Intenet2 Backbone Upgrades 231
An anonymous reader "Looks like Abilene, the backbone for Internet2 will join Canada's CA*Net3 and Europe's GEANT as one of the fastest research networks on the planet. According to this press release, Internet2 will be deploying 11 of Juniper network's freshly announced T640 platform. These puppies can cram 32 OC-192 (or 128 OC-48) interfaces into a single chassis. All in half a rack, too!" I'm
sure those students are very happy with their ping times. Meanwhile in the
real world... ;)
But Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:But Why? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:But Why? (Score:2, Interesting)
Students just get the added advantage of the high speed connections of game play with other students at other universities.
Re:But Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
But yes we do need that bandwidth. Espescially in Research and in Healthcare. I'm now doing some work on hooking up some healthcare organisations to glassfiber. They've done some interesting trials where they have several cameras and sensors looking at the patient, who is performing a walking excercise. The knowledge of the way a person is supposed to walk and the problems associated with that is scattered around the country. For half an hour they watch with several experts from across the country. Every doctor can interact with the patient and with each other. They can point things out to eachother etc. This results in better treatments and the identification of specific problems.
The amount of bandwidth that is needed for this is quite high. 5 to 6 cams with real-time video and real-time sensor read outs and then real-time discussions over multiple locations. Now imagine they do this for multiple patients at the same time
And then ofcourse there was the doctor that asked us if he could send real-time MRI scans to colleagues in the USA. (an estimated 1Gbit+/second):-)
Re:But Why? (Score:2)
Incorrect. Crime also exists, by default, where freedom is not.
Re:But Why? (Score:2)
That's not the point. When freedoms are taken away, that act in itself is a crime. Thus, crime exists where freedom is not.
Re:But Why? (Score:1)
Re:But Why? (Score:1)
On the Internet, the corollary is "... with pr0n."
Re:But Why? (Score:2, Funny)
What is it ? (Score:1, Funny)
Intenet2? Whats that... (Score:4, Funny)
Kramer
Re:Intenet2? Whats that... (Score:1)
Re:Intenet2? Whats that... (Score:1)
Re:Intenet2? Whats that... (Score:2)
Start typing those proposals now! (Score:4, Funny)
Whoops! sorry.... (Score:5, Funny)
That's a lot of bandwidth killed if someone trips on the power cord.
Re:Whoops! sorry.... (Score:2)
Okay fine! it looked funny in my head and it's to late to turn back now...
Re:Whoops! sorry.... (Score:2)
Over simplified, I was thinking of a switch that has 2 ports on the back and one on the front. If they are all 100 Mbps, then you have 200 Mbps on the back and 100 Mbps on the front.
Re:Whoops! sorry.... (Score:3, Informative)
First, these (and all core routers) have redundant power supplies. Second, the cords are screw-down DC power, which aren't going anywhere. Third, the front-panel throughput is a measure of how much traffic the line cards (ports on which all data enters and exits the router) can push, whereas the rear-panel throughput is a measure of how much the backplane can push between the (8) different line cards.
//Phizzy
Internet.... There are two??? (Score:4, Funny)
-Homer
Re:Internet.... There are two??? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Internet.... There are two??? (Score:1)
I love CA*Net3 (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I love CA*Net3 (Score:1)
But it's funny... when our main gateway goes down, we can often only get to the web sites of other Interent2 schools.
Re:I love CA*Net3 (Score:1)
Rescursive Obligation? (Score:2, Funny)
Hmm, cluster. (Score:1)
What is Intenet2? (Score:1)
Re:What is Intenet2? (Score:1)
The reason I ask is - it looks awfully dependent upon connections located near the shores of the US. What if the US was attacked?
Internet2 is gooooood ^_^ (Score:2, Funny)
[serious mode]I think this is a great thing for university's across the globe, so that information can exchange information fast again without being slowed down by everyone playing quake at the school computers...oh ok quake will always slow it down a little but on a larger scale the speed quakes takes is not that big now anymore
Re:Internet2 is gooooood ^_^ (Score:2)
again.... sorry it looked funny in my head...
ping times? (Score:2)
"The time it takes for a packet to go there and back? Why even bother to measure such a small amount of time?"
Re:ping times? (Score:4, Insightful)
Despite the throughput of these lines their latency will still be high when talking about transatlantic distances.
As far as I understood it a lot of this bandwidth will be used for real time work as well as transfer of large amounts of data - for real time you need to know latencies.
A fast line in Gbps is not necessarily a fast line in pings - 6 million modems will give you a 192Gbps connection - but the ping times will be stupid.
Re:ping times? (Score:2)
Re:ping times? (Score:3, Funny)
I didn't realise it was a joke as I assumed it was penned by an American.
If you are an American you should read that as a compliment.
If any other Americans are reading then you should read this as a joke.
Microsoft & Internet2 (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Microsoft & Internet2 (Score:4, Interesting)
traceroute research.microsoft.com
traceroute to research.microsoft.com (131.107.65.14), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 gallgtwy (134.231.4.2) 592.570 ms 40.421 ms 9.430 ms
2 gallgw (192.26.10.1) 0.557 ms 0.540 ms 0.459 ms
3 d3-2-1-1.a00.mclnva02.us.ra.verio.net (168.143.233.85) 1.308 ms 1.188 ms
[Lines deleted]
Verio is our Internet uplink.
If I go to UMD, my network goes through I2 with 1ms ping times.
traceroute www.umd.edu
traceroute to websrv1.umd.edu (128.8.10.105), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 gallgtwy (134.231.4.2) 2.251 ms 2.226 ms 2.689 ms
2 gallgw (192.26.10.1) 0.870 ms 0.613 ms 0.488 ms
3 clpk-t3-1-3-2.maxgigapop.net (206.196.177.133) 1.490 ms 1.484 ms 1.570 ms
4 wash-umcp.maxgigapop.net (206.196.177.50) 5.203 ms 380.967 ms 8.777 ms
5 Vlan14.css-core-r1.net.umd.edu (128.8.7.193) 1.767 ms 1.666 ms 1.577 ms
6 websrv1.umd.edu (128.8.10.105) 1.792 ms 1.631 ms 1.604 ms
Re:Microsoft & Internet2 (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Microsoft & Internet2 (Score:4, Funny)
I could hit 1meg a second to windowsupdate.microsoft.com
That must be fantastic -- imagine having to only spend a couple of hours downloading security updates.
Re:Microsoft & Internet2 (Score:2, Informative)
They have probably hunderds of mirrors around the world where the actual wares is downloaded from, you're automatically redirected to the closest one.
Works pretty fine here, they have one mirror in the same facility as where the Finnish University and Research Network [www.csc.fi] backbone is located, this gives me 4-5meg/s transfer speed from windowsupdate to my dorm at the campus of Helsinki University of Technology [www.hut.fi]
Re:Microsoft & Internet2 (Score:2)
There are a lot of other research organizations on I2, IBM, Sun, etc.
The Internet2 people get very upset if non-research traffic gets put on their network. I agree though: Quake3 lag testing in reasearch that NEEDS TO HAPPEN!
Microsoft's location on I2 (Score:2, Informative)
And for the poster who said Microsoft was not on I2, here is a press release [microsoft.com] stating that Microsoft was joining I2 in 1999.
CAnet3 (Score:3, Informative)
Re:CAnet3 (Score:2)
Same with CS [counter-strike.net] servers etc. (I get a "local" ping time to many sitting on
We see the majority of security attacks originate from college campuses. Melissa/ILOVEYOU originated from a college (albeit overseas), and nimda hit college campuses heavily because the largest and least secured netbios networks can be found on college campuses too. At the same time we also dealt with distributed fserv trojans that prefer university networks due to the high bandwidth allocations that we typically own. The minimum pipe spec'd for I2 is 155mbps, and usually you get the connection from your upstream ISP cooperating with the local I2 consortium. Same set of lines; the routing changes at the ATM or peering point. It is typically 10ms out to that, and then you either route through I1 or I2.
A good half of the hosts on p2p networks are college student dorm room machines. Any packets between
Impressive and important (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, though. Extreme bandtwidth like this can benefit the Unix crowd, by making thin clients a more feasible technology. PS2 with broadband internet and X11 should be able to run remotely run heavy apps. Anybody tried yet?
Ping times? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hopefully this goes a step in the direction of good ping times again.
Oh well.
-K
Re:Ping times? (Score:5, Interesting)
But these P2P apps adapt (simply because they are evil) and we are already seeing increases traffic. So guess what? We have to buy more bandwidth. I wonder if Joe Taxpayer likes the idea that his pennies on the dollar toward education go for through bandwidth at a blackhole so kids can playu Quake instead of studying. We roll the 622Mbps link on July 1 with one of those badass Juniper routers ($80000) to boot.
Geees (Score:2, Funny)
A univeristy network that is ment for studying and not pr0n trading ? Outrageous!
I wonder if Joe Taxpayer likes the idea that his pennies on the dollar toward education go for through bandwidth...
Ohh, I'd be more than happy if i knew my tax money went to pr0n/gaming bandwith!
Re:Ping times? (Score:3, Interesting)
It was before the boom of P2P apps but right when streaming audio was becoming very popular. we shared an isdn line for the entire office.
that chick who was like our office generalist, handled everything from HR, accounting, supplies, kept listening to streaming audio tho we told her to NOT DO THAT. influential thing she was.
it goes to show what happens when you make significant network resources available to undeducated, careless masses. this is sad. completely outrageous, unethical ...
But hey ... didn't take us long to figure out real audio streaming ports and her internal ip address and make adequate temporary adjustments to router settings >:]
but i can imagine how evil and out-of-hand p2p shit must get on college campuses. dewd just block the sorority chix. make'em come to you for help ;]
seriously tho, when i was in college, we could only use the in-dorm ethernet LAN if we registered our computer's unique MAC address with UCS (university computing services). The dhcp server would assign us an ip address upon booting when it recognizes that MAC address. i'm wondering how practical (most likely not) it would be to use a similar scheme to monitor bandwidth usage and network activity?
but hey. *we* were the geeks.
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
So guess what? We have to buy more bandwidth.
What about just banning P2P apps and turning off ports? I bet that would cost less.
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
And which ports would you like us to shut down, please?
just one - the ethernet port for the student that just violated the AUP by eating a full T3 for 2 days
Re:Ping times? (Score:1)
When IU banned Napster, I knew plenty of students who were not happy. I thought it was a good thing.
I simply wanted to know what caused the latency issue - since it seemed so random. I've always known what caused the bandwidth use.
-K
Re:Ping times? (Score:2, Interesting)
The Swedish University Network (sunet) has just upgraded to 2.4gbps to each uni with 10gbps backbone. And they hope it will be enough for 4-5 years.
The old one was 622mbps in the backbone and 155 to each uni. And that network has been overloaded for the last years.
Considering that the Unis in the US are much larger one would have thought you had fatter pipes. Is it common with so "bad" connectivity over there?
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
I'm not trying to start a war, just trying to get some fair numbers.
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
Re:Ping times? (Score:2, Informative)
There is probably transit through a few of the other ISPs also though.
There is much more than 10gbps bandwidth over the atlantic. In 2001 it was esimted there was 200gbps lit fibre.
Formal ways to be "nice" on the network (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Formal ways to be "nice" on the network (Score:2, Funny)
Re: Formal ways to be "nice" on the network (Score:2)
In the context of file-sharing applications, however, it might not be quite what an administrator is looking for. Usage-based pricing probably would solve the problem better. Hey, people don't expect to be able to print 50000 pages on the printer in the hallway for free; why should packets be any different? Internet2 connection is unmetered and isn't the problem (i.e., file sharing on Internet2 has a marginal cost of very close to zero for campuses).
Internet1 connection is pay-per-bit for the campus and typically pay-per-month for the resnet user. And exactly this is the problem.
Re:Ping times? (Score:1)
University of Colorado stats (Score:3, Interesting)
Salient features: Kazaa + Gnutella = 15% of our traffic (in and out), people run more FTP servers than they download from (4.2% up, 2.7% down), and pr0n-searching newsgroup readers account for 4.4% of downstream bandwidth usage.
Oh, don't forget to check out the graph labeled "Campus I/O By Network" (towards the bottom, mostly green). ResNet is the on-campus dorm network, JILA is a huge government research thing on campus, and I have no idea what Johnson is)
Re:University of Colorado stats (Score:2)
Moreover, if you are bothered by the NNTP, you can get a full (20-30 Mbps) news feed via satellite [cidera.com] for just a few hundred per month.
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
Re:Bandwidth Blues (Re:Ping times?) (Score:2)
Re:Ping times? (Score:2)
Swatting Flies with A Buick (Score:2)
Internet2 0wnz (Score:4, Funny)
More regions get connected (Score:5, Informative)
According to this page [dante.net] at Geante,
An important element of GÉANT is the development of connectivity with equivalent Research Networks in other world regions. Connectivity is being consolidated with the existing equivalents of GÉANT in North America (Abilene, CA*net) and in Asia-Pacific (SINET, KOREN, SingAREN) and developed further between Europe and the Asia-Pacific, North American, South American and Mediterranean regions
a bunch of extra regions get connected as well.
Actually, students don't get access to I2 (Score:1)
Many universities (not just those on internet 2) also have 100baseT lines set up for local, university traffic. But again, you need to request it explicitly.
This means that napster will still run at 10. I think that's still plenty fast for the unwashed masses.
Re:Actually, students don't get access to I2 (Score:2, Informative)
But how *fast* is it really?? (Score:1)
ping time / bandwith (Score:5, Insightful)
What it does is allow you to transfer more data. Consider this analogy: Sending a hundred postcards at once doesn't make your message get there faster, but it *does* give you space for a longer message.
Ofcourse Internet2 is also built to have low latencies, however the humongous bandwith doesn't contribute directly to this, except as in making congestion less likely.
Re:ping time / bandwith (Score:2)
So what you're saying is that the students _will_ get low ping times, but the Slashdot Editors got it wrong anyway? Something dosen't compute...
almost correct (Score:2)
- OS overhead on each end
- transmission time (getting the packet onto the wire at each hop)
- propagation time (getting the bits down the wire)
- queuing delay (waiting for the preceding packets to get through)
A congested link is a link that's dropping packets because it's full. Queuing delay is normal - yes, there's more of it on a congested link, but there will be some queuing delay (on average) even if the link is only 0.001% utilized.
You WILL see an decrease in ping times with multiple connections unless there is ZERO traffic aside from your ping.
Re:ping time / bandwith (Score:2)
DWDM ? (Score:4, Interesting)
DWDM would allow a single ring to cram anywhere from 32 x to 256 x the OC-192 capacity, on a single fibre (and on expensive equipment, that goes without saying :)
All major telcos/routers companies have nice DWDM offerings already today, and much more in their labs. Links: Nortel [slashdot.org], Lucent [slashdot.org], Cisco [cisco.com] ...
Re:DWDM ? (Score:2)
Re:DWDM ? (Score:2)
Re:DWDM ? (Score:2)
Ah, hell, I could be wrong about everything....
Re:DWDM ? (Score:3, Informative)
The Internet Backbone is kind of an old idea. I mean the main centres are still there, but many modern ISPs are meshing their networks quite densely. The telco-based old guys are still sitting there refusing to peer with anyone, but those that are meshing up are making for a much more stable Internet, the way it was originally intended. Just try knocking the thing over when half the large ISPs are linked to each other at diverse points. If chunks of the Internet disappear, a few phone calls are made and peering agreements briefly become transit agreements. No more problem.
That being said, I'm in Australia, and our speeds are alot slower than most in our backbone networks. But I know for a fact that Verio US has 192 fairly well deployed. Down here we're nowhere near that. I know a few years ago, Optus was running STM16s (OC48) so they might be close now. Mind you I don't think they've sold so much bandwidth that they'd have gone that far yet.
Re: DWDM ? (Score:2)
To another poster: Buying dark fiber works in metropolitan areas, but not with nation-wide backbones. You need to regenerate the signal every 300km or so.
you're right... (Score:2)
Actually... (Score:2)
The rest of the world also counts, for example, the asia-pacific continent with SINET, KOREN, and SingAREN.
Just my 5 EuroCents, Johan.
intenet? (Score:2, Funny)
The hay days of networking (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyways, before digressing, VT's outgoing pipe had two logical interface. Any packets bound to universites or other educational institutions that had access to the I2 via their local NAP points, would go through the then established oc-3. (The pipe might be fatter now). Any other packets that were bound for networks outside of these destinations were forwarded through the dual t-3 that was used for 'all other traffic'.
I onced did a traceroute to www.ucla.edu from a computer lab on campus during the middle of the day during the middle of the week and got amazing results. I found that there was only 8 hops between that desktop and the webserver that was in CA somewhere and all ping responses were less than 10ms. Talk about insane.
I believe other schools share the same network setup as VT and i wouldn't be surprised many of those once old pipes have now been upgraded to fatter ones. Then again, MCI does have a lot of dark fiber laid around the AMTRAK rails that has yet lit up.
However, despite with all this nice connection, I was recently told by several Virginia Tech on-campus residents that their connection has been capped up. I did some digging around and I believe that CNS is now capping the wall connections with the use of the catalyst 6500 catalysts from Cisco which I belive can limit network usage from reading all their marketing material... lol
Bottom line: Even if your organization or institutions had fat pipes to external networks, if your network capacity is limited from the point where you plug in your RJ45... don't expect to see blazing speeds).
BTW, as far as I know, they got the ports to the residents dorms set up to 10mpbs half duplex... ewwwww......
Re:The hay days of networking (Score:2)
I think the threat of a severe beating would keep habitual Kazaa idi^H^H^Husers in check.
Re:The hay days of networking (Score:2, Informative)
Hmm...I2 is now...faster than light! Tear down the front page!
10 ms from VA to CA is about 3000 miles in 10 ms. That's information traveling round-trip (6000 miles!) in 10 ms, or 600000 miles/second.
Approximately 3.5 times the speed of light. Now that's impressive.
Let's not get carried away here. :)
it truely is all about the ping (Score:1)
Re:it truely is all about the ping (Score:2)
Bummer (Score:2)
flows still show p2p apps on Internet2 (Score:4, Interesting)
port flows octets packets duration
FastTrack 22.010 26.377 17.495 19.339
Gnutella 8.358 5.069 7.138 11.082
http 4.201 4.566 2.565 1.151
ftp-data 0.738 3.284 1.866 0.915
eDonkey-2000 0.896 1.132 0.769 1.111
ssh 0.428 1.063 0.753 0.337
Neomodus-Direct 0.591 0.706 0.823 1.057
51872 0.017 0.513 0.302 0.086
ftp 0.636 0.444 0.337 0.296
aol 0.139 0.428 0.302 0.291
bbh
Re: flows still show p2p apps on Internet2 (Score:2)
Traffic that goes over Ca*Net3 = (surprise!) KaZaA (Score:5, Informative)
If you check out the traffic graphs, you can see that well over half the traffic is kazaa. (click on application-bits)
http://205.189.33.73/www/flowscan/nrc.html [205.189.33.73]
Taxpayers' dollars hard at work indeed! The cool thing is that at most times these nodes aren't anywhere near their maximum data transfers at any time that I check them. That's probably just because nobody really knows about it and only use it if they happen to connect to someone else on the network and their university has the routing setup correctly... Also, not all the universities in Canada I've connected to make full use of the network, some limit bandwidth to their users even on this "free" (gov't subsidized) network. From what I hear though, the free part will soon change and the universities/gov't offices will have to pay for it in the upcoming years, but right now it's basically free bandwidth for those on the network.
Re:Traffic that goes over Ca*Net3 = (surprise!) Ka (Score:2)
some limit bandwidth to their users even on this "free" (gov't subsidized) network
Penn State, also part of Internet2, recently imposed similar bandwidth caps (upload speeds of 56K) from dormatory internet connections in response to this problem.
I couldn't agree more on the issue of taxpayer financed networks being "wasted" on private P2P applications instead of being used for the research for which they were originally intended. If so much bandwidth can be given away to subsidize Kazaa, et al., then perhaps I2 could be opened up to private ISPs which could take over some of the costs that various governments are already paying.
Unfortunately, the bandwith caps are the only way the universities will get their research monies worth out of I2.
I have trouble getting enthused... (Score:2, Interesting)
Consider the state of the current Internet -- banner ads, pop-ups, pop-unders, email virii, web browser virii, web server virii, Flash web design, and 'content delivery' systems which are more annoying than their content is valuable.
If the Common Man gets access to the Internet2, then the Common Business will follow, trying to suck his pockets clean. Many of the Common Problems above will follow as side-effects.
Consider also that many areas still aren't wired with sufficient bandwidth to handle the garden-hose-like Internet1, much less the firehose-like Internet2. (Thank you, telephone hegemony.) Dialups will become all but worthless, as the only way to get decent speed for all those new Internet2 services is to move into increasingly crowded population centers. Or people will learn to do without, diminishing the value of the Internet2 that way.
Or to paraphrase Basil Fawlty, "This would be a great Internet if it weren't for all the users."
Pessimism? I prefer to think of it as a "crushing lack of faith in the general public and human nature."
Cool until someone gets hurt.... (Score:2)
Oh wait that was the movie TRON.....
Forget it.....
Why isn't the state doing things for everyone? (Score:2)
More free bandwidth for the people!
Did Al Gore invent the Internet2 also? (Score:2, Funny)