Sun To Sell Linux PCs 424
Rubbersoul writes "Reuters.com is reporting that in "a bid to undermine arch-rival Microsoft Corp" Sun is going to jump into selling low cost Linux PCs. The article is a bit low on technical details, but is interesting none the less. Also if you take this new news with a story from yesterday about Sun pushing StarOffice for schools around the world, you really start to get an idea that sun wants to beat MS like a red headed step child ..." An editorial in the WorldTechTribute argues that Sun's education-market giveaway is exactly the sort of behavior that Microsoft has been attacked for in the past.
low cost? (Score:2, Interesting)
smart card (Score:2)
its not really all that hard and they get the margins by putting on a smart card reader on it and asking you to buy a BIG SUN server to run your web portal and sign on DB
which makes sense because you where running you NIS+ on a SUN anyway and now you want to upgrade to liberty (-;
regards
John Jones
Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:5, Insightful)
What compelling reason is there to buy a Sun box over a the umpteen beige box vendors, IBM, Compaq, Dell, etc? Linux is only part of a low-priced solution. Does Sun think they can make a box cheaper than Dell?
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:2)
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:2)
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, Sun has not had to cut a deal with Microsoft in order to remain in business. If there's money to be made (different question entirely) from "major vendor" boxes for running Linux, Sun's in a position to exploit it. The "umteen vendors" have all sold their first-born to Bill.
Yes, you can buy no-name, but some people need/want to buy name-brand and Sun is a name-brand that is conveniently immune to Microsoft's interference.
Huh? (Score:2)
"Selling out" to Microsoft hasn't exactly hurt Dell, whose market cap is nearly seven times that of Sun's.
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:2)
If you look at the technology they are working on, they seem to be at odds with themselves. They are developing cross platform software, and they are giving it away mostly for free, while they are trying to make money on selling a specific hardware platform.
Their software model, by most accounts makes it harder for them to differentiate their hardware. Their strategy is really the "get microsoft" approach, and they seem to be little concerned about the long term implications of their choices on their own business.
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:2)
Oh wait, I'm thinking of SGI ;-)
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:5, Insightful)
I love Linux. I started using it 9 years ago, almost to the day. Yet, one of my major headaches in my job is answering questions from people who are trying to take advantage of the superiour OS, but don't have the background to make it work.If it were a defined platform, the user would have set the box on his desk, followed the instructions, and been up and running, and I could go right in and tweak things like NIS and automount, instead of starting from scratch on each box.
Distribution, labor, materials costs (Score:2)
And what does Windows XP have to do with it? I'm talking about the cost for Dell or Sun to produce a linux box, in which case neither pays for XP.
Re:Distribution, labor, materials costs (Score:2)
The problem is that Dell can't produce a Linux box. They can't afford to damage their relationship with Microsoft. Sun has no relationship with Microsoft.
Also, I doubt that Dell gets much better prices from Taiwanese motherboard manufacturers than Sun could. The market is unbelievably competitive and there just isn't that much room for deal-making.
Re:Good for linux(?), probably not good for Sun (Score:2)
Uh, lets see, sales??
I'm willing to concede my point if you can provide a statistic for their SunRay boxes that isn't asymptotically approaching zero.
Hmm.. (Score:4, Insightful)
"argues that Sun's education-market giveaway is exactly the sort of behavior that Microsoft has been attacked for in the past.:
A few differences:- Sun has not been ruled a monopoly
- Sun is not trying to give away free things to schools as a sanction to being ruled a monopoly
Re:Hmm.. (Score:2)
Oh my god, you're a functional business!
You Bastards!!
istroll(parent) (Score:2)
Yeah, except for the two facts you ignored in the post (all of it!) to which you were ostensibly responding.
Troll.
Re:Hmm.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hmm.. (Score:2)
Sun giving away StarOffice for education is more of a public relations ploy than anything else.
The vast majority of StarOffice code is actually the OpenOffice base, which is free to _anyone_? All that comes extra with StarOffice is a few fragments of functionality that can't be distributed as open source because it is owned by companies other than Sun.
IE, on the other hand, was (and is) an entirely closed source base that cannot be obtained (legally) from anywhere except Microsoft and it's partners.
It's also important to note that "free" IE is only available for download to run on systems running Microsoft's own OS products, which are _not_ free. If WinXX were free, and Microsoft were giving away IE to educational groups but charging the general public, you would have a fair comparison, but as it stands your comparison is just a red herring.
Re:Hmm.. (Score:2)
The devil is in the details (Score:3)
When donating GPL'd software (Linux), or software which is based on well documented and open file formats (StarOffice) that can be read by GPL'd software (OpenOffice), you are making a donation which has no strings attached. It's a very different thing.
SUNW getting creamed (Score:2)
Hmmm, I think it's a hopeless cause for them.
Getting into the education market is putting them between two highly competitive companies: Apple and Microsoft. Additionally, they're trying to get into the cheap pc market and compete against eMachines, Dell, Gateway, etc.?
Sounds to me like they feel left out and are trying desparately to get their stock price out of the gutter without any original ideas.
It's competing against IBM (Score:2, Insightful)
for contracts where they supply a server and then N cheap boxes, i.e. glorified terminals, running something or other.
Basically it's the Sun Network Computer except now it runs linux and it has email and word processor, and so the people with them don't feel like they were given the gimpiest computers.
Re:SUNW getting creamed (Score:2, Interesting)
Excellent and growing market share in the Unix and enterprise server market, have just released an excellent little Linux server, have clear differentiation over the Linux story that other vendors push, fantastic developer support and great Unix experience, with all the Unix expertise and services that make big, worldwide companies buy from large vendors like Sun.
Sun is more than just hardware. You need people to advise, set up install. I doubt these low end Linux PCs are aimed at the general consumer, but at the customers coming to people like Sun and saying 'help us get rid of Microsoft on the desktop'. Sun Ray are often a good solution, particularly for call centres and similar enviornments.
Think of a large company with 10000 PCs, that is seriously considering a move to Linux on the desktop. If they're going to do it, they need to do it through a big vendor, who is more than just a box shifter (Dell) or a vendor who backs off their support to tiny companies like Suse (IBM).
This is a market Sun need to be in, because if they don't sell the kit, someone else will.
First on topic post!!! (Score:2, Funny)
If Sun put CowBoyNeal's version of Wine, running on Foobar Linux, under the Bochs emulator, which is actually running on Plan-9, installed on an ESDI hard disk, with no PCI bus, but EISA instead, and 30-pin SIMMs, and everything installed via a PERTEC interface tape drive, then it won't be very successful.
I just wonder which option they will go for. Unfortunely, the second option seems to be the preferable choice for a lot of system builders who ship Linux!
Level playing field (Score:5, Insightful)
Moreover, what is Sun talking about giving away here? Linux machines? Java tools? StarOffice? Sun isn't exactly the only provider of such technology, so even if the giveaways propel adoption of these technologies, their open nature means that this won't necessarily translate back to their bottom line. On the other hand, for every PC Microsoft gives away it'll be running Windows [money back to themselves], it'll probably be running Office [money back to themselves], and maybe it'll have Visual Studio [money back to themselves]. None of these are open, none of these have significant competition. If they get people using such technology, there's only one vendor supplying it.
Please compare Apples to Apples or, in this case, Suns to Suns.
Re:Level playing field (Score:2, Interesting)
Too bad sites can't be moderated as -1 troll... :-)
Re:Level playing field (Score:4, Interesting)
StarOffice was already free for educational institutions, site liscence and all. We love it here and more and more of our people are using it. It costs us less to deploy each copy, both monetarily and time-wise.
If you dig around the educational parts of Sun's website you'll find much of their sofware is already very cheap for schools.
Re:Level playing field (Score:3, Funny)
Somewhere during the early to mid 1990's...
Salesman: I'm sorry Principal Cleaver, I can't donate any more copies of Windows for your school.
Principal: Why? Last week you set up Jefferson High with a new computing lab!
Salesman: That was last week. This morning some lady in Colorado purchased Windows. That took us over some arbitrary number of users, and now we're a monopoly. We can't do any good deeds anymore. You must now pay full price for Windows because our CEO's wallet is getting thin.
Re:Level playing field (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Level playing field (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with Windows give-aways is that they close off other avenues of computer knowledge that a person might otherwise find. For instance, Windows uses its own terminology in many places for no good reason (for instance, calling hyperlinks "shortcuts"). I feel this is a specific attempt to miseducate people so they have difficulties with other environments.
Other companies do this too. AOL does it all the time, crippling their users understanding of how the internet works (while pretending it's because they want to make the internet easier). Many companies use binary formats meant to trap data. The MS Visual development tools trap developers, but a lot of other development environments have tried to do the same thing. There was a time when Troll Tech was using Qt in the same way (though they've thankfully reformed). Maybe this is a form of "leveraging", but I don't keep up on the subtleties of business lingo.
When someone gives away a product like this, it is not charity. It is just a loss-leader (and with software, there often isn't any real loss involved). It doesn't matter if you are a monopoly or not -- a loss-leader isn't charity, and the receiver should be suspicious. Microsoft receives extra scrutiny, because they have sinister intentions (as has been evidenced many times over). Sun can be sinister too -- their management of Java in particular, but that could certainly extend into other areas.
But maybe not. I don't think StarOffice is a loss-leader, nor much of Solaris (it is too similar to other Unices). They may be looking solely for goodwill, or they may be competing with Microsoft -- they can compete through giving without committing the same sins.
Who wants this? (Score:2)
Sun needs to focus their attention on one of their strong suites, Java. To me, that is there best bet to stay competitive with Microsoft. Maybe look at making portions of Java OpenSource, or as they have already pledged, take some of this effort and use it to help the OpenSource community in other fashions.
Re:Who wants this? (Score:2)
Hey, great idea! Sun can stay profitable by bloody well giving away all of their intellectual property. You should be in business, Xafloc.
Cheaper then what? (Score:2)
No money in hardware? (Score:2)
And come to think of it, so does Sun, to a large extent, with their servers.
Re:No money in hardware? (Score:2)
Apple [cnn.com] and Sun [cnn.com] are not worth investing in if you want to make a profit on your investment.
(Click on "5y" for a 5 year history of the stock prices for each)
Re:No money in hardware? (Score:2)
Apple and Sun are not worth investing in if you want to make a profit on your investment.
Looking at the last two years for Apple, they've actually been rolling acceptably in a predictable range. Furthermore, Apple's cash flow and marketshare have stayed solid and/or increased.
And keep in mind that the big drop you see in early to mid 2000 is a stock split... double the value of Apple Shares if you want them in pre-2000 terms. Suddenly the last 5 years don't look so bad. And even the last two don't look so bad if you compare them to other tech companies.
Now, Sun, I can't speak to...
Re:No money in hardware? (Score:2)
Repeat after me: An ebbing tide lowers all boats.
Apple's actually doing pretty well, profit-wise.
Re:Cheaper then what? (Score:3, Interesting)
If Apple got into the PC business, or if Sun got into the PC business, they'd find themselves out of business real quick. Just look at SGI for evidence of this.
That editorial gets it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Monopolies have to play by different rules. That's a part of U.S. antitrust law. Things that are perfectly legal for other companies are illegal for monopolies.
Sun didn't criticize MS for trying to create a monopoly by giving away IE. Sun criticized them for trying to illegally exploit their existing monopoly to build another one.
Wonder what they will be like? (Score:2)
The Cobalt Cube looked very cool in their little blue cases. I did not see in the article if they were going to be intel or sparc based.
I am not going into the basic Wintel bashing stuff but I hope it does well simply because it gives consumers more choices even if those products are focused primarily at educational and corporate users.
_______________________________________________
Microsoft is Laughing (Score:3, Insightful)
You are absolutely correct (Score:5, Interesting)
Scott had the opportunity to make nice a few years back like Steve Jobs, and just accept the inevitable - Bill controls a huge swath of the computing market. Admitting such helped keep Apple in the game, and it got some good MS software on OSX quickly.
I'm not saying that MS and Sun would exactly be in bed today had Scott made nice, but certainly a less adversarial approach could have kept Sun out of the crosshairs.
SUNW tanks (Score:2)
No kidding. SUNW went under 3 today and their market cap is under $10B for the first time in over 5 years.
SUN's motivation (Score:2)
"The primary motivator for enterprise customers (to buy Sun Linux desktops) will be reduction in costs and freedom from Microsoft," Sun said in a statement on the user conference.
The way this is worded just has an elitest anti-MS sentiment about it. "Freedom from Microsoft". Why should the primary motivator be to give users freedom from MS? One thing that has always bothered me about SUN is that they just can't get away from slamming MS all the time. Sure, it might be appealing to a lot of anti-MS people, but most Joe Blow consumers aren't going to buy a PC just because they want to be "free from Microsoft".
If they would have approached this new product with something like "offering consumers more choices and better prices" I would be much more excited about it. At first I thought that is honestly what they were trying to do, but then I read the statement mentioned above. Now I read it as "we don't care about the consumer, we just want to take marketshare away from MS's customers". Just a perception thing, but I think it has merit. I'm sure I won't be the only one to pick up on this.
Re:SUN's motivation (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it would be better translated as freedom from Microsoft Licensing.
I know the company I work for has balked about the new scheme, and we are upgrading our existing machines (maintaing the old licenses) instead of buying new hardware.
The new MS Licensing finally got it through to the people controlling the company finances that we are entirely too dependent on proprietary software. We are looking into Linux to replace our basic Office computers at this point. We still need MS for CAD, though... :-(
Re:SUN's motivation (Score:2)
<sarcasm>Because after all, when a significant segment of your income is your support services organization, you definitely want to get rid of them.</sarcasm>
Or do you really think the patchwork quilt of Linux is easier to support than the relatively unified OS that is Solaris? I've been supporting Solaris for Sun for 7 years, and playing with Linux at home almost as long, and I have to say that Solaris' integration is much more cohesive in my opinion. And that makes it easier to support.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Repeat after me... (Score:2)
Market behavior with is legal and ethical by a company in a competitive market is neither legal nor ethical for a monopolist.
Other Columns by Scott McCollum (Score:5, Informative)
New Linux virus creates peer-to-peer terror network [worldtechtribune.com]
HP finally fires their anti-business business strategist for Linux [worldtechtribune.com]
Disbanding the RIAA will turn the music scene into 17th Century Europe [worldtechtribune.com]
The GPL, open source freedoms and the Cold War [worldtechtribune.com]
This last article has this classic quote:
The small minority of geeks who adhere to the cultish mindset of the GPL and Linux will definitely take offense to this, but there is no reasoning with someone who blindly follows the precepts of open source and the GPL ...those people will never understand why the NSA would reject the GPL. For rational people, I can sum up exactly why the GPL is not and in its current form will never be useful for the NSA or any similar enterprise: "Open" is the exact opposite of "secure."
Other Columns in WorldTechTribune (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, maybe not quite that bad, but close. Here are some samples from their articles:
"What makes open source the secure, stable and elegant software panacea open source cultists claim it is? ... say you are the IT director at a bank and you buy into the Linux is stable, secure and bulletproof hype. ... Welcome to the lazy, cut-and-paste world of open source 'innovation' where people who should be smart enough to know better still think you can get something for nothing. It would be humorous if it wasn't so pathetic..." ("Thanks to open source methods, only 2 out of 500 job-hunting programmers pass skills test" [216.26.163.62])
"The outcry against Palladium doesn't really stem from a concern about your privacy, but more from a vocal minority who wish to impose their anarchistic schemes onto us under the guise of 'freedom' and 'liberty.'" ("Microsoft's Palladium transforms Internet from Wild West to suburban neighborhood" [worldtechtribune.com])
"many customers who purchased those inherently more stable, secure and virus-proof Linux servers are probably wishing there was a multi-million dollar virus protection industry to help them out." ("New Linux virus creates peer-to-peer terror network" [worldtechtribune.com])
"The SE Linux project was developed during the Clinton administration ... NSA officials say their cyber security enhancements made for SE Linux have not only benefited the NSA, but because of the terms of the GPL have also strengthened the security architecture of computers used by malicious cyber terrorists around the world."
("NSA deputy director says 'never again' to Open Source" [worldtechtribune.com])
That last article is just hysterical. The NSA administrators, under pressure from Microsoft, stopped development on SELinux -- because Microsoft didn't like the fact that government-developed code was released freely under the GPL. Microsoft objected to the competition. WorldTechTribune is using all its quotes out of context, and pretending that the objection was concerning national security and terrorism. Amazing.
Re:Other Columns in WorldTechTribune (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Other Columns in WorldTechTribune (Score:5, Insightful)
Arguably, a PC running Windows is a platform that runs applications.
Unfortunately, Microsoft, due to undocumented API's, are able to do things with their software that ordinary windows developers like myself cannot. For example, if I were to write a spreadsheet application, chances are it would not perform as well as Excel in simple matters such as SCROLLING the window. (In fact, this is the case, try it yourself). So, that is an uneven playing field, in fact it's uneven whenever your application has to compete with a similar application from Microsoft (as I'm sure the Netscape guys would agree).
Linux, on the other hand, being Open Source and Free means that the "PC running Linux" platform for running applications means that no company can leverage the core OS to it's own advantage for very long. The competition among competing applications becomes "Who can write the best app" not "Can we keep up with Microsoft's undocumented API's". That is competition at it's finest, and the end result is better, faster, cheaper applications for consumers. The result of competing with Microsoft in a similar application space is usually sell out or die (Netscape is irrelevant now, Real is likely next, WordStar, Lotus, etc have all been crushed by MS Applications.)
So, as a conservative, and as an application developer, I would like nothing better then to see MS get it's ass handed to it by Linux. And yes, an acceptable alternative would be to open up the Windows codebase, but we all know it will be a cold day in hell before that happens.
The goal is for a truly level playing field in the software application market, on home and office desktops and servers. Linux is the way to have that level playing field. If getting Linux as the dominant platform on PC hardware takes Sun's help to do it by handing out free PC's running Linux to schools, that's fine with me. I seem to remember reading something about Red Hat doing the exact same thing, and I think it's a good idea.
But still, the goal remains an Open Source Operating System running on an Open Hardware specification as the market leader. It is a very good thing. Let the browser wars be fought by who writes the better browser, Mozilla or Opera (Or IE running on Linux). Let the desktop wars be fought by KDE and GNOME and anyone else. But nobody can leverage Linux to an uncompetitive advantage the way Microsoft can.
With that stated, it's easy for Conservatives to see that to truly free the market and allow innovation and competition to flourish, that unfortunately, Microsoft, the convicted monopolist, as it exists today, must cease to be.
Re:Other Columns in WorldTechTribune (Score:3, Funny)
So, as a conservative, and as an application developer, I would like nothing better then to see MS get it's ass handed to it by Linux. And yes, an acceptable alternative would be to open up the Windows codebase, but we all know it will be a cold day in hell before that happens.
So, do you think that vot[ing] for George W. Bush 3 times now (2 times for Texas Governor, and once for President.) has helped or hurt you to reach the first goal?
UNIX companies don't understand PC hardware.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I worked for SGI a few years ago (as an intern), just as they were introducing their PC strategy. They were coming out with (relatively) low-cost NT workstations with a proprietary graphics system (kicked ass at the time..), but were immediately stuck in a catch-22. They had high prices because they couldn't sell enough, and couldn't sell enough because of their high prices. SGI also tried selling server-ish PC boxes (with redundant power supplies, and multiple processors and stuff), but that lasted about a year as well, before it went away (at least I can't find it on their web page [sgi.com] anymore)
When people buy PC hardware, they expect to pay PC hardware prices. And they want support. And warranties.. There's just no money there...especially not the kind of money these companies are used to seeing.
If they're getting in to this to make money, then they're in trouble. If SUN is getting in to this to fight against MS, then great, but I don't think SUN has enough money to fight MS.
Re:UNIX companies don't understand PC hardware.. (Score:3, Informative)
So what's your point ? These boxes ought to be cheaper than Wondows PC's because the OS and Office suite on them is free.
And they want support. And warranties.
Are you claiming that Sun can't offer support and warranties ?
Why Sun? because competition is a wonderful thing. (Score:2, Insightful)
This move may or may not do anything for Sun's fortunes, but it's sure to keep IBM/Redhat awake at nights.This is a race to see which company is the "offical" supplier of linux desktop/workstation pc's, and that means more choice for you, and more opportunities for Linux growth.
Coal to newcastle? .... (Score:2)
of course selling penguins to Antartica is lost cause and even Sun wouldn't try that ....
Re:Coal to newcastle? .... (Score:2)
Are the penguins sexy?
Not necessarily a fair comparison (Score:2)
Microsoft using its desktop dominance to put IE in front of users before they have a chance to get Netscape is using dominance in one market to gain dominance in another. That's when a company uses a monopoly in a criminal manner.
Sun, on the other hand, is trying to gain share in a market where they have no leverage other than their product and the price they're willing to sell it at. They aren't leveraging their hardware products (AFAICT) to get people to use Star Office. They aren't using Solaris to push Star Office onto these companies. They are doing what any non-monopoly company would do when entering a new market: offering their products at a very low price (here, free) to encourage users to switch. The pay-off comes far, far down the line when Star Office (potentially) becomes a real player in the field of office software.
In short: Microsoft leverages OS dominance to gain browser dominance. Sun uses low price to gain a foothold in office productivity market. Not the same thing.
New York Times Report: Different Focus (Score:3, Informative)
The New Sun Ready to Push Linux as Alternative to Microsoft, emphasizes the push for Linux and StarOffice, without any mention of hardware. All of these articles are guessing what Sun is going to say tomorrow, when the offical announcement is to be made.
It's all about the bottom line (Score:3, Interesting)
Star Office was an attempt to undermine the very profitable Office suite. By pushing Linux machines, they do the same thing with the OS. They don't gain anything on this themselves - it's not their technology, it's just that they want to take away free money from MS.
Sun's likely strategy... (Score:2)
From where I'm sitting, Sun can't be about to push a load of cheap linux boxes out for the average user. That would be commercial suicide - the PC market is already too cut-throat for there to be any margins to work with.
Sun probably isn't that worried about getting a vast income from pushing StarOffice for schools either - the benefit to Sun from this initiative is that students will be familiar with StarOffice rather than MS Office.
Sun's likely push here is to move in and replace all those Windows boxes in places like call centres, POS terminals and sales rooms where a centralized server provides much of the grunt and the terminals actually don't do much. Being able to replace existing Windows installs with PC + Linux makes a lot of cost sense - network installs, locked down to prevent fiddling, with the needed apps either on the Linux machines or on a central (Solaris?) server is likely to be a winner on TCO.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
A word from the Red-Headed League (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A word from the Red-Headed League (Score:2)
Re:A word from the Red-Headed League (Score:2)
Newsflash: Sun Wants to Destroy Microsoft (Score:2)
Giving away StarOffice != giving away Windows (Score:5, Informative)
Let's all move Scott McCollum into our collective killfiles and move on, shall we? Furthermore, the key difference between Sun's donation and Microsoft's, besides the fact that Sun is not a monopoly, is that Sun has open sourced Star Office. To gloss over this little fact is typical for a professional troll like McCollum. While Star Office itself is not open, it's an open platform, and the differences between SO and OO are minor. So even if SO/OO were to become the standard, it would always be easy to move somewhere else if necessary (and you can bet someone will fork OO if Sun does something fishy).
The question is not who you can buy Solaris from (Score:2)
There is not only no monopoly but UNIX systems are available for free from multiple vendors.
Solaris is a *brand,* not an operating system per se, just as Ford and Chevy are both *cars.* Ford has a monopoly on the *trademark,* not the car.
KFG
Who is the stepchild? (Score:2)
Who exactally is the redheaded step child here? I just have this image of Sun as the little step brother madder than hell swinging at Microsoft that is holding the kid at arms length by the top of the head.
Hey! I'm a red-headed.... (Score:2)
.
Sun should focus on hardware and integration. (Score:3, Insightful)
Which Market Linux Will Hurt (Score:2)
From the Reuters article:
...sparking strong debate over which market [servers or desktops] Linux will hurt most.
Ouch... I don't think Linux will or has hurt either market. In fact, I think Linux has been good for the server market definately, and probably for the desktop market.
Someone should tell Reuters to watch their language, news services aren't supposed to be so biased.
Star Office (Score:2, Insightful)
FWIW, I tried OO after I gave up on KOffice. KDE in general doesn't care how many times you tell it to print US Letter-size, it insists on printing A4-size pages. (The KDE mailing lists are *not* the place to point out things that are broken - replies range from "you got the source, fix it yourself" to "go back to Windoze." There doesn't seem to be much interest in userland usability reports.)
So I tried AbiWord, it did US inches, great! But it has the same problem OO has, default printer is "lpr" and there's no way to change it to "lpr -P whateverdriver" and make it permanent. Which works OK for a semi-geek-literate like me, but requiring an average button-pusher to remember to add the -P stuff just doesn't cut it. It's amazing how many pages of garbage get printed if you forget it, too. Maybe some day Linux will be ready for prime-time in the US, but not today. Damn.
0wnage (Score:3, Insightful)
Right now Sun has the 20% software to fill 80% of people's needs. When users don't have to administer it themselves, just run it, Linux is not a bad system at all to deal with. GNOME is a very good desktop environment and there are plenty of apps to substitute the collection you're going to find on the typical computer lab PC. StarOffice is not a competitor to Office XP in many respects but it does serve the needs of most general users. StarOffice in a school would work just fine in most cases.
I'm suprised they didn't try this any earlier really. They've had their Blade systems out for a while now without much fanfare. Ray systems are the same way, they've been available for a while and aside from the initial rumbling when they were introduced nothing particularly impressive has been announced regarding them. Sun has managed in the past to get their foot in the door of many college CS departments because of Java development packages. Maybe now they are trying to get their head in the door by showing off some of their other products.
I think the only way this will really succeed is if the systems are priced very attractively and no one else comes out with a better Linux offering. All Sun needs in this situation to fail miserably is to have IBM or HP spit out some cheapo box with Linux on it. If they're not interested Apple could drop the price of the eMac down to $799 or less. There's a bunch of schools jumping all over eMacs at $1000, lowering the price would only increase the demand. I think Sun's bad timing could make them the losers in the not-Microsoft PC market.
why quote Scott McCollum? (Score:2)
Scott McCollum.... this is another person that really needs to be added to everyones ignore list.
The editorial mentioned-- wasn't worth mentioning (Score:5, Insightful)
First, Sun will forego the PC OEM deals for StarOffice 6 because Sun Microsystems' main revenue stream comes from their own PC sales.
This is in reference to SUN not getting together with companies like Dell and Gateway to put StarOffice on their machines. The first thing that got me, though, was that it says that SUN's main income is from their PC sales. Last time I checked, SUN doesn't make PCs. And, while they may start in the near future, they certainly don't have any revenue from it now.
After years of protestation and lawsuits against Microsoft giving away IE for free, is Sun hypocritically hoping to create an illegal monopoly of their own by giving StarOffice 6 to students for free?
Again, just because you do something that mirrors what Microsoft does, does not make you Microsoft. Giving away software does not make you a monopoly. Immoral business practices do. Besides, as the author tries to mention, SUN makes its money on hardware (not PC sales), similar to Apple. All they're trying to do is show people there's an alternative to the Wintel platform. They're trying to show people that you don't have to have a box running windows to be productive. That you can have a Linux box (that they'd love to sell you in a few quarters) and run StarOffice on it and be doing just fine. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with that. Another thing people need to remember is that there's a big difference between a non-monopoly business practices. If a non-monopoly says "If you don't put our software on all your machines, you can't put it on any, it doesn't matter, because the OEM has choices. When a monopoly does it, it is illegal, because the OEM has no real choice (go out of business?).
If the schools had actually purchased the software rather than acquired it for free, the deal adds up to a $5.7 billion (yes, billion with a "b") missed opportunity. That's $5.7 billion USD in sales that Sun will never see because they gave it away at a time when they don't need to be giving away $5.7 billion.
Oh come on, buddy. This is complete nonsense. While the numbers work out, it's meaningless. Software doesn't have intrinsic value. That's not like saying "I'm going to give away 100 cars." It's the same thing about trying to figure out the value of "pirated" software. You can't say you lost 40 millions dollars, because one million people "pirated" your $40 software. It just doesn't work like that. These schools wouldn't have paid $5.7 billion for this software, so SUN didn't give away $5.7 billion.
Anyways, the editorial just goes on and on like this.. it's truly painful to read.
Does Sun have an idea? (Score:2)
I really hope they aren't biting off more than they can shew as nobody is going to buy a $1400-$1900 sun workstation as a "low cost PC"
but that said... I will pay a premium if it is in fact Sun hardware and not a gigabyte board +intel or AMD+other generic in a regular box with a sun logo stuck on it. I already have a "Silicon graphics workstation" that is like that (Yes I pryed a SGI logo and the name sticker off of the @home hardware that was getting chucked... and yes it's on my dual PIII workstation at home.)
If it's SUN then gimmie! if it's intel... you can keep it.
I'd buy one.. (Score:4, Insightful)
a) Sun cases look cool.. and trying to find decent looking and inexpensive cases in the UK seems to be fruitless.
b) The quality of the kit should be pretty good.. I have a Sun Blade 100 and that system is very well built and reliable.
c) Even though Sun are a big company I still appreciate what they do for individual users - so I'd feel like I was helping a bit to keep them afloat.
Sun needs a transition plan (Score:2)
Sun [sun.com] needs a transition plan to make migration from the low end Linux/x86 based desktops and servers [sun.com] to their Solaris [sun.com]/Sparc based high end workstations [sun.com] and enterprise servers [sun.com]. Otherwise they will not be able to bring as much sales up to the higher tier. There are two ways to do this. One is to run Solaris on x86 [slashdot.org] hardware as the middle tier. The other is to run Linux [ultralinux.org] on Sparc hardware as the middle tier. One of these approaches leaves Sun subject to the whims of another CPU maker [intel.com], which has it's own plans for 64-bit [intel.com] domination [slashdot.org]. The other leaves Sun subject to the whims of a huge open source software community [linux.org] and a few choices in Linux distributions [lwn.net] (such as Debian [debian.org], Mandrake [linux-mandrake.com], and SuSE [www.suse.de]) as well as FreeBSD [freebsd.org], NetBSD [netbsd.org], and OpenBSD [openbsd.org]. Which way do you think would be better for Sun?
Sun vs. WalMart (Score:2, Insightful)
First, Sun can't make low-end PCs themselves. If Sun makes it, it will cost too much. They have to outsource, in which case, they're a reseller adding cost without value. WalMart can deal with offshore manufacturers directly; they don't need Sun. Sun doesn't have a distribution channel for moving low-end boxes in volume; it probably costs their sales operation a few hundred dollars to sell and deliver anything. Sun isn't known as a consumer brand; they have no retail presence.
So what does Sun bring to the party? StarOffice?
Wednesday? (Score:2)
It's only early afternoon in SF but late afternoon seems weird for a product demo or press release. Apple, for example, seems to always have the keynote in the morning.
Here is the business plan: (Score:2, Funny)
- Sell Linux PCs at cost price and give away StarOffice
- ???
- Profit.
Sorry, couldn't resist.MS is a Monopoly--Sun is not. (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the difference, however, is that Microsoft is a judicially declared Monopoly, whereas Sun is not. So, the anti-competitive..nay...competitive behaviour of Sun is NOT on par with the same behaviour of Microsoft. This fact is one of the big reasons Microsoft fought such a declaration so hard--they kept saying, to the effect, "we're just competing in the marketplace."
From a certain perspective this actually may seem unfair to Microsoft, but remember that the determination that MS was a monopoly was based, in no small part, due to the illegal activities that they were engaged in to obtain/maintain an unfair market advantave. So, punitive actions are certainly justified to try to bring it back into line and even the competitive landscape--to give other companies such as Sun the opportunity to succeed that they were previously denied by Microsoft's behaviour.
Just my $0.02.
Re:Why Sun? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are no doubt quite capable of buying the parts for, and assembling, a custom PC. You can install and maintain a linux distribution.
The people who should buy from Sun are (and i quote) markets such as corporate call centers, government and schools. These are the sort of folks who don't have a clue how to run their PC's. More importantly, they don't want to have a clue how to run them either. They expect their computers to Just Work, and for someone to come fix it damn quick if it breaks.
This is exactly the sort of thing Sun excels at.
Best of luck to them.
Re:Why Sun? (Score:2, Funny)
But PCs are known quantities (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why Sun? Sun gives light... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Why Sun? Sun gives light... (Score:2)
smart cards baby (Score:3, Interesting)
The box's that Sun will sell have Smart Card readers in
this means that JavaCard
basically easy to setup and sign on with BIG SUN server's doing the web portal and sign on crypto
I would put a bet on it containing www [projectliberty.org] so everyone is happy includeing Visa who will send you more junk mail telling you are approved
regards
John Jones
Re:Sun's education-market giveaway (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Sun's education-market giveaway (Score:2)
The iMac sold quite well in the education market, enough for them to make the eMac.
Re:Sun Micro lays out recovery plan (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think Sun is trying to sell computers to home users, here. I think we need to be thinking about how Linux fits into their enterprise computing strategy.
Re:Sun Micro lays out recovery plan (Score:2)
Re:Sun Micro lays out recovery plan (Score:2)
Yes, Outlook is an absolutely necessary tool for many-- possibly even most-- companies. I make no statement about whether this is good or bad, but it's true anyway. If your company has an Exchange/Outlook system in place, and you try to deploy Linux on the desktop, you will end up wasting a fortune and then going back to Windows anyway.
Look at it this way: you have a system that works. Not just well, it works really well. That system depends on Exchange and Outlook. You then try to bring in something like Linux, where the best you can do is Evolution with their connector product. Which isn't very well at all, because the connector uses WebDAV instead of MAPI, meaning you have to do a significant amount of work to your server to even support the connector, and it doesn't support key features like journals or forms. So you end up with a system that sort-of works, except for the things that don't. Not to mention the fact that you have to spend another fortune training up your support staff to deal with two different operating systems and two entirely different sets of troubleshooting procedures. It's a waste of time and money.
It's cheaper to just maintain the status quo.
I assert to you that it will not be possible for anybody to build a desktop system that fits into the modern enterprise as well as a Windows system can. The Exchange-based enterprise is not perfect. It could be improved in lots of ways. The only way to get on the desktop of the typical enterprise is to come up with something significantly better than the combination of Windows desktops, Windows servers, Outlook, and Exchange. It hasn't happened so far. Maybe it will some day, but if that newer, better system comes from the "free" software world, I'll eat my shoe.
Oh, and to address your comment about viruses, in the past three years my company has not been affected by a single virus. Why? Because we run virus scanners where they're appropriate. No problem there. So associating Windows with viruses like they're intrinsically linked is just FUD in the most literal sense: you're trying to spread fear by relying on the uncertainty of your audience to plant the seeds of doubt.
Now if you'd said 'a decent GUI based file manager', that might have been different.
What file manager? Use Outlook's public folders. All the important data gets stored on secure servers, indexed for easy retrieval, and backed up every hour on the hour. File managers are obsolete, my friend. Most people just don't know it yet.
Re:Sun Micro lays out recovery plan (Score:2)
Re:It would need to have a really cool case.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Add to that that I expect that Sun will be looking to "blur the lines" somewhat between Sun-Linux and Solaris - I wouldn't be at all surprised to see migration tools and cross-over applications as part of the Sun distribution - don't forget that Solaris has had "lxrun" for as long as I can remember.
Re:Sun's not a monopoly! (Score:2)
Re:FUD (Score:2)
Re:Sun? Low cost (Score:3, Informative)
Where have you been?
SPARC/Solaris Servers from Sun start at $995.
SPARC/Solaris Workstations from Sun start at $995.