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Angry Spirited Away Fans Strike Back
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Fri Dec 06, 2002 05:54 AM
from the colorized-classics dept.
from the colorized-classics dept.
peter_gzowski writes "Anime News Network is reporting that, 'The Japanese consumers in the Kyoto and Hyogo prefectures of Japan have filed a lawsuit against Walt Disney Japan over the red tint on the Japanese DVD release of Spirited Away.' Japanese consumers who purchased the Spirited Away DVD were very disappointed when they discovered a red tint to the film. A hundred thousand consumers complained, but Buena Vista Home Entertainment Japan (a subsidiary of Walt Disney) pretended nothing was wrong with the disc. The original source of news of the suit can be found (in Japanese) at Mainichi. No response from Disney yet."
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Angry Spirited Away Fans Strike Back
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Red faced? (Score:4, Funny)
Could it be (Score:3, Funny)
(really dating myself here)
100,000 (Score:5, Interesting)
Does this say something about Buena Vista, Disney, the Japanese, or what?
Re:100,000 (Score:5, Informative)
- Disney red-faced over 'faulty' DVD
Ironic that this happened in a country with a reputation for a highly developed sense of artistry and aesthetics. What were they thinking?KYOTO -- Buyers of a DVD version of the popular animated film "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" have launched a lawsuit against its retailer, Walt Disney Japan, claiming the color is "completely different" from movie theater showings.
The Kyoto District Court suit, launched by three buyers from Kyoto and Hyogo prefectures, claims that a heavy red tone persists throughout the DVD version, ruining the film.
They have demanded that the company replace the copies they bought with a better version, and pay them 10,000 yen each in compensation.
A total of 3 million copies of the DVD have already been produced, and Walt Disney Japan and consumer centers have reportedly fielded numerous complaints from other buyers.
Walt Disney Japan began selling DVD copies of the film through Buena Vista Home Entertainment in July. However, a red tone that buyers claim persists through the film makes the movie dark, and consumers say it is completely different from the movie version.
Buyers of the DVD reportedly analyzed the colors by computer and found that of the three primary colors, the red tone was extremely strong.
Buena Vista Home entertainment reportedly posted a home page message saying that the tone of the colors could vary depending on the playing environment, but the firm is reportedly refusing to exchange copies, saying the DVD is not a defective product.
Buena Vista officials said they would consider a response together with Studio Ghibli, the makers of the "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" film, but added that the DVD was an original product whose tones were produced while respecting the intentions of the producers. (Mainichi Shimbun, Dec. 3, 2002)
seeing red (Score:1)
I guess realtime digital enhancing DVD video demands lotsa processing
Dang, just when you think it all equal! (Score:1)
Didn't "see" the problem? (Score:5, Funny)
screen shots (Score:1, Troll)
Re:screen shots (Score:5, Informative)
Any indication of how this happened? (Score:5, Informative)
The article states: They claim that, after analyzing the DVD, they found that its color balance was biased towards red.
Anyone have any ideas how this happened? It doesn't seem like it's one of those things that "just happens". It sounds to me like someone in the DVD production group seriously goofed and it was missed by the QA team. If that's the case, it's a pretty amazing oversight... I'd love to hear the opinions of those who know more about video production than I.
Re:Any indication of how this happened? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Any indication of how this happened? (Score:5, Insightful)
If your CRT/LCD/etc. isn't calibrated to the same white point as the rest of the world, then everything but this DVD would look bad.
Disney just doesn't want to admit they fucked up. Again.
Not the first time they've run into "red tint" (Score:5, Funny)
These complaints stopped, however, when Disney admitted they were trying to portray "Native Americans". Consumers were simply mistaken -- the rest of the movie suggested they were Americans of European descent.
Japanese eyes (Score:5, Interesting)
The point is: Are Disney's people in Japan mostly beefy white Americans? Is it possible that they literaly can't see the red tint in the DVD?
I've had a similar experience once when designing a website, and a guy from marketing kept wanting fucking wierd oranges and other strange hues until we discovered that he was colourblind.
The colour counts (Score:5, Interesting)
The internet's a bit lacking on information, so here's some info on colour sensitivity...
Sensitivity to Color:
Different areas of human eyes have different sensitivity to color. For example, the eye is not sensitive to color at the periphery. It is only possible to discriminate between colors only +_60 of the straight head position. The color awareness range is about 90 to the straight head position. The eye is least sensitive to red, green, and yellow at the periphery. Thus when designing interface for large screen, blue would make a good background color.
The front of the eyes is more sensitive to red, green, and yellow. If we put small blue objects on the screen, which will usually be in the front of the eye, these objects will tend to disappear form the screen.
Discernment of color differences:
Eye is also least sensitive to changes in the shades of blue. It is very sensitive to changes in the shades of red. Eye is sensitive to the differences between colors in various degrees and the discernment of color differences is not uniform across the spectrum.
The eyes need to refocus for the colors, which are not near on the spectrum. Thus it would be difficult (tiring) for human eye to focus if red and blue are placed together.
Re:Japanese eyes (Score:5, Informative)
Google reckons that "Congenital color vision deficiency overwhelmingly affects more men than women. About 10 million men in the United States (7% of the male population) have a color vision deficiency compared to 0.4% of women. Caucasian men experience the highest prevalence of this disorder." [visionchannel.net] et al.
Try a colour vision deficiency test [toledo-bend.com] yourself.
C.f. the overheard conversation in Return to Castle Wolfenstein:
It's funny, until you ask the Institute of Electrical Engineers [iee.org] (largely composed of caucasian men) whether they require their members to be able to distinguish wiring colours. Go on, ask them. ;-)
Japanese eyes and Western eyes (Score:5, Interesting)
The early CIE eye tristimulus models (the figures for spectral sensitivities of the eye's red, green, and blue detectors used in the CIE standard colour spaces) are still based on a very small sample of people. I beleve the first standards were based on only 17 people, all white, male Europeans. Even now, I think most standards are based on a sample of a little over four hundred people.
Why? Well, you cannot easily measure the tristimulus directly, so you have to get each of your subjects to match a lot of colours to characterise their eye's sensitivity over the whole spectrum. Then each person has a different yellow spot on their eye - the size and the density can vary quite a bit - so there is a fair amount of natural scatter. The case for natural tetrachromats claims the women's eye red response is bimodal, but when you see the tristimulus functions plotted out, it is really hard to see the evidence for it.
We do not have to rely on western figures. The Japanese had independently worked on colour science. The Ishihara who did the eye test patterns (he hand-painted the first ones using watercolours) did some measurements. But, again the populations measured were fairly small.
On the other hand, we know that the ability to remember and perceive colours is greatly affected by experience, and even the words used to describe colours. Tests on Bornean tribesmen that had separate words for yellowish-green (Wor) and bluish-green (Nol) were relatively better at remembering and distinguishing contrasts between these two colours then some other pairs of colours that the rest of us would find more easy. Now Japanese uses 'akai' for bright red paint, but also for skin colour (usually in connection with emotions), and brown shoe colour. Brown is usually 'chairo', which is 'tea-colour' but they also use 'kitsune-iro' (fox color) and 'tsuchi-iro' (earth-colour). If we are familiar with tomato red, brown, ochre, and brick red, we are bound to respond to colours and colour contrasts differently, but this does not mean we see them differently.
So, are Eastern and Western eyes different? The figures we have would suggest that you would not be able to identify the race of a person by their eye response - we are much more alike then we are different. If we measured a few tens of thousands of people, we might be able to drag some systematic difference out of the noise. But I don't think we could tell whether it was a genetic difference of a cultural difference, even then.
The pink cast on the DVD is much bigger than these differences. It's clearly an error. The suppliers ought to have offered a replacement DVD. Next time, they might. Give 'em hell, fellas, gambatte kudasai!
official spirited away bitch thread (Score:5, Informative)
on the same forum there is another thread reporting that the publisher of the korean release (dec 7) has announced that it will not have the red tint--although i'm not sure how that's been arranged. this seems to be a pretty severe acknowledgement of the red tint problem if the report is true.
Screen capture showing the problem. (Score:5, Informative)
I have no knowledge about the problem, just passing on the link I found. The effect is somewhat subtle from a single image, but I bet it's much worse when you watch the whole movie. Seems quite possible that the shirt on the right should be white.
-
Re:Screen capture showing the problem. (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know the DVD format much, it must be some sort of TIF on seperate data channel, or unicode text.
btw, I hope they didn't use analogue stuff for remastering the DVD, if its the reason, like low red signal, it would be real funny.
Re:Screen capture showing the problem. (Score:5, Interesting)
Then, have a look at the unified histogram values of the picture and the red one: they are almost identical !
Another thing to do is to decompose the image in order to see the strength of each component. You will see that the red is very very very strong compared to other (look at the [to be supposed] white and green leafs).
A desaturation make the image flat and ugly because there are too much red. It is like if the image had have been badly normalized because normalization do nothing.
There is no doubt that the color components are badly balanced. At least in this picture.
Do an RGB Split Channel (Score:4, Informative)
The whole scene is skewed: R:141 G:119 B:63.
Worse is Haku's (boy on the right) shirt, supposed to be white: R:244 G:183 B:136
This looks like the white balance was pushed all the way to 6000K
Depends on the settings ? (Score:5, Informative)
"(...) Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi (Spirited Away)" is a digitally-animated movie produced by Studio Ghilbli, and its full-digital frames were designed and produced on computers. The coloration of the master for the DVD and VHS was strictly supervised/approved by Studio Ghibli's color designers and DP/Cinematographer.
The "Spirited Away" DVD/VHS was produced through an entirely novel procedure in mastering, and both Studio Ghibli and Buena Vista Home Entertainment Japan believe the quality of the DVD/VHS to be the best and the most faithful in terms of reproducing the original movie under the given circumstances.
As for the trailers on Disc 2, they have been included solely for the purpose of providing necessary information on the film, and because of this nature, it was not specifically color-corrected. Consequently, some differences in coloration may be detected between the same scene on the trailers on Disc 2 and the main feature on Disc 1. We assure the highest standard of quality control has been maintained on the manufacturing of both DVD and VHS, but differences in coloration may be detected depending on the type of equipment and/or the settings of the system being used.
That's their explanation at least.
Misleading (Score:1, Interesting)
The text of the quoted letter does not seem to bear out your statement. That's misleading. There was no claim in the letter that nothing was wrong.
Just to prove how red it is.. (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.digitald.uk.com/storage/s-away-red.jpg [uk.com]
Copy protection (Score:2, Funny)
What I wonder is... (Score:5, Informative)
Why are they asking for a replacement plus eighty dollars?
Has it caused them emotional and psychological distress to that degree?
Surely a replacement and legal expenses would be more reasonable...
Re:What I wonder is... (Score:5, Informative)
- You seek 10,000 yen per plaintiff. What is the basis of this amount?
I believe that we should not demand too much compensation because it is not as if we were harmed in any way. Our purpose is not financial, but rather to scrutinize the distributor's attitude as a corporation towards its clients. I think that this would not have become such a problem if Buena Vista had admitted its mistake when people complained in the first place; there would never have been any lawsuit if they had. I think that it is Buena Vista's attidude and response to the issue that are the problem
watch out (Score:5, Funny)
in other news (Score:1)
possibilities (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe it's a copy protection experiment.
Maybe it's a wierd attempt to (over)compensate for a phenomenon that is real in the still photo world - popualr images and the characteristics of print film make for much stronger red in U.S. film (e.g. Kodak especially when used in people shots) and much stronger blue in Japan.
Maybe it's a massive screwup (no kidding)
Maybe it's an attempt by Disney to hurt Ghibli (wouldn't put it past them)
Maybe it was made with a cutting edge "superior" technology that unfortunately looks like utter crap on most sets and nobody every tried it at home before going to print
At any rate those screenshots look like utter crap in comparison to the original film and what is considered reasonable in Japan.
DVD screen capture (Score:3, Informative)
Interesting thought (Score:1)
But my question is can the consumer really sue over this? We all know you can be sold crippled cds without warning(a whole nother argument). So my question is, what are the grounds of the lawsuit? Since they purchased the DVD for their region, one could say they knew it wouldn't neccisarily be identical to the US one. And the artists haven't spoken out to my knowlege(correct me if im wrong). So that leaves me to believe that the Disney machine will monkey stop them in court. Of course why not sue a large company like disney if you have a slight chance?
Anyway for the record: I agree it sucks that their version is a little red. I Would like to know if they can/should really sue over this.
Copy protection gone wrong? (Score:1)
I had no problems playing that DVD. However, sometime later I went and rented a DVD and it had a serious red tint. I couldn't figure out WTF was happening.
Finally I tried cabling the DVD Player straight to the television and it worked fine. I guess that the bastards screw with the output signal so that if it is recorded to video cassette that it has a red tint.
My guess is that this is a side effect of this copy protection..
Offtopic, but still Mainichi material :) (Score:1, Offtopic)
red tint, what about blue tint to LOTR? (Score:1)
English trlasnation of Mainichi article (Score:2)
Disney red-faced over 'faulty' DVD [mainichi.co.jp]
The poster ... (Score:1)
Angry Spirited Away Fans Strike Back (Score:1)
The Matrix (Score:3, Funny)
Tint is not a huge deal (Score:2, Informative)
Doesn't Disney care about their brand any more? (Score:3, Interesting)
Richard Schickel, in "The Disney Version," says that even in the forties Disney kept a tight rein on Disney-character-merchandise licensees. Many parents have observed that--whether or not you think the stuff is any good, anything with Mickey Mouse on it has always been durable and well-made. (In the seventies when the kids were little the "word" was that "that Winnie-the-Pooh stuff (from Sears) wears like iron.")
The theme parks are, or used to be, so well maintained that after a day in one you started to ache for the sight of mashed chewing-gum or a candy wrapper. Perfect paint jobs on all the rides, painted scenery in the rides with dozens of subtle pastels like the background paintings in a classic Disney cartoon...
And the home videos were always of good quality, too. Not that you noticed it much--it's the sort of thing that you don't notice unless there's a problem.
This is very, very strange. It doesn't sound like Disney at all. They used to be very careful stewards of their brand.
from this point of view... (Score:1)
here in germany should be happy for probably just gettin screened fansubs but therefore in Hayos colors...
but seriously: what can harm this master piece?!
No Offense, but.. (Score:2)
WTF was the problem? (Score:1)
Hopefully, the Region 1 release is better! (Score:2)
Mostly because here in the USA we have a huge number of folks with 32" or larger CRT televisions and an increasing number of folks with projection TV sets--any hint of a reddish tint on the Region 1 DVD release of Spirited Away will cause Disney to be read the riot act in a New York minute and then some.
I can't believe Disney did that... (Score:2)
Actually, i'm not really that suprised that they fucked it up, i'm just amazed that they actually got around to releasing it in the first place.
Well-known problem in industry. (Score:2)
From the article:
and quote two:
Now if you have worked with computer monitors, TVs, and broadcast standards at all, you should have heard about RGB, NTSC, and PAL.
RGB is the way that computer signals are sent. It is a pure encoding of the percentage of Red, Green, and Blue to display at some location (based on the current beam position and timing).
NTSC (used in the US) encodes the information in YIQ color space. When color TVs were invented, they decided to keep backwards compatibilty with B/W tv's. Thanks to a bit of math that is beyond the scope of a /. post, the red waveform was distorted and other colors are clipped, so that red becomes more intense, and pure yellow, cyan, red, and blue are all impossible to get. Red becomes more intense than the RGB display, and blue is muted.
PAL (used everywhere else) encodes the information in YUV color space, or YPbPr. In this case, where again, scaling and TV hardware result in different color than the RGB that computer monitors display.
So when the distributors say "the DVD should be played on Liquid Crystal TV or Plasma TV, so should be no problem for its quality" what they mean is We didn't convert RGB to the YUV or YIQ color space either because they forgot (what customers say) or because they meant it to be viewed on an RGB display (what the studio is saying).
Is that a real problem? Most people who have to deal with broadcasts say 'no' because your TV is supposed to have a tint and hue knob that you can frobnicate [dictionary.com] until you get the desired colors.
frob.
Here's how to (almost perfectly) correct it: (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, I had heard that there was a slight red tint before I got the disc, but HOLY COW was it noticeable. I don't buy for a second that it was intentional, for two reasons:
1) The "balanced for Plasma and LCD screens" excuse is bullshit. If Plasma and LCD screens displayed a different white balance or color gamut than CRTs, then no one would want them. I'm tempted to make an unaltered DVD-R of the film and take it over to the Fry's and try it out on their big Plasma TVs, but I know what the outcome would be.
2) The "we wanted a warmer look for the film" excuse doesn't fly, either. This is because even the Studio Ghibli logo at the beginning of the feature is way off. The other six Ghibli DVDs I have all have the same, pure blue Ghibli logo at the beginning. This one was more of a coral color; it's clearly a different color. After adjusting the color balance in the rest of the film back to Earth standards, surprise -- the logo looked normal.
So, in case anybody else is as much of a freak, here's how I corrected the color on my copy, using TMPGEnc:
Using TMPGEnc's "Custom Color Correction":
RGB Brightness (0, 28, 46)
RGB Contrast (0, 71, 134)
RGB Contrast 0 base (-10, 0, 0)
Basic Setting (0, 0, -10, 0, 0)
YUV Saturation (18)
That gets the picture very close to the original, as compared to the non-red-shifted trailer included on the Spirited Away DVD and Kiki's Delivery Service DVD.
Hey, there's another thought: maybe there's nothing wrong with the color -- maybe we're all just moving away from the TV really fast.
I wonder whether the lawsuit will do anything for non-Japanese residents...
Maybe they overcompensated for... (Score:2)
Shocker! (Score:2)
Read my article about the DVD red tint problem. (Score:1)
Last Post! (Score:1)
the author stating why he is publishing the article, and what value he
sees in it. I have no hope that this practice will ever be adopted.
-- Morris Kline
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...
Re:Hi! (Score:3, Funny)
You were forgetting that titles with "Strike Back" in them have always had a special meaning to nerds.
Re:Hi! (Score:4, Funny)
Watch for my next story submission, "Playstation Bluetooth Tenchi DMCA Beowulf Strikes Back. Khaaaaaaaaaaaaan!"
from the now-you've-got-our-attention dept.
Re:If you don't like it: don't buy it! (Score:1)
"The Japanese consumers in the Kyoto and Hyogo prefectures of Japan have filed a lawsuit against Walt Disney Japan over the red tint on the Japanese DVD release of Spirited Away."
Re:If you don't like it: don't buy it! (Score:1)
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:2)
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:2)
Um, you can sue a restaurant where the food tastes lousy, or (more relevantly) if it's not what they described on the menu, if they charge you for it before you have a chance to see or taste it, and if they then refuse to remedy it. Once they have your money, they have an obligation to deliver what they promised, and if they refuse to do so, the courts are your final resort.
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:2)
You say "stop buying it" is the solution, and not a lawsauit. But what about those that have already bought the DVD? They have already given their money to Buena Vista/Disney. Stop buying is not an option for them.
You continue on to compare it to a restaurant. In most restaurants I know of, you eat first, and pay later. If the food is not satisfactory, you take it up with the manager or restaurateur or who ever may be in charge. Chanses are, you won't have to pay, and perhaps even get an apology for the lousy food you've just been served. At least they will try to rectify the situation, even if that means just giving you a new dish, hopefully better prepared/cooked.
In this very case, Buena Vista states that the redish tint is normal, and they have no reason to give you your money back. They have it, and the only thing left to do is to sue them.
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:2)
Lawsuits are Legitimate Free Market Actions (Score:5, Insightful)
To suggest that, merely by being producers in the market, businesses are exempt from answering for their torts disingenuously implies that they are somehow not a part of the social system within which they chose to do business. If a law was broken I see no reason a business shouldn't have to answer for it.
The market is one avenue for redress, indeed, but that's no reason to utterly deprecate legal remedies.
Re:DivX release corrected (Score:1)
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:2)
Not every business has the right to produce inferior products. Brake pad manufacturers don't. House builders don't. Disney may have the right to stamp "premium" on an obviously broken translation of an incredible movie, but we as consumers also have the right to sue the greedy bastards for our money back + gas, food, and tolls.
Don't be so quick to abandon your rights as a human being. The market has but one hand of god.
- C
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:1)
Judging from the screenshots posted, the DVD is obviously defective - the colours from the theatre version were amazing, these are anything but. If Buena Vista admitted to their mistake, pulled the DVD from shelves and fixed the problem before selling more, there would be little grounds for a lawsuit - but they seem to be knowingly selling a defective product, while claiming nothing's wrong with it.
TV signals (Score:1)
USA uses NTSC, a 525-line, 60 Hz television data signal standard set by the National Television Standards Committee.
Japan uses NTSC, but its broadcast signals are on slightly different frequencies than USA NTSC. This is why TVs sometimes have a bit of trouble tuning in signals from old Famicom systems. Baseband video (i.e. video and audio over separate RCA plugs) is not affected.
Europe uses PAL, a 625-line, 50 Hz standard. It achieves better resolution by allocating more bandwidth to color. It corrects for the phase noise endemic in NTSC by changing the baseline phase every scanline (i.e. Phase Alternation by Line).
Brazil uses a 525-line, 60 Hz variation of PAL called PAL/M. Most European TVs can receive PAL/M signals, and many European game consoles have a 50/60 switch that selects between PAL and PAL/M output.
Some small regions of the world use "SECAM", which I have not studied in depth.
Re:A lawsuit is redundant (Score:2)
A lawsuit is redundant, suite (Score:2)
Again, I definitely defend Disney's right to create a hundred thousand unhappy customers, just as I'd defend the right of United to deliver bad service at high prices and go bankrupt.
My comment was ironic, fgs. Anyhow, what happened to the color adjustment buttons that used to make TV such fun?