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Lead PHP Developer Quits 809

Posted by CowboyNeal
from the changing-of-the-guard dept.
Jasper Bryant-Greene writes "Jani Taskinen, one of the lead developers of the Zend Engine (the engine that powers PHP), as well as a lead developer for the thread safety system and other core components of the PHP project, has quit in a relatively cryptic message to the php-internals mailing list. Jani has been involved with PHP for about 6 years and his loss will undoubtedly be a big blow for the PHP project."
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Lead PHP Developer Quits

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  • Looks like... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by brockbr (640130) on Friday July 28, 2006 @07:53AM (#15797632)
    Looks like someone may need to wrestle their account back
  • by Saven Marek (739395) on Friday July 28, 2006 @07:57AM (#15797642)
    This looks like any 15 year old's "I won't be coming back here and you all suck" stormouts. The ones that happen each week, and he'll be back within a few hours.

    Why is this on slashdot?
  • by Klaidas (981300) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:01AM (#15797651)
    Well, I'm not a phychologist or anything, but I think you may be right for the first part of the post - it seems he got angry with someone
    I'm sure most people (the ones who matter) can understand why.

    But I don't think he will come back, at leat any time soon. After leaving like that, well, at least I wouldn't.
  • Re:Hmmmmm (Score:5, Insightful)

    by laffer1 (701823) <luke@@@foolishgames...com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:07AM (#15797670) Homepage Journal
    But that was at a php conference...

    Why is it such a shock to some that a developer got burned out working on the same code. Open source developers are often not appreciated. A few get paid and many don't. Its just constant nagging for new features or bug fixes. There are rewarding aspects too. Maybe he wanted to do something with php that hasn't happened. He was involved with thread safety and that hasn't seemed important to many people. Personally I'd like to see thread safe php so I could play with some of the apache mpms...
  • by jkrise (535370) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:14AM (#15797686) Journal
    With an attitude like this, the fact that this chap's leaving, is actually a good news for the future of PHP. No open source project can afford devleopers with such bloated egos. And especially at the top, it's better to have less hot-headed souls, talking in a decent, humane manner.

    I could not care less. Take care. Please do not reply to this email. --Jani
              p.s. Delete my CVS account. I have no use for it anymore.


    Sometimes I wonder when Linus uses phrases like 'Kicks Ass' 'Couldn't care less' etc., (I refer to his fruity prose in the debate on microkernels) whether he's really suited to his job. Projects like Linux and PHP have a very high reputation, it is unbecoming of bigwigs to talk and act like Ballsmers.
     
  • WTF! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bloodredsun (826017) <martin@@@bloodredsun...com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:17AM (#15797691) Journal

    Must....throw....all....toys...out....of........ pram!

    If that is a legitimate message and his account hasn't been hacked then that is a top quality hissy fit! This is one of those things that will haunt him in the future as something that was posted in anger

  • Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ethan Allison (904983) * <slashdot@neonstream.us> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:31AM (#15797743) Homepage
    Maybe we should stop wondering about him. For all we know, he's got problems with other things in his life. Let's stop making assumptions about the poor guy. If I was Jani and saw all this psychoanalysis going on about me, I'd definitely tell whoever was doing it to shut the fuck up.
  • Re:Shock! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dsginter (104154) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:32AM (#15797750)
    That was the first thing that I noticed.

    As a side note, I would just like to thank all of the geeks here on /. for their English Nazism. It may seem like unnecessary ranting to some, but I've learned to break quite a few bad habits just from daily reading. Some people actually go so far as to put grammar tips into their sigs.

    Along these lines, I find it fascinating that topics like Haiku and Iambic Pentameter can often get a ton of posts.

    A curious bunch, we are.
  • by ettlz (639203) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:32AM (#15797760) Journal
    Sometimes I wonder when Linus uses phrases like 'Kicks Ass' 'Couldn't care less' etc.
    Come, now. Linus himself admits to being a "bastard". And what does that make De Raadt?! Let's not get bogged down with cults of personality here. On the whole, they do a good job. Long may they reign.
  • by Enderandrew (866215) <enderandrewNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:32AM (#15797761) Homepage Journal
    Let me get this straight. People are making pretty nasty judgments based on one terse post that may or may not be legitimate. And in that moment we forget and discount everything he has done over the past six years.

    As a volunteer he gave a great deal back to the world. You call him childish. I say he is entitled to walk away without having to explain himself.
  • by Scarblac (122480) <slashdot@gerlich.nl> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:33AM (#15797764) Homepage

    If they deliver the code and can keep the project together with their style, then can act how they want. Linus, RMS, Theo de Raadt - they have their quirks (Linus much less than the others), but the code speaks for itself.

    Since you're going as far as to question Linus suitability for his job (architecting his hobby project that conquered the world) - where's your wildly succesful open source project?

  • by hey! (33014) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:38AM (#15797781) Homepage Journal
    It's not that different from what adults do though.

    Recently, I read an interesting book by a psychologist named Paul Eckman. OK it wasn't an interesting book, it was a tedious book on a fascinating subject.

    A couple of the takeways from the book: emotions are persistant mental states that are triggered by situations that bear on your future well being, and in turn trigger certain stereotyped survival related behaviors. In an emotional state, people do not process new information that would contradict the survival behavior. In other words, once you get to fighting, or to running away, you aren't going to listen to reason until you've fought it out or have run far, far away. The psychologists therefore call emotional states refractory, which is a word I learned from EE "Doc" Smith which when applied to metal means hard to work and when applied to a state of mind means hard to work with.

    I've sometimes seen job listings looking for people who are passionate about their work. I'm not so sure this the right thing to look for unless you are looking for a short term employee. All jobs involve having your desires frustrated from time to time. As your emotions build up, your ability to process new information and ideas that could help you overcome your frustrations is diminished, because atavistic survival behaviors related to conflict and survival begin to strangle your productiivty.

    In that case, the best thing is to take yourself out of the situation, which in all liklihood your own behavior contributes to.

    You can take two people who are miserable and underperforming in their jobs, have them swap jobs, and suddenly they'll feel a great relief and surge of productivity, as they work flexibly around the exact same kinds of problems that had them stymied in their original job.

    Unless you're some kind of Zen master you're going to run into this sooner or later. When you reach the point where you can't perform up to your potential, even your potential as defined by the less than perfect work situation you're in, it's time to move on. This is probably why academia, infamous for its harsh and pointless politics, evolved the institution of the sabbatical. But for the rest of us, this means quitting and getting a new job.

    The emotions expressed in the email are probably universal. They do not in themselves indicate immaturity However, one thing that you do learn as you get older is when you feel strong negative emotions towards other people, hiding them is the best first reaction. In most cases you cannot change other people, especially if you are terminating your relationship to them. So the best you might hope for from negativity in the way you do this is some kind of catharsis, or perhaps some kind of public vindication. However experience teaches you don't often get those, and when you do they aren't as satisfying as you imagined them being.

    Above the simple futilty of showing your anger and disappointment, expressions of strong negative emotion evoke an equal, if not stronger reaction from their targets. Often this ignites a round of petty retribution that comes back to haunt you.

    So when it becomes impossible to deal with the emotional climate of work, leave. But always leave with a kind and magnanimous word. In the end that serves you best.

  • by Mjlner (609829) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:44AM (#15797817) Journal
    "With an attitude like this, the fact that this chap's leaving, is actually a good news for the future of PHP. No open source project can afford devleopers with such bloated egos. And especially at the top, it's better to have less hot-headed souls, talking in a decent, humane manner."

    Bah! You're reading too much into his words. As I see it, what he's trying to say is that the reasons to him leaving are personal, but obvious for some poeple involved. Also, he does not want to start pointing fingers and does not feel he owes anybody an explanation. Perhaps you see this as behaving like a primadonna, but hardly hot-headed behaviour. He doesn't insult anybody in his post, although he obviously wants to and he refrains from whining about whatever he's unhappy about.

  • Move along (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Billosaur (927319) * <wgrotherNO@SPAMoptonline.net> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:51AM (#15797853) Journal

    Lead developer for Zend engine of PHP quits... pandemonium and chaos ensue!

    Please! Happens all the time; guy/gal works on project for a zillion years, sits down one day in front of their terminal, calls up the code, gives it a glance and goes: I can't freakin' do this anymore! I worked on one project for three years and it was blessed when I was finally released from my contract and moved on to other things. I was proud of the app, don't get me wrong, but if I had to finagle the code yet again for the umpteenth time, I was going to lose what remains of my mind.

    Whatever the reason, he's gone. Move along... nothing to see here.

  • Cryptic? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rbarreira (836272) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:52AM (#15797861) Homepage
    Relatively cryptic? I think it couldn't be clearer.
  • by Rik Sweeney (471717) on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:57AM (#15797902) Homepage
    I don't know about anyone else, but somedays you love the project you're working on and other days you wish it would burn down, fall over and sink into the swamp.

    He's probably not serious.
  • by Ender Ryan (79406) <[ ] ['' in gap]> on Friday July 28, 2006 @08:57AM (#15797905) Journal
    Well, I don't like PHP either... but seriously, get bent =P

    Seriously, who are YOU to tell people what to do with their time?
  • Re:Move along (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Billosaur (927319) * <wgrotherNO@SPAMoptonline.net> on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:01AM (#15797925) Journal

    To me, same difference. It doesn't matter what the root causes are: slow coding, bugs, power struggles, idiotic requirements. There comes a point where coding the same thing day in and day out given all that's going on around you is impossible. It sucks your energy and creativity away, until the code all blurs together you and can't even remember what you wrote five minutes ago.

  • Reason: burnout (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pieterh (196118) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:13AM (#15798004) Homepage
    Burnout is a very commom symptom in all kinds of volunteer organisations, open source being one of the ones see more about on Slashdot.

    The causes are quite straight-forward. When we do something for other people, we need some kind of reward. It can come in many forms - appreciation, money, reputation, status. The best rewards change over time and are a good mix of all these.

    Open source projects consume people, with demands on their time, social life, professional capacity. The only rewards tend to be reputation. Depending on the invidual's personal life and other demands (family, job), they can sustain a heavy open source project for a few years, and as many as five or six. At some point, it either becomes a profession (with a wage) or a problem.

    All volunteer organisations have this problem and it's exacerbated by peer pressure. If everyone else is spending 80 hours a week hacking, then it seems normal to spend 81. At some points, open source projects can seem like cults, and unintentionally adopt many cult techniques to keep people involved, whatever the personal cost.

    (Those techniques include isolation from family, use of secret languages, separation from real time and real life, etc. I don't *think* any OS projects do this on purpose, though I have my secret doubts about the FSF. Just kidding, Richard!)

    I've seen burnout cases so severe the persons involved were literally sick, unable to function normally any more, and needing psychiatric help. In other cases it's project-specific. I've had this on open source projects, where after five years I've just abandoned the software, telling the users, "sorry, it's not working any more".

    Each person has different needs, but eventually if we don't get what we need, we get sick. Young people are especially vulnerable because they don't understand their own needs very well and neglect them easily.

    The upside is that burnout is easily cured by a change of scene and some tangible rewards. Some people even come back to projects they've abandoned, but it can be very difficult. A good dose of selfishness ("what do I need in order to feel happy NOW") is always useful, and a good self-protection measure in many environments, open source groups included.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:16AM (#15798019)
    Jani was contributing to an Israeli company. Probably for free. Helping an Israeli company helps the Israeli government. Helping the Israeli government helps the Isreali Defense Foces which in turn kills hundreds of civilians. Also realise that companies have both the ability and the right to critizise its government. Zend Technologies have not done so and therefore their inaction makes responsible.

    That is not to say that Jani's IRC comments weren't very much out of line and tasteless(but the log is probably a hoax). An ability to separate ethnicity (Jew) from nationality (Israel) is essential unless you want to sound racist. A better approach might have been to try and pressure Zend into issuing a statement critizising the killing of innocent civilians. There are very many contributors to PHP that are concerned about the escalating conflict in Lebanon.
  • by KevinIsOwn (618900) <herrkevin&gmail,com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:20AM (#15798043) Homepage
    You need to look up the definition of terrorism. Then I think you should go read a few news articles about Israeli unilateral withdrawl from previously occupied areas. Then go and tell me about Israeli government "terrorism."
  • by HaloZero (610207) <protodeka@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:25AM (#15798074) Homepage
    Maybe they don't have a problem following instructions.

    He did explicitly say in no uncertain terms 'Do not reply to this email.'
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:27AM (#15798086)
    Israel has the right to defend itself.

    Indeed.

    However, which one of the four unarmed UN observers killed in the attack was a threat to Israel's existence or its people?

  • by pimpimpim (811140) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:27AM (#15798095)
    Hmm, the poster of this log seems to have a history of posts marked 'Troll', which might be an indication.

    Still, someone would have a reason to make a fake irc log in this direction, which can only be done if they'd have a personal grudge against this guy. So if this log is not fake, then it's probably good for everyone that he quit, if it is fake, then it's also clear why there was an atmosphere for him to quit.

    The fact that people reason like the one in this log is really shocking, but true. People didn't seem to have learned anything about that we really need to be careful judging people: Not all muslims are terrorists, not all jews are responsible of this action of the Israeli government. Not all people put on the blacklist by air marshalls are a threat for your country. Thinking in black/white contrasts is not only bad for others, it is also very bad for yourself!

  • by LarsWestergren (9033) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:30AM (#15798110) Homepage Journal
    Come on mods. Copy and pasted IRC logs, posted without a referencing link, +5? Even if this DOES turn out to be from him, does this really need to be posted here on Slashdot?

  • Re:Shock! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:31AM (#15798116)

    The phrase "I could care less" is a sarcastic version of "I couldn't care less."

    You might assume that from seeing it written down, but I've heard it spoken aloud many times and everybody that has done so has used it in a non-sarcastic way.

    It's nice of you to assume that the people saying "could care less" are trying to be sarcastic, but the overwhelming evidence is that they are simply stupid and ignorant.

  • by ben there... (946946) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:37AM (#15798156) Journal
    That doesn't appear to be a complete transcript. Specifically:
    _sniper_ hehehehe..
    _sniper_ all other members of the UN security council wanted to condemn Israel for attacking the UN post but USA (freedom and democracy) vetoed it....Israel says the resolution was fair.
    _sniper_ hell yeah..
    _sniper_ NUKE ISRAEL!

    What's he saying "hell yeah..." and "hehehehe.." to? It seems completely incongruous with the rest of his statements, unless something was left out.
  • by Bogtha (906264) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:42AM (#15798184)

    With an attitude like this, the fact that this chap's leaving, is actually a good news for the future of PHP. No open source project can afford devleopers with such bloated egos. And especially at the top, it's better to have less hot-headed souls, talking in a decent, humane manner.

    Okay, you've accused him of:

    • having a bad attitude,
    • having a bloated ego,
    • being hot-headed and
    • acting in an inhuman manner

    All this from simply quitting and not wishing to be associated with a project any more? He didn't accuse anybody of anything, he didn't rant and rave, he said he was leaving and wasn't coming back. How is that anything like the attitude you describe?

  • Re:Shock! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by caluml (551744) <<gro.mulac.erehseogmaps> <ta> <todhsals>> on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:47AM (#15798218) Homepage
    The phrase "I could care less" is a sarcastic version of "I couldn't care less."

    As a Brit, (a nation with arguably some of the best sarcasm/irony in comedy), I would say that I don't find it sarcastic in the least. It just sounds absurd and stupid.
    So, if you're using it for sarcastic effect, don't bother.
  • by amabbi (570009) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:51AM (#15798254)
    Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself as any other country would, BUT i call attacking the civilian population, the utilities and other civilian infrastructure the right response for a extremist movement kiddnapping two (2) people.

    This tripe is moderated +4, Insightful? You've got to be kidding me.

    This is not the first-- and if Hezbollah carries out it's promises, not the last time Hezbollah will kidnap an Israeli citizen and hold it for ransom. The last time, in 2000, Hezbollah kidnapped 5 Israelis and held them in exchange for 450 prisoners.

    Lebanon sat by and did nothing in that time to curb the spread, influence and armament of Hezbollah. Hezbollah knowingly and willingly invaded Israeli territory AFTER Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon-- the original stated goal of Hezbollah, btw. They promised and delivered on more violence against Israeli targets-- including Israeli civilian targets. Doesn't the rain of missiles from Lebanon-based Hezbollah terrorists on Israeli cities indicate just how futile the Lebanese government has been in curbing their terrorist activities?

    Also bear in mind that the rest of the world excluding USA has condemmed the strikes, but USA can't even think that it's pet nation, the israel, would do anything wrong.

    The US, Britain, Germany, and France has repeatedly asserted that Israel has a right to self defense. And tell me, what choice does Israel have? They aren't intentionally targeting civilian targets, but Hezbollah has chosen to use Lebanese non-combatants as human shields. The UN is useless-- I'm sure Israel will not soon forget the UN "peacekeepers" abandonning Israel in 1967. Diplomacy will not work if your opponent wants to see you dead above all other options.

  • by Cederic (9623) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:52AM (#15798267) Journal

    I'm sorry, I respect people that act on principle.

    Leaving something he clearly has had strong ties to as a point of principle is not a small matter.

    I wouldn't ask someone to act against their conscience just to boost an open source project.
  • by Androclese (627848) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:53AM (#15798276)
    Hezbollah has seats in the Lebanon Government; therefore they are part of Lebanon. In addition, Hezbollah does take orders from their primary benefactors... that would be Iran in case you missed the memo.

    Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon in compliance with a UN resolution; the so-called "Land for Peace" act. It was obviously a stupid move since Lebabon was not ready to assume control over their own country. Once they left, Hezbolla started assaulting Israel again.

    Didn't you find it interesting that of the 1600+ missles that Hezbolla has launched at Israel since this more recent conflict has started, not a single one of them was launched at their military? Even when Israel was staging their tanks up on the border, making for a perfect and easy target, the Hezbollah missles continued to land in the population areas.

    Hezobllah's stated goal is the death of every Jew. They preach a doctrine that the Holocaust of WWII is "a European lie and conspiracy to take land from the Arabs and Persians". There are, maybe 5 million Jew's in Israel and over 500 million gentiles around them that want them all dead. *THAT* is what they are defending themselves against.

    Their actions are defensive and justified. If there is going to be peace, Hezbolla needs to stand down, disarm, and give back Lebanon to the Lebanese people.

    As to these points from you:

    Israel is bombing Lebanon "in order to save Israeli lives". Why are Israeli lives inherently more worth than Lebanese lives?
    Nobody said they were, but Israel is defending its people from Hezbolla. That means war.

    Why should we accept that Israel is murdering innocent people just to increase it's lebensraum?
    Nice... a Nazi reference, that really makes your argument so much stronger.

    And what "restraint" are you talking about? That they haven't been putting Arabs in gas chambers, yet? At this pace, they soon will!

    Seriously! This is Poland 1939 all over again!

    First, it is sickly ironic that you are talking about the gas chambers when most of the Middle East belives that it never happened in the first place.

    Second, you are making wild assumptions about something Israel has not done and would never do. If you plan on being taken seriously, don't make arguments like this.
  • by Dhalka226 (559740) on Friday July 28, 2006 @09:57AM (#15798302)

    Since you're going as far as to question Linus suitability for his job (architecting his hobby project that conquered the world) - where's your wildly succesful open source project?

    One needs a wildly successful open source project to criticize somebody's leadership of some other wildly successful open source project?

    I suppose that one would also need to be the leader of a country with population of 300 million to criticize the job performance of the US president. Or perhaps be a highly respected engineer with specialty in safety to know that the Ford Pintos bursting into flame at the slightest provocation a couple decades ago wasn't a good thing.

    Please.

  • Ironic (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lbbros (900904) on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:11AM (#15798387) Homepage
    Ironic that a former "peacekeeper" says "Nuke"... Very lame, regardless of the reason.
  • by Just Some Guy (3352) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:19AM (#15798430) Homepage Journal
    Even if this DOES turn out to be from him, does this really need to be posted here on Slashdot?

    Yeah, it does. When someone states that they want to join the Nazis to genocide a race, that should be public information. 2AM on IRC or not, it's obvious he meant it.

    And as a side not, he's screwed if this article somehow becomes the top Google hit for his name. He could pretty much forget ever working in his field again. Which, all things considered, is perfectly fine by me.

  • by HighOrbit (631451) * on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:35AM (#15798566)
    Civilians are caught in the crossfire. That is horrible. But Israel is not purposely "attacking the civilian population" as you allege. Israel is attacking military targets that Hezbollah has purposly intermingled amongst civilians. In fact, Israel has taken pains to inform civilians (and thereby tip off Hezbollah too) before attacks by dropping leaflets that basically say "We know there is a Hezbollah ammo dump here, flee now because we will attack soon". Hezbollah purposely endangers the civilans in Lebanon by hiding amongst them. It does this to 1) make the Israelis pause and be reluctant to immediately attack, and 2) when the Israelis do attack, Hezbollah wants to increase the civilian bodycount so they can say "See all the civilans Israel killed!".

    If you want to talk about purposely "Attacking Civilians", then you should be pointing the finger at Hezbollah. They are lobbing unguided missles at Isreali cities. When they launch a missle, they can't tell in advance where it will land other than somewhere inside a city. This is indiscrimate bombing of a civlian population.

    No state, including Israel, can tolerate either unprovoked attacks on its military or any attack at all on its civilian population. Hezbollah is not a state. It has no sovereign right to maintain an army or make war. Those are rights restricted to states. Any armed action at all by Hezbollah is illegal. Even if it had the right to maintain an army (which it does not) it engages in tactics that are forbidden by international law (hiding amongst civilians, purposely attacking civilians, etc). It's military arm exists for two illegal reasons : threaten Israel and intimidate other Lebanese.

    If Israel stops before Hezbollah is either disarmed or destroyed, it will have a continuing military threat on its border; a threat that indiscriminatly attacks its civilian population. No reasonable state will tolerate that as an end solution.

    Here is they way this should play out. The UN has already ordered Hezbollah to disarm. See UN resolution 1559 [wikipedia.org]. The resoluation calls for removal of Syrian troops (done), deployment of Lebanese Gov't forces in southern Lebanon, and disbanding of all Lebanese militias (meaning Hezbollah since they are the only one left). Hezbollah has refused to disband and has blocked deployment of the Lebanese Army (Hezbollah is stronger). For resolutation 1559 to be carried out, Hezbollah will have to be forecebly disarmed (by Lebanon [not going to happen], by a UN force [too squimish to happen], or by Israel [now you see what is going on]. Once Hezbollah is disarmed or distroyed, then a new stronger UN force (current UN force is a joke) or NATO force will occupy southern lebanon, and allow the Israelis to withdraw. Once the Israelis (and Hezbollah) are gone, then the Lebanese Army and Police will deploy into the south and secure the border. This is the only long term solution for peace. An immediate cease-fire and return to status-quo-ante is only a recipe for continued periodic warfare. Hezbollah must disarm or be destroyed for long term peace to have a chance.
  • by Alpelopa (864348) on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:35AM (#15798571)
    The tone and context of Mr. Taskinen's message looks uncomfortably familiar. I've seen a number of friends suffer bouts of depression -- for some reason, particularly the bright ones. A talented guy like this has many professional options and there's no reason to exit a project in this way no matter how compelling the reasons to move on. Of course, I could be very wrong. But I would suggest that if one's friend is in such a situtation, it's definitely worth taking the time to talk with the person to see what's going on.
  • by Just Some Guy (3352) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:39AM (#15798601) Homepage Journal
    Jani just returned from a 6 month peace-keeping tour in Afgahnistan, one of his co-workers was killed in what was called a deliberate attack on a UN position.

    I was part of the peacekeeping mission in Mogadishu, Somalia. Several of my "co-workers" were killed in very deliberate attacks against US and UN forces. However, if I came home and said that I wanted to join Aryan Nations to kill me some black people, I'd be (rightfully) shunned from polite society.

    I can empathize with Jani, probably more than can 99.9% of Slashdotters, but that doesn't make his outburst acceptable. Understandable, sure, but acceptable.

  • by tehcyder (746570) on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:42AM (#15798628) Journal
    Israel is murdering innocent people just to increase it's lebensraum? And what "restraint" are you talking about? That they haven't been putting Arabs in gas chambers, yet? At this pace, they soon will!

    Seriously! This is Poland 1939 all over again!

    I nominate this for the "Slashdot tasteless post of the year 2006" award.

  • Re:Shock! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Hoi Polloi (522990) on Friday July 28, 2006 @10:56AM (#15798729) Journal
    No, it is just lazy English. Just like how people say "ATM Machine" instead of just "ATM" or "irregardless".
  • Re:Shock! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lawpoop (604919) on Friday July 28, 2006 @11:07AM (#15798816) Homepage Journal
    "As a Brit, (a nation with arguably some of the best sarcasm/irony in comedy),..."

    Yes, some of the best sarcasm and irony in comedy, but when it comes to party-pooping, being a wet towel, and snootiness, nobody beats the British!
  • Israeli reprisals (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28, 2006 @11:10AM (#15798840)

    Israel, the land of "Bomb first, play the victim later"

    The Israeli response to the capture of two of it's soldiers reminds me of the Nazi reprisals for the Czech assasination of Reinhard Heydrich [wikipedia.org]. I guess Isreal's leaders learned a lot from them.

  • Re:Shock! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Lifewolf (41986) on Friday July 28, 2006 @11:25AM (#15798977)

    Try and get someone who says "I could care less" to tell you if they mean that sarcastically or not.

    Did you really just use "try and" in this discussion, of all places? Please, please tell me doing so was an attempt at humor.
  • by robinjo (15698) on Friday July 28, 2006 @11:29AM (#15799014)

    If it's true, that's a nice little bit of anti-Semitism at the end. He may want to be anti-Israel, but he's just exposed himself as a garden-variety anti-Semite, too.

    Writing as a fellow Finn, I can assure you that most people here don't know the difference between Jews and Israel. I'm sure Jani only has hard opinions against the government and the politics of the Israel state.

    Furthermore, I really think that the anti-semitist card has been used for far too long already. Hitler did a horrible crime against Jews but Israel shouldn't use that to gain political advantage any more. Israel is not the weak little victim in this conflict.

  • by stry_cat (558859) on Friday July 28, 2006 @12:02PM (#15799359) Journal

    I don't really think this IRC log is true. PHP has been linked to Zend since PHP3. Zend has had some serious links to Isreal since the beginning. According to http://www.zend.com/company/management [zend.com] Zeev Suraski is a graduate of the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology as is Andi Gutmans. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Php [wikipedia.org]

    Zeev Suraski and Andi Gutmans, two Israeli developers at the Technion - Israel Institute of Technology, rewrote the parser in 1997 and formed the base of PHP 3, changing the language's name to the recursive initialism "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor". The development team officially released PHP/FI 2 in November 1997 after months of beta testing. Public testing of PHP 3 began immediately and the official launch came in June 1998. Suraski and Gutmans then started a new rewrite of PHP's core, producing the Zend engine in 1999.[2] They also founded Zend Technologies in Ramat Gan, Israel, which is actively involved with PHP development.

    The link as been there since the late 1990's. So if Jani had these views he wouldn't have started with PHP in the early 2000's.

    Also if he really believed this, he most likely would have said something about it in his message so as to help damage the project. His messsage was clearly crafted to get him out of the project immediately without causing a major problem (of course /. will make a mountain out of a molehill anyday). It's pretty obvious he's leaving over some kind of interpersonal relation problem with some or all of the team. Instead of making accusations, hurling insults, or trying to damage people's reputation, he's taken the honorable way out and qickly leaves. Yes this makes some of the uninformed masses speculate but this is going a little far even for the /. crowd.

  • by Erwos (553607) on Friday July 28, 2006 @12:02PM (#15799367)
    Sure, but the problem is, if you can't make the distinction between Jews and Israelis, any serious hatred towards Israelis promptly carries over towards Jews. This is part of the problem with the whole "anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic" paradigm - one seems to lead directly to the other in many cases. I refer you to The Journal of Conflict Resolution [yale.edu] for more information about this phenomenon.

    I never, ever intended to say that Finns were all Jew-haters, and I definitely don't believe that. I am saying that anti-Israeli sentiment in Europe often carries over into anti-Jewish sentiment.

    I also don't get your whole "holocaust guilt trip" thing. Who's using the holocaust to rationalize stopping Hezbollah from kidnapping Israeli soldiers and launching artillery strikes against Haifa?

    -Erwos
  • by chill (34294) on Friday July 28, 2006 @12:06PM (#15799405) Journal
    Israel was able to make peace with Egypt and Jordan. They returned captured land, the Sinai, when Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist. I believe Syria is refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist and thus isn't getting the Golan Hights back until they do.

    Hamas doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist, either, so they get they ass handed to them on a plate.

    Gotta love the Arab argument about willing to live with Israel at the 1967 borders -- AFTER they lost three wars with them. Had they been so willing in 1967, none of this would be an issue.

      Charles
  • nitpicking (Score:3, Insightful)

    by orzetto (545509) on Friday July 28, 2006 @12:16PM (#15799491)

    As an Italian I would be honoured to be among Semitic peoples, but we happen to be indoeuropean too.

    I agree that anti-semitic is horrifyingly abused, especially by the Israeli government who comprehensibly want to use a strong argument against anyone opposing them exploiting the past history of Europe. But this gradually weakens the racist connotation of the term, and gradually makes it political. The Nazis wanted to kill Jews because their leaders told them the Jews, all Jews, were the root of all evil. Now children hear the word anti-semite applied on people who criticise the bombing of Beirut. A few more years and people will start calling themselves anti-semite in the sense of anti-Israeli-government...

    The funny thing, actual anti-semites are immune from all this. I never heard Israel berating Poland, where "genuine", old-style anti-semitism is still in (even though there are no more Jews left, but you don't need a brain to be racist). Not that I am an expert on Poland, but there were a few articles in the news some weeks ago. In Italy, Silvio Berlusconi is seem as more Israel-friendly than left-wing Romano Prodi, even though Berlusconi was allied to the worst and most hardline fascists in the recent election, including former terrorists, naziskins and holocaust deniers like Luca Romagnoli.

  • by maxpublic (450413) on Friday July 28, 2006 @01:07PM (#15799988) Homepage
    Just remember that most of these morons are pissed over the fact that they don't have anything like the talent or ability of the people they're complaining about, and for them this is as close as they'll ever get to 'payback' for the fact that they're insignificant nobodies grinding out the day in obscurity. Y'know, the same sort of people who're convinced that if it weren't for thing X,Y, and Z (oh! the unfairness of the universe!) they'd be rich, famous, and and sexually experienced with something a bit more humanoid than a RealDoll.

    Max
  • by aardvarkjoe (156801) on Friday July 28, 2006 @01:52PM (#15800399)

    "At 9:05 AM local time (06:05 CET), on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated a Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and villages of northern Israel, injuring at least 8 Israelis[18]. Afterwards, a ground contingent of Hezbollah militants attacked two Israeli armored Humvees on a routine patrol along the Israel-Lebanon border near the Israeli village of Zar'it with anti-tank rockets, capturing two Israeli soldiers, and killing eight." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_ conflict [wikipedia.org])

    But it supports your position a lot better to pretend that all they did was capture a couple soldiers, and Israel started the whole thing, right?

  • Come on guys.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zds (12020) on Friday July 28, 2006 @02:35PM (#15800804) Homepage
    Yeah, it does. When someone states that they want to join the Nazis to genocide a race, that should be public information. 2AM on IRC or not, it's obvious he meant it.


    I think many of you guys need to readjust your sense of proportionality. This guy has most likely done more to both world peace _and_ open source world than 99% of the whiners on this forum.. and now you are mocking him for not revealing some interpersonal issues and saying ill-considered things in chat *once* when obviously being out of his mind.

    Consider this. That guy has
    1) worked deeply on a project for six years and has just made a decision to quit it,
    2) has just lost a coworker in a bit questionable series of events,
    3) is obviously depressed or burned out or both,
    4) is constantly under threat while serving in hostile country with no infrastructure of whatsoever and having to remain calm and peaceful while in desperate situation and underpowered,
    5) has had harder than normal time in service past six months and
    6) people are blaming you for not answering their *software project* emails fast enough, when you have been busy with things 4 and 5.

    If you can say you have experienced even *half* of these, let alone simultaneously and are willing to come up and admit it, *then* I can take you seriously when you come and say that you didn't say anything unprintable in that situation. Maybe.

    And also remember: english is not his native language. It's more than a bit hypocritical to judge someone you have not even met by his writing in *chat* in *foreign language*, especially when the chat log is spread without his consent by someone who is not willing to reveal his name, nor the context of the discussion.
  • by Qbertino (265505) on Friday July 28, 2006 @02:47PM (#15800917)
    Sad if it's about the current war in the ME. Nationalisim is basically nothing more than a mass-psychosis, with fanatisim and fundametalisim being the extremer variants. Conducted by a few who know each other well to have millions of people who don't know each other compete or fight.
    You'd expect a high profile OSS dev intelligent enough to shake it.

    The ones that deserve to be shot are Nasralla, some back-room Zionists and a few old-school fanatic muslims in Gaza and Syria. The rest would get along quite well actually. Just the other day I saw a newsfeed where an israeli arab (sitting in a cafe with his jewish friend) hit it on the spot (paraphrased): "It's allways gouverments and organisations fighting. The common people just what to live in peace, sip their cafe and play backgammon. Jews, Muslims and whomever else."
    True that is.
    Let's hope this crap is over soon and the maniacs fit's come to an end.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28, 2006 @03:03PM (#15801045)
    His outburst is both understandable and acceptable.

    I can't believe people are so biased there no one noticed he accused the israelis of behaving like nazis, not proposed to become a nazi itself of made apology of what the nazis did.

    (the civilian death toll is pretty clear on which side considers killing innocents is acceptable since they don't belong the the same "race")
  • Re:Come on guys.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Just Some Guy (3352) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Friday July 28, 2006 @03:14PM (#15801116) Homepage Journal
    If you can say you have experienced even *half* of these, let alone simultaneously and are willing to come up and admit it, *then* I can take you seriously when you come and say that you didn't say anything unprintable in that situation. Maybe.

    Been there, done that [slashdot.org] but I'm not on record as wanting to nuke various African countries.

    It's more than a bit hypocritical to judge someone you have not even met by his writing in *chat* in *foreign language*

    Bullshit. "Nazis" and "fuck you jews" comes across pretty damn clearly. I'm relatively certain he didn't mean to say "bad people" and "I don't like you" but accidentally got the words twisted around. He said what he said.

  • Re:Come on guys.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lorcha (464930) on Friday July 28, 2006 @04:36PM (#15801767)
    The guy has indicated that he:
    1. advocates the use of nuclear weapons against Israel
    2. wishes to join hezbolah in fighting Israel
    3. harbors hostility toward Jews in general, in addition to Israel
    Could you please tell me what of that got lost in translation? I mean, even when I tone down his rhetoric for him to make it sound more palatable, it still doesn't come across very well.

    Can you think of a possible translation or interpretation of his statements that does not indicate that he advocates genocide against both Israelis and Jews?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28, 2006 @04:48PM (#15801858)
    I think original post was bit unclear.

    For most Finns that fact that Israel is run by Jews is completely irrelevant. It could be run by baboons with friggin laser guns and people would still feel the same. Israel as state is just behaving badly, and many of us frown upon that. Anti-semitism has nothing to do with it eventhough Israelites in media would like people to think so.
  • by eighthave (319968) on Sunday July 30, 2006 @11:20AM (#15811230) Homepage
    Open dialogue is quite clearly the most fruitful approach. Obviously, an idea is not a solution if it doesn't work, and pragmatism must reign. I feel somewhat presumptuous offering solutions since I am not an expert on this topic, but rather a long time, devoted amateur. What I am proposing is that people reconsider the facts.

    Hezbollah is a frightening force, no rational person would argue that Israel should not have responded to Hezbollah's attacks. The question I propose is: what Israeli response would have most benefitted Israelis? Hezbollah attacked and kidnapped Israeli soldiers and launched and handful of rockets at Israel. Most of the world condemned this action, including Saudi Arabia. When Israel started attacking, most of the Arab world held back their usual criticism for a bit. Here was great opportunity to try something different.

    Since the beginnings of Israel's offensive, almost 2000 rockets have hit Israel, and 52 Israelis (33 soldiers and 19 civilians) have been killed. Does anyone actually think that there would have been more deaths and more rockets if Israel had not attacked? It looks quite clear that this attack against Lebanon has actually contributed towards increasing Israeli deaths and increasing the damage inflicted on Israel.

    "Forty-five Israelis were killed in Palestinian militant attacks in 2005, the Israeli internal security agency Shin Bet has reported..." "377 Qassam rockets" were launched towards Israel. "The main reason for the decline, Shin Bet said, was the informal truce observed by some Palestinian groups."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4574720.stm [bbc.co.uk]

    To put this into perspective, Israel as a nation without the occupied territories has a population of about 6.2 million. Just over 500 Israelis (civilians and soldiers) have died from the current intifada, 2000-2005, in Israel, so about 85 people per year. So that's a murder rate of about 1.4 per 100,000 residents for Israel. There are roughly 400,000 Israelis in the occupied territories, and if you add in the Israeli deaths from the occupied territories, you get 950, or 158 per year. That makes a rate of 2.4 per 100,000 residents.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3694350.stm [bbc.co.uk]

    Now let's look at U.S crime rates for 2000 (all in per 100,000 residents):

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm [disastercenter.com]

    California: 6.1
    New York: 5.0
    Georgia: 3.3
    Oregon: 2.0
    Connecticut: 2.9
    Vermont: 1.5

    So looking at murder rates, Israel is safer than Vermont. Including the occupied territories, Israel is still quite a bit safer than Connecticut or Georgia.

    So why do Israel's much lower murder rates justify such drastic action? Fear is a powerful motivator, and I do not doubt that the fear of suicide bombers and Hezbollah attacks that people feel is real. So the question really is, who actually benefits from Israeli military attacks? I think that most of the 90+ percent of Israelis who support this current action do not. Throughout the world, fear mongering has proven to be a very effective means for politicians to gain and keep power, I don't think this works differently in the Middle East.

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