Andy Grove Speaks out on Offshore Outsourcing 701
molarmass192 writes "Andy Grove, of Intel fame, "spoke out" at a recent technology summit in Washington about the current trend towards offshore outsourcing and how it's causing the US to slowly but surely lose its edge in the tech sector. He states plainly that the US government must step in to restore balance between the need for profits and the lure of offshore outsourcing. There are also pokes at the patent system and slow adoption of broadband internet access. An interesting insight into what's going on inside the heads of the US's tech leaders."
Wow. (Score:2)
Re:Wow. (Score:2)
"Grove also criticized the nation's overburdened patent system, which he said is causing an abundance of innovation-slowing litigation.
"He said that the inability of patent examiners to handle the workload has led to a backlog of important applications, but also less than thorough vetting of patents that perhaps should not be granted. "
Interesting (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
What's so interesting about that? It's not ironic, if that's what you're implying. It's kind of hard for businesses to sell products if the people who buy them are unemployed.
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
Can't we have lower prices, better pay, competition without losing our jobs?
Why not?
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
Where exactly is the money going to come from?
Are you one of those people that gets surprised that the cost of goods goes up and college kids get laid off when the minimum wage gets hiked up?
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
Re:Interesting-Trade Deficit (Score:2)
That is one of the reason's free trade, isn't.
Re:Interesting-Trade Deficit (Score:2)
Shocking (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Shocking (Score:2)
The problem isn't the competition, it's the short-sighted decisions to use these companies. It may be cheaper to produce this stuff, but the people who make the tech stuff tend to be the people that buy the tech stuff. Can't do that if you don't have a job.
I have a piece of advice for you: When you're making comments like "How dare countries compete with America", 9 times out of 10 you are missing a huge chunk of information a
Re:Shocking (Score:2)
Re:Shocking (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, Thank God! (Score:2)
Now, how to stop it? I favor use of tariffs to force up the price of offshore workers (might be tough to enforce, but if a company *sells* in the US, which is where you want to sell if you want to make the big bucks, we have some influence; if they can keep the Big 3 in business, they can help us out, too).
My jerkoff company just shipped a huge section of its QA effort
Re:Oh, Thank God! (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice idea, except that the US economy's success is predicated on open trade and open enterprise. Your attitude doesn't surprise me much. Free enterprise and trade is great until it effects you, and the average American has no qualms about being hypocritical when it serves.
The fact is that introducing tariffs will make the situation worse, not better. More industry will move offshore because the cost of doing business in the US will rise. Countries will retaliate with their own tariffs and the amount of business going to the US will fall.
The fact is that most IT jobs are commodities: system administration, building web pages, support, most programming (visual basic, etc) and the like can be done by anyone. The only solution is to innovate, become more efficient and smarter in how you do things.
I live in a country with a relatively small, export oriented economy. Reform and increasing exposure to international competition has made the economy more robust and efficient.
Re:Oh, Thank God! (Score:2)
Many of these countries already have the high tariffs of their own, and that is part of the problem.
Free trade doesn't mean "get taken advantage of". If they're gonna tariff your goods and try to balance things so that you buy from them but can't sell to them, then the way I see it, you're free to counter such things.
Re:Oh, Thank God! (Score:2)
From what I've heard, trade negotiations with China are extremely frustrating. They flat out refuse to make any concessions because they know we need them more than they need us and unless something changes here, nothing is
Re:Oh, Thank God! (Score:2)
Re:Oh, Thank God! (Score:3, Interesting)
Regulation. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Regulation. (Score:2)
We, meaning regular citizens, need to get involved in government, not live in fear of it. And that means a lot more than voting (though half of us registered voters don't even do that). This is a democracy, remember? You can work to affect change. But so long as we continue to just throw up our hands and chant "government is evil" over and over, you can bet the government we eventually end up with will be st
Re:Regulation. (Score:2)
Um... excuse me... (Score:3, Insightful)
And where are Intel processors manufactured again? Or is it only a problem when it effects white collar workers?
Re:Um... excuse me... (Score:2)
They are *packaged* and *tested* in Malaysia, Costa Rica, and other countries, but the actual core of the chips are manufactured in US.
Re:Um... excuse me... (Score:2)
The US has regulations about exporting technology below
Otherwise I imagine Intel would be on the first boat out.
Re:Um... excuse me... (Score:2)
You can't have it both ways.
Re:Um... excuse me... (Score:2)
Fucktard.
Ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
China #2
India #22
As the IT mgt books say, "Don't outsource your strategic intellectual capital!". Unfortunately, most corps don't seem to think of this and they're outsourcing everything they can just to save a few bucks.
I saw an article a few months ago, I think CIO.com, that mentioned how United Technologies saved a whole $7 million (US) on their IT budget by sending some work over to India. I thought, "Wow! Seven million dollars US!". Then I looked. Their IT budget is over a billion dollars. So they saved a whole 0.7% by going overseas. In the meantime, their employees are demoralized for having seen their buddies lose their jobs and some poor bastard(s) have to stay in the middle of night to deal with people on the other side of the world, because if they don't - it's their ass too!
There I go again, ranting!
Offshore means "ON SEA". Not in other countries. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Ironic... (Score:2)
This is not a coincidence! Imagine how much cheaper software development can be if you don't have to pay several thousand dollars per seat for software tools! This is what the BSA is succeeding in doing - driving work to places where that have no enforcement. I'd like to see the figures -- exactly how many copies of Visual C++ have those hundreds of thousands of Indian software developers purc
Eventually... (Score:2)
Re:Eventually... (Score:2)
Re:Eventually... (Score:2)
I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm currently unemployed and directly due to off-shoring. It sucks to be unemployed - trust me. However I think that it is really silly to put barriers in place.
No 1. You inevitably get what you pay for. After having lost my job, the company I worked for now has a team of people in asia and they cost far more than the team we had here in the valley and they have yet to deliver squat.
I think that these off-shore arrangements only work if you have a very strong cultural match between off-shore supplier and local organization or if it is managed very carefully. Very few US organizations are capable of pulling off such a feat and it is inevitable that most of these off-shoring relationships will result in huge craters.
The US tech recession is the result of the "perfect storm", a) Bubble pops, b) oversupply of skilled immigrants c) Oversupply of "cheap" skilled workers. So, a) the bubble popped and it's now starting to come out of recession, b) immigrant quotas have been curbed, and c) there is only so much you can outsource.
It will recover, just be prepared to hold out for a few more months (up to 12 months). Keep abreast of the skills you need with your spare time.
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
It always surprises me when people give dates to these sort of things.
I do hope you find a job soon, but people have been saying "next quarter will be better" for the last 2 years.
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
if you dont work there, how do you know?
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:3, Informative)
An important customer of theirs called me yesterday and talked about it. They are so dead.
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
You're unemployed because you don't have skills that are in demand. Just because you have a skill doesn't mean that someone will give you a job. No-one owes you a job. Why don't you get some training in something that people want?
I've worked in the IT industry for near on 20 years and I've had lots of work when my skill has been in demand. Inevitably it drops off after a few years, so I learnt something else and got lots of work in that. It had no
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
I'm also curious what skills you've learned that tailed off after a few years only to learn another, over this 20-year span. I'm not sure that 'network security' or 'network administration with 10-15 years experience' is something that really tails off, per se'.
Nonetheless, it seems your 20 years of experience hasn't taught you that while nobody owes anyone else a job, people who have been outsourced owe nobody their platitude in accepting conditions a
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
Uh-ha. So you're insinuating I'm telling a lie? Why is it so challenging to accept that I've worked for 20 years in IT? They did have computers in 1983, you know.
You obviously haven't worked for very long in the industry, becuase it's obvious things go in and out of fashion. In the local industry database work is plentiful. Within that various front ends have come and gone and are being replaced by Java. Same with databases and report generators. I've
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
This used to be true. But these days it's hard for a software engineer to get a job even if he's got the perfect skillset, simply because his cost of living makes him, by definition, far more expensive than someone offshore. The "problem" is that software is perfectly portable,
Re:Job glass half empty, and leaks. (Score:2)
The fact is that overseas cheap labour has the capacity to make the US mor
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
Yeah, you're right. The only way to lower prices is to increase your costs. How could I have been so stupid!
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
(b) What has that got to do with the subject at hand?
(c) Did you know that a non-US resident can hold a
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
I swear to god, these guys are running a scam. The workers only get about 1/2 the work dont that I expect. I have a feeling that the developers are doing the work of more than 1 project at a time. So I suspect that they're working for my project about 1/2 the time, but billing me 100%.
I can't prove it. But I can't get these guys to get their productivity up. In a wa
Re:I'm unemployed and I disagree with Grove (Score:2)
Or they are less skilled than they say/you think. Actually, if I knew the client was as physically far away as possible without leaving the planet, I might try and rip off clients like this to maximize profits while I can.
What is my reputation to an industry half a world away? They know they are getting programmers on the cheap, what do they expect when they exploit my fine employees? How much pressure or motiv
Bah! government help = bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Tariffs or other protectionism would not work-- what would we do? demand that XX% of code is written in North America?
The software sector is simply waking up to something that has happened to every other sector: as the segment matures, labor becomes portable, and therefore companies will seek the cheapest labor possible. Trying to stop this only costs consumers, and-- perversely-- the very segment they are trying to protect via regulation compliance costs, taxes, and loss of overseas marketshare.
You want a job? innovate. Become efficient. Figure out howto make money by "exploiting" all that cheap Chinese labor yourself. Find something that those rising Chinese and Indian middle-class consumers want.
If you want action from the government, demand that they stop supporting 19th century industries and that they demand open trade with other countries. Protectionism is going back.
Let me voice my opinion in
Re:Bah! government help = bad (Score:2)
Thanks for letting me know!
Re:Bah! government help = bad (Score:2)
I agree, market protectionism can only backfire. It screwed up the US steel trade, it will probably sink the US IT industry if carried out. Countries that we put up barriers against generally put up reciprocal barriers against the US.
Hypocracy? PR? Honesty? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know that business owners really control their business as much as we imagine they do.
For one thing, when businesses get really really big and complex, I suppose the left hand doesn't know what the right hands doing, and the business "owners" don't really know what it's doing either. It just sort of runs, but they don't really know how.
Maybe, theoretically, they could issue an order down, like "Hey, only package your chips over here," right? But could i
DMCA eh? (Score:2, Insightful)
Either unionize or professionalize! (Score:2)
The alternative is to have computing be a profession like lawyer-ing and doctor-ing. They have trade asociations that are so powerful they can't be ignored. To practice law or medecine you must be part of the profession. To what extent does this protect lawyers and medics from overseas outsourcing?
Re:Either unionize or professionalize! (Score:2)
I think that a bigger threat to the medical professionals will be intelligent databases that are able to diagnose patients better than a doctor could. A doctor that makes a diagnosis is following some sort of standard decision tree that they all learn about in med school. A well trained database could theoretically do the same job. It could potentially be better than a human if it
Re:Either unionize or professionalize! (Score:2)
While computer-diagnoses may one day do a better job than human doctors, that day ain't here yet, nor it is visibly on the horizon. Just the history of the patients current and prior problems requires a degree of insight that computers don't have. You also have to know about current disease epidemics, social issues involving their health, etc.
But the bigg
Re:Either unionize or professionalize! (Score:2)
Re:Either unionize or professionalize! (Score:2)
AI has for years now promised all sorts of wonderful new improvements to life, but for the most part it's still very pie in the sky. They're pretty good at playing chess now though!
Physical exam isn't as simple as you seem to
Re:Either unionize or professionalize! (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't unions or professional organizations that prevents lawyering and doctoring from going off-shore. It's the fact that to perform the duties necessary to those professions, you actually have to physicall
Medicine already seeing "in-sourcing" (Score:3, Interesting)
Each time I've been there, I've been treated by a doctor who was foreign born and in one case, had been in the US less than a year (I asked). One doctor was from Egypt and the other was from Romania. Both appeared to be what I'd call "awkwardly competant" -- they treated my ailments, but t
Oh...please stop them (Score:2)
I mean, English at least is a subset of the alphabet used in the majority of the occident. Currently almost every computer language is "english based" meaning the keywords are in English, or English based, and thus easy to learn to roman alphabet users.
However if this trend continue, maybe we soon will have Bali based languages, or wordt yet, 3000 characted Mandarim based computer language.
Government doesn't have to do anything (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen the results of several outsourced projects. These projects are so fucked up, it's unbelievable. This must have to do something with the management there, because I've seen some very impressive Indian developers over here in the US (not that many, either, but then I'm hard to impress) and I don't believe they can't find any good developers there. It's just that the results of the outsourced work are often unmaintainable piles of horrendously written spaghetti code.
I have yet to see one single exception from this.
Re:Government doesn't have to do anything (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a web consultant based in Canada. Our clients tend to be organizations that outsource most of their IT, and we've seen an increase in overseas offshoring, primarily to India, in the last couple of years. Almost without exception the quality of work is awful. Projects are poorly planned and code is indecipherable.
I find it hard to believe that this is because there aren't any good Indian developers. The situation seems to be more reminiscent of the bubble days of the tech economy in North America, when
Re:You get what u pay for (Score:2)
Re:You get what u pay for (Score:2)
carriers just to posture in front of his people
rather than build roads and infrastructure? And
is this the same Salam who claims that your
missile defence system is the greatest achievement
ever (initial claim was since Bose, revised to ever)?
Hmm, these guys may not be sooo bad and I am happy
for you being happy with them but they are hardly
people to look up to. Certainly in the US these
people would catch a lot more flak than Bush.
disingenuous (Score:3, Informative)
Things we need to fix: (Score:2, Interesting)
2) Lawyers. We're feeding trial lawyers when we should be feeding engineers. Everything from the SCO idiocy to suing McDonald's because some maroon burned themself
Re:Things we need to fix: (Score:2)
A targeted tax in the right place... (Score:2)
Place a tax on outbound international toll free calls of about 50 cents per minute. So much for the cost savings...
Re:A targeted tax in the right place... (Score:2)
it's inevitable--what's the alternative? (Score:2)
The US was incredibly lucky and advantaged for about 50 years following WWII. There is no way that kind of disparity and advantage can continue, even if the US were continuing its strong initial investme
If there was actually a choice of software (Score:2)
subject title (Score:5, Insightful)
Indians don't speak Indian.
I can't out-compete people for 1/10 my wages (Score:2, Informative)
It's not about being innovative. It's about being cheap.
I can't compete with 3 people who are just as smart as I am and work for 1/10 my wages. And I'm not so fucking arrogant as to think that I am in the top
So I guess that means I should just work at the Gap for a living right (if I'm lucky) ?
The only answer
Here's an idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Some may not like to hear this but boys are the primary source of young engineers and right now, public education is taking a big dump on them.
I have several friends in the industry that are good engineers, but without degrees. Public education pushed them away. They are the kind of people I'm talking about. What's a PHB going to do when he compares them with someone from another country that has his degree?
There's some other stuff here:
The War Against Boys [theatlantic.com]
outsourcing not a level playing field (Score:2, Interesting)
I believe that one of the reasons that labour is significantly cheaper in India is because the socioeconomic system is vastly different. India has government sanctioned bonded child workers. And whenever you can introduce virtual slaves into an economy, you can dramatically drive down the price
It's not just the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Apart from this a fair amount of manufacturing, production (and coding) has been flowing towards Eastern Europe as those countries join the EU. The EU hopes that it will somehow balance itself out in that very large companies in Western Europe will have branches in Eastern Europe and that that way cash will flow backwards as well.
I think one thing that can really stay local in the IT world (and this applies to the US as well) is for people to start their own small companies specialising in other small companies in other sectors in the local economy. Programmes such as Tax or local business oriented stuff as well as doing consulting and support on a small scale are a good answer.
Another answer is to start a local company that adresses the problems that the people's previous companies cause by outsourcing coding to people who have low QA and communication skills in the local language.
As an example, let's take, for example a certain Desktop publishing layout software from a company in Denver Colorado. This company's product has had a virtual monopoly in DTP for more than 13 years. About three or four years ago, IIRC, that company (use your brains as to who that is) outsourced the entire software development to India. About six months to a year later, Indian developers from this company started popping up in developer mailing lists asking really basic C/C++ questions and acting very arrogant when they didn't get immediate answers. Aparently those Indian developers were so bad (relatively speaking, probably more a management problem) that it took them almost three years to port that DTP programme to Mac OSX, where it finally turned up a few months ago.
That would have been and was an opportunity for competitors to step in and develop alternatives.
Think about it. Tarifs and high import taxes will not solve anything in the long run, as the USA is no longer in the position to be able to simply dictate economic terms to the EU, India or China (or SE Asia to an extent), and if such measures are taken, sonner or later they'll reply in kind, and then you truly will be f**ked.
It's not just the Americans that lose (Score:3, Interesting)
I live in New Zealand and work (embedded firmware etc) for a company owned by an American corporation. My salary + overheads are a third of what it costs to put an American behind a desk to do the same job. OK, we're not talking complete swe
Re:Seriously (Score:2)
(mod parent funny, if you're willing to waste mod points on idiots who don't bother to sign in)
Re:Global worker rights (Score:3, Insightful)
Turn blue, holding your breath.
The U.S. has re-modeled itself on an econoic and political model borrowed from Argentina in the '70's, and the rest of the world is charging along behind. E.U.? wants to be as big a Banana Republic as U.S. and China...
Re:Global worker rights (Score:2)
you should feel a bit miffed that an unelected international body can restrict what laws your locally-elected (or "kinda elected" in bush's case) can enact.
of course the u.s. gov't is not in favour of the outsourcing brain drain but at the cancun summit india and several other
Re:Global worker rights (Score:2)
Re:Global worker rights (Score:5, Interesting)
That would include those to whom the offshore work is going, who have right to. .
You will also need monocultural global economy for it to work. You are perhaps thinking that that the reason jobs are going overseas is because workers are being exploited by being underpaid, i.e. being payed less than you are ( and thus being able to outbid you on your own job).
This is falacious reaoning. Most of these workers are taking the jobs because they are the best paying jobs available in their local economy where prices on life's necessities are quite divergent from our own. As are their ideas on just what constitutes a necessity.
Poor countries are not, I repeat not analogous to poor sections of rich countries and cannot be treated as such.
Paying someone $40/hr in a $1/hr local economy isn't treating those workers "fairly." It's totally destroying the local economny with runaway inflation, bringing misery to those that can't get those jobs, must pay $40/hr prices, but still make $1/hr. Revolutions have been fomented over much less.
The fact of the matter is that the rest of the world loves being thus "taken advantage of." You earn your $40/hr in a rich local economy that has become rich, at least in part, by taking advantage of poorer nations who now find themselves in a place to compete to get some of that back.
Your job will come back when all nations are equally rich, or all nations are equally poor, and thus share a common economy.
And you can't mandate that. It has to evolve. Or hundreds of millions will suffer. Even die.
You'll also find that most people who wish to protect American jobs think they can do it by opposing a global economy. I can't but feel that most of these people are fairly well off, always have been, have never lived extensively in a third world nation as a local would and thus generally being somewhat clueless as to how things really work, here or there.
Do you want to preserve American jobs and promote global worker's rights?
Go to Mexico. Build houses for the poor while earning a local wage for it.
You might learn something.
KFG
Re:Global worker rights (Score:4, Interesting)
Absolutely correct, and rather frightening, actually.
Capitalism is about driving towards economic efficiency, and that means Walmart devouring everything in the American general retail market and countries with cheaper cost structures providing whatever labor they possibly can, to maximize corporate profits.
I'm starting to see a lot more pro-tariff proposals in reaction to this, but in the absence of that sort of trade policy, it seems inevitable that wages will eventually reach equilibrium, corrected for education and technological resources.
Which wouldn't be bad, but it suggests a dramatic reduction in the absolute standard of living in the United States.. or perhaps just a reduction in the rate of growth of standard of living. 21st century middle class Americans enjoy in many respects a far higher standard of living than the absolute richest did in the 19th.
There are things that could preserve our higher standard of living, though, potentially.. the biomedical industry might do it, if American companies can extract enough wealth from the rest of the world for a cure for AIDS or malaria or antibiotic-resistant tuberculosis or the cancers. The technology industry might do it, except we really are giving away the store when it comes to open source software..
Anyone know of any good science fiction or speculative non-fiction that deals in detail with what such a move towards economic equilibrium might look like in this country, say 20 years out?
Re:Global worker rights (Score:3, Interesting)
Then we'll take up what the possible difference between these states and fascism is. It isn't a pleasant subject.
You make one fundamental assumption that is false though. Capitalism and Corporatism are not the same thing. Free trade is the natural human state. Modern corporations are government contructs upheld at the point of a gun.
They are serfdom, not capitalis
Re:Global worker rights (Score:3, Insightful)
This is falacious reaoning. Most of these workers are taking the jobs because they are the best paying jobs available in their local economy...
Although it is true that these jobs in the developing countries are the best paying, that point is moot. Why? Because people will work, not just in those "high paying" jobs, but also in practically everything else. The crux of hte problem is that the majority of the workers in the world are underpaid and
Re:Global worker rights (Score:3, Interesting)
It may amuse some countries to see the citizens of most first world countries squatting in the streets because they can't afford a place to live on world wages, but I won't be too happy about it. Other than housing costs, however, I would ten
Re:I just wrote abou this in my LiveJournal: (Score:3, Interesting)
I made this arguement to a senior manager of mine a while ago -- we're a health insurance company, and I pointed out that if we were to spend a few million to lobby and get heavy tarrifs passed on outsourced labor, the number of new customers we'd gain/save in the next few years would *far* ou
Re:I just wrote abou this in my LiveJournal: (Score:2, Interesting)
The Portland area economy is in the dumps, people cant get jobs because they are "overqualified," I would gladly work at Comcast Cabl
Re:I just wrote abou this in my LiveJournal: (Score:2)
Since Japan's economy hit the shitter a few years ago, China has replaced it as the key creditor of the United States.
China maintains a fixed and unrealistic exchange rate with the United States to maintain a favorable trading relationship. This policy will end someday, which makes investing in anything but factories in China a dangerous proposition. So Chinese industrialists buy US Treasury securities.
When you pass heavy trade tariffs and start a trade war that convin
Re:A perverted form of capitalism (Score:2)
Re:A perverted form of capitalism (Score:2)
Natural selection doesn't apply to humans. (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, and the people with power in the U.S. don't care about keeping America in power. They're global, meaning they operate on a global scale sans petty concerns like patriotism. Nationalism is just something to keep the rubes in line. That's the major failure of capitalism. Adam Smith assumed small shop owners who had a stake in their community, and who themselves suffered if the community went to hell. Now global capitalists just move away from their rotting comminities. The slums are exported to poor countries, and the rich live where they don't have to worry about the crime, violence and polution they're creating.
Yeah, now that we all time to read slashdot (Score:2)
For the most part outsourcing is a smart move for US tech firms. The International tech market is where the action is. So it is best for U.S. firms to be securing toe holds in the International market.
It is politically unpopular, but the big wage disparity between countries means U
Re:-1 Irrelevant (Score:2, Interesting)
Just as you are doing now. I gather you see yourself as the opposition though.
Constantly moving jobs to ever cheaper locations is a no-win scenario. For one thing, there will always be somewhere cheaper -- one day Mexico is the place to manufacture, then it's various parts of Asia. Today software engineering is being done in India -- but wages are already rising and India looks a lot like the U.S. 2-3 years
Re:-1 Irrelevant (Score:5, Interesting)
FYI, Indian companies already outsource to China, today. China, Eastern Europe/Russia, Vietnam, Mexico, etc. In fact, so called "daisy-chaining," where an Indian company gets a US contract due to its relationships and reputation, and promptly outsources it elsewhere, is the new buzzword. Computerworld calls this "a trend to watch."
You want to talk about China? The Sept 15 Computerworld had an article about outsourcing that profiled a number of different countries. Here's some fun quotes and facts about China:
Get your raincoats, storm's coming.
Capitalism works (Score:2)
Don't get me wrong. The software the Indian company developed did *EXACTLY* what we asked them to develop. Unfortunately, it had all the earmarks of code developed by a bunch of amatures. That is, the code was not easily modified and was not flexible and extensible. Like it or not, a lot
Re:Free Trade (Score:2)
Too many Indians get their "degrees" from diploma mills or by openly cheating. Their rates are so cheap that letting them learn on the job is still somewhat cost-effective.
Re:Free Trade (Score:2)
Maybe my experience doesn't meet yours, but I have found that outsourced engineers have less experience and qualifications and much more difficulty communicating than the veteran employees that they replaced.
That's a sentiment that many people here share and is not Xenophobia or racism.
Re:Outsourcing a result of open source. (Score:2)
They need to build expertise over there in MS product.
In the US, Microsoft has been incredibly successful in developing a sales channel of large & small consulting firms and VARs that pimp MS product and MS product only. They are trying to bring that strategy to India as well.
Re:What if China stops exporting to the U.S. ? (Score:3, Informative)
What will China do if the US decides to stop importing from China? While China currently runs a large trade surplus with the US (OTOO $100B per year, I believe), they do not run a trade surplus with the world as a whole. IIW, they are spending those dollars on goods and services, they're just not buying them from the US. What happens to their growing economy if the US quits funding the expansion? Think in terms of serious economic cra