State Coalition Approves Internet Sales Tax Plan 450
An anonymous reader submits this story about the U.S. states banding together to figure out a way to tax mail-order transactions.
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State Coalition Approves Internet Sales Tax Plan
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thats horrible (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:thats horrible (Score:3, Funny)
buying it in real life, and the taxes are
still the same.
Re:thats horrible (Score:5, Insightful)
Further, shipping is often no more than tax anyway.
Re:thats horrible (Score:2)
Re:thats horrible (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me get this straight...
You work hard to earn money. The government then tells you you have to pay them for everything you buy in your state, so you "shop around" looking for someplace to buy the good that doesn't make that silly requirement. And then the "honorable" thing is to pay that money to the state anyway? You've been listening to tax-and-spend Democrats too long, I think. It's scary that anyone would actually believe what you just outlined.
I hate taxes, but they are a necessary evil, within reason. But we need to get a clue: 1) Tax sales *OR* 2) Tax income. Taxing both *IS* dishonorable and reprehensible, so don't depend on MY honor to support a dishonorable system.
Give me a fair taxation system and I'll think of going out of my way to do the "honorable" thing. In the meantime, believe me, I will pay the absolute minimum I can get away with legally or practically.
Re:thats horrible (Score:5, Insightful)
Adding sales tax would suck, but it wouldn't prevent me from shopping online.
You forgot one (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You forgot one (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I think I have a better solution... (Score:3, Interesting)
Basically, it is that shipping charges must be made deductible from the taxes owed. I can live with this. If I have to pay both shipping, and taxes, forget online purchases. I can find everything I purchase online locally. I wrote to TigerDirect today with this idea, emailing their CEO. I am going to contact my local computer shop that sells the vast majority of their items online, and who would probably close because of this legislation (small seller), and I am also going to contact Quill, as I buy a lot from them as well. I'll be contacting my legislators with this idea as well.
Read my post linked above, and if you think the idea is good, please help out by contacting your favorite online seller with the idea. Ask to have the email forwarded to the CEO, look at the about page for relevant email addresses. Please help out. This idea needs to be implanted into the minds of the legislators, and the online merchants who will be fighting the bill. They states may go for it if they see they won't get what they want with any other method. Please send those emails today. If you care at all about online buying, and preserving a wide choice of sellers, please help out. Thanks.
Re:thats horrible (Score:3, Insightful)
If we have to pay shipping and tax I will never buy anything online ever again!
What's more likely to happen is that you will pay tax but you'll be able to pick the item up at a local store. Right now online companies are reluctant to open up lots of pickup locations, cause once they open one up they now have a nexus to be taxed in that state.
Re:thats horrible (Score:2)
Re:thats horrible (Score:5, Insightful)
How? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:How? (Score:4, Informative)
Note that Dell is based in Texas...(So it's not a matter of collecting sales tax from the originating state)
Re:How? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How to implement? Trivial. (Score:5, Interesting)
Zipcodes are five digits long right? That's a lookup table of 100,000 tax rates. The tax rate for each cell in this lookup tables comes from one of approximately 50 entities, or about 2,000 zip codes per state.
100,000 tax rates and say 4 bytes per tax rate. That's a 400K table. Pretty small table overall.
Each state probably has at most 100 different state tax rates. That I am sure is a gross overestimate. I bet it's more like 10.
This seems like a pretty easy job of data asembling to do.
You can have each state make their own particular lookup table made available from their secretary of state, or available with their digital signature available from the state website.
Then start with one zipcode to state lookup table published by the USPS and available online, signed, at some well known URL.
The rest is a smop for the sophomore programmer.
If you're a legacy (*nix, windows) publisher, you assign an intern to call up each 50 states and get their tax rates tables and stick that into your legacy app.
OR, if you're an ASP/VSP, you can make one website surf the state urls for updates and make that available as one interface (SOAP, XML-RPC)
Pretty easy. I never understood the arguments that this was too hard to implement.
It's not finding the rate that's hard. (Score:2)
Let's say you're an internet business. Do you honestly want to be writing out all those checks?
Re:It's not finding the rate that's hard. (Score:3, Insightful)
A) Send each state a check
B) Send each state a check and a table of how
to split that up.
C) Send my CPA one check and a table of how
to split that up.
D) Send paypal instructions to charge
sales tax and send that to the states
E) Send some company one check and a table of
how to split that up.
F) Have accounting software send each state
a check and a table of how to split that up
G) Have accounting software use XML-RPC/SOAP
to send each check their funds and
information on how to split that up.
Unfortunately, I would expect that I need to keep proper records in case someone decides to audit me. Unfortunately, I would expect some state treasurer to become a dipshit and audit way too many people.
So no, I don't want the job of writing out those checks. Luckily, I can't imagine that in a world of
free enterprise that I couldn't pay someone
a very small amount to take that job off my
hands.
Re:It's not finding the rate that's hard. (Score:5, Insightful)
My partner and I are incorporated, and I can tell you that the administrative workload increases very quickly when you start doing things in other states, and writing checks is the very least of the load. Have a half-day-a-week employee in the neighboring state? Great...don't forget to open a tax account in that state, deposit witholding taxes there every month, pay unemployment taxes every quarter, and file a tax return every quarter. Client wants you to visit sites in five different states? Super....each of those states expects you to pay income tax on the 12 hours of work you did there. They may have a "neighboring state" agreement with your state, or they may allow you to declare those twelve hours in your home state, but it's totally up to them.
Collecting taxes for every jurisdiction in which you make a sale would be a nightmare for small operators.
Re:How to implement? Trivial. (Score:5, Informative)
Small lookup table? Almost. You can purchase them right now. It's a problem that has been solved, but it's not quite as simple as you think. I once worked on an automated system that calculated sales tax for customers in several states where the company had a physical presence. First off there may be state tax. Then there may be city tax. Then there may be an Independant School District (I don't know about other states but in Texas they are independant taxing authorities.) In almost every case ZIP code is enough to uniquely identify the 3 or 4 different tax rates. Occasionally there was a ZIP code that was split by different taxing districts. In that case the full ZIP + 4 was needed, introducing a few more lookup values.
Once you've done that lookup, you have the tax rates. Add them all together and you know how much tax to charge.
Of course then you have to file the paperwork with each of those different taxing authorities and cut them their checks, usually on different schedules...
In short, it's a nightmare. But actually doing it for all 50 states wouldn't be much more complicated than for one. At least it wouldn't be too bad from a programmer's point of view. The biggest burden would be on the accountants and lawyers.
Re:How to implement? Trivial. (Score:2)
The tax rates will come from the different states or the different counties based on zip code, and if the states really wanted to tax based on zip codes, then they could easily offer a mechanism whereby any developer/publisher could obtain the state specific lookup table.
As I said before it's the arguments about how difficult this is to implement that I can't figure out. I understand the controversy as to whether we should be taxing internet sales at all.
Re:How to implement? Trivial. (Score:4, Insightful)
The list of what is taxable and what is not is very complicated. You've got your "sin" taxes on alcohol and cigarettes, which can also vary by ZIP+4 code. Another example (from New York) is that large marshmallows are taxable because they're considered candy, but small marshmallows are non-taxable because they're baking ingredients (it's been a while since I was in retail, I might have gotten it backwards). So you need another lookup table for that.
Your lookup table might be good enough for 99.9% of the items out there. But you'll have some angry customers and zealous prosecutors to remind you when you're wrong.
Perhaps a better idea would be to simply allow the end user to enter the amount of tax due. Give them an online calculator to help them with the math. This is what mail-order houses sometimes do. Yes, it's voluntary, and subject to abuse, and people will get it wrong. However, it is much easier to implement. A bonus feature is that you can start a pool for the date of the first Slashdot story about a site getting hacked by someone entering a negative tax.
Yeah, as if that will change anything. (Score:5, Insightful)
the only draw that has kept mail order and now the internet alive is the fact that you can offset the shipping costs by bypassing the sales tax (Illegal I know, you are supposed to pay it yourself in april..... prove I bought that armani sofa mister secretary of the state!)
most of the time if I find something online for cheap, I can find it within a 1 hour drive of my home for the same price. the lack of sales tax offsets the shipping (most items) and makes the buyer happy with waiting for delivery.
any state that adopts or joins this will kill the Ecommerce in their state.
Re:Yeah, as if that will change anything. (Score:2, Interesting)
Sorry, from the the article
When 10 states agree, they can force the remaining 40 to follow their whims.
I'm not an expert on the US constitution - anyone know what it has to say about this scam?
Re:Yeah, as if that will change anything. (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the main reasons for moving to the Constitution from the original Articles of Confederation was to give the national government the ability to regulate interstate commerce.
Initially, there was widespread, state sponsored price gouging. Items passing through one state on their way to another were taxed heavily upon entering and upon leaving. Many people saw this as ridiculous.
The Constitution gives the federal government the sole ability to tax interstate commerce. It's one of the few regulations specifically entitled to the national government: it is not now, and should not ever, be enforced by the states. It is likely that a clever lawyer could argue this either way: on one hand it's a set of states banding together to control commerce between states, on the other hand it's states enforcing commerce that either begins or ends in their jurisdiction.
If someone managed to challenge this, it's likely that a national system would be implemented. It's easier to justify a national tax than state-by-state, optional taxation.
Re:Yeah, as if that will change anything. (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, as if that will change anything. (Score:2)
any state that adopts or joins this will kill the Ecommerce in their state.
First of all, I thought April was the income tax deadline, sales taxes are due at the end of each month.
Second, I can't access the article (WP
Re:Yeah, as if that will change anything. (Score:2)
E-commerce is big in Canada too, and we are taxed.
Online Shopping similar to Catalogs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Online Shopping similar to Catalogs (Score:2)
Re:Online Shopping similar to Catalogs (Score:3, Interesting)
Most places don't do this already because it would be an absolute nightmare to figure out what tax to charge. Say you're an online retailer in California. Are you saying you think you should need to know the local county sales taxes for Ohio residents? I don't know how other states do it, but here in Ohio, every single county determines their own sales tax rate. There are at least a hundred different counties. My sales tax is 7% but if I drive 10 minutes south of my home the tax is 5.5% in a different county. The state expects me to send them a 1.5% "Use tax" in April when I pay my taxes because I somehow profited by buying my goods in a county that charges 5.5% instead of 7%. How fucked up is that? Basically I give a big old finger to them all and buy everything out of state mail order now (which you're also expected to report and pay a 7% use tax.. I of course do that.. riiight). The only way to get around this shit is a nationwide sales tax. Abolish the IRS and put a flat rate tax on all goods. Then divy that up among the states and federal government. Probably need a 20-25% sales tax for it to work though. Ouch.
Re:Online Shopping similar to Catalogs (Score:2)
I believe the way the mail order ruling was arrived at has to do with the US Constitution not allowing inter-state tariffs. Sales taxes can only be levied by a state on its own citizens. Any levies on inter-state commerce would amount to a tariff.
Re:Online Shopping similar to Catalogs (Score:2)
They ARE looking into taxing catalog sales. Aparrantly catalog sales are still bigger business than internet sales, especially around the winter holidays.
They only way I see them getting around that Supreme Court ruling would be for them to scrap state sales taxes and institute a national sales tax. Otherwise, the states aren't supposed to interfere with each others interstate commerce.
No Tax (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No Tax (Score:5, Funny)
They have had a way to tax that for centuries. It's called a tariff.
Re:No Tax (Score:2)
My parents recently got a use tax bill from the State of New York for taxes on the dollar amount of goods that they declared on their customs form when they returned from a trip to Europe. The amount involved wasn't even enough for the Feds to assess any import duties, but apparently New York has access to those records and is using them to facilitate collecting their use tax.
Re:No Tax (Score:3, Informative)
Have the retailers sending your goods as a gift (Score:2)
Normally, you'll have to pay tariff on the goods. But if the fair retail value does not exceed $100, you could avoid the tariff by having the retailer send your goods as a gift. More info here [ustreas.gov]. I guess you could negotiate with smaller website owners regarding this, but the big ones probably don't want to take the risk.
Local Option Taxes (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally hate the fact that each city can have its own different tax, and would love to see a consistent sales tax everywhere I go.
However...the reason that most of these local option taxes exist is to fund a specialized project that otherwise would not happen. Several area towns have used this to direct money toward schools, rec centers, etc.
All in all, seems as though the government is trying to stuff their large, greedy paws in the cookie jar, and they may not even come away with anything except crumbs. The administration of the plan, and the sharing of profits with vendors that is mentioned in the article may in fact eat up most of the profits that the government thinks they would see.
My $.02
There already is a sales tax, no need for double! (Score:5, Interesting)
That's why I have to pay Texas sales tax on my crucial.com purchases even though they are not in Texas. If, on the other hand, I buy something from NewEgg.com, which is in California, I pay no sales tax because they do not have a business presence in Texas. California residents do pay sales tax.
Internet sales are just like mail-order catalogs, and the same tax rules apply. We have no need for new laws on this.
Re:There already is a sales tax, no need for doubl (Score:2)
The reason in the past that they have not succeded in the past (and so far now) is that it's impossible for any company to follow all the rules for the 7000+ different taxing athorities in the U.S. The idea is that the 30 states will pass laws setting the sales taxes for the whole state to be the same and the same accross participating states. They would then get congress to pass a law forcing all e-tailers and mail-order houses to collect taxes when shipping to somebody living in a particpating state.
I still don't think it's fair or easy, especially since they are suggesting strict requirments on only using approved tax packages.
subsolar
Re:There already is a sales tax, no need for doubl (Score:2)
While it might be a little much for vlookup, I doubt it is that hard to check zip code and tax rate. The only real issue is creating a clearinghouse for the tax revenue, so you aren't writing checks to 7,000 different jurisdictions.
Re:There already is a sales tax, no need for doubl (Score:2)
All of that said, if the states fail in their quest, they will prob just move toward a higher property tax/income rate. (in my part of the world, the local city has a budget shortfall due to the lack of tourists spending money at local stores. a property tax would have avoided the problem, although at the expense of the local population)
Re:There already is a sales tax, no need for doubl (Score:2)
Unless I'm totally missing the point of the article, this is about charging you tax on transactions with out-of-state vendors, whether or not they have a physical presence in your state.
As far as mail order goes, that's what I was wondering. would this apply to telephone or mail orders, as well?
Two random political thoughts: 1) The Jake Garn quoted here must be the son or grandson of the former Utah senator, right? It can't be the guy himself. 2) I never expected to see ultraconservative Grover Norquist worrying about the security of my purchase of sex toys...
An opportunity for free software? (Score:2, Troll)
Under the states' plan, online sellers would be required to purchase approved software to compute the appropriate state and local taxes or to certify with the state any in-house calculation systems already in place. E-tailers could choose to outsource tax collection to a certified third-party under the states' plan.
So far, participating states have conducted only one tax software pilot, involving four states, three technology vendors, and one online seller. Of the technology vendors participating in the pilot, just one -- Salem, Mass.-based Taxware, working in conjunction with Hewlett-Packard -- managed to get a system up and running.
I hope that the states don't go with a "trusted client" model that requires a specific piece of proprietary software in the point-of-sale system, and possibly a monopoly publisher. Write your state legislatures and ask them to consider the use of free software [gnu.org] in this interstate catalog/internet sales tax measure should it pass.
Federal Gov't? (Score:4, Insightful)
The states banding together for a common based law? isn't that called the Federal Government? I'm not a historian, but i thought that it was the Federal government's duty to create nationwide laws and regulations...
Re:Federal Gov't? (Score:4, Insightful)
Estimates schestimates (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, and I lose several grand a year by not skimming funds off a local company's treasury. "Lose" is too misleading. It's like buying a can of beans with a coupon and saving 49 whole cents.
Not sure what the point is... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure every state is different - thus the proposal. But as a customer, now I need to know if the other state is charging taxes, what the rate is so I can get credit, blah... It just puts the burden right back on my sholders.
yay socialism! (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey! I know... lets form another TASK FORCE to investigate this problem. Then they will take a 5 year period to basically tell us either what we all already know or simply say, "we need more time" but either way nothing will change. YAY! Self perpetuating machine that goes against EVERYTHING our country was founded on! YAY!
+5 Insightful? (Score:4, Interesting)
Damn but we do have some bitter 'merican slashdotters...
People gripe about taxes. But then they say, "Hell, could be worse, couldn't it? I mean, we could be livin in one o' them Yuro-peein countries and paying fifty percent in taxes. Hell, I don't know how they stand it."
And I always have the same response. "I don't care how much I pay, as long as it's spent efficiently." If the State takes 100% of my paycheck, then efficient spending provides that they are able to find a way to compensate me for 100% of the value I contribute to my company.
In the 'States we're definitely burning about 92 cents on the dollar, I agree. But most of the people clamoring for "reform" really want a system that is worse at stopping them from screwing people more than they are. Flat taxers are invariably rich. Rich people are almost invariably flat taxers. Rich people that aren't flat taxers have more heart than brains, and poor folk who are flat taxers just really don't know who to trust. Let's just say there are reasons they aren't rich.
I always thought Washington state was full of peacenik hippie freaks. Turns out it is, except they keep electing Democrats who keep out a state income tax (you read that right) in favor of a single-mother-crippling 9-percent sales tax.
Microsoft pays no federal income tax. Bill Gates pays no state income tax. Why do people vote for legislators that would rather have a dollar from a working mom than ten dollars from a billionaire? I can't say, but I intend to find out. I think it has something to do with how rare it would be finding Republicans campaigning on a state income-tax platform... Ah, another fine benefit of the two-party system.
Damn. Guess I'm one of them bitter 'mericans.
Well, I can't get to the article already. (Score:5, Insightful)
I did hear about this news story on Marketplace/NPR at work tonight. I already have to collect state sales taxes for stuff I ship within Texas, and it's complicated enough keeping track of and filing monthly for the little tax zone that I'm in. I understand that's the cost of doing business, but for someone who does an extremely small volume in a sole proprietorship this is quite frustrating. This just adds another (probably) half-inch thick stack of paperwork I have to deal with at tax time and year-round, more forms I have to fill out and more opportunities for me to get confused, screw something up, be audited and be fined or worse. I can't afford to hire an accountant or a tax attourney, so I have to learn all this myself.
Not to mention the fact that people are not going to want to pay sales tax for something after they're already paying $10-20 plus for shipping costs. Unless they plan on making sales tax an even amount for all counties, cities and metro areas across the country, I don't even see how this is possible -- nor can I see how it will serve any purpose except to hurt online sales that are already hurting to begin with. This just seems so unwise and poorly considered to me, both from the point of view of a small online business owner and as a person who orders many things online myself.
Re:Well, I can't get to the article already. (Score:2)
Very nice art btw.
Sign me up (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm...If online retailers want to levy a 10% fee for me, I'll gladly give them 9% back.
I say we rebel! (Score:3, Insightful)
State Budget Deficits (Score:5, Interesting)
This is unconstitutional! (Score:5, Interesting)
States can tax sales within their borders, but interstate commerce is up to the federal government. States have no right to do this.
Re:This is unconstitutional! (Score:4, Informative)
subsolar
Re:This is unconstitutional! (Score:5, Informative)
Once the states "simplify" their tax codes, there is no impediment for Congress to make a new law requiring interstate sales taxation. In fact, as representatives of the states, your representatives might be pretty encouraged to do just that.
Re:This is unconstitutional! (Score:2, Insightful)
The voluntary program would take effect when at least 10 states representing 20 percent of the U.S. population have amended their laws to implement the program. Participating states would then be free to ask Congress to approve a mandatory, nationwide online sales tax regime. It's unclear, however, if Congress would go along with any online sales tax proposal.
The federal government gives representation to each person in each state in these matters and can thus make decisions to enact or reject legislation like this. However, given which party is likely to influence this decision most (GOP), I find it hard to believe they'd push for a federal tax cut and enforce new local taxes. And what about those whacky states out there that find no reason to impose a sales tax. Is there some reason I am missing they wouldn't be opposed to this?
This will not just affect dot com retailers. It will effect a larger group of retailers that includes traditional stores that have taken advantage of internet opportunities. The political motivations to enforce such measures locally seem like they will be heavily outweighed by special interests that have a larger impact in more than one state - jobs, existing tax revenue, political support for candidates and so on.
Given this information, it seems likely that the states wouldn't succeed with this effort. Even if state goverments did manage to work together successfully, Congress and the Supreme Court have the opportunity to shoot it down at the federal level. And this is just what our economy needs, more unoriginal ideas about how to spend taxpayer money to increase their taxes.
Just so we're clear... (Score:2, Redundant)
a.) This isn't the U.S. Congress doing this. It's the states being greedy and (unintentionally?) destroying their online commerce.
b.) It requires a small but not obscenely small representation of states to go along with it before it will even be presented to Congress (if I'm reading this right).
c.) The "Streamlined Sales Tax Project" might be the worst taxing idea I've ever heard:
Now, establishing any sort of national taxes, especially those of the mandatory kind against the collective will of the states who didn't want to participate, wouldn't that interfere with some portion of our other laws? I thought it was our state's perogative to tax us however the hell they want. Anyone?
Supreme Court (Score:5, Informative)
A better solution (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't buy anything online from within my own state due to the sales tax issue. Everything is out of state. If this passes, I won't buy anything online anymore. There is little incentive when you are paying sales tax AND SHIPPING.
I just wrote a lengthy email to the TigerDirect CEO on this. You have to contact Senator George Allen, and any Senators that are not pro tax, pro big government, pro heavy social spending. And contact the CEO's of the online companies you use to make purchases. Think about my take on this, then contact them if you think it is good:
Internet sales tax collection is coming, and soon. The states will be demanding bailouts from the federal government for all of the deficit state budgets. This will be a bone that the federal reps will throw them, instead of having to hand out money from the federal kitty. The fight on this will be more ferocious this coming year than in the past because of the slowdown in the economy.
Shipping charges make up a large percentage of an online purchase. Excepting some of Amazon's sales (and they are not profitable yet), shipping is not free. You are either charged for it outright, or it is built into the price. Or the company doing the selling is a house of cards that will collapse sooner rather than later.
The brick and mortar stores cry that the online sellers have an advantage because they don't charge tax. But I get charge shipping on my purchases. Further, returns are a hassle. I still have items here because I didn't return them in time, including a power supply/ups that was incorrectly described in catalog and is useless to me, which cost over $100.
My solution, something that I could live with? Make the shipping costs directly deductible from the tax owed. $20.00 shipping cost? $35.00 tax? $15.00 gets remitted. $20 shipping cost? $15.00 tax? nothing gets remitted. The states will get more than they are getting now, but less than they want now. I'll be able to stomach making an online purchase, and most business will still remain. Otherwise, if this tax plan goes through, why would I buy anything online anymore? I'll go to my local computer shop, and buy everything there. I already do that with my hard drives, due to the ease in changing them when they fail (lots of GXP failures here). I have to pay taxes now on out of state purchases? Forget it.
I contacted TigerDirect today about my idea on deducting shipping costs from the taxes owed. Anyone else want to step in, help save our internet purchases by contacting your favorite reseller, and your Senator and Congressman? Don't bother with the tax loving, high spending, union backed, reps, stick with reps that consistently vote against tax increases. After all, if the rep likes spending, they'll support anything that doesn't come out of their spending kitty.
Please help by emailing your reps and online management today with this idea, or with a better one if you have it. I'm contacting another one of my online sellers now. Please do the same. Thanks.
Why should the Internet be different? (Score:2, Interesting)
We don't have to pay taxes (Score:3, Insightful)
People act like its inevitable. Its not. Quit being so damn powerless.
Re:We don't have to pay taxes (Score:2, Interesting)
Why don't you stop paying your income tax and see what happens in a year or so?
Better yet, just refuse to pay sales tax next time you drop by the grocery store.
Re:We don't have to pay taxes (Score:3, Interesting)
Still too early... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe they should.. (Score:3, Funny)
The part that really sucks... (Score:5, Interesting)
My little website [pjrc.com] is just one of thousands of tiny little businesses that are run part-time, or just barely pay the bills for one person to run it.
It's absolutely unbelievable what a lot of companies charge for "e-commerce" software. How likely is this to be a $49.95 turbo-tax package? Nope, it'll be targeted at businesses and a few blood-sucking companies will see this as a big opportunity to rake in the dollars from every on-line merchant. We've seen lots of this mega-expensive software, and we manage to get by and make customers happy without any of it. It's unheard of to be _required_ by law to purchase some particular (extreemly expensive) software. And with some special gov't appoval/certification process, you can be sure it'll be plenty expensive...
But for the little guys (like me), that money just isn't there. We can't spend thousands on software, or just about anything else for that matter. It looks like the company these states are working with is Taxware [taxware.com]. Go visit their site and take a wild guess at what they're going to charge for this sort of software. It ain't gonna be cheap.
The fact is that there are many thousands of very small on-line merchants. VERY small. Filing 45 tax returns is going to suck. Paying for expensive software, or consulting fees to some "approved" company will only add injury to the insult. Our accounting software budget includes a new version of Quickbooks for next year. That's about all we can afford software-wise.
And it goes against all other tax paying practice to require specific approved software. You don't need special software from a specific "approved" vendor to file taxes. You do need to know how to do it, of course. My partner is a CPA and she knows ordinary sales tax very well (even though we live in Oregon where there is no sales tax). Why should we be held hostage to purchasing special software? Why does it need to be from specially approved vendors?
If the tax can't be paid by a company with an ordinary CPA, and some special software is required, and that software is so special that vendors need to be certified by some special approval process, they certain't haven't made great strides towards making this a simple enough process. Special software isn't required for paying normal taxes, and requiring a special certification process for tax calculation software is totally unheard of. It reaks of a back-room deal between GovOne (the makers taxware) and these states... if some complicated certification process is required for anyone else trying to enter the market for this new software that every on-line merchant is compelled to buy, guess what the prices will be in the first year when Taxware is the only product available and everyone is REQUIRED to buy it?
Well, enough ranting for one day. Maybe it won't be so bad. I'm just in a bad mood because a customer refused to pay the tax/duty on a package we shipped to the UK (and now we need to do something about it, and all the options suck....)
Whoa. Calm Down. (Score:2)
Re:The part that really sucks... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's unheard of to be _required_ by law to purchase some particular (extreemly expensive) software.
This is, unfortunatly, quite common. My parents own a small business (land surveying company). I worked there as a "kid" (around 12-24) and still do from time to time (they can not use the specialized software I wrote and I can draw topographical maps more accurate than they can and they paid for nearly all my school and still help me if I run short of funds - and I also help them when they do). Local law REQUIRES that they provide an autocad file (nearly 4000 dollars for the software, Acad and supprting software included). This cost is EXTREMELY costly for them (no free (as in beer) option, that has all the functions that are required, software for them (of course suggestions are always welcome
Complicated... (Score:3, Insightful)
Other problems are collections. It's easy to say that retailers will just collect it at the time of purchase, but consider the case where you as a shopper live in a place where you have to pay state sales tax, county sales tax and city sales tax. The permutations are surely too much to reasonably expect retailers to be able to support. Now, I didn't think this would be a problem until I moved to Georgia last year. I know better now.
Technically, this would also affect auctions as well. Imaging trying to unload your wife's stash of rubber stamps and having to try to collect the tax and send it off to the proper collector. My head hurts...
One final thought... if all the other problems are resolved, what will happen if micropayments and microcharges ever get off the ground? You have to pay 3% of $.0005?
Cryptonomicon, whut? (Score:2)
Which states? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's Time to Send a Message to Congress (Score:4, Informative)
No more taxes. Really, when is enough enough?
Governments continue to tax more and more and it's time the people of this country make their position known -- we won't stand for it any longer.
Make it clear to these bozos in Washington and your local state that if they vote for this, they vote their demise. And them get off yer duff to make it so by participating in _your_ government.
Living In Pittsburgh , Pennsylvania (Score:3, Interesting)
Several of my friends order things online via eBay, and other various sites. The recent one that has become popular is cigarettes, they raised the taxs in the state to at least a dollar per pack. This raises most packs of popular cigarettes to 5 or 6 dollars. Now my friends resort to importing cigarettes for far less money, sometimes it is between states and some of them import them internationally, and actually now prefer the international ones because they are smoother they say, but I digress. Personally I disagree with this idea to tax online sales but I guess that deals mostly with me being a libertarian and wanting peace, a small military, and a small government.
Totally screwed up (Score:2)
Idea makes sense- good luck with implementation (Score:3, Interesting)
While it's true that the lack of sales tax has been responsible for much of the growth of mail-order and internet shops, Internet shops generally can offer things at lower prices than the local brick-and-mortar due to cost-cutting through automation and larger volumes of merchandise. In addition, while some people may find that their local shops are once again competitive for some of their in-stock items, Internet shops are able to offer a much wider variety of stock. Closing the loophole wouldn't, in and of itself, kill (or even seriously maim) e-commerce. Anybody who tells you so is just whining about the possibility of being required to actually be honest about their taxes.
The thing to worry about is the implementation. If the states can put together an implementation which can be relied on and trusted by all three sides (net shop, state gov't, consumer) and is practically faultproof, good for them. However, if they try to require a system and sysadmins can't trust it/have to make concessions to be able to run it, it makes buisnesses and consumers very nervous about privacy, or it has a noticeable incidence of error, that could kill e-commerce (and/or backfire on the states and result in an astronomical number of "under-the-table" purchases).
Do states tax FedEx and UPS? (Score:5, Insightful)
So what it comes down to, the greedy state governments want more...big surprise.
Backwards Government (Score:5, Informative)
I dread this. (Score:4, Interesting)
Do you know how many people don't know how to figure out how to add 6.5% on an order? How many times a day I have to call confused grandmas because of short checks?!?
I'm getting aggravated already just thinking about this. This is going to be hell for us. It's no wonder there's a big jar of Advil available for everyone in the office.
Hmm, New Hampshire (Score:3, Interesting)
Amazon.ca (Score:2)
Although I don't know what duties and such might be...
Time for Another Tea Party (Score:5, Interesting)
If you have a chance, contact your local and state representatives and let them know that this is the worst thing you've heard of. Otherwise, we'll all be screwed.
I guess that means that... (Score:2, Funny)
No new taxes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Taxing people just reduces how much money they can spend in our economic system...It keeps them from going out to McDonalds and instead keeps them inside cooking $1.50 TV Dinners.
Do you know what happens when you over-tax people? You piss them off. Do you know what happens when those you're taxing realise that they're pissed and they don't like your taxes? They throw all your fucking tea into the harbor and do a happy dance because your regime is about to crumble.
sounds like fun (Score:5, Interesting)
So lets enumerate a typical pay check on a typical day...
Federal Income Tax (unconstitutional BTW)
Unemployment Tax
Soc Sec. tax
medicaid tax
State Income Tax (likewise)
Gas Tax
Cigarette Tax
Excise Taxes
Sales Taxes
Personal Property Tax
Prepared meals tax
highway tolls
FCC charges
The thing I find troubling, almost ironic with almost every tax, especially sales taxes, is that I'm paying these taxes with income that has already been taxed. WTF.
And what do I get for the 50% of my income that goes to the government??
I get to wait in a long line at the supermarket while DaSheeki sorts her grocieries in 3 separate piles... one for WIC, one for Food Stamps, and one for cigarettes (which she purchases with a $100 bill). What a pleasure that can be.
I get to have my annual IRS harassment.
I get to have my annual BMV harassment.
Can anybody name one thing besides internet (mail order) sales that IS NOT taxed? Bueller?
How many of you gainfully employed lemmings actually study your pay stub every time you get paid, and identify the amount of money the government stole from you that week?
What are you going to do about it?
Re:sounds like fun (Score:4, Insightful)
Last year, I grossed $58,624, of which I paid $39,675 (67.7%) in taxes. I tracked and accumulated totals for the following taxes:
Federal Income Tax
Pennsylvania State Income Tax
Social Security Tax
Unemployment Tax
Medicare Tax
PA State Sales Tax
PA State Gasoline Tax
Gasoline Taxes in Other States (Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, New Jersey, New York)
Home Heating Oil Tax
Federal Gasoline Tax
Federal, State, and Local Utility Taxes
FCC Line Charges on my Phone
Taxes on my Cell Phones
Taxes on my DSL Line
Excise taxes on Electricity, Gas, and Water
Upper Dublin Township Wage Tax
Sales Taxes in other States (Michigan, Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina)
PA State Turnpike Tax (Tolls)
Tolls in other states (Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Ohio)
Georgia Automobile Ad Valorem Tax (Property Tax)
PA Automobile Lease Tax
These reflect itemized taxes that I was made aware of on receipts or was able to find explicit information on. This list does NOT include hidden taxes rolled into the cost of items purchased, leased, or rented, by the merchant (like the property tax on the house I'm renting).
We're all being taxed into oblivion, and nobody cares enough to do anything about it. Of course, part of the problem is that there are no checks and balances in government. We have a government that is completely out of control - there are too many layers of abstraction - too many levels of government (Federal, State, County, Township, Locale) that have the authority to levy fees and taxes. We've basically been suckered into communism without even realizing it.
Voters need to understand the most politicians are lawyers, and therefore liars, and will not do anything that is not self-serving of the government from which they derive their power.
Re:sounds like fun (Score:3, Interesting)
You'll spend a while just to find out what some taxes are (like fuel and oil), and whether or not some charges you pay on things like utilities are indeed taxes. What you consider to be a tax is completely up to you. Some might consider the FCC line charge on a phone line to be a tax, but others may not.
Unfortunately, I have not spent the time to come up with a "streamlined" way of doing it. Making this a daily 10 minute task is probably the easiest. Keeping a spreadsheet (paper or electronic) with a column for each tax is appropriate - as you pay new taxes, you simply add new columns.
Pay careful attention to the method you use to be sure you don't count a tax twice, or not at all. Do not use your withholding to compute your income tax - use the actual figure from your tax return in the spring.
Ask the gas station attendant to break down how much of your fuel purchase went to various taxes. They are usually willing to help you out if they're not too busy.
On your utility bills, include any taxes, or charges levied by any government, whether federal or local. Those are taxes in my book.
When you pay tolls, always ask for a receipt. I use EZ-Pass so it's simple for me to keep track of them.
When you buy things online, be sure you notice whether or not you were charged sales or other taxes. If you buy something from abcxyz.com, and they have a business entity in your state, they are required to collect tax for that state.
I'm not going to publish my exact figures because god only knows what someone might be able to infer from that information. But, I urge you to try this yourself for just one month, and you'll be horrified at how much you actually pay in taxes. Just be judicious and pay attention and you won't miss any of them.
Here's an interesting mental exercise on income taxes:
All people involved are in the 28% tax bracket and are just regular schmucks like you and me
1) Person A pays waitress B $1.00 as a tip
2) Waitress B then pays Person C that $1.00 to wash her windows
3) Person C then pays Person D that same $1.00 to do something else
and so on and so forth until
25) person Y pays person Z to cut her toenails
26) person Z pays person A that $1.00 to jump in place for 4 minutes
26 transactions, all taxable - the IRS would collect $7.28 on that $1.00 that floated around if it felt it was worth the time...
Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes (Score:5, Interesting)
No Taxation without Representation. (Score:3, Informative)
If you pay sales tax to a state that you don't live in, in the form of Internet taxes, how can you benefit from the tax? The American Revolution started because of this!
Start here:
http://www.netcaucus.org/books/taxation200
An Interesting fact:
So where the hell does the money go?
Read this:
http://www.netcaucus.org/books/taxation200
Re:This might be un-populare (Score:5, Informative)
Mail order doesn't have to pay sales tax. Ever notice that when you order something from a catalog it says something like "$STATE residents must pay $PERCENTAGE sales tax", where $STATE is the state where the busines is located?
Out of state residents pay nothing. In theory they're supposed to submit a report and pay taxes to their own state. In practice, no one ever does this.
Re:This might be un-populare (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Fill out the online order form, print it, fax it. .
2) Fill out the online order form, print it, mail it.
3) Fill out the online order form, call the 800 number, quote the order reference number, provide payment and shipping details over the phone
Which begs the question: suppose I email an order? Is that close enough to "mail order" to escape the tax?
IANAL, but I'm sure a bunch of 'em will make $$ on answering the above question...
Re:This might be un-populare (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, chief, the Internet isn't different from mail order. There's a little thing called the US Constitution which specifically prohibits states taxing interstate commerce. The idea was to avoid having each state do exactly what the US as a whole does, i.e., use tarifs to implement protectionist policy.
No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another
Re:This might be un-populare (Score:2)
the physical stuff is still delivered to you
via country's roads, space & stuff, and so
you have no argument.
Re:This might be un-populare (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This might be un-populare (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just an example. I know there are other taxes besides sales tax and income tax. But, in the end, the government will get money from you one way or another. They skim it from everywhere.
Nothing is certain but death and taxes.
Re:not all bad news (Score:2, Funny)
I don't know if I would trust these so-called republics!
Re:not all bad news (Score:4, Insightful)
This is mainly a tax on working class families.
Republicans only care about tax cuts to the wealthy families and corporations.
You do realize the republicans hand out more money in corporate welfare in one year than all the welfare moms get in probably 10 years?
Remember the last bush? "Read my lips no new taxes" haha and then we had many new taxes. haha, he didn't get reelected.
Anyways you think the extra 50 billion to defense spending and the deptartment of homeland security and the war in iraq are just gonna pay for themselves??
Well they can always take money of the public schools and spend it on bombs instead of rasing taxes.
Do you think exxon-mobile and haliburton corp are gonna be paying for the war in iraq? no, that'll be our tax dollars getting pissed down the toilet. But who will profit, oh ya thats right exxon-mobile and haliburton.
Wouldn't it be easier and cost a lot less human lives to just take our taxes and put them directly in dick cheneys pocket instead of having to do this whole war in iraq production...sheesh...