh, you didn't want windows at all? Sorry, that's not up to code and would be illegal.
Finally all the Macs in my organization run one flavor of Mac OS or another. I could not buy these things without Mac OS. Maybe I can convince Steve Jobs to give me $100 for each copy of Mac OS I don't use?
You just said you're using them. Make up your mind.
Face it, bundling is prevalent every where you look
Yes, but when you get charged for the bundled item even when you don't receive it then it's illegal. Particularly when a judge says "that's not a legal contract".
Frankly, a better comparison is being charged for lettuce, tomato, and pickles on a hamburger when you ask for them not to be put on. It's a customary practice in the US. The only difference I can think of is that the tomato, et. al. don't compromise 10-20% of the overall cost.
Re:Refunds for everyone! (Score:3, Insightful)
The windows in the house were chosen by free choice. The contractors could buy whatever window best fit the need and at the best price, from a number of competing vendors.
If Corning were to say to the contractor: "We'll give you a discount if you only sell houses with Pfister plumbing", there'd be an outrage!
If I were having a house built, I could easily ask for "only Corning glass" or "only Dia glass" and the Contractor would simply nod, and order Corning or Dia glass.
But, many computer vendors CAN'T nod because they've signed agreements to "only sell houses with Pfister plumbing" (Windows).
They had to - since MS has a monopoly on desktop O/S's, they've been able to force these kinds of deals.
This whole refund day is about trying to effect or at least highlight the need for positive change.
It's not about bundling, it about the un-natural lack of diversity in the available bundles, forced by MS on the industry.
If you can't see that, you are clueless.
Re:Refunds for everyone! (Score:3, Insightful)
I bought my VW Golf two years ago, and i'm very pleased with it, except for that crappy in-dash radio they MADE me buy. I could not buy the vehicle without buying the radio. Maybe we can organize a Factory Radio Refund Day?
When I bought my car, Ford offered a radio credit option, give them back the radio and they give you $500. I do not know if that is still an option though. Another point, you can take that radio out and sell it seperately from the car. You can put that radio in another car. You can take that radio apart and do what you want with it after you bought it.
Likewise, my townhome came with really terrible, contractor grade windows. I hate them. I was not allowed to buy the townhome without these windows. Maybe I can get my money back for them as well?
When building a house, you can choose any window you want, in a townhouse that is not an option. You can negotiate a selling price on that house based on your assessment. Cheap windows = cheaper price and the same things apply here as above, you can sell and modify those windows after you replace them with new ones.
There are many things in the real world that are sold as itegrated and some not. In my view, computer software is not and intergral part of computer hardware and should be allowed to be seperated, after all, the MS EULA specifically says you can get a refund of unused software, imagine VW claiming you could get a refund on the radio but you not being able to actually get it? That is the issue here. Considering those MS licenses are a larger % of the total cost it makes it worse
I guess buying a brand new car but requesting that they remove the glove box door and 2 of the four spark plugs because you don't want to pay for them is a little unrealistic, comparing that to completely removing MS software is not the same.
Re:Refunds for everyone! (Score:3, Insightful)
Did it come with an EULA that stated someone else could break into your car any second, watch what you have in the back, and possibly break your car if needs be? Or maybe delete that non-standard wheel that you added, because "oh, that may be used for racing!"?
So if you don't agree with that EULA you must take your stereo out of your car inmediately, but wait, that VOIDS the cars warranty and any customer support you could have gotten.
So in brief, bought a car and afterwards found out it came with a "bonus" that you CAN'T accept, but that will void your warranty if you don't accept. So eventually, the EULA of the car stereo may state that all you agree that all you bank accounts now belong to X BENEFICARY, and if you don't like it, you lose your warranty or whatever: they could even state that since you have already used the car, you can't return it now, because the warranty is void. And if you reinstall the stereo just to be able to get a refund, they could say they don't allow for refunds, only repairs.
Moreover, even in the case you don't give a damn about the warranty (or whatever is it that you are losing the rights to) and you agree not with the EULA of the stereo, and take it of the car, you still can't:
1) sell it
2) give it away for free
Maybe it could be posible that you can't even though it out of the street safely (that could be seen as promoting some else to use it). And even if you dispose it properly (say you bury it in the ground) and someone finds out, and they can check the serial number of the stereo and conclude you gave it away to somebody else and claim lost sales because of your actions.
Now replace stereo with Software and car with Computer and see if it's true or not. Ok, it's an extreme example, but goes to show your analogy is really failed.
Re:Refunds for everyone! (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole "Windows Refund Day" is not about bundling. Yes, Microsoft, or any other vendor/manufacturer is perfectly free to bundle their software on your spiffy new PC, just like VW is free to bundle crappy stereos with their cars.
Where the important difference comes in is a quasi-legal contract called the End User License Agreement which you must agree to be bound by if you wish to use the software. 99% of the population don't read them and simply accept them. I suggest you take an afternoon some time and comb through one. The highlights of a typical EULA are this:
Frankly, I doubt your VW Golf, or your townhome came with such an agreement. (Your Mac is a different story, since EULAs are a standard practice in the software industry...although I am not familiar with Apple's EULAs, I suspect they have a similar clause.
The whole idea behind the Windows refund day is to illustrate that not even the software manufacturers pay any heed to their own EULAs. It's not about Microsoft-bashing, they just happen to be a very convenient target for too many reasons to list here...
My experience with Fujitsu (Score:5, Interesting)
Their argument was i agreed to THEIR EULA which states i can't get a refund, when i purchased it. Either they were ignorant or refused to give a refund under any circumstance. I would have contacted a lawyer but it just isn't worth my time.
Re:My experience with Fujitsu (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:My experience with Fujitsu (Score:4, Funny)
Re:My experience with Fujitsu (Score:3, Informative)
Let's see... (Score:5, Insightful)
[MS] If you sell just our OS you can have them at $20.00 each.
[Dell] Ok.
[Techie] Dell, will you give me a refund for this unused OS at full market value?
[Dell] No.
[Techie] MS, will you give me a refund for this unused OS at full market value?
[MS] Uh, no.
[Techie] I can't figure out why these guys won't budge...
Your price list is wrong... (Score:3, Informative)
OK, maybe the next one for $15?
Let's look for something with a key...OEM or not. Ah, here's one for $85, including free shipping!
Hmmm. So, it's not XP Pro it's XP Home. Wait, a few blocks down here's XP Pro for $107.89!
No CD. Hmmm. OK, we'll look for a full (OEM or not) Windows XP Pro CD with a valid key. What does that go for? $135;
...for the OEM version.
Toshiba's Policy (Score:5, Interesting)
And most vendors around here charge a 15% restocking fee for notebooks, so you can see how far you would get.
As has been suggested before, if you do not want a given item (Windows or whatever), then either look for a system that does not include it, build your own, or have someone build one to your specs. This will enable you to get exactly what you want and no more at a price you are willing to pay, and it will also provide an incentive for the manufacturers to provide systems that meet your desire so that they can get your business.
I consider the refund day concept to be little more than a minor publicity prank and of little practical value. What might make it beneficial would be for a group of users to purchase a product, refuse to accept the EULA, and then demand refunds per the instructions included in the EULA (supposedly this has happened with the people that would be participating in the refund day). Microsoft would probably point the users to the vendor, and the vendors would probably stand on their return policies. An ambitious and capable law firm might be able to make a case out of this, but the outcome would probably be along the lines of prohibiting vendors from charging restocking fees on items where the customer refuses to accept the EULA unless it was presented prior to purchase. The law firm wouyld also rack up fees to be paid by someone, probably the vendors. This would not amount to a significant change.
If you REALLY want to make a change in the marketplace, don't give your money to companies that you do not agree with or whose policies you dislike. If enough people do this it will force changes in the market. And if not enough people do this to make a difference, then you need to accept that you hold a minority viewpoint and are a niche customer.
IANAL, and you should pay for legal advice rather than believe anything you read here.
Re:Toshiba's Policy (Score:4, Interesting)
If Toshiba wraps their own policy that you must return the whole unit, not the individual (Windows) part for a refund, then they must accept the whole unit without a restocking fee because again, this restriction was not disclosed to you before you made the purchase decision. The way to protest this would be to have people each buy one Toshiba laptop, open up the box to discover the bag with this policy on it, then walk back into the store saying you desire the full refund the cellophane bag promises. After a couple Best Buy stores discover that every Toshiba laptop they have is going to have to be sold as an open box item, Best Buy will tell Toshiba they have to come up with a better solution to this problem.
If the store has a contradictory restocking fee policy that they refuse to waive, Toshiba's got a problem here. They promised you a "full refund", and the store won't give one to you. If they can't live up to the "quid pro quo" on the cellophane bag, then the contract is invalid, and you get to open up the bag and discover the Microsoft EULA which sends this whole problem back to square one.
Bottom line: Contractal terms inside of product packaging will eventually fail, and the solution is to put the EULA outside of the retail box. Of course, how's Microsoft gonna handle that PR hit?
Must Accept EULA or computer doesn't work (Score:3, Interesting)
wait a minute... (Score:5, Interesting)
err... how *did* the first refund day turn out?
Re:wait a minute... (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft condescendingly had a banner that said "Microsoft Welcomes the Linux Community" and offered free lemonade.
Of course, Katz disagreed [slashdot.org].
Pictures here [svlug.org].
W
Re:wait a minute... (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't get this "refund" thing. (Score:3)
As a anti-Microsoft PR show-off, this refund thing is fine, for the little good these things produce. However, I can't agree with people holding that there is a legal basis for it. The OS is just a piece of a system: manifacturers are free to choose which pieces their system is made of. We customers make are pro/cons and cost/benefit analysis and then decide if to buy the system or go elsewhere.
Requiring a refund for the OS is for me on the par with requiring a refund for the hard-disk.
Re:I don't get this "refund" thing. (Score:5, Interesting)
In general tying laws restrict when a manufacturer may tie in two products without offering the individual products for sale separately as well.
However, as long as we look at "a computer" as the product, a manufacturer may get away with tying without providing a bare box as an option in many countries by pointing to the fact that a consumer has many alternate sources of bare hardware.
On the other hand, though, a manufacturers offering a hardware platform with unique capabilities would have bigger problems doing this, as a consumer could claim that the manufacturer was utilizing it's monopoly in the manufacture of that specific hardware to pressure him/her to buy a product they don't want or need.
Various countries have wildly different laws here, but assuming that manufactureres are automatically free to decide what their system is made up of is wrong almost everywhere.
(ObDisclaimer: IANAL)
Re:I don't get this "refund" thing. (Score:3, Insightful)
In the case of computers, that demand is provably there, as several manufacturers do sell reasonable quantities of computers without operating systems, and the cost of doing so is low.
Whether or not the OS or the computer "do much" without the other isn't relevant. A card doesn't "do much" without fuel, yet you don't consider a car and fuel to be one product and allow the auto industry to sell cars bundled with a lifetime supply of petrol. In fact, if GM tried that, their dominant position in the US car market would mean they'd instantly get slapped with an antitrust lawsuit for violation of the tying provisions in US antitrust law if they tried a stunt like that.
Actual laws regarding tying wary quite a bit between countries, but I'd be willing to be you'd be unable to find any country where the courts wouldn't agree that a bare computer and an OS are two separate products.
Whether or not you deserve a refund, however is more complicated than that. In the Windows case, your purchase is essentially defect unless you agree to contract terms (Microsofts EULA) that you likely weren't informed about at the point of purchase). Defect in the way that you will be unable to legally use a part of the bundle that you paid for (Windows). Again, depending on where you live that may give you the right to a refund for the OS, or it might "only" give you a right of refund for the whole system, or if you're unlucky none at all.
However all of this is a digression from the point of the message you replied to. My only point was that believing that manufacturers are free to include whatever they want is naive. There are lots of regulations restricting what manufacturers may do - in particular with regards to tying of products that there is separate demand for as long as they don't offer the products unbundled as well.
Re:I don't get this "refund" thing. (Score:4, Interesting)
Thinking again ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I still don't buy the "they cannot bundle" argument, but the EULA argument is compelling. I could find a copy of the Win95 handbook that came with my old laptop. On page 1 there is the EULA. It says:
So, they promised a refund. They should comply.
Ahem (Score:5, Funny)
Judge: "So Mr. Linux user, you bought a laptop that you knew comes with WindowsXP even through you didn't want it?"
Linux guy: "Yes"
Judge: "Can you buy a laptop that doesn't come with Windows? In fact, can't you buy a laptop that has Linux preinstalled?"
Linux guy: "Yes"
Judge: "So despite having a choice, and not being forced to pick the Windows laptop, you bought it anyway and think you're entitled to a refund?"
Linux guy "YESS!!!"
Judge: "Bailiff, please escort these Birkenstock-wearing geeks out of my courtroom"
*cough* (Score:3, Funny)
Linux guy: I did want Windows XP. However, when I opened the computer it tried to restrain my rights after the purchase, which is clearly illegal. The computer did however give me the option that I could decline the EULA and demand a full refund. However the company refused to honor their EULA, so here I am.
Judge: So you didn't do this just to piss them off?
Linux guy (trying to keep a straight face): No, your honor. *snicker*
Judge: I don't believe you for a second. But you're still entitled to that refund.
Kjella
How About Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)
System restore disks (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem was that the default install had a bug in it that would crash the computer on shutdown or sleep. (Pretty annoying) Many other people have this computer where I live (a company 'bonus' of sorts), and as I occationally go out and 'fix' these things, I saw *alot* of them with no patch installed (clueless users with no internet access).
Since the patch was marginal at best, the eventual solution was to install windows 98 from a regular install disk. Since they have already paid for Windows (that doesn't work), can I give them a 'copy' under fair use rights? Would it be easier to get a refund for a windows 'install' that doesn't work?
Later, I'll tell you the story of the family that had *140 separate instances* of trojans running at the same time...
Re:System restore disks - OT (Score:3, Funny)
They called me because the computer was doing strange things, like programs opening, windows moving, weird sounds and error messages. Along with all the usual crap (edutainment *ugh, 9.95 games from Walmart), they were also running MSN Messenger, AOL IM, ICQ and Kazaa in all its spyware popup glory.
I ran AdAware and sat transfixed as the *running processes* counter went up and up and UP. I just started laughing, I was so amazed. After I had printed out the list ('twas a keeper), I explained what was wrong. I let them know that their computer was '0wN3D' ;)
They started blaming each other for 'messing up the computer'. The funny thing was that Mom and Dad were just as clueless as the kids. I put a stop to the blame game, and explained what a virus, trojan, and spyware was, and how to avoid them.
I wiped the drive (no way was I going to take chances with the Most Compromised System award winner), installed win 98 (no restore disk!), installed AdAware, ZoneAlarm, and Norton Antivirus.
I explained to the most savvy of the girls how to update the sig files, set it to go automatically, and explained what was going to happen when/if any of these programs red lighted something, and how to deal with it.
I explained Kazaa, and gave some alternatives (no Lite version at that time). I then got the hell out of there, holding a 20 page list of trojans and viruses.
Later, I'll tell you about the woman who thought the Space Theme was a virus. ;)
Before you send anything back... (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically what it boiled down to is that they refused to provide any service under my warranty unless I ran the operating system that came with the laptop. I asked the guy, "is my warranty effectively invalid if I run Linux?". He said that, unfortunately, that was, in essence, the case.
So, just a word to the wise that if you don't install XP on your system, you may in fact be making your warranty irrelevent even for hardware specific problems.
Re:Before you send anything back... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Before you send anything back... (Score:5, Informative)
In any case, there are IMPLIED warranties that arise simply out of the sale which cannot be disclaimed if a written warranty is provided and assuming this was a consumer sale. The most common is the implied warranty of merchantability (Uniform Commercial Code Section 2-314). Every state has a version except LA, and maybe even them by now. Also, breach of warranty is in most states an unfair and deceptive business practice that can get you 3 times your actual damages or a sum set by statute, whichever is greater, plus attorneys fees. You should be able to file this in small claims court abd get a very good result.
Remember - you bought a piece of HARDWARE and it is the hardware that is defective. As a matter of fact, unless that clear and conspicuous language is there, I would put in a separate count claiming that merely telling you that running Linux invalidates a warranty is unfair and deceptive, entitling you to damages. If it is there, I would claim that warranty provision is invalid and itself unfair and deceptive.
Never had to... (Score:3, Interesting)
if I ever buy a notebook, I'll try to:
1- buy with linux pre-installed
2- buy one with _NO_ OS whatsoever.
if that's not possible, I'll use brasilian law, that forbides forced bundles such as this, and make them sell the machine without an OS.
Now, the big question.
i installed linux in a compaq iPaq. anyone succeeded in geting a refund for winCE ?
Linux/No-OS laptop vendors (Score:5, Informative)
You should realize though that most of these companies purchase the hardware from companies like Sager [sagernotebook.com] (Linux forum [sagerforums.com]) and Compal [compal.com], and those companies also supply the big-name guys like Compaq, HP, Dell, and Toshiba. So when you find some no-name laptop, it is usually equivalent to some branded laptop that never touched the hands of HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell. (And figuring out exactly *which* brand-name laptop it is equivalent to can be extremely difficult) Some of the below claim to manufacture their own notebooks, but what this means is that they buy them from Saeger/Compal or someone else, and put in a hard drive/CPU/RAM, which is why you will find identical looking cases at several of these vendors.
If you find a HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell/IBM/Sony branded laptop that has linux preinstalled, it means that the vendor paid for windows and removed it. I do not list them below because I think this is a despicable and deceptive practice. These manufacturers do not (yet) sell no-os or linux laptops. (But please, call them and ask!! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!) Also if you order a no-OS laptop, please request linux to be installed anyway, and tell them you'll pay for it! Let them know there is demand!
-- Bob
to all the "buy from here ..." people (Score:3, Interesting)
For me this is why the Windows refund is important. If I happen to like the Sony VAIO series (which I do, 3 lbs laptops are important to the constant traveller) I should not have to spend money on an OS I will not use just for the privilege. But for me it is more than that. I do not want a license for Windows. Why let a corporation declare me as one of their users?
Somebody earlier made a car analogy. I actually quite like it. The OS is an add-on, like leather seats or the nifty Bose sound system. On most models of car you can opt not to have them. Just like a cigarette lighter. Yes some of the high end systems "force" you to purchase the leather but in general people buying them do not mind. But there are reasonable models available otherwise. In laptops we either buy sight unseen from unknown web vendors or we go to the nice store and buy what we like.
Personally I would not mind waiting 3 weeks for a laptop if it came configured how I like so it is not the immediate nature of the store or the purchase constraining me. It is the lack of real choice.
Show me a 3 to 3.5 lb. laptop (with a battery, one of the models mentioned in the comments here did not support an internal battery) that I can buy sans OS or with some version of Linux. Then point out some vendor who carries them in real stores and not just in faceless online retailers.
For desktops I have always built my own. Even used to work at a place that built customs for people (OS was always an option). It is specifically laptops that are the annoyance because we are forced to treat them like a Lexus.
(As a side note I understand that many OEMs were charged a mere 25 US cents for Windows 95 when it came out. So yes, this is more than just money here.)
GamePC, another "no OS" option vendor. (Score:3, Informative)
(I'm putting QNX [qnx.com] on it, for embedded development. QNX, incidentally, has become more friendly to Linux programmers. They now use the GNU toolchain. If you're not doing real-time work, QNX now works a lot like Linux. If you are doing real-time work, it works a lot better than Linux.)
Dell Supplying Windows Only PCs; Refunds Moot (Score:3, Informative)
Windows refunds will become a moot point as this trend continues. Although folks are familar with WinModems, I just got a machine from Dell that:
* Included a sound card that only ran under Windows XP. It just wouldn't run under Linux no matter what I did to the driver.
* Has a chipset that recent Linux kernels cannot understand - so no DMA for hard drives, and no USB2.0 support.
I rectified the first issue by complaining long and loud to Dell, and they finally sent me a new sound card, identical chips on board, that worked fine in all operating systems. I'm hoping that a new kernel will eventually fix the chipset issue.
The machine is a Dimension 4550, which should be about as bog standard as they get. This isn't a laptop, BTW; it is a 'normal' desktop machine, and the first that I've seen that is at least partially Linux incompatible.
At any rate, this refund issue is going to go away as the larger OEMs introduce models tied to specific versions of Windows. Time to start investigating other options.
jonathan
What no one has mentioned - small claims court (Score:5, Informative)
Just take your receipt and your laptop with no windows on it to the court, along with the EULA. You've got a good chance of winning, and merely filing the lawsuit will probably prompt the company to settle out of court. Make sure they pay your filing fee, of course.
If you have to miss a day of work to go to court, in some places you can sue for that too (assuming it's an issue where you work).
To reiterate: small claims is really no big deal, and the company probably won't let it get to that point anyway. Too bad you have to sue the vendor, and don't get to drag M$ into small claims court. That would be too cool.
last summer... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:last summer... (Score:3, Interesting)
So far, I am three for three on obtaining refunds on opened software even though their stated policy was "no refund" on opened software. However, none were trivial. The first two each took 1/2 hour arguing with the manager. I must have refined my arguements because the last one only took 10 minutes.
HERE IT IS! ENJOY! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Well (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Well (Score:2)
Re:Well (Score:2)
Pff! You live in the United States, where lawsuits rule.
You have the opportunity to sue Red Hat for failed promisses and have them reimburse you for your download time PLUS lost productivity.
It'll happen. Just wait.
Re:Well (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Well (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I have piles of Windows copies (Score:3, Insightful)
The wording is such that if you don't agree with the licensing agreement, you can return the package unopenned for a refund. If you open it, you can't return it. I presume that if it's windows 3.1 or DOS, the package would have been openned. At the very least in the case of DOS, since they always factory installed that.
As for getting the refund, I'd never even tried getting it from MS, but many smaller mom&pop shops will cross off the Windows line on the invoice and give you a discount if you don't want windows. The discount isn't quite as high as you might think though -- They only offered $30 (Canadian) off if I didn't want winXP. Considering that the shop across the street was (illegally, I guess) selling OEM winXP for $110(Canadian) I had expected more.
IMO, it's not really worth the bother if it's only going to be $30.
Re:Transfer of license OK (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, since what you bought was actually a copyrighted item, not a licensed item (after all, were you presented with a licensing agreement at the time of sale? Didn't think so. And those EULAs don't count - they're an attempt to impose a license after after the sale) you can do whatever you want with it, except make copies in violation of the copyright.
Buy the machine with XP, install linux, and sell your copy of XP to whomever you want. They're free to register it, or not.
If you don't believe me, google the quebec consumer protection act,
Re:Transfer of license OK (Score:3, Informative)
My guess is, it's the same here (Switzerland). Although the EULA contains all sort of bullshit, I don't think that they can prevent you from reselling the license. Most European countries have even stronger consumer protection.
What does prevent it however, are the fine folks @ Microsoft, who extort your OEM in adding a crippled copy of XP, which only insalls on - say - Fujitsu-Siemens computers and then it just formats away and provides you with the base install of your computer. (Moderators note, they call that recovery disk. You might as well mod Microsoft as funny.)
Of course such a crippled version is just about useless and it's resell value is probably zilch.