Bills to Restrict Campus Internet Access 656
Slackrat writes "This article in the Arizona Daily Wildcat details the efforts of Rep. Jean McGrath, R-Glendale, to restrict dormitory visitation, require the installation of Internet filters, and allow students to to use campus Internet connections only for a "specific educational purpose" on all Arizona university campuses. And you thought banning Napster was rough." It goes beyond Internet access; opposite-sex dormroom visitation is on the block, too.
Take your head out of your ass! (Score:2)
I have one question: Exactly what are students with high speed connections supposed to use their bandwidth for now?
Words fail me... (Score:2)
residents' rooms for prohibited items.
That was nice of her 8-).
Preparing students. . . (Score:2)
Re:!!A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM!! (Score:2)
So I just replied to say ROTFL
Arizona has some problems (Score:5)
I also doubt the internet restrictions will pass, and suspect they are also just political manuvering. I wouldn't put it past the legislature here to do something like that though, but it isn't much of a concern as the dorms aren't wired anyway, the only place we have internet access is in the computer labs.
opposite sex (Score:4)
Yeah, this'll work (Score:2)
as for no-opposite-sex visitation/restricted hours... riiiight. Who's enforcing those rules? RAs? Y'mean, fellow students? I've walked in the front door of dorms way past the witching hour. I've been smuggled in to women's halls. It's great fun to get around the security, why should this pleasure be restricted to only a few, when the entire nation could have the fun?
I should add that any campus looking to implement these rules should also instigate "first-two-years-must-be-spent-in-our-dorms" rules as well, or they'll get to see some awfully empty dorms.
what irony.... (Score:2)
> uses a campus Internet connection to decide
> which political candidates to support. That
> person is misusing university equipment, she
> said, just as if she used her legislative
> office phone to make long-distance personal
> phone calls.
I would guess that the "campus Internet connection" ISSUE will help students "decide which political candidates to support".... Not her for sure.
Supposed to be "Just your Average Linux User" but it got chopped off when they upgraded....
Hetero Discrimination (Score:2)
10 years later this same campus has 6 co-ed dorms with only 2 same sex dorms.
Somebody should ask the senator if this means he is 'pro-gay' and see how fast that gets re-worded.
Re:Take your head out of your ass! (Score:2)
magazines. You know that RCA ad with the two dogs sitting in front of the TV? You couldn't imagine the filth they were watching. Anyway, I'm betting that her art work material-gathering research would have been banned under
this bill. Censorship stinks.
Interesting what exactly was the message? That television was bad/degrading? I however agree that censorship does indeed suck.
I have one question: Exactly what are students with high speed connections supposed to use their bandwidth for now?
Downloading the linux kernel and slashdot silly!
Re:That settles it... (Score:2)
-dumb dick
Then why give them all dorm room access? (Score:3)
Now, after investing who knows how much, they want to take away a large degree of that usability? These systems clearly have the bandwidth, so they can't claim that all the non-educational activity is stealing from students involved in educational research. Just another case of someone trying to superimpose his/her morals onto society. As long as no crime is being committed, the students should have full access to the internet.
As for that visitation thing; get real. At my school, some dorm halls had that, and those who wanted it could live there, but they always had a tougher time filling those rooms than those on the rest of campus. Apply it to the full University system, and off campus landlords will be rejoicing.
Why shouldn't they and a better solution (Score:2)
Given that bandwidth is a limited commodity, shouldn't that commodity be doled at an educational insititution *first* to those using for legitimate educational purposes? Tying up that bandwidth downloading porn, MP3s, playing games or anything else that's not specifically educational seems to be limiting network usage for people who are trying to do something educational with it.
The answer is probably not in censorship per se, but in tighter control of bandwidth. When I was a CSci student many moons ago, we were given mainframe accounts with a specific allocation of connection time AND CPU utilization. If you screwed around and played games, you burned up your CPU or connect time and coulndn't do assignments unless you went and bought more time. Assigned time was pretty generous and I always had a bunch left over.
Internet connections should have the same type of limitations. Each quarter you get X Mbytes of throughput. Use it for school or for screwing around -- but run out, and you're paying out of pocket. People who need more time (ie, I'm a CSci student writing networking software) would be granted more time, people doing internet-specific research could have their departments buy them time, and so on.
There should perhaps be "peak" and "offpeak" time or similar models so that screwing around at 3AM doesn't "cost" as much as doing so in the middle of the afternoon.
Re:5 words (Score:2)
And I thought that college was supposed to make a person liberal. When does life stop being a prison camp. We now have life being crappy from K-12 now we have life being crappy for 4 more years if you want to go to college. All I can say to this is ***************DOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!*****.
Notes from the inside... (Score:5)
As both a computer science student and a Resident Assistant, I fall on both sides of this edict - those affected by it, and those who would(if in Arizona) be required to enforce it.
Although RA's, in general, get a lot of flak for not "letting people have any fun", there is one thing that RA's generally have in common - we don't want to enforce more regulations then necessary.
In this case, I have a whole lotta problems with this. In effect, a regulation like the one dealing with inter-gender dorm visitation would require me to stop people from having sex.
I won't be doing that.
Mind you, this isn't a moral judgement. If you want to have extramarital sex, so long as it's legal for you to do so(i.e., age of consent), I'm not planning to stop you. That's your choice. I'm not planning to pigeonhole residents who live for me just because some state senator decides that Sex Is Dirty.
The network restriction is even more ludicrous. Porn viewers don't really hurt anyone. True, they take up shared bandwidth, but I doubt enough porn is shoved through ANY school's machines to make a noticeable difference in network traffic or available bandwidth. Second, this idea of filtering cuts to the very heart of free speech - in effect, you are preventing legitimate adults from using services that they have paid for in ways that are perfectly legal and don't hurt anyone. Some schools decide that they don't want porn on a school-by-school basis. While I may not agree with the decision, it's something that each school needs to decide. Personally, i don't see many schools deciding that monitoring porn habits is a good use of employee time.
Finally, I don't think that filtering enhances "education" any more. Is Slashdot eduicational? Well, I don't have any classes that talk about it, so not really. Same with the Weather Channel Online, CNN Interactive, etc. Where do we draw the line between educational and non?
The answer: Don't regulate it. If a school has a bandwidth problem, and they want to regulate, fine. But, don't regulate me because you have a "moral" problem with what I do, and because you're a state senator.
education is not employment (Score:4)
and i'm not even going to comment on the blatant attempt to legislate morals here.
Half of school is... (Score:2)
Okay, Internet connections are not being used for school work but that is a perk of living in the dorms. Living in dorm is kinda lame, but alot of places you have no choice.
The downside of dorms are someone is always looking over your shoulder, you can't have alcohol or drugs, you have to be around people you don't like, and you lose a alot of privacy. What you get are friends, knowledge of parties and a fast Internet connection. Take any of that away, and living in dorms is like living with your parents but costs *alot* of money.
I think this Republicain lady is alittle uptight. She probably was one those girls in the dorms that did not have sex, do drugs, drink or goto parties. So fo some wierd reason, she is taking it out on everyone else.
Re:Preparing students. . . (Score:2)
this, 8th grade? 9th grade? *When* is this? 1955? 1957? INTERNET FILTERS?? I thought we were finally getting past this stuff. Guess not.
Well I say that if they decide to put internet filters on that people should make sure that the sysadmin gets a little "review". Meaning that any slight infraction of the code and the syadmin should be booted out of a job. If they don't set an example then I guess everyone else can do what they want. Just connect via your isp or something and use they service via the university's initial network.
this out of Arizona? (Score:2)
Re:opposite sex (Score:5)
This is a great opening. Just start calling it the "Gay Collage Students Privacy Bill" and watch as support whithers.
"So, senator, how are you voting on the Gay Collage Students Privacy Bill?"
"The what bill?!?"
"You know. The one that gets rid of those pesky girls. The ones to keep girls away from our horny studs so that there's less competition."
"Um, uh, er... I .. uh .. hm. I have always supported the rights of gays to .. uh.. er. I uh.. I mean, I disapprove of .. uh. What bill is that again?"
"You know. The one that keeps the horny studs from getting any pr0n and also keeps the girls away. So that when they just have do appease the monster, instead of choking the chicken or banging that luscious coed, they turn to their fellow man for help."
"Um, er, uh... I'm not sure I like the sound of that bill."
"Thank you, senator."
---
Out of touch (Score:2)
Isn't that the real problem? This looks to be just political grandstanding, about issues she isn't prepared to understand, looked at through a viewpoint that's a half-century too old. And you know what? Older people vote, and older people will believe her when she says that:
the atmosphere at Arizona universities as "not conducive to learning." The primary indication of this, McGrath said, is the high number of students dropping out after their freshman year.
Actually, the reason a lot of students are dropping out after freshman year has little to do with the school, and a lot to do with American culture right now, which proclaims that you have to go to college. So people get there, and a good chunk decide it isn't for them. That's where her drop-out figures are coming from.
According to that article, neither the students nor the administrators want this bill, and she's pressing ahead anyway. Legislating morality, indeed. She just needs an issue to get popular on, there's an election coming up.
How is this going to work? (Score:2)
Now, how is this furthering education? granted, college kids downloading pr0n all night long aren't really getting much of an education in anything other than human depravity and anatomy, but why is it that so-called "lawmakers" fail to realize the great potential set forth by the existence of the internet? After all, at what point in human history has so much information been instantly attainable by anyone on the planet? And just because *someone* finds it offensive doesn't mean it's not information. Another thing, will this exclude news sites such as Slashdot that report on a wide variety of topics? Will they individually go in and check to see that the Astronomy majors aren't reading news articles about Gaming or Open Source? I'm thinking the only way to get around such proposals, should they come about (which, although ludicrous, isn't quite as laughable as I'd like them to be) is to just not declare a major at all, which leaves your options pretty much open. I feel sorry for those students, and for myself, since I plan to move to Phoenix in a few months and hope to attend law school while there. I'm also wondering if this will create a big enough impetus among students to move off-campus, thereby skirting these rules. Could the universities really do without all that room and board income? Someone should get McGrath a calendar. My God, we're a few months away from the 21st century, and yet we're still having to deal with people in power who are afraid of one of the greatest achievements in human history. And one more thing, the students are all ADULTS, no matter how much those in power don't want to admit it. What's more, they are paying for the privilege to attend these schools, public though they may be. College is not like high school, where everything is paid for by local taxes or government bonds. Let people control themselves. Hell, those who are sitting around in a circle-jerk around the latest www.insert-euphamism-for-something-sexual-here.com all the time aren't going to be around too long anyway.
banning classes (Score:5)
~Caliban
Re:what people think: (Score:2)
requests of students"), but I can't see this being received well by anyone on campus.
Well I hate to say it but I think that the vast majority of these people are either Mormons or Strict fundamentalist sects of christianity or maybe Muslums of some sort. People having sex is not really that bad in terms of bring dowm the world or anything. People just don't think it a good idea. They just don't like picturing anything like that happening.
I little way to defeat this is to use disguises and such. Have people wear sexually neutral clothing and just disguise your voice a little. Corny yes but it might work.
In related news... :) (Score:2)
Re:what irony.... (Score:3)
McGrath responded to this scenario: a student uses a campus Internet connection to decide which political candidates to support. That person is misusing university equipment, she said, just as if she used her legislative office phone to make long-distance personal phone calls.
.and. the kicker
On the other hand, the same student, viewing the same pages for a class assignment, is using the equipment properly, she said.
I want this lady writing more Internet legislation she is "with it" and knows how "totally rad" this whole "Internet" thing is....
I also read this as saying, "If you are an out-of-state student (i.e. not subsidized by the state) you have free reign to grab all the pr0n you want" It's not taxpayer money at that point (have you seen out of state tuitions?!), and therefore their purview expires.
education (Score:3)
I don't see how cutting off access to peers and anything deemed "offensive" by the moral supremecy conducive to education. Um, shouldn't we be _exposed_ to and learn to _analyse_ "offensive" or controversial things?
The only thing a stupid bill like this would do is raise a generation of closed-minded ignorant bigotted people. Hmm...maybe that is why it was proposed...
Jazilla.org - the Java Mozilla [sourceforge.net]
Some thoughts... (Score:4)
This is honestly the scary part of it. Clearly, there are sufficient votes in trying to pass these bans that it's worth infuriating large segments of the student population.
(Mind you, the students have no union. The UK's NUS would blow something like this out the water faster than you could say "urp!".)
First off, the best way to kill the bill is to kill the support. No votes, no risks, no bill. It's as simple as that. Whilst you fight on the facts, you'll risk losing, as voters don't care about the facts any more than the politicians do.
Remember that. Voters look after number 1, and if that means voting for an ultra-conservative, then you can wave your rights good-bye.
If that changes, though - if those same voters start to feel that they are impacted by this, somehow, they'll change their minds. Fast. Whilst it's someone else's problem - ESPECIALLY those "Pinko Socialist Students" who are so "stuck up" and "deserve to be kicked out of their ivory towers" - then why should Joe and Jane Bloggs give a damn? Far as their concerned, students are getting no better than they deserve. After all, learning and stuff makes people "stuck up and snobbish". It makes them "know more". In short, a lot of people think about as low of students as tech folk think of politicians, and the Right Wing thinks of Big Government.
The only way to change the minds of those voters is to get them involved. Make the fight personal to them, somehow, and make sure that they are on the same side of the fence as the students. There's nothing like personal ego and vested self-interest to change someone's mind.
Last, but not least, a call to all students in Arizona and surrounding States. Go on a Rent Strike, if the University's go ahead with this. Sure, they can threaten to kick you out, but no students equals no income equals no jobs for them. And their self-interest won't allow that. You can't lose anything but these paper-chains.
First Amendment (Score:2)
WHOA. This is a little disturbing. Even though this "bill" probably doesn't stand a chance of passing (how much would a campus wide "internet filter" and budget for enforcing student behavior cost?) I am worried that a legislator (and a group of lawyers) would even *think* like this. This is definitely a matter for concern.
The most astounding thing about the internet (and the greatest potential) is the vast amount of information out there to be communicated. When we read books/magazines/newspapers we have to filter out useful information from the crap that is out there: the net is no different. If internet access is filtered, might as well check the library for some undesirable materials. Anyone for a book burning?
The content that is on the net is a reflection of society as a whole, in my opinion. There is nothing on the net that you couldn't find in "The Real World". Trying to limit access is the same thing as censorship, a strict violation of the First Amendment.
In my years in college (U. of Iowa), something similar was brought before the legislature that would have essentially limited research that the faculty could pursue. (I thought *that* was the most backward thing I had ever heard, until now...)
Is this type of thing becoming common all over the country?
Re:and you thought pr0n was bad.. look at her pic! (Score:2)
(Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on 15:56 24th January, 2000 MDT
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/images/jmcgrath.gif
*gagging myself with an egg beater*
Anyone willing to spend some time doing "creative" enhancements to that little ol' photo. Maybe there's a larger version or perhaps a full body one.
Dottering Old Blue Hairs (Score:2)
Why do they do this?
Dottering old blue hairs vote and you don't...
and so began the case... (Score:2)
McGrath responded to this scenario: a student uses a campus Internet connection to decide which political candidates to support. That person is misusing university equipment, she said, just as if she used her legislative office phone to make long-distance personal phone calls.
On the other hand, the same student, viewing the same pages for a class assignment, is using the equipment properly, she said
The very small positive side to the article (Score:2)
The point she is missing is students and their families pay for all those services through tuition and taxes. It's not like they're getting something free that should be restricted. When a student signs a housing contract, he is contracting for those services, and paying a bundle for it. There is no "free use of government resources" involved.
Anyway, the article as much as states that her bills, like so many offered by crank legislatures, stand little chance of even coming to a vote, let alone passing.
Trends (Score:3)
Whether or not this person is serious about this bill, as some posters haqve suggested, is irrelevant. The attempt to clamp down on pornography, mp3's etc, is part of a larger trend of oppression of the young that is sweeping america. As america gets older, its polititians become more conservative, more restrictive, and more out of touch with the youth of america. This bill is evidence of that, the age of adulthood has been increasing along with the average age of the population. Once you were considered an adult at 18, capable of making decisions like whether or not you should drink for yourself, now the age in almost every state is 21. Has the maturity of americas youth changed? no, nothing has changed, merely the perception of polititans that we are children and therefore have no rights, and can eaisily be oppressed. The youth still have the vote fortunately, one of the problems is that we dont use it. We need to send polititans a mesage, that we can take care of ourselves, that we arent children anymore, and we wont take this kind of crap like censoring and filtering an internet that we are building ourselves as much as anyone else.
/rant
A word from someone who's gone through this (Score:3)
The dorm advisors were the enforcers and were actually sent on patrols through the halls between 1 am and 4 am to listen for the sounds of the opposite sex. (Sad, I know.)
The students are overwhelmingly in favor of a change, but the president and board are children of the fifties and sixties. At that time, social biases kept men and women from developing friendships and pursuing the same majors. There was no need for mixed sex study groups. Few guys had friends who were girls or vice versa. The only opposite sex visitors were girl/boyfriends. The problem here is that the people who are trying to make these rules had a college experience that would be unrecognizable to most of today's college students.
Opposite sex? (Score:2)
I went to a strict school... (Score:5)
There were no co-ed dorms. Students were not allowed to invite members of the opposite sex into their rooms. The rules stipulated no drinking, no smoking, no drugs, no dancing (you wouldn't believe the things Mennonites can talk themselves into), and absolutely-by-God no sex. RA's were expected to police the dorms to insure compliance.
I can tell you from personal experience that a good third of the students drank, a large number smoked, plenty of pot was smoked in and out of the dorms, and dancing wasn't considered serious enough to elicit serious rule-breaking. As for sex, have you ever known any large group of single 18-24 yr olds stuck together to abstain? I can assure you this group was no exception.
One of the English profs sang folk songs at a local bar, and a lot of her students showed up to listen to her. I caught my French advisor in a bar, drink in one hand, cigarette in the other. (I had snuck in on a slightly confusing foreign ID.)
The pharmacy across the street from the college had a quite sizeable stock of condoms, cigarettes, booze, porno and even rolling papers. They filled an indeterminate number of birth control prescriptions. The college clinic was even willing to provide prescriptions for birth control, and under the table would point women to the Planned Parenthood office in the city if it was a little too late for the pill. (Confidentiality was in the clinic's charter.)
Of the 16 guys on my dorm floor, there were at least 5 who received soft porn magazines through the college mail, two who could be relied on to have that month's Hustler, and one guy who got a variety of stuff with names like "Big Boobs and Classic Cars."
The rules were not even dimly enforceable.
This was before the 'Net and at a private, religious school. What on earth could lead this McGrath person to think that if a conservative, Christian college with the full legal authority to enforce whatever rules they saw fit couldn't keep the kinds of rules she has in mind, what leads her to think she can impose them through legislation when local college administrators are openly hostile to her rules?
Re:Crap (Score:2)
Unfortunately, Republicans have been this way a long time, and their "less government" campaign promise has almost nothing to do with their actual voting record. I can relate to your position-- I sympathized with Republicans until I was about 20, when Reagan was in office and I saw some of the tremendous damage being done to civil liberties. He promoted a religious state, a police state, and a corporate state, and conservative politicians have unfortunately carried those banners ever since. The War on Drugs, a major Reagan legacy, is a good example of this, and it's also a good tool to harass political opponents. It was like the USA threw civil liberties by the wayside. I felt like I could be thrown in jail for opening my mouth about it. It was scary.
I'm not trying to start flame wars or troll or anything, I'm just trying to relate a little history to people who have become adults in the 90's, who may not remember what it was like. Trust me, the 80's were a harsh time for little things like freedom of speech and freedom from police abuse. We have big and different problems now, but in many ways it's not as bad as it was then.
I encourage you to explore third-party options. There are many out there, and surely some that match your values better than either of the big two. It's not a wasted vote-- if enough people vote third-party, they can become a voting block that big candidates pursue. Also, they get allowed into debates, which can ultimately mean they get elected.
She's right (Score:2)
ASU is renowned nationwide as a party school. If you've ever been there (I live 3 miles from it) you'll notice that they have these little blue lights all over the campus. Everywhere. Those are date rape/emergency phones. Attacks by drunken assholes happen so often at ASU that they had to put in call boxes everywhere on campus. They are literally every 30 feet, on every stairway, sidewalk, etc. It's no wonder they want to change the atmosphere there. They have every right to do so, for the dorms are owned by the state. As such they should have a right to look at their own property and make sure it's not getting trashed, just like a landlord in an apartment complex has the right to enter your apartment to make sure you are not violating the lease (pets, too many tenants, etc).
There seems to be a lot of hypocrasy on
Re:Why shouldn't they and a better solution (Score:3)
Add to this the additional headaches your suggestion would cause. Everyone would have to be educated about the new method and a lot of the non-geeks would take a while to undersatand. I would be pissed that the people who barely touch their computers are wasting an allotment of throughput that I could be using. Sysadmins would have to use valuable hours making sure the bandwidth sharing system was working and that no one was getting around it. Trust me, no one would like it.
Ms. McGrath can legislate all she wants.... (Score:3)
What goes beyond all reason, though, is the censorship of political ideas. Is it not the function of an institute of higher learning to revel in the free exchange of ideas, and by doing so to expand one's mind? College students are, mostly, of the age of majority (at least to vote), and neither need nor desire protection from so-called dangerous ideas.
The poor lady is deluded if she thinks she's going to do anything more than be a giant pain in the toosh to the good people of the State of Arizona. But I think it goes beyond that. The lady wants complete and total control of the still-malleable minds present in her state's universities, and she's like to get it if she's not stopped.
By whatever means necessary.
She thinks she has the right to impose her morals on adults. She would use the power of the state, which is the power of legal[sic] violence, in order to do so. This is doubleplusungood. She wouldn't get her way this time, as I've said, but that won't stop her from using increasingly more draconian measures in order to do so. And remember, she has the State's guns to back her up.
The Internet censorship issue is more than likely provably a First Amendment violation. But I don't think we should have to wait that long for our freedom. McGrath has been exposed. She should now be removed as a representative and steward of the peoples' rights. I leave it to the people of Arizona as to how.
--
We cannot legislate against all the stupid things people will do. -- Jesse Ventura, Governor of Minnesota
Re:Dottering Old Blue Hairs (Score:3)
Stupid politicians are the norm in state politics, no matter the party.
College students are adults, not children (Score:2)
The idea of preventing this so called misuse of public resources is a farce. The cost of implementing and managing filtering would likely outweigh any cost savings.
Where does ligitemate student research of medical issues come into play. Who decides what sites should be blocked. The software that's available is meant to block sites that are inappropriate for children. College students are adults! College students are there to learn.
The idea of banning men from visiting women's dorm rooms and vice versa is even more rediculus. What are they going to do about homosexuals? Ban them from the dorms?
I understand filtering internet access in primary and secondary schools. Those students are minors, and the school has a responsibility to make a reasonable attempt to not provide material the parents wouldn't approve of. However, when children become adults, they are supposed to have the right to make decisions for themselves. If mommy and daddy want to have someone watch over their young adults, and make sure they aren't doing anything they don't approve of, there are numerous private schools which provide a more controlled environment. The government should not be stepping in and censoring what adult students can see or do. I understand that pregnancy among freshmen girls is a serious problem, but banning dorm room visitation is an overly draconian solution. At what point do we teach people they are responsible for their actions.
The internet is an exelent source of information of all kinds. These young people should have the chance to form their own opinions and make their own, informed decisions.
Re:Words fail me... (Score:2)
;-)
Think you meant "Lock" there, pal.
Re:I wonder if... (Score:2)
I wonder if the Representative has ever sent or received email from a family member while at the office...
Newsbreak: McGrath has decided to extend her bill for preventing the use of taxpayer money to pay for personal matters at universities. The amendments include: banning all televisions, radios, microwaves, and all other electronics other than desk lamps and non-radio alarm clocks, to prevent the use of taxpayer money paying for the electricity used for those newfangled "electronic devices". Firing all the food service people and distributing and government rations , since learning does not require students to have a variety of tasteful food. Disbanding all student organizations, as they use taxpayer resources (university buildings, land, and power) to support personal activites. And the telephones in the dormitories will be modified to allow calls only to school staff. When asked if she wanted to prohibit personal conversations between students, as they were using taxpayer air, she replied "hmmm... I'll have to consider that one."
She most obviously has no clue what the heck she is talking about. All the "personal" stuff has long been considered part of the college experience. It's part of the non-classroom learning and growing. Sure, the internet wasn't around before, but it is now, and it should be treated like any other service the school provides. They don't regulate the usage of the electricity or water, so why the information flow?
---
Re:Why shouldn't they and a better solution (Score:5)
You don't spend $100,000 to save $20,000!
Re:She's right (Score:2)
CGI Proxies (Score:2)
The freedom to choose (Score:2)
The freedom to make your own decisions - which must include the freedom to have sex in your dorm room or download porn over the Internet if you want. Letting students make their own choices is the only way they can grow into adults capable of making reasoned decisions. If you want to take children and turn them into capable adults, then you must treat them as such and give them all the rights which adults are entitled to.
The freedom to choose is what separates a university education from high school, a great university from a mediocre one, or even a great and free country from a dictatorship. What she proposes will do the students in Arizona a great disservice.
Restricted net access? (Score:2)
Oh yes, and those nice pieces of paper which get you a good job.
--
Re:Words fail me... (Score:4)
College students are > 18, VOTE! (Score:2)
Re:opposite sex (Score:2)
a) More Republicans than Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the most important civil rights law of the century? and
b) The only Senator or Representative in office ever to me a member of the KKK is... a Democrat. Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia.
Your flame only demonstrates your ignorance. What KKK members are you referring to?
It's ironic... (Score:2)
Bring up this issue in the 2000 campaign! (Score:2)
If you can attend any public debates or other candidate appearances, ask the candidates as visibly as possible what they think about censorship and the right of adults to read whatever they want. If they say "not if the government's paying for it", have a response ready, perhaps "I'm the one paying taxes for it and I don't want the government to censor me or my children", or another response of your choosing.
Skip the rherotic; Go for the military uniforms. (Score:2)
Like, this is stupid. Are foriegners the only ones that thing that the United States of America is the land of the free? It seems that at every opportunity, I see LOTS of bills that look like they'd be more suited towards Nazi Germany rather than Washington DC.
I'm probably going to burn some Karma on this one, but why not skip this slow slide into despotism; If history classes actually taught in the US, the electorate should be able to see in a second where all these bills lie. The erosion of personal freedoms is something that has happened in countless empires before the current holder of the title, and it appears that it will continue to!
So, let's all save some time. It would appear from an outside observer's persepective (I'm Canadian) that some of the things your government would like include:
YEEEESH. Wake up and smell where this heads, and it isn't pretty. More reason to concider a move to europe. Where they worked most of this stuff out in the _last_ revolution.
Kudos!
My response to Jean McGrath (Score:2)
I recently became aware of a bill you have propsed concerning two seperate issues for university students. One is the preventing of guests of the opposite sex in their rooms. The other is concerning filters to be placed on university internet connections, to prevent unethical use. I felt it would be important to get a feeling of the people you are representing in this bill.
First I'd like to address the issue of censorship. Who are you to propose what is 'proper' for a student to view? Most college students are 18 when they reach college, and hence are viewed by the state as an adult. As an adult, you are able to be tried for the death penalty, and have all the responsibility associated along with being 'an adult'. Because of all the pornography on the internet, I can understand your concern for wanting to limit internet usage for 'specific educational purposes'. But, who is to decide what is 'decent' for college students to view? In most college universities, it would be an over-worked administrator. Having been a network administrator at a State University, I can say that instituting this policy will be difficult and unrewarding. However, should each college
administrator 'decide' what is 'educational'?
For instance, being a party-independant canidate, I might block all access to Republican web pages, but let through an alternate candidates site?
This has too much room for abuse and negligence. Also, it is censorship in it's purest form. By placing restrictions on students viewpoints, we limit their possibilites as individuals in this nation of ours. A universities choice in what they want to block on the internet is their choice. If they have half of their resources consumed by students going to a pornography site, I'm sure they will take care of the problem. A more conservative school might choose to block all non-educational sites.
But any school that my son or daughter attends will have full access to any materials that are legally available on the internet. They are adults, and I will raise them with the accordingly appropriate values that I believe in. And as they are adults, they are competent to decide for themselves where their interests lie.
The other issue is one of opposite sex visitations. This is also censorship in the expression of the students, and encourages sexism. And the same rules can be made as above with each school deciding. At the state-sponsored university I attended, there were coed and single sex dorms. I chose to be in a coed dorm, because it's important to be able to socialize with everyone, not just people of your own gender.
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the best chance that people of this generation get to socialize is at college. Your best chance as a single guy is while at college, with a higher chance of the proposed mate being both intelligent and unmarried. This takes away a huge social element for today's youth.
Also, it encourages males to be friends with other males, and females to be friends with other females. While in college, about half of my friends were female, and I would not restrict people's choice in friends. This encourages people to consider the opposite gender as 'different' which encourages sexism.
Finally, any values I've instilled in my offspring I believe will reflect their behavior in the dormatories. and if I'm a good parent, they will behave as I consider to be proper. And that is my own decision, not my governments.
This bill represents a blow to censorship, and obviously displays your distain for young adults everywhere. While your position in the Republican party might not rely on the youth vote for your current position, I encourage you to realize that Censorship in any form is the first step towards a Socialist state, and not a democracy. How soon till we start to censor state-sponsored atrocities, in interest of protecting adults?
College students are adults and should be treated as such.
Thank you for your time.
Benjamin "Gonzo" Granzeau, age 25, male
(Feel free to use any of the above message in the spirit intended. Also, if you would like to speak to me in person about the above topic, I would be happy to call you to help.)
--
Gonzo Granzeau
It's Arizona allright (Score:2)
Unconstitutional? (Score:4)
- Sexual discrimination This is a biggy. Seriously. What's the difference between saying a man/woman can't go somewhere and saying a black/white/Indian/European person can't go somewhere? You can argue all day about intentions to do things not conducive to "proper" study habits, but there's no way to say that a guy's buddies aren't coming over to play N64 games and otherwise deter studying.
- Discrimination Against Heterosexuals If the primary goal of this legislation is to stop in-dorm procreation, it's clear cut that this is a very narrow-minded way of doing it. Two counter-examples can be provided:
- Lack of Jurisdiction While state colleges are publically-owned and under jurisdiction of the state congress, such a policy is discrimination by sex and, hence, unconstitutional. The power to deny freedoms based on gender is expressly denied in the US Constitution. Were such a bill to become law, it would be impossible to enforce if the defendant were willing to appeal to a higher court.
- Hypocracy While senators and representatives may have strong opinions that sexual intercourse impairs proper study habits, and they may believe that they have the moral duty and power to prevent such actions from taking place, I would like to point out that any public officer in favour of such a bill that has received any sort of sexual favours in a public building, public office, or motor vehicle representing a public office is a hypocrite.
Perhaps it's that I'm enrolled in a very liberal university (Rice, down in Houston), but I really can't see how lawmakers think that they can get away with such a blatant disregard for the principles upon which this country was founded. I mean, here at Rice, sexuality is regarded as part of life--your personal life. What you do behind closed doors with intimate partners is your business. Others, most-likely don't want to hear about it, nor do they care. I guess we have more of a community atmosphere down here than a "Students" versus "The Adults" environment. I don't know. I just really don't see any other way to be mature about it. If nothing else, we're adults dammit! We can think for ourselves, make our own money, wipe our own asses, and vote on whether or not these fascists will remain in office With regard to Internet access.... They actually have more ground here. The public pays for the Internet access for the education use within the public college. The only argument the students have in this scenario is censorship. Internet access is not a right (though I wish it were) and since state funds are being spent on it, they do have jurisdiction. However, if the public displays that such policing is not in their interests, legislatores will be wary to vote for an unpopular bill. It's still an oppressive regime of treating adults like children and it sickens me. I would suggest that any concerned students in these schools threaten to study elsewhere if this bill were to pass (IE: threaten beforehand so the universities put the heat on the state). Demonstrate! Be vocal! Show them that you mean it when you say. I am a voting adult! Dammit! Respect My Authoritah!!!- Other-gender study partners
- Same-gender intimate partners
I realize that homosexual and bisexual persons have endured similar oppressions in the past and still endure them today, but I think we can all agree that the way to harmonize this situation is to stop such personal micromanagement and let people decide things for themselves.why are uniforms bad? (Score:3)
McGrath's homepage & email (Score:2)
jmcgrath@azleg.state.az.us
As an ASU student, I am totally against these two bills. The day I heard about the dorm room proposal I hunted down her web site and fired off two emails stating as such.
Actually, it has to do with Religious Right (Score:2)
Weeeeelllllll... more accurately, it has to do with the pressure from the religious right, who are about twice (?) as likely to vote as everyone else. The religious right is quite strong in Tennessee, so politicians of all parties will court them. However, Republicans are historically much more likely to pander to them than Democrats. If you doubt this, then try to find a Republican politician in Tennessee who is willing to take a stand against the religious right there. Good luck.
I've also known some pretty conservative "Democrat" politicians in southern states.
I am neither Democrat nor Republican. It's true there are idiots in both parties, but as a whole, based on their national voting record, the Democrats have been much more concerned with civil liberties such as freedom of speech and assembly. Gun control is the only issue where this is reversed.
Re:Right in principle, wrong in practice (Score:2)
So what? (Score:2)
Oh, and I expect it would also mean less students in state or out of state who'd be interested in going to college in the state. Of course you could probably also make a case that it discriminates against the lower income residents of the state who can't afford to attend college outside the state. Since the students with the most talent always learned more from exploring the network, the low income students with real talent could lose that edge which could cost them jobs in the future and keep them in their low income situation. Which probably suits Republicans just fine.
With cable modems and DSL rapidly becoming more available, that high speed access is becoming less and less relevant.
Respect and School (Score:5)
The thing that bothers me most about it is - if you treat people like kids (IE - they aren't smart enough to make choices for themselves), then they tend to act like kids. It was amazing how many people I encountered in classes who were really thrown off by classes without rigid structure/due dates and spoon-fed material. I didn't think these people were stupid - they were just born in an educational system which never exposed them to thinking for themselves - this is just the same thing outside the classroom.
The ol' "If you're old enough to be drafted and die in a war" mantra pops up, of course, but I don't think age is the whole story. People like Rep. Jean McGrath don't want ANYONE looking at porn sites, having sex before marriage (or whatever justification behind coed visitation restrictions), etc. These people want to enforce their belief system and their ideas on everyone. "Kids" are a great target, because society in general generally accepts kids shouldn't be exposed to some things for awhile.
Problem is, college students aren't kids, and no one needs to be making their choices for them. It's particularly insulting for those students who are basically financially independent (via loans/grants/their earned income) - gee, everyones old enough to 1) Vote 2) Get drafted 3) Pay Taxes 4) Stand trial as an adult -- but we need to impose these limits on college campuses. It's always good to try and understand an opposing viewpoint, but reasoning like this will never make sense to me.
Anyway this is just another good reminder for all of us to fight back the apathy and vote for the lesser-evil candidate.
Hmm... (Score:2)
I'm sorry Ms. MgGrath, R-Glendale, but this is the 21st century. We are the future. If you're going to want to tell people what to do, most are smarter than to just lay down and let you have your way with them. The solution is simple -- enrollment will drop, and you'll be voted out of office next term. You seem to forget that nearly all college students are of legal voting age, and while we do not have much reason to vote, someone like you in public office would be enough to make me run out to the next poll and pull the lever for your biggest opponent.
They are our public servants by definition, but most abuse the system, and others are so out of touch with reality... Sad
_____________________
Re:Notes from the inside... (Score:2)
McGrath is wrong. A good portion of school funding comes from tuition, room/board, and the like. WHen you factor in that the students pay taxes and tuition/room/board, then they probably pay an appreciable fraction overall.
Also, at almost every university I've heard of, students pay for the in-room connection. As far as I'm concerned, that's close to ISP status.
Think about it: It makes sense (Score:2)
On the surface, having one-click access to porn in your room is different than having to go across the street to the gas station to buy a magazine. First difference: you don't have to pay to get access to internet porn (yes there are pay services, but we all know how much free stuff is out there). Second difference: you have an unlimited supply of porn on the internet. So in many ways the university is providing students with access to porn. If nothing else, this could fuel some addiction among those of little will power.
On a geek level, porn is a huge, huge bandwidth eater. It's based around huge image galleries and movies. Restricting access to such services, and also restricting, say, downloads of files larger than N megabytes (such as 120 MB game demos), is a good idea from a system administration point of view. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Incest is still A-OK too! Yee haw! (Score:2)
So I can still bring my sister up to my room... sweet!
"If you can't keep it in your pants, keep it in the family."
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
New Bill: (Score:2)
R-Glendale, students living in university residence halls would be
forced to work in labor camps every day, instead of attending class.
When asked to comment, Rep. McGrath told reporters, "Since college
students are such a burden on the state of Arizona, I thought we could
get some use out of them." When the reporter informed her that
students payed tuition to go to college, she replied "What? What is
tuition? We get nothing out of them when they just go to class
everyday. We have to put them to work."
As for her inspiration for the bill, McGrath sites attending college
in a Nazi Concentration Camp. She said when she was a student at
Aussenlager Langenstein-Zwieberge in the late 1940's, students had
"plenty of forced labor" outside of their dorm rooms, which she
described as "gas chambers." She also said gas chambers underwent a
"white glove" inspection each week, but now, no one cares how students
maintain the state's property.
--
I feel for you geeks in AZ.
Re:first amendment rights? (Score:2)
As an aside, I can practically here the plumetting enrollment rates at UofA
Dimes
Re:Skip the rherotic; Go for the military uniforms (Score:2)
Actually, no. Most foreigners see "the land of the free" as the sham it is. I don't look at the USA as free, I see it just as restrictive, if not worse, than *MANY* other countries. (I'm in Australia btw)
Re:I went to a strict school... (Score:2)
Abilene, Texas. Home of three (3) colleges associated with fundamentalist religious sects, all "enforcing" rules very much like those you describe.
Impact, Texas. Apparently a neighborhood that seceded from Abilene and ditched its anti-liquor laws in the process.
On Friday nights the traffic used to back up for miles on all sides of Impact, with students on their way over from Abilene to visit the liquor stores.
(A web search tells me that all this is just a footnote to history [utexas.edu], now.)
And yes, dorm rooms were choked with cigarette smoke and strewn with "fuck books". And students I didn't even know used to ask me if I knew where they could "cop a bag", presumably because my mildly long hair among the greater crowd of gyrines marked me for a dope-dealing hippie.
And there's that memorable day in the cafeteria, when I heard a skanky girl a few seats down the table summarizing her latest visit to the doctor for her friends without even lowering her voice, including his request that "couldn't she at least limit the number of her partners" to help get her problem under control.
Oh, the foolishness of those who long for Legislated Paradise (TM).
--
It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
Re:opposite sex (Score:3)
I wonder how you feel, though, about out-and-out Jew-hating racist Democratic politicians like the Rev. Al Sharpton in NYC? He led a riot against a Jewish shopkeeper (who was killed by a rioter. Thanks, Al.) and has said many many nasty things about Jews (and whites, too, of course.) Has he been repudiated by the Democrats? NO, Mrs. Clinton, Al Gore, Bill Bradley, and all the other pay him homage, in search of the Black Racist constituency, I guess. Not a word of criticism. And how about Jesse Jackson calling New York "Hymie-town"? It's like calling Chicago Spic-town. Is he criticized? Shunned? Of course not! He is fawned over.
You need to pay closer attention to who tolerates racists, and who repudiates them.
what about the job hunt? or Research? (Score:2)
So, what if I'm searching porno sites to find one that's hiring a webmaster? (...or a photographer? a programmer?)
What if I'm doing research on net porn? IRC? Hell, my 130-page senior thesis for my undergrad degree was written on conversation on the Internet, IRC comprising a large percentage of the research; and I've written numerous other papers on email, textual decoration, and speech acts on-line, using exmaples from every-day interaction in IRC, IM, email, web-chat rooms, etc.--some of which have been published, so they're not crap.
I mean, c'mon. Is the network going to pop up an alert dialog box on each log on, "Do you promise that your activities will be restricted to educational research and work? Y/N"
Re:first amendment rights? (Score:2)
> very much children in the eyes of the
> University. We are ass fucked by these
> institutions every day so why not this too.
Actually...
I picked up a copy of playboy a few months back
for the first time in years, its the one with the
jesse ventura interview.
Anyway, they had an article on this. Anyone who
is interested may wish to seek it out. It talked
about how Parents and legislators are pushing
universities backwards on the issues of students
rights and some "ugly terms" like "in parentis
locis" are making a come back.
> Ben, who is dropping out as soon as my loans
> are up
If you want more freedom do just that. I did.
A much better idea is to work for a University.
The pay sucks but the atmosphere (in my
experiance) tends to be more laid back and
the benefits are nice (I get to take 2 free
courses per semester)
Of course...whether you are truely "free" or not
at that point is even more matter of debate...
perhaps just a slave to the allmighty dollar,
without which you can not live,
However, that would be more aptly discussed
in a philosophy course
Re:It's Arizona allright (Score:2)
- 18 are in graduate school (MBA, PhD, or MD)
- 14 are working (most got entry salaries >$50k per year)
- 2 are "employed" as full-time mothers
So slam the Latter-day Saint moral code if you want, but don't try to argue against cold hard facts.--
Re:This may be the 1st step toward internet licens (Score:2)
This is clueless. Driving a car, flying a plane, broadcasting on public airwaves, and practicing law and medicine are regulated simply because they all have a direct impact on other people. In the case of driving, flying, or practicing medicine, that impact can be physically devastating to other people. In the case of broadcasting, regulation is required to let everyone have their very own frequency. And in the case of law, regulation is required to keep incompetent lawyers from ruining their clients' lives.
None of those have any resemblance to someone using the internet, or wanking over internet porn. Can you imagine needing a license to read books?
The DIFFERENCE between Traveling and Driving (Score:2)
Travelling is a RIGHT, Driving is a privilege. You DON'T need a license to travel.
I travel without one, and have yet to be given a ticket for speeding or for driving without a license.
Here is a list of DOCUMENTED rulings.
Driver Licensing vs. the Right to Travel [cmu.edu]
WHERE do the police get the jurisdiction to give you a ticket in the first place since the roads ARE PUBLIC!?
Probably because you don't have the Manufactor's Statement of Origin for your automobile:
Vehicle Manufacturer's Certificate/Statement of Origin [geocities.com]
Manufacturer's Statement of Origin - Key To ownership [205.218.170.194]
My automobile is NOT registered by the government, since it is MY property.
When you buy a new autmobile, WHY does the goverment want you to surrender the MSO?
Title transfer [mason.wa.us]
Licensing your new vehicle in Washington [clark.wa.us]
LOUISIANA OFFICE OF MOTOR VEHICLES VEHICLE REGISTRATION & TITLE [state.la.us]
Massachusetts Title Law [state.ma.us]
Speeding is NOT a crime, UNLESS you went to the government asking for permission (DRIVER'S LICENSE) to use their property (REGISTERED VEHICLE.) Remember Speeding != reckless driving.
If you don't want to be harassed by the good law officers, you can get an International Driver's Permit, which is valid in over 200 countries. No Socialist Slave Number is required.
Research the above links and see for yourself.
Cheers
Re:Skip the rherotic; Go for the military uniforms (Score:2)
No offense, but you obviously don't speak for "Most foreigners".
Re:first amendment rights? (Score:2)
Re:It's ironic... (Score:2)
Maybe you're the only Australian who can still get Slashdot...?
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Speak Out, GET ANGRY!!! (Score:2)
> 5% of them voted in the last election. Which >means the other 95% voted her in by not voting at >all.
I live a stone's throw from ASU, and I'd have to say this in their defense. More than 50% of these people were not old enough to vote in the last election.
Of those that would have been old enough to vote, they didn't live in Arizona.
One thing to realize about Arizona is that, generally, everybody who lives here has come from another state. This is even more so for ASU students.
With all due respect to people who were born and grew up in Arizona, you at least know what I'm talking about.
These persons may or may not have voted McGraff in, but you can't blame them for (1) not being citizens of that state and (2) not being old enough to vote in the past.
Another thing that may shock you, is that it's not ignorance and apathy that's getting these people in office, but strong support! The scariest detail of all this is how popular these strict, controlling attitudes are! Those who believe in individual freedom and freedom from religion-based government often find themselves in the minority, and on the losing side of politics! These people are not being elected by default!
not a court ruling (Score:2)
I have to disagree (even more offtopic) (Score:2)
the clothes you wear didn't really dictate the education.
I'm sure the army wouldn't win more wars if they can all dress the way they REALLY wanted to.
I think one of the biggest problem in America is that everyone overreacts on their "freedom of speech", on people "trampling on their rights", on the government "removing their freedom", so on so on. Obviously some cries are very much warranted (like DVD vs. MPAA for example), but most of them are just unjustified whining that equates to a kid "losing freedom" because he's not allowed to watch TV after 10 at night.
When people learn that not all restrictions and rules are oppression to our rights and freedom, maybe America's future will actually start turning around for the better.
Re:Investors, act NOW !! (Score:2)
Tempe Arizona.
Real estate for mundane, ugly places is already
in the $150-200 per square foot range.
Tempe is the "pretty" part of the Phoenix valley.
Generally, Phoenix looks like central LA, while
Tempe at least is bicycle friendly, has palm and fruit trees, and a bit of college-town atmosphere.
As far as jumping the rush for buying up the rental property? Forget it. And you can already get USWest DSL pretty much anywhere in Tempe, and Cox cable everywhere else.
Considering how flat the place is, Speedchoice (wireless net!) works quite well too!
I think if real estate goes up any more, people will start leaving here to go to Berkely or NYU, because of the lower cost of living in the Bay Area and NYC!!!! It's already outrageous.
The last apartment I looked at was a 1-br/1-bath,
20 feet from a (noisy as hell) railroad crossing.
$1350/month, minimum one-year lease. That's not quite like san jose or manhattan, but you get the idea.
Might be Fun (Score:2)
Sure, it was terrifying to think that you might hear her parent's car drive up at any second while you were otherwise occupied in the living room. Then again, it was exciting as well.
In fact, adding sneaking a member of the opposite sex into you dorm can be just as much fun. Of course, I wouldn't want to do it all the time, either.
----
Re:Crap (Score:2)
Great! But then it becomes a matter of priorities: Would you rather vote for someone who didn't censor but (let's say) raised taxes to pay for schools, or someone who did censor but would cut your taxes?
From your post, I'd call you more of a Libertarian than a Republican. Republican politicians support the religious right's agenda and stronger police powers, which Libertarians are against. I don't think Republican politicians vote very Libertarian at all, unless it happens to help large corporations who are their campaign contributors. Orrin Hatch himself said that if soft money were banned, it would be the end of the Republican party.
How to learn maturity (Score:4)
If there is no option of making wrong choices, then it's not self control.
From the news report, particularly:
and it might be taken that there is some unusual problem.Is that actually the case? I would think it possible. Or is this merely a knee-jerk reaction that they've noticed some new way of "getting porn."
As compared to the consideration that students could use the US Mail service to send a subscription card to get a subscription to Playboy or potentially something "racier."
Actually, that suggests something comparable... I'd think that the institution is not permitted by US law to tamper with the mail. Considerable "games" could be played by using the mail service...
Re:Skip the rherotic; Go for the military uniforms (Score:2)
Long Distance Service (Score:3)
Today, I expect it costs the phone companies more to track and account for it than it costs for them to provide the service.
This doesn't stop them from sending you bills.
The parallel is quite clear: The "powers that be" care a whole lot more about control than they do about the economics of the matter.
The same is true for organizational attempts to block things like phone sex services. Some organizations have concluded that it is mandatory to block the stuff. I'd think it cheaper to handle it after the fact, permitting people to abuse it, but making this a firing offense.
There would be some losses resulting from people being stupid; these costs are not likely to be as high as the costs of setting up the pre-blocking system. A couple of other benefits come in:
This Person Is Evil. (Score:2)
I don't use the word much, in fact, pretty much not at all.
But then I saw this quote:
McGrath responded to this scenario: a student uses a campus Internet connection to decide which political candidates to support. That person is misusing university equipment, she said, just as if she used her legislative office phone to make long-distance personal phone calls.
On the surface, this is just plain stupidity: She doesn't live in her office, whereas students live on campus. The fact that students--not just the state, but students are actually taking money and paying for housing gives them some modicum of personal privacy that you don't really get when you have a home you can go over to after you're done with work.
But this is something more.
Any politician that would intentionally attempt to quell political discourse on the basis of inappropriate usage of government resources deserves all the wrath that an educated populace can bring to bear. Beyond the sexism and agism--which in and of itself is grotesque beyond description--is the presumption that the ability to learn and understand the policies behind the hype is not a right but a priveledge; not even a duty as a concerned American but a hindrance upon its social stability.
Many have attacked the young as a means to win over the old; any damages that generational warfare might create are quelled by the fact that one wins more blocs from the old than even exist in the young. But this is beyond that. Every American, young and old, should look towards Mrs. McGrath as a symbol of total corruption--not from outside, mind you, but from deep within. For anyone who can believe that political discourse is something which much be controlled and quelled like just another hormonally induced phase has truly lost every last shred of respectability and honor as any kind of leader, and any lemmings that would accompany her sadly deserve whatever fate they may receive.
I will donate $20 to whoever runs against her in the next election.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Re:It's ironic... (Score:2)
Re:Actually, it has to do with Religious Right (Score:2)
Again, everything that the religious right is at odds with. You can't say "bullshit" on the air, or display nudity, or even talk about sex, and it's even hard to talk about breast cancer, pregnancy, or STD's (ignorance of which leads to serious problems for kids). Many fiction and nonfiction books are banned in schools by so-called "Christian" groups for even alluding to these topics.
As far as assembly goes, the Arizona politician in question thought about prohibiting different-sex association. In Tennessee, I know people who are harrassed because they're not Christian, and their children are harrassed at school.
I sincerely disagree. They are no more likely to vote than radical homosexuals or Pro-abortion types.
Actually, I've seen studies that indicate members of the religious right are something like twice as likely to vote as others. Unfortunately I don't have any links to those studies, but I've seen more than one.
I'm still wondering what a "radical homosexual" is. "Radical activist" maybe, but a person has no choice over whether or not they're gay.
Sentimentalism and change. (Score:2)
So how do you get them to notice they are being stripped of freedom? You project the current trend into the future--show them an exageration of what it could be like if they don't take a stand for themselves (by making changes in their state government in this case). Hopefully it will scare them. If juvenile rants help wake up even one college student, to convince him or her to start making changes now, then I am not going to keep my mouth shut because someone wants me to be sentimental about their past or wants me to hold their experience as something sacred. It isn't worth it.
This is ridiculous... (Score:2)
Re:Respect and School (Score:2)
I think there are two reasons why the older generation always tries this kind of thing on.
In the first place, there's definitely an element of culture shock. Each generation of teenagers deliberately invents its own culture and the whole point of it is that it *must* be different fronm what went before. After thirty years the difference in accepted modes of behaviour between the two generations is rather significant.
If this were all there probably wouldn't be any trouble (most of the time anyway) because most teenagers are sensible enough to exercise discretion in their illicit experimentations. There would be a moderate amount of drinking, pot smoking and sex going on behind the scenes but nothing really publicly obvious.
But there is the second factor: that in any given generation there is a spectrum of personality types.
Legislators, Judges and University administrators are very often going to be conservative control freaks, because that's what made them choose those careers in the first place.
And in any given generation of teenagers there will be a small proportion of assholes who refuse to exercise discretion, who will seem hellbent on creating a confrontation with the aforementioned authoritarians, and thereby ruining things for everybody. You all know the type of person I'm talking about. Like the STD-ridden slut bragging loudly in public about how many partners she slept with that week (yuck). Or the halfwit who gets drunk and trashes the dorm then shits on the bonnet of somebody's car.
These two personality types do not mix well.
If only all college kids could exercise a little discretion and consideration for the sensibilities of others less...er...liberated...than themselves, and if only the authorities concerned could try to remember that one or two bad apples needn't be representative of the whole bunch. If only, then we could all just party on in peace.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Nuts (Score:2)
Think about this:
University dorms cost more to live in than rent in an apartment (in 95 I paid $1000/sem to share a dorm room, and the next year I paid half of $450/mo+phone,electric for a 2 br apt.) I fail to see how $500/mo for ONE ROOM has to be subsidized by taxpayers money.
And don't the students pay a technology fee? They started charging us $450/semester for some sort of technology fee. If the AZ students are paying one, then again, I fail to see how it's being subsidized by taxpayers' money.
College students are adults. They can walk down to the porn shop and buy themselves a playboy. They LIVE in the dorm room, and if they didn't, they'd be old enough to get themselves an apartment where they don't HAVE opposite sex rules. This ain't the '50s anymore. This ain't a Mormon (or ) college.
Even without the rules, students would still flunk out, they can find other things to waste their time with, or even buy a freakin dial up account for $12 a month to download their porn with.
The College Pipeline (Score:2)
A number of my frinds from highschool have ended up dropping out and coming home to work or go to a local CC rather than a big state school, not because they are stupid but because they do not have the motivation necesary to go into a four year program at a major university. They were tired of it and ready to quit by junior or senior year in HS, and slapping "University" on the name of their school is not going to change that.
Realizing that education really is a pipeline to success, I do think that we should encourage people to go to college. I am not mandating testing to decide who becomes a Morlock and whoe becomes the Eloi, but I think schools need to ditch the idea that absolutely everyone needs to go to college. There are any number of perfectly good people who don't want or need to go to college, or who aren't capable of keeping up with the work and requirements. Yeah, some people do party too hard their freshman year and that is what knocks them out of school, but I know personally people that has happened to, and it is as much because they didn't want to be there as it was that they just couldn't help themselves and needed government attention.
Here's why... (Score:3)
Reminds me of a quote from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman. I can't remember the quote exactly, but here's a rough paraphrase: "The idiot may point out that the Emperor has no clothes. But the idiot remains an idiot, and the Emperor remains an Emperor."
The point: uniforms may cover up a symbol, but they don't solve the problem behind it. It seems that, anymore, kids are being raised with a basic lack of respect for anyone or anything, the most important lack of respect being for each other. No uniforms will cover that problem up; only education will. Uniforms are a mere quick-fix.
Now, you ask why it's acceptable when grownups in various professions wear uniforms? Here are a few examples:
Those are just a few examples. And the point is, they all serve some purpose. School uniforms are nothing more than pretentious cover-ups for the real problems facing our schools and children today. I came from a high school with such a dress code, so I know what uniforms do and don't do. I've seen administrators use them as tools to manipulate the students. I saw one director who used them as an excuse to basically ogle and grope students, male and female alike (thankfully he didn't last long).
Never once did I see uniforms stop anyone from ostracizing anyone else. They never stopped any fights, nor did they prevent any other kind of rule infractions. They didn't increase school spirit at all; if anything they lowered it. On the few days when the dress codes were relaxed, no one seemed to extol the "convenience" of uniforms; everyone dressed as themselves, and you know what? There was no evidence of the "fashion-slavery" uniform advocates claim happens when uniforms aren't present (that bit about "the kids all wear uniforms now anyway" is complete and total crap, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise).
All the uniforms did was feed the school's ego. That's all school uniforms ever do. They suppres the individual in the very enviornment that's supposed to teach students to live, do, and think for themselves.