Should Hackers Get Their Own Logo?

Ridgelift writes "Eric S. Raymond is proposing a new logo for Hackerdom. 'The Linux folks have their penguin and the BSDers their demon. Perl's got a camel, FSF fans have their gnu and OSI's got an open-source logo. What we haven't had, historically, is an emblem that represents the entire hacker community of which all these groups are parts. This is a proposal that we adopt one - the glider pattern from the Game of Life.'"

I thought they already had one....

H4x0r3z

Re:I thought they already had one....

Interestingly he's not referring to Hackers as the term is commonly applied.

He is referring to the original sense of Hacker.

Read his articles:
How to be a Hacker
A brief history of hackerdom.

I think the logo is a great idea. Yes a lot of people who don't deserve to have the logo will display it, but then that won't change anything from how it is today.

You know what's sad?

Think of how the term "hacker" was corrupted in the first place.

What makes you think the same won't happen with the logo. I can just see the same steps happening:

1. A couple of script kiddies, who don't even understand what those downloaded rootkits do, start placing the logo on defaced websites and such. Or placing it all over some warez sites, in between porn popups and l33t text.

2. A few retarded and clueless journalists clamp on the "hacking is evil, and this is the logo of these evil people" idea. You know, writing an article about a _real_ hacker won't rake in the readers. It's just a guy working long shifts to make some complicated program. Not many people want to read about that. Whereas doom and gloom journalism about these evil 'hackers', who'll bring our cyber-civilization to its knees, those sell.

3. Your average PHB clamps onto the journalists' definition. It's easier him to understand stuff like "wow, these guys are motivated by evil goals" than "whoa, someone actually likes computers and spends his/her free time learning and experimenting".

So anyway, think about it this way. Would you tell a random client nowadays that you're a hacker, or that you sympathize with hackers? Want to be that they'll instantly understand "cyber-terrorist" by that? You can try to educate them all you want, they'll just fall back to the definition that the media feeds them.

Now take the logo. Do you have any doubt that in a couple of years wearing that logo on a t-shirt will have the same effect? And what do you think will happen after the company loses a few contracts because the client saw you wearing that evil symbol? I can just see it banned at work.

Re:I thought they already had one....

No logo will be more recognizable than the existing pocket protector and high-water pants.

Interesting

I like it.

I figure a lot of people are going to say something along the lines of "to hell with this, we don't ALL need a logo", but IMHO it's just a cool little thing that could easily be embedded (or hidden) in things like logos or programs (being just a 9x9 matrix).

Though I think it would probably be best and easiest represented as pixels rather than circles on a grid.

Re:Interesting

Perhaps you mean this :^)

.*.
..*
***

(select Code as the post type)

Re:Interesting

010 001 111

How about 217 then? Nice and easy to remember - like when I chmod something...

Re:Interesting

How about 217 then? Nice and easy to remember - like when I chmod something...

Exactly WHAT are you chmoding 217???

Re:Interesting

Wait, isn't the game of life all about reproduction? What the hell does that have to do with hackers? Is this suppose to be ironic?

Re:Interesting

Yes it is a game of reproduction .... in which gliders do not reproduce. Think about it.

dyslexic hackers UNTIE!

#|O|#
-+-+-
O|#|#
-+-+-
O|O|O

Re:dyslexic hackers UNTIE!

I love the "dyslexics of the world: untie!" joke, but I must ruin your variation by pointing out that the flyer object represented in the proposed hacker logo has the same "flying" (moving) qualities regardless of symmetry (vertical and horizontal flips, and/or rotations in any direction by 90 degree increments yields a virtual object with the same behaviour). So it wouldn't really be dyslexic at all to have the little arrow formed by your flyer point to the lower-left, as opposed to the arbitrary orientation in the proposed logo.

Which makes me wonder why ESS picked that particular direction/orientation. Surely the choice was not politically motivated, since the arrow points to the right (lower-right, yes, but definitely not left as one might expect). Then again, you might say the vertical element sort of leans left, so that would be appropriate. :)

Seriously, I'm still not sure about the whole logo idea. On one hand, I really don't care -- those that like it should feel free to use it and, in time, it may garner some respect. If not, those who embraced it will be ridiculed for an appropriate length of time and intensity. On the other hand, it sucks because, well, because it's a logo. And a contrived one, specifically chosen to try to be cool, which is, of course, as un-cool as you can get. If a logo for the hacker community just sort of happened accidentally, as the result of some odd, unexpected, unifying event or meme, it might stick. But I think a contrived logo, even with a reference as cool as John Conway built in, is unlikely to catch on.

But, on the bright side, R'ing TFA led me to this funny hacker FAQ [plethora.net] that I hadn't seen before. Very accurate, if a bit too condescending. Regardless, my boss is getting a copy of this right now -- not that he really needs is, but he'll laugh for sure and maybe learn a little.

Re:Pixels you said?

Actually, to be a true hacker, one would make it as efficient as possible. In this case, you'd make it a 3x3 image and enlarge it with the image tag in the web page. For example this page [norwesters.com]

Non-conformists

You want a group that has been, historically, non-conformists to agree on something so singular as a logo?

Here's a cup, there's the hoover dam. You'll have better luck.

btw, I think it's more fitting that hackers do not have a logo, personally.

Re:Non-conformists

Remember that you're unique, just like everybody else.

Even anarchists have a logo

You want a group that has been, historically, non-conformists to agree on something so singular as a logo?

Sure. Even anarchists have a logo, for god's sake!

Hackers are a rich subculture, and it's been that way for decades. Hackers share common life views, activities, and experiences that are different than the mainstream. So they're distinctive and weird, not unlike peace-activists, republicans, christians, motorcyclists, masons, homosexuals, etc. They've all got their logos that some wear with pride and others choose not to. But if you do choose to fly the flag, at least there's a community understanding of what it means.

One problem I see with a logo though, is that hackers tend to hate posers (since hacking is more about competence than simply attitude). And it's easier to pose with a logo.

Re:Even anarchists have a logo

"(since hacking is more about competence than simply attitude)"

Oh. Then I propose a new logo for us incompetent hackers. It's a much more meaningful symbol...

* *
***
* *

The leter H which in the game of life disolves into nothingness after 6 generations. Just like most of my programs.

Re:Even anarchists have a logo

The leter H which in the game of life disolves into nothingness after 6 generations.

Not quite appropriate ... most hackers will dissolve into nothingness at the end of the first generation.

Re:Incompetent hackers

Yes, that form of the letter "H", crapily formatted to not look like one, due to the assumption that HTML "knows what you mean", is the perfect logo for incompetent and ignorant hacker wannabes!

I'm putting it im my sig lines and sig files right now, since, well, I'm not just the incompetent hacker club president, I'm also a client.

Re:Like the totally 1337 peace sign? All your base

Are we talking about the "peace sign"?

No, this [google.com]. [image search]

Re:how about a secret handshake instead?

1) it needs color

if a logo "needs colour" it wasn't designed well. If you're making a logo for something, first design it in b&w, make sure it look good, then add your colour. That way, the logo will still be effective when photocopied, faxed, or viewed by those with less than perfect colour perception.

Re:how about a secret handshake instead?

first design it in b&w, make sure it look good, then add your colour

This rule can be broken and has in fact been broken many times in the past. Before you brake it, you need to know your audience and the channels that you reach them.

Example: Google [google.com]. When you photocopy it, what you get is just the word in a not-very-exciting font (besides colors, the 3D effect and the shadows can vanish too). But since the Google logo will be seen almost exclusively through color monitors, that's no problem.

Bascially, that's the old way of designing logos, like Paul Rand [dlsdesign.com] did it. This school of logo creation also means that a logo can have no direction (think arrows), because it would look strange when you print it on both sides of a truck and it inevitably points backwards on one side.

Anyway, to close my post: There might be rules for logos, but these rules are moving. And Logos that work only in color might be ok today.

Re:how about a secret handshake instead?

it would look strange when you print it on both sides of a truck

Aah yes, that well known hacker-fleet that drives around :o) Could cover war-drivers I suppose.

Um...

In the chance that ten years from now hackers everywhere will refer to this slashdot article as the origin of their symbol, I just wanted to post in it.

...but I kinda doubt it.

I'd prefer

...a snatch shot with a bottle of beer embedded inside.

Woops, wrong group, sorry.

Pointing down?

That glider is pointing downward and will eventually crawl off the bottom right corner of the screen.

The glider should be going up, to symbolize progress.

Depends how you look at it; also, tiling?

In many computer graphics systems, the X/Y coordinate system starts in the the upper left and goes up in the right and down directions. So, in a way, the glider would be going "up" both ways. ("Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we hold dear are only true from a certain point of view.")

Also:

It could be varied, combined with other emblems, or modified and infinitely repeated for use as a background.

If you tiled them (with no extra space, or even with a one-cell margin between, probably), they'd cease to glide. Which brings up a great, though CPU-draining, and possibly annoying, possibility: a huge life-game running as your wallpaper.

Re:Dumb idea..

You've never heard of the Game of Life? You're right then, a Hacker Emblem doesn't apply to you.

hackers, indeed

From the page: "Here is a snippet of XHTML you can paste into a page.

<a href='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/'>
<img src='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/glider.png' ></a>"

Note that this isn't valid XHTML.

-1, Troll;

This seems kind of ridiculous and pointless. Sure, it's an interesting idea, but it seems like a kind of needless branding of an identity/concept. Plus, you'll see all the least qualified latching onto it first, to prove that they're so plugged in to the culture.

And then in three months, it'll show up on peoples' resumes. And business cards. And we'll all die a little bit.

Speaking of which, time to update my resume, this may be the key to getting my hyper-1337 job.

Re:-1, Troll;

Ah, but that's precisely the beauty of the concept. We'll be able to identify ourselves by seeing who doesn't use the logo!

Kind of like being able to tell if someone is pretending to have been a Navy SEAL [navyfrogmen.com] because they're talking about/displaying their medals.

Why this one?

Look, there are 8 gliders like this - 4 directions, and 2 states, if I remember right.

Why on earth did he pick one that goes DOWN?

Why not pick one that goes up and right?

Crackers should have one that goes DOWN.

Re:Why this one?

Why on earth did he pick one that goes DOWN? Why not pick one that goes up and right?

I think it might symbolize a flaccid penis since according to his FAQ, you aren't to think about sex if you are a hacker.

Think about the audience

Can't open source hackers have ONE THING that goes down on them???
Geez, it's not like they're getting girls to do it.

Re:Why this one?

Because the enemy's gate is DOWN.

Spelling 101

and the BSDers their demon.

That's a daemon for them.

The BSD Daemon [freebsd.org]
Daemon not demon [erenkrantz.com]

Rule 30

I personally think rule 30 [wolfram.com] would be a better logo, but may we should pick something from the Game of Real Life [gameofreallife.com].

Why don't we carve

A giant statue of Mr. Eric Raymond out of Mt. Hood or something. It seems like this man has an insatiable ego that cannot be fulfilled.

No logo

Call me old school, (okay, a lot of you will call much nastier things than that) but I just don't like the idea of another logo. Notice that on Raymond's little proposal page there almost as much space devoted to who should *not* use that logo than to what the logo is actually supposed to represent. This starts to make me feel that the purpose is to draw lines on the ground and say "you can come in but you "others" have to stay out".

Cheers, Dcobbler.

Just for that comment...

... you can't use the icon.

MS Hacker logo

Those of us that work on MS Windows would like something depicting lemmings going off a cliff or maybe lemmings landing head first on the rocks below.

I'm not sure this really works.

Admittedly, the "glider" was cool. Everybody played life, everyone knew that crosses were stable and gliders would fly till they impacted - it's a universal identifier for a lot of people.

But the BSD logo and the Linux logo are brands, they're symbols for a codebase, not a loosely and contentiously organized group which most people off the street would mistakenly identify as a word for computer criminals. This really doesn't make any sense- what are you branding yourself as? Are you an ESR/hacker? What if by some fluke you just never played life?

Anyway if we are going to give someone the responsiblity of branding an entire MOVEMENT, I'm not sure it should be some gun crazed wack job [lwn.net] that would scare most moms out of the day care center.

Re:I'm not sure this really works.

On the contrary, I think a gun crazed wack job that would scare most moms out of the day care center is an ideal candidate.

However, this argument neatly sums up why you can't apply a logo to all of hackerdom, I think.

The ultimate argument against the usefulness of such a logo is that you aren't a hacker because you get recognition, you're a hacker because you enjoy hacking. If you're doing it for some other goal, you are a hacker in the sense of one who hacks, but not a hacker in the sense of one who would be most aptly described by 'hacker'.

obvious

the need for a logo is obvious. After all, /. was forced to use the linux logo for this.

a logo for you.

Hrm.......

I would sugest a cluttery desk with dirty ash trays, lots of empty half crushed soda-pop cans, O'reilly books of various pedigry and colors spewn around the room and book shelves. Pillow hair, coffee cups, the abient glow of a monitor, and half eaten pizza. Combine these things into one logo and it would rule all other logos.

Here's my candidate

Take a look [keysan.com]

Functional, yet stylish. It gives us a connection to those hackers who have gone before us.

(Note to the humor impaired: This is supposed to be funny. Laugh, or at least try to.)

"Hacker" is now a shibboleth

If you don't know what a glider is, or why it would make a good emblem, or if you're dubious about having an emblem at all, read the FAQs page

The word "hacker" has become a shibboleth. It's a word that seperates people in-the-know from people who are not. Back in biblical times, a town was named "Shibboleth" which non-native people would mispronounce. If a guard or other authority wanted to know if someone was native to the town or a possible outside threat, he would have them pronounce the name of the city. If they could pronounce "Shibboleth" properly, they were in. If they couldn't, they were sent on their way.

Why the history lesson? Because the word "hacker" has gained a lot of baggage and is now a shibboleth. Once used to describe people who were true geeks who wanted to understand how things worked, it now carries the negative connotation of someone who breaks into computers.

I like the word "hacker" because true hackers understand what it means. I also think in that same vein the logo Eric's chosen is a good one, because people "in-the-know" will understand what it means. The fact that I thought the "Game of Life" referred to the Milton-Bradley game shows I still have more to learn. So now I'm reading up on the history of the actual game, which shows my desire to really learn and understand.

Which is what a "hacker" wants to do anyway...

Re:"Hacker" is now a shibboleth

If they could pronounce "Shibboleth" properly, they were in. If they couldn't, they were sent on their way.

Um... actually they were dragged away and killed, as usually happens in Bible stories: Judges 12:4-6 [virginia.edu]

Re:"Hacker" is now a shibboleth

If they could pronounce "Shibboleth" properly, they were in. If they couldn't, they were sent on their way.

Um... actually they were dragged away and killed, as usually happens in Bible stories: Judges 12:4-6

Right. That's what I said. I just happened to say it in Microsoft-eze.

In a word, no

Hackers don't need nor want a logo. Does ESR really think that most hackers are just dying to put logos on their coffee cups, hats, shirts, etc? If a hacker wants to express himself, he'll do it through hacking.

If we do have a logo, I think it should be a vector rendered shilouete of a fat, unwashed, unshaven hacker sitting in front of a PC.

Raise your Hand if This Fulfills an Inner Need....

"...that is a title of honor that generally has to be conferred by others rather than self-assumed."

Like that's gonna happen. If this does catch on, it will be plastered on every wannabe's website. It will be abused and misapplied, just as the name hacker is treated.

Perhaps hackers are unique, even among themselves? Perhaps a logo does not represent all (or most) hackers? Perhaps claiming to have a logo that represents all hackers (or hackers in general) is presumptuous?

"It's my job to think of these things."

Again, perhaps this is presumptuous? Historians (like say, of American history or what have you) don't tell us what our symbols should be. (Well, if they do no one is listening).

More importantly, hackers do not necessarily need a symbol. Hackers aren't all in the same group and they certainly are not out to advertise themselves and get people to associate an image or idea with them. I would say they probably don't care what the general populous thinks, let alone if they know what a hacker is.

Now how to vote on this?

I For one suggest that we take a vote on this preferably with Diebold Touchscreen machines. Thas way the truly determined hackers will win.

How about...

The caffeine molecule [thinkgeek.com], a substance that permeates hacker culture.
It even symbolises some of the humour that hackers are known for.

Worthy of a tattoo?

The big question is, would you tattoo it on your arm like Charles Petzold [charlespetzold.com] and his Windows logo?

Chip H.

This is me being a douche

Where is the station wagon full of pink and blue round-tipped sticks? Oh...not talking about that that Game of Life [hasbro.com]. I've never played Conway's Game of Life, but I think if it had a snappy commercial gingle it might go a little something like this:

You can't be a winner if you've ever played Conway's Game of Life

Yea...I'm pretty much a jerk.

Bah!!!

First thing I thought is, "who the FUCK would come up with such a lame, pathetic, anti-hacker mentality idea as this?" I missed the ESR reference.

Can't say it surprises me though.

A logo? A LOGO? Hey Eric, how about everyone who meets qualifications (do you need to qualify to be an official hacker? ) get team jackets? Oh, oh yeah, and we could all listen to the same hacker music, and play the same hacker games, and and...

Last I remember, any non-derogatory definition of hacker included (or at least implied) a strong sense of independence. Let's all show our independence by wearing a logo!!!

Bah.

Hmmm.

I can't really dispute the validity of the glider logo since, even if I never really got into the whole Game Of Life thing (my personal early-hacker obsession was fractals) but I don't really like the logo itself.

I'd go with a design that replaces the circles-in-squares with rectangles, about twice as wide as high and with the "dead" sectors completely empty. Something like this [www.blit.ca].

For black-and-white media, the red squares become whatever the foreground colour is supposed to be and if there are lots of colours available, the brightness of each rectangle could be adjusted to indicate the "aliveness" of that rectangle during some stage of the glider's life cycle.

Not a good emblem

What is the emblem? A glider. Duh.

Why have an emblem at all? What Eric says about community is true, but hackers recogize each other by their hacks (and posers, by the lack of). Not as easy as a logo, but authenticity is guaranteed.

Why this emblem? A glider isn't appropriate. A glider is "startling and unexpected" for about ten seconds. But nothing new spontaneously emerges from a glider. It just monotonously churns along - no change in speed or direction - until it vanishes over the edge of the screen. Hell, why not use lemmings!? At least *sometimes* they don't jump.

"Social engineering?" "mugs or t-shirts?" 3.Profit! anyone? I don't need a logo - I'm not being marketing. I don't need a "resident historian" - I don't care who used to live here.

Lickable OS X version

Pixel art + hand-smoothing + OS X = glider.icns [menloschool.org] (screenshot [menloschool.org] for the OS X-impaired).

I put this icon together in some 20 minutes or so. How's it look to you?

Identity

Of course hackers are in need of a logo. We are a disparate group of loosely knit geeks who all have a common passion.
I believe also that any true hacker will readily admit ESR's contributions to our community, and possession of the title of "hacker" himself, perhaps I'd even go so far as to call him an "Alpha-hacker".

What's to prevent us from clinging to some logo that we can use to at least superficially identify other people as like-minded. If I'm sitting at a cyber-cafe and see a glider taped to some guy's laptop as he surfs some C, I'm going to recognize that I'm looking at someone who just might be a hacker. This is not a "status symbol" in the real world, in fact most people in the real world will never acknowledge ESR's hacker logo unless someone does something Really Big And Stupid while publically displaying it.

And why not the glider? We're hackers, we all know who JohnConway is, and what fun his Game of Life is. I'm willing to bet half of us have had an infatuation with it at some point or another, and half of that has even written their own little implementation of the thing.

If you don't like the logo, go for the spirit and choose a Up-Left glider, or a Cross (although that might be taken religiously), or you could be really cryptic and slap a 3rd-generation glider on the back of your T-Shirt (a 6th-generation "pump" looks pretty good too).

Sure there will be posers, but as they say, "You will know them by their works". If the code doesn't back up the glider, then just laugh and show them what real "elite" hacking looks like.

Just my 2 cents worth, I like ESR's logo, and will probably be putting a glider of some form on my website in the near future. Just to set myself apart that little bit more.

Here's a stab at it in SVG

<?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>
<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd" >
<svg width="64.0" height="64.0">
<g fill="none" stroke="#808080" stroke-width="1">
<rect x="0.5" y="0.5" width="63" height="63" />
<rect x="0.5" y="21.5" width="63" height="21" />
<rect x="21.5" y="0.5" width="21" height="63" />
</g>
<g fill="#000000">
<circle cx="11" cy="53" r="9" />
<circle cx="32" cy="11" r="9" />
<circle cx="32" cy="53" r="9" />
<circle cx="53" cy="32" r="9" />
<circle cx="53" cy="53" r="9" />
</g>
</svg>

ESR's jab at free software

Anyone else notice this oh-so-subtle jab at free software in the "How to be a Hacker" FAQ?
(We used to call these works ``free software'', but this confused too many people who weren't sure exactly what ``free'' was supposed to mean. Most of us, by at least a 2:1 ratio according to web content analysis, now prefer the term ``open-source'' software).

(*eye's roll*)

Not just NO but "Hell NO!"

It's bad enough that the word "hacker" has come to be used to refer to "crackers" and malicious coders, now we want the press to use a logo? Every unethical "hacker" out there will start using it to try to give themselve some legitimacy, then the next huge MS exploit that is created by these guys will be seen as coming from a "community" that is represented by logo X. How many times to we have to watch a company RUN from a brand and logo gone bad due to some glitch in marketing or implementation?

This is a BAD idea. I have a hard enough time trying to get people to make a mental distinction between "good hackers" and "bad hackers". Cracker doesn't really make it easier and now ESR wants to use what I assume will be a brand-recognizable like logo?

Count me out, brother!

my initial thoughts

tic tac toe.

and it looks like circle's winning... ;)

It's Perfect

There's more than one way to do it (4 orientations, each with two states)

If mine is still a glider, I can say "that's just my style", the way that different programmers can code the same thing and have the source come out completely differently.

Impressive as it is, it requires a whole foundation (a simulator for Conway's Life), just like Linux needs the GNU tools to compile and to be useful. And, just like GNU/Linux, everyone will ignore or disregard ESR's contribution once it becomes popular.

If you put more than one glider, of different orientations, on the same Life domain, they will either interact to do amazing things, ignore each other, or anihilate each other - just like different hacker's code!

And, of course, different hackers will say "the default sucks", and change the orientation, make fancier gliders, etc., which will work for them but not for anyone else, bringing shouts of "diversity if good!" and "why can't everyone just work on the same logo!"

I think ESR might be on to something.