India Cool to Microsoft Source Code Offer 146
indianseason writes "Economic Times, India reports on the failure of Microsoft to sign up the Indian government as part of the Government Security Program. The Print Edition carries a comment by an official: "... there was tremendous pressure on us to sign an MoU (memorandum of understanding) which would allow Microsoft access to all TDIL products (Technology Development for Indian Languages)." The government has gone ahead and put all the project initiatives in the public domain. TDIL recently released Indix : an engine for rendering Indian languages on linux."
So what's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
They can still access all the technology ...
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1, Troll)
I fail to see that as a problem. Microsoft, of course, might have a different view.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Free bugfixes, no IP, Still paying too much. That and the fact that there are no major Indian software houses that have engaged Microsoft in any previous trust-building exercises.
Bad deal all around.
-B
No problem... (Score:1)
What value is implicit in being able to read their source code?
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1, Flamebait)
That also doesn't mean that the MOU won't eventually be signed. Rather, it means that the Indian Government is very cool to the idea right now.
Not hard t
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1)
Actually, please mod down. (Score:2)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Actively obstruct the distribution of the original, e.g. by technical measures, or by starting a big suit about some licensing question, or by threatening the people.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1)
By hook or by crook, well, hey, we know what way M$ always got all their stuff... >:[=
-uso.
Hacking DOSPLUS 1.2-je4!
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
Uh, no, actually they can't. MS engineers are specifically prohibited from accessing much open-source software (in specific GPL'ed code), without first obtaining permission from the legal department. This is to avoid "contamination" of their source code base.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
No ! Public domain doesnt mean that anyone can do ANYTHING on it. Parks and roads are in pubic domain. Does it mean that you can occupy some space of it and start use it for your commercial purpose ? . Any public property has some restrictions attached to it. And these restrictions are necessary to KEEP it in the public domain. GPL is also also like that. It IS in the public domain and you can use it for anything except making it proprietory which is th
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends where you live. In the UK, for example, roads are most certainly not public property; the street is a public right of way, but you do not have the right to stand still in it; that's a criminal offence known as 'obstructing the Queen's highway'.
Public Domain, as a legal term applied to software, means "not copyrighted". GPLed software is copyrighted, and therefore is not in the public domain.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, I have trouble with the base story. We've had full support for all the Indic (Devanagari-based) languages since Windows 2000 and Office 2000 shipped. So I don't see why on Earth we'd need to license the Indian technology.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:5, Funny)
Shouldn't you be fixing some bugs and not browsing
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Microsoft needs to do this to be able to embrace-extend-extinguish it.
Don't read this post... (Score:5, Interesting)
/*
* Structure of a directory entry
*/
#define EXT2_NAME_LEN 255
Copright Remy Card, Linus Torvalds
Now that all the MS engineers are gone, I'll continue... :-)
Hmm...it would depend. We are forbidden to look at any GPL'ed code. BSD code is a grey area, and we need to consult with legal. If the indic language support is truly in the public domain, then we can certainly look at it.
Don't you feel that this is a ridiculous rule? Ok - if you read GPL'd code, you are now in the position that anything you write of similar functionality is "at risk" of being contaminated by this knowledge. I have to be careful not to view, say, any code in Postgresql as it might affect any coding decisions I might make in the future (I can feel someone about to post some Postgresql code in reply to this ...). That said, almost every piece of code contains the same ideas - maths, caching strategies, data transport. Coming from a scientific background, being able to build on the vast store of knowledge of those who have gone before me is a natural process. Having to walk the boundaries of copyright law, patents and other legal straight-jackets is a confining and ultimately unproductive method.
Just where would we be today if we could treat source code in the same way we treat mathematics?
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Don't read this post... (Score:1)
Shouldn't be a problem, as Postgresql is BSD licensed?
Re:Don't read this post... (Score:1)
I rather think the proprietary experiment has provided some valuable information. It has demonstrated that for information systems the best model of development is the peer reviewed open model used until recently in science. Of course now the trend is back to the guild mentality of the middle ages.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
I seem to recall that only a subset of Indic languages use the Devanagari script. I know Bengali doesn't and I don't believe any of the Dravidian languages do. My uninformed guess would be this knocks out half of India. So, I can see what MS may have to gain from this kind of deal.
Anyone have any information on this?
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
I speak and write Tamil. Characters are almost never merged in Tamil and at least to me, the script looks totally different from Devanagari scripts. This statement should hold for other South Indian languages such as Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam and a Pakistani Dravidian language Brahui (unless it uses a Devanagiri or other imported script).
Perhaps the parent poster meant something else by character-merger which I didn't understand. Obviously there could be similarities due to proximate evolution which could be leveraged.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Which, incidentally, is great news for developers, but end-users like you wouldn't be too bothered about it all (unless you want to transliterate between languages or learn a new one).
But he's wrong in saying there's support for Bengali on WinXP. As this press release [microsoft.com] states, MS sai
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Tamil does not have character merging that I know of, and even in the odd case that there is, there are work-arounds.
However, the poster could be talking about phonetic modifiers -- converting something like Th to something like Th-ee etc. In that case, you would not quite be merging the characters, but then for a novice that term would do just fine.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
'Devnagari-based' languages, then, is a misnomer; while, like I said, it's convinient to talk about Brahmi-derived languages
OT, cheap shot (Score:1)
(Ok, I've had too much root beer. I'll sit down and shut up.)
Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Win2k had support for exactly two Indic scripts, Devanagari and Tamil. WinXP has support for four more, Telugu, Kannada, Gujarati and Gurmukhi. Till date, MS does not have support for Malayalam, Oriya, Bengali, Sinhala, Burmese or other Indic (that's 'South Asian', not just 'Indian', or 'Devanagari-based') languages.
And even in that, it's pretty shoddy; as anyone who's typed in Telugu/Kannada in MS Office will tell you, there's a mysterious space that gets added after the end of each word. Telugu/Kannada characters mysteriously change into boxes every now and then. Again, mysteriously, {Telugu, Kannada} characters change into boxes when placed along with {Tamil, Devanagari} characters on MSN. That's only TWO of the bugs I've sighted so far; trust me, there are many more.
Your company knows about it and all others; I reported it by email to one of your personnel. Understandably, it's not one of your priorities; obviously, you have other, bigger markets to garner. Which, of course, is precisely the point here; if the source is open, concerned techie Indians can easily look into it and implement according to their needs and schedules, and would not be dependent on some faceless corporation's benevolence.
While I'm not sure it was Indix that I saw in action, but I'll say this:- I've seen Kannada and Devnagari in Emacs, and it's a much much MUCH better rendering than what WinXP offers.
And oh, before I end, you still use the Inscript keyboard layout and complex rendering algos in your Indic implementations, don't you? Guess who developed that, hmmm.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1)
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/scr
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Now, if that's the case, why in the hell was Bill Gates in India trying to get this? Something doesn't add up.
Consensus seems to be that Bill was trying to make sure no other OS would ever be allowed to have this support. This seems consistent with what has indeed happened.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine the BSA insisting all Windows users pay $399 to use it.
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
wait a second ...
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
I didn't know that Bill Gates was Mormon yet, but that's the only reason I can imagine about that...
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:1)
And how is GPL'd code Public Domain?
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
MS has used considerable amounts of BSD code in the past, and still does so, for a recent example(last week) see:
http://www.deadly.org/article.php3?sid=2003092709 0 008 [deadly.org]
You can also just do a strings of the ftp command on windows, for more details:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=BSD%20Cod e%20in%20Windows [everything2.com]
The original windows TCP/IP stack was lifted directly from BSD too... and I'm sure there are many other examples that we will never know
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Congradulations! You don't understand the differences between BSD and GPL.
With the BSD license, MS is allowed to take the code and put it into their proprietary products. They can, and do, because it's easy and cheap, and often has good results (for them).
GPL, on the other hand, would "infect" their source and require them to GPL whatever program they put GPL code into. The idea that MS might be forced into releasing the windows codebase as GPL sc
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Nice to see a government working as it should (Score:5, Insightful)
Nearly ten years have gone by with Security being a high priority at microsoft, look at the results.
Great insight. (Score:1)
Windows source code, huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
According to recent talk of Richard M. Stallman at CERN [www.cern.ch], governments do not get Windows source code as such, but rather a means to look at it on Microsoft site.
There is not way to determine whether what they are looking at is what really running on their computers, thus defeating the whole point of having that access anyway
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:3, Informative)
Whilst I guess a government could insist on this, reinstalling all machines after they'd be bought, presumably with Windows pre-installed, from the supplier, it would still be an undertaking.
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:2, Informative)
The undertaking is defining and maintaining the image. Re-imaging new PCs is trivial.
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:4, Informative)
Disclaimer: Although clever, the idea of using a compiler to insure security holes isn't my own...
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:1)
Besides, it's a lot easier to reverse-engineer the compiler to check for malicious code than the whole Windows.
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:2, Interesting)
In this case, you won't even have source for the compiler, which makes it trivial to trojan.
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:2)
But this is even worse, since the classic argument is that even with access to the source of the compiler, you can still be trojaned.
In this case, you won't even have source for the compiler, which makes it trivial to trojan.
Considering how large the compiler in question is, and the fact we are talking about Microsoft here, it is almost certainly trojaned in some way. :P
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:1)
Okay. So we develop, from scratch, a compiler capable of recompiling MS Visual Studio from source. For safety, we'd better write our compiler by hand in machine code, so we're not depending on _any_ "first compiler" which might be trojaned.
Now all we need is a secure hardware platform...
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:1)
Re:Windows source code, huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows source code (Score:1)
...
www.microsoft.com/sourcecode
...
<.<
>.>
^C
CONTROL-TAB
root@localhost# kwrite &
^V
file>save as>windows.cpp
file>exit
root@localhost# gcc -o
*phone ringing*
"Hunny, its fo you! Darl Mc...dyke?"
Re:Windows source code (Score:1)
I didn't realize that Windows was written in Brainfuck. Or is that PATH [sf.net]?
Third point's the kicker. (Score:4, Interesting)
Excellent point; and Microsoft should lose no time in calling up a well-trusted third-party security company to show that indeed Microsoft products are secure. Of course, it had better be a trusted company, because they don't want their source code getting out.
Hmm... I wonder if I should send my resume to an industry-leading security company, such as @stake, immediately. I'm into document preparation, not security, but I should be able to learn the language reasonably quickly. ;->
Trust is in a name... (Score:2)
And really, with a well-known security corp, trust should be semi-inherent to the name. no well-known company would want the bad reputation associated with illegally distribution MS's source code, and they definately wouldn't want the pounding-into-bankrupty that would follow being hammered into the ground by MS lawyers should the do such a thing.
You might worry about rogue employees, but I think a repu
Re:Third point's the kicker. (Score:1)
Hmm... I wonder if I should send my resume to an industry-leading security company, such as @stake, immediately.
Well @stake does have an opening [slashdot.org] now. However I pretty sure that when you did find security holes in Windows, pointing them out would be detremental to your job security.Which Way? (Score:5, Insightful)
It will be interesting to see how the Indian government goes on this one.
TDIL has value in making computers more accessible to much of their population. For some, this is a money-making opportunity to charge for access to the technology that will be deployed to a billion potential customers. For others, this is an opportunity to speed up introduction of technology to the country. It could be both.
They could go with something like a GPL on TDIL that MS would detest, but would enable free software development in India, which later could be used as a platform by commercial firms in India for specific applications. But the government would not reap any immediate financial gain from this; only the long term gains from an increased tax base of a larger, faster growing economy in general.
They could go with selling out to MS entirely, which would give the government more money in the short term, but would impede internal software development because it would necessitate all the Indian software developers acquiring MS specific tools to do their jobs and to compete with MS. Deployment of IT in the country would be less because it would be limited to those who could afford it.
Possibly going with a BSD license would provide the biggest initial boost in software development in India, but the long term benefits are less clear.
Personally, I'd welcome the many intelligent Indian programmers to the world of FOSS. Their contributions would help to make for improved quality and continued low cost for free software. Indigenous businesses in India would be in a better position to take more advantage of information technology and its productivity gains if there was both free software and many local programmers available for customizing it for business needs.
Re:Which Way? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Which Way? (Score:3)
It will be interesting to see how the Indian government goes on this one.
TDIL has value in making computers more accessible to much of their population. For some, this is a money-making opportunity to charge for access to the technology that will be deployed to a billion potential customers. For others, this is an opportunity to speed up introduction of technology to the country. It could be both.
They could go with something like a GPL on TDIL that MS would detest, but would enable free software developm
Now's a good time... (Score:4, Insightful)
"I am sure this is a first. The President of India has urged Indian IT Professionals to develop and specialise in OSS rather than Windows. To be noted is that he made the speech (look for the "Think Different" section) at the famous Indian Institute of Information Technology (India's foremost academic institution equivalent to MIT). Also he reminisces that his meeting with Mr.Gates were difficult due to differing views concerning OSS and Security. What should be noted about him is that he is not a politician, but a scientist and an independent thinker foremost."
In the public domain? not! (Score:5, Insightful)
This software is copyright (C) 2000-2001, NCST
That ain't public domain. There's more, of course:
All Rights Reserved except as specified below. Permission is hereby granted to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software (or portions thereof) for any purpose, without fee, subject to these conditions:
(1) If any part of the source code for this software is distributed, then this README file must be included, with this copyright and no-warranty notice unaltered; and any additions, deletions, or changes to the original files must be clearly indicated in accompanying documentation.
(2) If only executable code is distributed, then the accompanying documentation must state that "this software is based in part on the work of the IndiX system".
(3) Permission for use of this software is granted only if the user accepts full responsibility for any undesirable consequences; the authors accept NO LIABILITY for damages of any kind.
These conditions apply to any software derived from or based on the IndiX code, not just to the unmodified library. If you use our work, you ought to acknowledge us.
That looks an awful lot like a BSD license...and is obviously not GPL!
Re:In the public domain? not! (Score:1)
Re:In the public domain? not! (Score:1)
Indix? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Indix? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Indix? (Score:2)
Probably for the same reason that the Gnome programmers haven't migrated to KDE now that Qt is available under the GPL. Diversity never hurt anyone.
Or it might be because Pango is LGPL'd, which means there are still restrictions to its use in proprietary software. IndiX is BSD-licensed (?).
Besides, since IndiX is Free, the Pango developers will be able to draw on
"Cool" in what sense? (Score:3, Informative)
Or "cool" as in "less interested?"
Yeah, RTFA. But what a lousy headline.
Re:"Cool" in what sense? (Score:2)
I agree, it's a poor title.
Re:"Cool" in what sense? (Score:1)
If MS Source code offer had been anthropomorphic, of course the headline might mean that the offer thought India was cool...
Re:"Cool" in what sense? (Score:1)
Re:"Cool" in what sense? (Score:1)
MS - BAD
LINUX - GOOD
get the picture?
Re:"Cool" in what sense? (Score:1)
LINUX - GOOD
I agree with you. Far too many suffer from Multiple Sclerosis. Not sure what this linux thing is though.
Re:"Cool" in what sense? (Score:1)
MOO!
Acess to ALL products? (Score:3, Interesting)
"here i sell you a tool, but i get to look at EVERYTHING you do, and profit from it, regardless of its relation to the orginal tool.."
Only a monopoly would even have the balls to demand such a concept.
They need to be closed. Im not for governmental influence, but they have gotten out of hand and need to be terminated as a company.
MS is hot on OSS (Score:5, Interesting)
Project mercury was brought under
I wonder what China promised them?
What third-party certifier would they trust? (Score:5, Interesting)
What organization is:
a) smart enough to properly assess the security of the Microsoft code and
b) independent enough to publicly fail them if their code wasn't up to snuff and
c) acceptable to Microsoft?
Without all three, you got nothing.
Re:What third-party certifier would they trust? (Score:2)
The Real Story (Score:1, Insightful)
The real story is that the Indian gov't wants their software development industry to be included in the deals that Microsoft makes with "the big boys." I suspect we'll see a flurry of activity with Indian sofware companies
I wouldn't want to look at the source (Score:2)
Well, think about it: if YOU were India... (Score:5, Interesting)
Consider this from the point of view of the Indian government. They can:
A) Let Microsoft come in with low initial prices, taking over the Indian software market and then exerting absolute control later on, or
B) Assign teams at whichever Indian college has the best research facilities, provide them copies of Linux and the BSDs, and have them roll out a purely Indian Linux and/or BSD that can be used across the board as an Indian National O/S. It could be completely pre-vetted for security holes, OpenBSD style, and it could be engineered to support all Indian languages natively alongside English, instead of having them as add-ons. Also it could be used throughout the entire Indian infrastructure, freeing them from any reliance on foreign concerns. Updates could come from the team that rolled it out in the first place. Couple this with a cheap homegrown computer, of course...
Seriously. If you were in the Indian government, what would YOU do?
Re:Well, think about it: if YOU were India... (Score:2)
Just a thought.
Re:Well, think about it: if YOU were India... (Score:2)
"Seriously. If you were in the Indian government, what would YOU do?"
I'd place Indian professors into various universities that have MS source licenses.
I'd make it blatantly clear to them that they are spies, and that they will be executed for treason if the nature of their mission is leaked. I would use them as tools of espionage.
At the same time, I would use my existing spies who already have infiltrated MS and every other software company, to the same purposes that they are being used currently.
And
Gnome2 (Score:2)
I thought the Pango project [pango.org], and therefore Gnome 2.x, already supported Devanagari [pango.org]. If that is true, why is this legacy Gnome 1.x project being announced now?
I think this webpage is quite old. The IndiX screenshots are from XFree86 4.0.3. The Netscape screenshots are definitely old, too. How could TDIL have "recently released" this?
Hight of paranoia... (Score:1)
Ok they show you some code. Do they actually provide it in a form that can be built so you can be sure it isn't some kind of almost the same but we've removed some essential sneaky bits?
With GPL (and other licensed stuff) you can definitely build it and use only your own build of it.
ah ... (Score:1)
Is IndiX being maintained at all? (Score:1)
There has been no new version of IndiX for quite some time. They had not tried to merge it with latest X sources. It is more like a technology demonstrator than a finished product maintained by an active community.
I find pango to be more suitable for the needs of I
Re:That's funny (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:That's funny (Score:2)
Re: Quidquid id est timeo danaos et DONA ferentes (Score:2, Interesting)
For those of us whose latin is a bit rusty ;-): "Whatever it is, I fear the Greeks, even when they bring gifts."
Words of warning uttered (in ancient Greek) by Laokoon as a warning to the Trojans when they found the wooden horse. The horse was, of course, the infamous Trojan horse, presented by the Greeks as a gift to the Trojans. The horse was full of Greek soldiers, who crept out of the horse in the night and conquered Troy from within.
Re: Quidquid id est timeo danaos et DONA ferentes (Score:1)
"Quidquid id est timeo danaos et DONA ferentes"
and you wrote:
'For those of us whose latin is a bit rusty
Actually, it's not the Greek but the Danaer, an italic tribe neighboring ancient Rome (~600BC).
Re: Quidquid id est timeo danaos et DONA ferentes (Score:1)
Re: Quidquid id est timeo danaos et DONA ferentes (Score:1)