IBM To Demo Crusoe Thinkpad 129
CoreDump writes: "Just ran across this story at News.com about IBM announcing that they will demo a Crusoe based Thinkpad at PC Expo. This is what I've been waiting for, not an "appliance", but an actual full-blown system that can be used every day. They aren't planning products until the fourth quarter, but I know what *I* want to find under the tree on Dec. 25th.
"
That's not a terribly smart idea (Score:1)
All it takes is one little thief to ruin your dreams.
Also unless I am very much mistaken laptops are very, very, very prone to breakage from various facets of handling thermal expansion/contraction as well as almost never being able to upgrade.
Now if you have a choice of burning $5,000+ USD or buying one then pehraps...
Re:machine code alterations (Score:1)
Re:Acer as well? (Score:2)
--
Re:Something like this existed. (Score:1)
I suspect the reason we haven't seen something like that is that the KVM switches that are out there are priced sky high to begin with because they're being sold to big organizations and they're marketed party under the rubric of saving you money because you don't need to buy extra monitors, and anybody selling you something that lets you save money charges you in anticipation of getting some of that money out of you..
Re:machine code alterations (Score:2)
I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of work would have to go in to it because of the difference in architecture between the PPC and x86 - it'd be like redoing it for MIPS or something
OT: Cruesoe and Java (Score:2)
Re:Modern assembly language introductory programmi (Score:1)
Hope that helps!
I am slightly worried (Score:1)
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:1)
So much for cut and paste. (Or any more sophisticated inter-app communication.)
Don't worry, that's nothing that can't be implemented with a few hours of hacking...
Re:Still Skeptical (Score:1)
You can compile the vast majority of free software out there for it.
Re:But is it worth it? (Score:1)
Re:Still Skeptical (Score:2)
barrier to my sitting at my breakfast table
reading
breakfast table.
A plain-old ix86 laptop with a Lucent Wavelan
card does the job just fine. I can see Crusoe
as a lower-power chip, or a higher performance
chip (?), or a chip that can pretend to be various
other CPU types. It could even be the base of a
cheaper device, but most of those costs (e.g.
display) are outside the CPU.
But, as for wireless computing, it's already here.
Of Course! (Score:1)
Re:Still Skeptical (Score:1)
--Terrence
www.umr.edu/~tcaton
Does that really work? (Score:1)
In 20 years people will laugh... (Score:4)
I can't wait.
-Adam
There's so much bad in the best of us
and so much good in the worst of us
that it doesn't behoove any of us
to talk about the rest of us.
Oh, YYYYYYESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! (Score:1)
Linux runs on it like a DREAM....it's fast....my system stats are only a 266 mobile MMX processor, 64 Meg RAM, and 2.1 GB HDD, but in some ways it's faster than my dual-400 at home. And with the double-life battery I currently get 2-2.5 hours just on the battery. With that, plus the suspend-to-disk feature, my laptop has an uptime longer than my tower (days...Alabama Power must've tripped over a power line on Sunday).
Just imagine the power-saving features of the Crusoe applied to that
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
Re:IBM DOESN'T GET IT (Score:1)
IMO I think that IBM is working toward supporting the open source community from a HW compatibility perspective, most of the rest is hype to keep their name in the open source trades. Hopefully their claims will come to something and they will provide the open source community with more than just talk. However I don't think they will ever acheive the open Source Natalie like -osm would like.
Intel is outsourcing the Pentium-SX chip. (Score:4)
These days, Intel doesn't have the time, nor the resources, to engage in such operations themselves. They've got Xeons to pump out. So they've partnered with Transmeta, who are proud to introduce . . .
Crusoe- also known as . . .
. . . the Pentium-SX ! ! !
For those light duty machines ladies often carry in their handbags. Truly the derringer of microprocessors.
Re:Moore's law (Score:1)
iBook (Score:1)
I guess I'm being skeptical here, but I won't buy into this whole Crusoe/Transmeta idea until I can sit at my breakfast table reading /. using wireless LAN.
You can do this today with an iBook or Powerbook and Apple's AirPort technology.
-jimbo
Re:Moore's law (Score:2)
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
"Internet Appliance" (Score:2)
I am not as much pro-linux anti-wintel as I am pro competition. Have you priced laptops recently? I am not an ardent AMD fan but look at what a little competition has done to the desktop CPU market.
Intel PIII-933mhz $874.00 down $386.00 overnight because of AMD's 1Ghz T-bird release.
drop the price of every laptop by $386.00 because of transmetta and laptop prices start looking a little more sane.
I just don't understand why a small hot startup would want to avoid doing business with the gentle giant M$ (Sarcasm).
great (Score:1)
Re:But is it worth it? (Score:1)
Did you read their criticism of existing benchmarks instead? There's no point in running a spec95 because it won't tell you how the system runs when you go to use it.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Re:Still Skeptical (Score:1)
Try EPOC/ARM then - from Symbian [symbian.com]. Built in MS-synchronisable Office and email progs. No Netscape but Opera [operasoftware.com] is good enough. And has Java support.
How's this [psion.com] for a tasty (albeit expensive) "net appliance".
(There is life beyond MS and Linux ...)
Regards, Ralph.
Re:Inexpensive Thinkpads? (Score:2)
Of course the really cool ones are always more expensive, but they've gone down quite a bit. A few years back, the state of the art 750 series was pushing $ 7,000. Now the closest equivalent (with the great 15" screen) is pushing $4,000, not bad relatively speaking.
You can get reconditioned ThinkPads at ubid.com - I bought my 770Z (366mhz, 128mb ram [upgraded to 256], 14gb hard drive, 1280x1024 active matrix screen]) for $ 2,750. I've had it a few months and I'm very pleased with it - the display has perfectly crisp tiny characters that are just perfect for the programmer who likes having lots of information in little space.
But I still want the new titatium case and the spiffier higher resolution screens
D
----
And you believe him why? (Score:2)
Re:great (Score:1)
B1ood
Re:great (Score:1)
For more information, hit their homepage [transmeta.com].
What rock've you been hiding under?
Kean
http://home.san.rr.com/dlacey/
Re:machine code alterations (Score:1)
bring on the micro fuel cells (Score:1)
Re:I'm getting tired of this (Score:1)
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? If you've got a multi-billion dollar fab in your backyard, let me know... Otherwise, I'm fairly sure that the only people in the world who could build "themselves" a Transmeta ship are Intel and AMD (and IBM, but they are already paid to do that.) I mean, I'm sure Andy Grove would do a backflip if they did this, but it wouldn't do the rest of us a damn bit of good. Stupid troll... go work on your skillz and then come back when you can be at least funny...
~luge
Even better... (Score:2)
This would probably not be practical without some special hardware features, but it would be cool.
Re:Still Skeptical (Score:2)
I frequently do this with a laptop and a WebGear Aviator 2.4 Ghz spread spectrum network card. This has something like 1.2Mbit/sec bandwith, which is plenty for Internet, and excellent range -- hundreds of feet. It is also supported in the recent Linux kernels, so it is very easy to get running.
The main limitation on the client side is the form factor, a rather largish PC card; this won't fit in most PDAs. The last PDA I've seen with a full fledged PC card slot was the Newton. Too bad it was discontinued, the Newton with this card would rock.
Re:Something like this existed. (Score:1)
the uberplatform is like an urban myth that surfaces every five years, always in different forms but with the same ultimate end.
hard drives are also a heat and power problem (Score:1)
Intel owns StrongARM? (Score:1)
As far as I know, StrongARM chips are not widely used. (I know only of a few PDA's.) The chips that are in most cell phones are other ARM implementations, which are manufactured by a variety of people under licence from ARM, which is purely an intellectual property/design company.
ARM is an independent company, though I would not be surprised to discover that Intel owns some stock.
XOX DOM
Why not other architectures? (Score:1)
So why is Crusoe important? Because it can run x86 code, and hence Windows. That's the biggest reason.
And of course, Crusoe is just damn cool...
XOX DOM
Re:A desktop please? (Score:1)
I mean, really. These are just FPGA chips with fancy marketing bolted on (**). Without Linus Torvalds in a glass display case in the lobby of corporate headquarters, nobody would even be paying attention to Transmeta.
(** and a few patents to make it seem special. Oh, that's right. We're supposed to hate companies that patent things....)
Re:No, you don't get it. (Score:1)
Dynamic change of code? (Score:1)
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:1)
Hell, I'd settle for a KVM switch with a really basic windowing system or video tricks built into it -- it'd be nice to tile a scrunched version of four displays onto one 21" display, especially when you're trying to type obscure text from one system into another and have to switch displays constantly.
Re:No, you don't get it. (Score:1)
Maybe I'll have to browse it tomorrow at work in Netscape on the Solaris box in the lab (using Exceed, of course, the ultimate window manager).
Re:"Action. Not a bag a mouth" (Score:1)
I've only actually read this on a couple of places online (one of them being Slashdot), but I think it answers your "why doesn't IBM announce things 2 or 3 years before their ship date?" question. The answer is that, a long time ago, when the earth's crust was cooling and computers used 640k RAM (maybe more recent than that. Don't remember the exact date), IBM controlled the computer world. Basically, everything that was anything was IBM. People complained, the government waded in, and an antitrust suit was launched. One of the penalties IBM got slapped with was not being able to "pre-announce" products.
Look what a productive and friendly company they've turned into. Now, we can just hope the current lawsuit does the same to Microsoft.
Note that this is completely from memory, and all data was gathered through online sources. So if its wrong, don't hesitate to correct me.
-RickHunter
Re:George Soros. (Score:1)
Re:SATAN is here! (Score:1)
WWW is the mark of the beast!
So get off the Internet.
Re:George Soros. (Score:1)
Clue not needed, the only time I've _ever_ heard of Soros is to do with the accusations that he sells down currencies, he's basically regarded as a "not-nice person" here in the Pacific, especially in Malaysia, Indonesia and here in New Zealand. Currency speculators tend to be dirty words in small currency countries. Especially since a billion dollars being suddenly pulled from your currency has a drastic effect on its value, and interest rates.
Of course, he may have done several philanthropic acts, but that doesn't mean I've heard of them. All I ever hear about is people accusing him of destroying national economies by selling their currencies short.
For example:So, who's the victim of spin? :)
A little search on the net does show several foundations with the Soros name, I didn't go much further. It seems he does like democracy, which is a good thing.
JasonRe:64 times as fast? I think so... (Score:1)
That's the whole point. You're not using the same software. At least I'm not.
Now where did I leave that copy of Word 1.1 for Windows...
Kevin Fox
Obvious next step (Score:2)
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
Re:"Action. Not a bag a mouth" (Score:1)
Re:Hey! (Score:1)
You mean, like the:
nah, I'm thinking more like... (Score:1)
(lameness filter bypass, please ignore)
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
Re:Power Management (Score:1)
The only thing I would change on "Little Blue" would be to have a swappable (you have to shut down first, not hot-swappable) hard drive instead of the bolted down drive. You can do that with a 360 and a few other models even older than the 365. It came with a 1GB HD and I have a 4.3 in there now. It would be kewl to be able to swap that 4.3GB drive (Windows95, don't ask) for that 1GB with Linux on it. As it is, that 1GB drive is just sitting in a static bag inside a padded mailer in a drawer in my desk.
One Answer: They're Forbidden by Law (Score:1)
Re:Something like this existed. (Score:1)
It had a PowerPC 601/60Mhz on the motherboard and a 486DX/66Mhz on a Nubus card. It had minimal support for cutting and pasting between environments and you couldn't run them 'picture in picture' but instead used a hot-key combination to switch the monitor card from the Mac to the PC and back. You didn't have to reboot between them, but you couldn't really use them 'simultaneously' either.
It was useful for a niche (Schools actually got a lot of them), but nowadays a G3 with VirtualPC would be significantly faster than the 486DX. Another huge disadvantage was that the two instances couldn't use the same ram. You had to have extra SIMMs on the PC NuBus card (and that was when 16 megs cost $300!)
Kevin Fox
Crusoe processor details (Score:3)
Re:Power Management (Score:5)
1. By performing scheduling and the like in software, the Crusoe has far fewer transistors (read ~1/4) than a PIII or Athlon. Hence, lower power consumption.
2. In addition, Crusoe has a power management "system" that actually lowers the clock speed whenever less speed is needed. All chips should do that, but they don't. And it doesn't slow down memory access at all, since the bottleneck there is not the processor clock speed. This technology is referred to as LongRun. Here's a quote from Transmeta:
"In a mobile setting, most conventional x86 CPUs regulate their power consumption by rapidly alternating between running the processor at full speed and (in effect) turning the processor off. Different performance levels can be obtained by varying the on/off ratio (the "duty cycle"). However, with this approach, the processor may be shut off just when a time-critical application needs it. This can result in glitches, such as dropped frames during movie playback, that are perceptible (and annoying) to a user.
In contrast, the TM5400 can adjust its power consumption without turning itself off - instead, it can adjust its clock frequency on the fly. It does so extremely quickly, and without requiring an operating system reboot or other slow and involved OS or BIOS operation. As a result, software can continuously monitor the demands on
the processor and dynamically pick just the right clock speed (and hence power consumption) needed to run the application - no more and no less - so no power is wasted. Since the switching happens so quickly, it is not noticeable to the user.
Finally, the Code Morphing software can also adjust the Crusoe processor's voltage on the fly (since at a lower operating frequency, a lower voltage can be used). Because power varies linearly with clock speed and by the square of the voltage, adjusting both can produce cubic reductions in power consumption, whereas conventional CPUs can adjust power only linearly. For example, assume an application program only requires 90 percent of the processor's speed. On a conventional processor, throttling back the processor speed by 10 percent cuts power by 10 percent, whereas under the same conditions, LongRun power management can reduce power by almost 30 percent (0.903 = 0.73) - a noticeable advantage!"
For more information I highly recommend everybody to read "The Technology Behind Crusoe(TM) Processors".
Available at:
http://www.transmeta.com/crusoe/download/pdf/cr
Re:machine code alterations (Score:2)
The thing is, the current breed of chips from transmeta are designed, that is, the hardware is designed, to be able to emulate x86.
Not to say they couldn't come up with a new one that can pretend to be PPC as well, but it sounds like an awful lot of work for such a small market.
I wish: Re:In 20 years people will laugh... (Score:4)
These are both things that will be used if they're available. Like processor speed and memory, the raw figures double, but your computing experience isn't 64 times as fast as it was in 1991, even if your modem is.
It'll either be a long time before your laptop will run easily on a battery for a day, or it'll be a breakthrough product/configuration, not a steady improvement.
*Moore's law actually originally said the number of transistors on a chip would double every year. This was stretched to 18 months a decade later to fit the data, then applied to processor speed, price (inverse), and memory, whenever it seemed nifty to do so.
Kevin Fox
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:2)
Ok I must be missing something but how can you... (Score:1)
Don't be so sure (Score:1)
However, the various technologies that go into laptop power management certainly haven't obeyed Moore's Law so far. Case in point: my laptop from 8 years ago gobbled up batteries as quickly as my current model. Reducing CPU power consumption is nice, especially for devices where the CPU is the big consumer (i.e. all those "network appliance" type of applications). For a typical notebook, the bigger gains will come when better technology is developed for power consumption of LCDs, HDDs, CD-ROMS, etc, and for the battery itself. This has been a slow process so far.
I'm not throwing away my second battery just yet.
Re:But is it worth it? (Score:1)
I suspect the Crue's are not faster than even the low-end Celerons. If that is not true, I'd like to see spec95 benchmark results which transmeta, of course, did not post on their site
Intel's Crusoe killer: 1 watt PIII (Score:3)
And don't forget, lower-power-consumption chips. Check it out:
"[Paul Otellini, co-executive vice president at the Intel Architecture Group, in Santa Clara, Calif.] reviewed Intel's ongoing investments in mobile processors, including a demonstration of a 500MHz Mobile Pentium III that operates at less than 1 watt of power, which Intel expects to ramp to 1GHz in the near future. Intel hopes the chip will be ready this summer...."
Intel eyes Internet as next frontier to cross. (Company Business and Marketing) Dan Briody
InfoWorld May 1, 2000 v22 i18 p5
Web version:
Friday, Apr. 28, 2000 [infoworld.com]
Moore's law (Score:1)
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:2)
The Siamise (SP?) system allows for an Amiga to share resources with a PC system in the same box and uses SCSI to connect the two motherboards. I seem to recall that both win9x and Linux were supported. PC apps could be displayed on the Amiga workbench and likewise amiga apps on the PC partner. This does not really allow the systems to share all resources though. For that consider the Acorn RiscPC.
Acorn produced a system in the early-mid 90s (spring 93 i think but it may well have been 94) which provided a dual headded processor bus capable of supporting not only the native ARM chips but a second processor of practicaly any architecture which would have full use of the same resources of the host. Alas only x86 processor cards were ever produced (At the launch there were many wild suggestions of CRAYs on the second processor bus and for a while PPC looked like it would turn up...) but these allowed windows to run, well crawl
Other issues with the RiscPC architecture limited the system, 16MHz memmory bus, 2MB video ram, no PCI (although ISA cards could be bridged to from the native podule bus). So Acron is no more but I still use my RiscPC (now with StrongARM) if ever i need to do serious work, the UI simply runs rings arrond anything else out there (belive me i've used my fair share.) and there is no better wordprocessor than TechWriter (think WYSIWYG TeX with full AntiAliased fonts)
Inexpensive Thinkpads? (Score:1)
"Action. Not a bag a mouth" (Score:4)
Sure they have some press releases coming out but generally it's just "Ohh we have this cool thing working now. Go buy it". Why can't they be like other companies that announce products 2 or 3 years before the planed ship date?
IBM lately has been delivering on it's promises on time and quickly. So far the only thing wrong in IBM's "Linux Roadmap" is that the Thinkpads haven't had the broad level of Linux support I would like. Sure some models run flawlessly but most of them need a PCMCIA modem and some simply have broken sound or even video in extreme cases.
Apart from that they are doing pretty damned well. Now what are the odds that this box at ship time ( Christmas? ) will have the kind of seamless 100% compatible Linux support people have been screaming for? Sure some of them will ship with Windows but Knowing IBM they might say "If you use our approved Linux distributions your warranty is still valid".
PS : The headline is the title of a song.
New crusoe logo? (Score:1)
Learn better grammar (Score:1)
Re:More in depth analysis (Score:2)
Re:But is it worth it? (Score:1)
Re:machine code alterations (Score:1)
- Ed.
640kB Urban Legend (Score:1)
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:1)
Plus I have sun's 21" monitor with the built-in A/B switch.
So what you describe sorta exists, for the most part. Just have to hit the a/b switch (and hit a key to switch over the mouse/kb between the sun and pc) You can even cut and paste between the Sun and "PC".
siri
Modern assembly language introductory programming? (Score:1)
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:2)
machine code alterations (Score:2)
That would be sweet.
GWEN
The Ultimate in Perversity (Score:5)
With the same power consumption, and at comparable cost (maybe?), as a P3 laptop, they could make a multiprocessor Crusoe system that blows away anything else out there.
Or we could all go do things that aren't insane, but what fun would that be?
But is it worth it? (Score:2)
This looks good because.. (Score:1)
Re:great (Score:5)
Re:Moore's law (Score:3)
Kevin Fox
What about the display and efficiency? (Score:2)
And what about the power efficiency of these devices, are they all running 90% efficient or 10% (and I'll let anyone else who wants to try and define efficient in these circumstances)?
Still Skeptical (Score:3)
Power Management (Score:2)
Financing provided by America Online, Gateway, Compaq Computer, Sony and several others should prove to be a real shot in the arm for Transmeta. As recently as the beginning of the year, Wall street was conserned that although Transmeta seemed to have a good product line, their customer base was small and targeted in only niche markets. With a little luck the 88M will change all that and Transmeta can become a much larger player. So far, only relatively small companies such as S3 have announced that they will use Transmeta's processors in their Internet appliances. Today's investments indicate that the technology elite see a future for the company's chips. They seem to have taken a different approach to cloning Intel chips than have other companies, such as AMD or National Semiconductor. Transmeta relies on "code-morphing" to translate instructions an Intel chip can understand into instructions the Transmeta chip can understand. The method appears to be faster than traditional emulation if you can beleive the press releases, because the instructions, once translated, are stored for later use. Last January of February Intel released its SpeedStep chipset, Which supposedly run faster when plugged in but become more efficient with power when unplugged. I wonder if Transmeta incorporated this style technology with theirs. I wish them well, This has got to only be good for the average consumer, having another big player in the processor market brings prices down across the board.
Re:Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:3)
Acorn have been doing this sort of thing for a much longer time than 93/94. Anyone who remembers the Acorn BBC B/Master, may well remember a strange connector under the main unit marked "Tube". This was actually a bus connector for a co-pro. If i remember correctly, Z80 & 6502 units were both available, and this is back in the mid 80's.
Re:The Ultimate in Perversity (Score:2)
Anyway, a SMP laptop
This reminds me of the SparcII laptops available, they retail for about $7000, total overkill.
Re:"Action. Not a bag a mouth" (Score:2)
Re:But is it worth it? (Score:2)
Re:Still Skeptical (Score:2)
And those little boxes Corel used to make are SA powered, with a Linux port running on them.
And, of course Strong Arm runs NetBSD...
Something like this existed. (Score:2)
The problem with the KVM-in-a-box idea is that both operating systems would expect to have the run of all bus-attached devices (sound cards, video cards, SCSI, whatever). To my knowledge, no one has ever come up with a good way to handle this kind of problem: modern computer designs can handle disks appearing and disappearing, and even SCSI attached devices, but not actual SCSI interfaces and whatnot.
Actually, your last idea - a KVM adapter which does split-screen displays - is a great idea. I don't know if its been done already, but it should be, if only for the coolness factor.
Re:machine code alterations (Score:2)
It's reduced instruction set. You'll have 150 instructions instead of 500, but an operation requiring 100 instructions on a CISC chip may require 1000 instructions on a RISC (since each instruction does less work). This means the processor would need to read and translate more instructions when emulating a RISC chip. OTOH, there are less instructions (and they're relatively simple), so the emulation might be easier to program.
George Soros. (Score:3)
That's the first time I've heard of him being called a "philanthropist". Most of the time everyone is acusing him of destroying countries' monetary systems.
Jason PollockRe:Still Skeptical (Score:3)
Answer this question and you will see the benefit of crusoe over other low power chips.
I wanna Transmeta VAIO!! (Score:2)
Or at least a 505 type series notebook... Preinstalled with Linux (with Sony support)...
Forget dual boot, think omniboot... (Score:3)
Of course, the real beauty comes when you can download the instruction set for Playstation, PS2, Dreamcast, TiVo, or any other embedded system you care to and service all your computing needs with one box.
Well, two if you count the handheld version with PalmOS, NewtonOS, LinuxCE, WAPOS, NokiaOS, etc.
Suddenly the application is the OS...
Kevin Fox
Re:Power Management (Score:2)
Re:Some like it hot. (Score:3)
I would like to comment here that Transmeta has never (that I recall) said they would have the fastest chip on the block. If they have, they've certainly not been asserting it much. What they have said is that they will have comparable performance and flawless emulation at a dramatically lower current draw.
Transmeta's goal isn't to bring you the most powerful chip around. Intel and AMD are both fighting to have that honor right now, and there's not much room for the little guy there. However, they do intend to have the best current-to-power ratio (I couldn't resist) and we've all seen how well they're doing. It's not like you can take the MediaGX chip seriously or anything.
In summary, for anyone who's read this far down and still not gotten it, Crusoe isn't about SpecFP95. It's about wattage.