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Broadcom's Treaty In the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD War 146

Posted by Zonk
from the everyone-holding-hands dept.
eldavojohn writes "For a while there, I didn't know what to buy. Blu-Ray or HD-DVD? Which would be the leader? Only a fool would buy discs of the technology that would be the next Betamax. Fortunately, my dilemma has been solved by Broadcom. From the article: 'Consumer and communications chip supplier Broadcom Corp. Thurs. (Nov. 9) introduced what the company labeled the first single-chip solution to support both Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD standards.' I guess I'll just wait until I can get a player that will play them both."
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Broadcom's Treaty In the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD War

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  • Pr0n (Score:5, Interesting)

    by eldavojohn (898314) * <eldavojohn@nOsPam.gmail.com> on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:11PM (#16796158) Journal
    For those of you who claimed that the porn industry would decide this war (as was speculated in the beta max/VHS war), they've decided to choose both [pcpro.co.uk] technologies [hdtvuk.tv]. So that is no longer really the deciding factor. Are we going to see movies and studios side with the separate technology and the consumer simply use both?
    • Depends on if they can make the discs work only on proprietary hardware, sony would sure as hell try to.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by archen (447353)
      This is probably on the fast track to killing both if one or the other isn't decided. If you look at the costs at ramping up production of bluray or hd-dvd it's not worth it. Current facilities that produce DVD's took millions to tool. Unless the consumers actually put their weight behind one, these places are probably just going to keep pressing DVDs. Which in turn means less selection in titles, which reduces the demand for the format and keeps economies of scale from taking effect.
      • What's to stop them from shoving the format down your throat [pcworld.com]? In other words, as long as they piggyback the format on existing technology it will be hard to reject it. When only TVs made are HD and your TV dies what do you do? When only DVD players made are DVD/HD-DVD and yours dies what do you do?
        • Ya right! (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Dion (10186)
          What makes you think that there will not be thousands of factories in China pumping out DVD players (and DVD drives for computers) and SD TVs for years to come?
        • DVDs were introduced just under a decade ago, and they are only just starting to phase out VHS tapes. Actually, they did that really badly because, even though a VHS tape costs more to produce, they priced them much more cheaply than DVDs (because DVDs were better) making a lot of people migrate a lot more slowly that they would otherwise have done. By the time DVDs start to be phased out, my home Internet connection will be fast enough to stream HD content at higher quality than BluRay or HD-DVD, so I do
        • When only TVs made are HD and your TV dies what do you do? When only DVD players made are DVD/HD-DVD and yours dies what do you do?

          Nobody would make exclusively high-def technology that works exclusively with the new formats - especially when there's more money to be made by selling the cheaper DVD/480p stuff.

          The smell of dollars will effectively keep any one company from suppressing something consumers want. There will be a market for "regular" TVs for a long time to come - and that means money for

      • This is probably on the fast track to killing both if one or the other isn't decided. If you look at the costs at ramping up production of bluray or hd-dvd it's not worth it. Current facilities that produce DVD's took millions to tool. Unless the consumers actually put their weight behind one, these places are probably just going to keep pressing DVDs.

        What you are forgetting are the many presses that are going to be converted anyway to press PS3 games, which all come on Blu-Ray - since the factories will be
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Chris Burke (6130)
      Are we going to see movies and studios side with the separate technology and the consumer simply use both?

      I can't see how anyone who was around when the various writeable DVD formats were around, resulting in all drives supporting 'DVD +/- R/W', would see it working out any other way. A fractured market won't work. They want to convince people to upgrade to their HD DVD player -- "plays half of upcoming new releases!" isn't going to do it.

      The only kink is that I thought I'd heard the consortiums were tryi
  • Best answer... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Overzeetop (214511) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:11PM (#16796164) Journal
    Buy neither. Technology designed by lawyers should not be rewarded.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by nomadic (141991)
      So the actual technical standards and implementations were designed by lawyers? I knew I should have taken more circuit design classes in law school, sounds like I really missed out...
    • by homer_ca (144738)
      30GB of storage on a writable optical disc is pretty cool, but as far as buying DRM'ed movies on that media, yeah, just say no.
    • by Dion (10186)
      Well, I'll buy both, as soon as there is an Open source player that works on Linux.

    • by DittoBox (978894)
      That is quite possibly the truest thing I've heard said about DRM. Ever.
    • by Sancho (17056)
      I mostly concur. Right now, DVD is quite sufficient for me, and although it is still encumbered, that is apparently easy enough to break should I choose to do so.

      I don't like the remote-disabling features of some of the next-gen protocols (someone on Slashdot once noted that one of them could pack player-key disabling code on new discs in the event that a player's manufacturer leaked their key, or some such nonsense).
    • by evilviper (135110)
      Technology designed by lawyers should not be rewarded.

      EXACTLY! Boycott DVDs!

      (Because that worked so well the last time)

  • neither (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tehwebguy (860335) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:11PM (#16796170) Homepage
    i don't see any reason to buy into either one. i'm not planning on getting a new tv any time soon, and i don't need to pay even MORE per movie.
    • i don't see any reason to buy into either one.

      You must be the guy who walks around in public, and just shouts his own personal prefence at the top of his lungs.

      Now run along, and tell everyone how you don't like chocolate ice cream.

      i'm not planning on getting a new tv any time soon,

      I live on a dollar a day in South Africa... I don't have any vehicles at all. For some reason, I'm not interested in buying the new truck-bed liner.

      and i don't need to pay even MORE per movie.

      Thank you for correcting the hordes

  • Not happening. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:12PM (#16796180)
    Sony has so far refused to allow Blu-Ray licensing to any device that plays nice with both formats. They still have too much at stake to let anyone give the consumer a choice that may not be theirs.
    • by MarkGriz (520778)
      Sony has so far refused to allow Blu-Ray licensing to any device that plays nice with both formats. They still have too much at stake to let anyone give the consumer a choice that may not be theirs

      Maybe so, but by the time they pull their heads out of their asses (or consumers do it for them),
      at least the Broadcom solution is already there. Manufacturers that adopt the chipset will
      be way ahead of the game in releasing dual format capable machines.
      • Re:Not happening. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by HTH NE1 (675604) on Friday November 10, 2006 @02:03PM (#16796884)
        However, in the meantime, devices using the chip capable of handling both formats will be crippled so that only one format can be used per device. Just because it can support both formats doesn't mean it will in the same device. Drive makers can instead buy this chip in bulk rather that two other chips (one per standard) in bulk and not worry about having half their purchase become worthless because of consumer adoption of one format over another.

        That's the benefit.

        At least until someone learns how to flash a drive to enable both formats.
        • You're assuming that a higher volume purchase of this chip will be cheaper than a lesser volume of a single mode chips. I don't think that will be the case. I also can't agree that it avoids waste. Manufacturers buy just what they need, just in time to build devices, so if a manufacturers device stays on the shelves or in the warehouses, that's where the waste would occur - not in boxes of unused chips.

          Therefore, this is for dual mode devices only, until the cost matches the single mode chips.
        • by Inda (580031)
          At least until someone learns how to flash a drive to enable both formats.

          Un-crippling will be as simple as:

          1. Open the disk tray
          2. Type 1234 on the remote
          3. Close the disk tray

          Why wouldn't it be that easy?

    • Sony has so far refused to allow Blu-Ray licensing to any device that plays nice with both formats. They still have too much at stake to let anyone give the consumer a choice that may not be theirs.

      Since when has a lack of a liscence stopped companies in other countries under different laws from doing whatever they want to make a profit? Don't want a region-locked DVD player and can't hack your own? Buy a cheap import. Same goes for the next generation -- and in a lot of places it's 100% legal to do so.

      E
  • The visual benefits are marginal right now.

    I know, I know. 480p vs 720p vs 1080p...blah blah blah.

    Listen, how much is it REALLY worth to go drop $1000+ on an HD player that only reads certain discs? I've intentionally been waiting for dual/triple format players to hit the market before buying.

    Also, I've been quietly hoping inside someone would step up with a better format that isn't DRM encumbered. I'd likely suffocate holding my breath though. :P
    • "DRM encumbered"

      You misspelled "encrusted".
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Gnascher (645346)
        "DRM encumbered"

        You misspelled "encrusted".

        I think what you meant was "infected".
    • What on EARTH were they thinking creating 6 different "Standards"?!

      We now have 480i, 480p, 720i, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.

      Most hi-def displays look really good at exactly one of those 3 pairs. And then to add in 2 DRMed disc standards? Whose genius idea was this? I feel sorry for anyone non-technical trying to figure out which TV they want.

      (And while I'm ranting -- WHY oh WHY are widescreen LCD monitors 1680X1050 instead of 1080p?!)
      • Most hi-def displays look really good at exactly one of those 3 pairs.

        I have not found that to be the case.

        Most hi-def displays take in at least 1080i, and downsample. I have an 800x600 projector that does just that - 1080i sources look great. Of course 720p would look equally great given the resolution of the projector, but the point here is that even if displays do not support 1080i in terms of native pixels, even with moderate resolution a 1080i signal looks noticeably better than DVD.

        I had DishHD for
    • by derrickh (157646)
      You're wrong in so many ways.

      HDs visual benefit is far from marginal. Its a huge jump and the fact is, once you've seen HD video, anything less looks muddy. You really dont realize what you're missing out on.

      An HD-DVD player is not $1000. It's $500 or less. Thats half of what you balked at.

      Triple Format? Did you make that up? I'm not sure how you did your math but even most regular DVD players can play 3-4 different formats (DVD, VCD, CD, JPEG, etc etc). And there are only 2 HD formats (unless you're a craz
    • by evilviper (135110)

      The visual benefits are marginal right now.

      Right, a marginal 6X increase in resolution...

      At least TWICE as "marginal" as the 2-3X increase in resolution from VHS to DVD.

      go drop $1000+ on an HD player

      HD-DVD players are under $400. Blu-Ray is under $700.

      that only reads certain discs?

      As opposed to your car CD player, which reads DVDs, Data CD-ROMs, etc.

      You get a player for the format you want. Nothing new there. You don't get a VHS player when you want Blu-ray.

      Also, I've been quietly hoping inside someone w

  • I guess I'll just wait until I can get a player that will play them both."

    I'm just going to build a HTPC with both a BluRay and HD-DVD drive... (Granted, you can't buy HD-DVD drives and I can't find a fanless graphics card with the MPAA's blessing, HDCP.)

    • by thebdj (768618)
      This one [newegg.com] might be a bit hot for an HTPC. Hope that at least helps.
    • Good luck (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Dion (10186)
      Good luck getting any of the customizable goodness that makes HTPCs such a great win.

      Playback is going to be windows vista 64bit only, you can go screw yourself if you use anything else.

      Personally I'll skip both those coaster technologies until there is a reliable Linux player.

      If the Motion Picture Ass. of America reads this, then I will do what ever is easiest of the three options:
      1) Play the HD movies from the legal optical medium, on my Linux box, with an opensource player.
      2) Play the HD movies from hard
      • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

        by Ravatar (891374)
        We have considered your offer and present this counter-proposal:

        1) Buy Windows Vista or a standalone player anyway and spend the next 12 months complaining at every opportunity about how horrible both are.
        b) Get over the fact that we will NEVER allow our content to be played on an opensource player (at least one without without HDCP).
        4) Praise Linux/FOSS more frequently, your overzealousness isn't showing yet.
      • by GWBasic (900357)
        Playback is going to be windows vista 64bit only, you can go screw yourself if you use anything else.

        I plan on using 64-bit Vista, at least until HD-DVD, BluRay, and CableCard are cracked. If Myth has a better UI, then I might be tempted to try it out.

  • This is a bargain considering to purchase HD-DVD and Blueray drives individually would easily cost $1700 or more.
  • there are patents on the BlueRay tech that may prevent legal players from doing both formats - the chip may support both but not necessarily the players
    • by stewwy (687854)
      As long as you can press DVDopen : new format code:1234 to change region ***cought** format there won't be a problem :)

      Seriously this is what is needed after all most of the players will soon come from the same factories in China, and u can bet there will be only one main model available with just some software to change formats (and lots of different exterior cases to add 'value' of course)
  • At the moment, both formats seem too powerful to lose. They both have big backers, and a signficant studio input. As no clear leader has emerged, dual format would seem to be sensible for any early adopters. Why back only one, when you can back two? Price, of course, is going to be the deciding factor - as long as it is comparable to seperate player prices, it will do well. Another interesting point it raises is whether the two might be taken for different purposes - maybe HD-DVD being chosen as a cheaper
  • by ajayrockrock (110281) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:21PM (#16796336) Homepage
    Ricoh has developed a laser [google.com] that can read both formats too. I'm sure we'll see hybrid players sometime next year.

    --Ajay
    • by tenton (181778) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:35PM (#16796492)
      It's never been a major technical hurdle to create a player that can handle both formats. Being that they use the same wavelength laser (405nm), it was clear that there could be hybrid players, without major scientific breakthroughs. No, the issue is much more difficult to overcome; it's about licensing (i.e. money). So, at this point, it seems these developments only reduce the cost of the components (as the manufacturers just neeed to make one product; thus increasing the volume and leveraging economies of scale).

      Hybrid players next year may be a bit optimistic. I hope I'm wrong about that, though.
      • by Sancho (17056)
        But as happened with DVD, it's possible that a company will produce a player which is 'hackable' to re-enable reading/decoding of both discs content (similar to the early Apex and Sampo players, which could be soft-modded to change the region, be regionless, macrovisionless, etc). At worst, a sequence of keypresses could switch between HD-DVD and Bluray mode.

        Not that I'll be investing in either format, however....
        • by julesh (229690)
          But as happened with DVD, it's possible that a company will produce a player which is 'hackable' to re-enable reading/decoding of both discs content (similar to the early Apex and Sampo players, which could be soft-modded to change the region, be regionless, macrovisionless, etc). At worst, a sequence of keypresses could switch between HD-DVD and Bluray mode.

          As I understand it, any simple method of doing so would almost certainly be a violation of one or the other set of patent licenses.

          However, a player th
  • by dslauson (914147) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:24PM (#16796378) Journal
    The industry has transitioned from "Just look at all the great things you can do with technology!!!!" to "Oh, crap. People can do way too many things with technology."

    The new generation of hardware, software, and consumer electronics they're trying to cram down our throats offers only minimal improvements over the old stuff in order to try to get the consumer to give up all the things they used to be able to do.

    This is the reason that I'll never buy either of these products. I'm pretty happy with DVDs, thank you very much.
    • by evilviper (135110)
      offers only minimal improvements over the old stuff

      Exactly... Just a minimal 6X increase in resolution. A minimal scratch-proof disc. Minimal, far more advanced video codecs. Minimal advanced menu system.

      in order to try to get the consumer to give up all the things they used to be able to do.

      Right... They want us to give up our unencrypted, unprotected VHS tapes, in favor of DVDs.

  • Why bother? (Score:4, Informative)

    by bigwavejas (678602) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:25PM (#16796392) Journal
    Is there even a market for Blu or HD-DVD's? I would think the market is shifting to downloads.
    • by dijuremo (991139)
      Nah, The movie quality for downloads is too low on the current online movie stores. I also do not see anyone being able to download an HD movie (1080p resolution) in a decent amount of time with the crappy broadband speeds we currently have (at least in the US). Maybe it would work in those other countries where they have 10 to 100 Mbps connections see ( http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/09/203120 0 [slashdot.org] )
      • In the UK, it's hard to get less than 8Mb/s downstream these days, and the speed doubles roughly every year (has for the past four, anyway). HD-DVD gives about 30Mb/s, so in two years time you will get more bandwidth from a cheap consumer Internet connection than from the shiny bit of plastic. Within a year, you will be able to watch a movie if you leave it buffering for an hour or so before you start watching it. Sounds a lot more convenient than going to a store, or waiting a couple of days for Amazon
    • by ADRA (37398)
      There -is- a market for HD formats. They're technophiles that have more money than common sense. Really, if the new formats were identical in cost to DVDs with identical copyright restrictions and 100% compatible across the board, they'd become the natural migration path of the home entertainment system. Even if it costed a little more most would at least give it a second thought.

      I don't know about any of you, but I (who knows many many geeks) don't know a single person who is even concidering Hidef DVD's.
    • by vga_init (589198)
      That's what the suits want you to believe, but there is no way that people are going to trust a download service more than hard copies. Music is one thing, but movies are something different.
    • I don't really care a flying fuck. I don't care if the file I download is Blueray-rip or HD-DVDRip. Really it makes no difference what so ever :D

      And yes, it's legal to download movies in my country of residence :p
    • by evilviper (135110)

      Is there even a market for Blu or HD-DVD's? I would think the market is shifting to downloads.

      Right... Because EVERYONE can download 30GB video files in just a couple hours...

      And of course they don't mind that they can't then use their (expensive) internet connection for any OTHER purpose (which they purchased it for, in the first place).

      And once the videos are downloaded, 30GB of hard drive space is completely free, and everyone who wants to watch movies is enough of a computer expert to manage a RAID con

  • by synergy3000 (637810) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:32PM (#16796460)
    Well what about NEC? http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-10/11/conte nt_5189776.htm [xinhuanet.com]Chip. Been there done that last month. Any players with it yet? It won't be that easy.
  • This just levels the field. What happens when one of the formats wins, and in a year or two after that DVD makers try to save money by making DVD players that only play the winning format. The reason why DVD makers support VCD, CD, MP3, MPEG, AVI and all those other damn formats is because those formats live and customers ask for them, not because they have any sympathy for a customer who might be one of those few who has a betamax.
  • This was inevitable, and I'm surprised it even took this long. It's DVD+/-RW all over again...
    • by dkgasaway (468339)
      This was inevitable, and I'm surprised it even took this long. It's DVD+/-RW all over again...

      Except that DVD+/-RW was about consumer writable formats, which is a whole different area of the market. HD-DVD/BD-ROM is about the pre-pressed discs, the movies that people buy off the shelf to pop in their consumer players. This war is much more annoying and stupid.
    • Exactly. I just needed to buy some blank DVD's and CD's for my business. And to be honest, I didn't even look or care whether or not they were +/-R or whatever. The trend has always been for hardware to incoprate multiple standards. I don't see why this one would be any different. In a few years, when I need to buy some more DVD's (at the local drugstore, no less), I probably won't care whether they're dual layer DVD, Blue-Ray or HD. eh. I never understood why geeks got their panties in a bunch over
      • by Grishnakh (216268)
        I just needed to buy some blank DVD's and CD's for my business. And to be honest, I didn't even look or care whether or not they were +/-R or whatever. The trend has always been for hardware to incoprate multiple standards.

        And why didn't you care about whether those discs were +R or -R? Because your DVD writer probably supports both, so that it doesn't matter. However, rewind a few years to when these standards were brand-new, and try the same stunt. You probably would have found the DVD-Rs you bought wo
  • dual player (Score:5, Informative)

    by arazor (55656) on Friday November 10, 2006 @01:43PM (#16796586)
    There wont be any legal dual format players any time soon. The Sony Blu-Ray license prohibits HD DVD playback in the same machine.
    • Re:dual player (Score:5, Insightful)

      by swillden (191260) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Friday November 10, 2006 @02:22PM (#16797142) Homepage Journal

      There wont be any legal dual format players any time soon. The Sony Blu-Ray license prohibits HD DVD playback in the same machine.

      Just like the DVD-CCA's CSS key license prohibits region-free players :-)

    • Now, I'm aware that anti competition laws usually only apply to monopolies, which sony certainly is not. However, it seems like there should be *some* law against "you can't use any of our competitors products in conjunction with this" licenses.

      Furthermore, how is it that anyone needs a license? Isn't the format and technology well understood, or if not, couldn't it be reverse engineered? Are there patent constraints that I don't know about?
    • by mihalis (28146)

      There wont be any legal dual format players any time soon. The Sony Blu-Ray license prohibits HD DVD playback in the same machine.

      I'll take your word for it, but it did make me wonder what the definition of "machine" would be here. Say you can only put Blu-Ray, but not Blu-Ray & HDDVD in a single drive assembly, ok fine. Now, what about multiple drives? Can you put a BD-ROM and an HDDVD-ROM drive in a PC at the same time? Are Sony licensing the BD format per laser effectively? If economies of scale can

    • If Sony is so stupid as to put such a clause in their licensing for BluRay, then they
      deserve to have their format go the way of Betamax. The ONLY way that there will be
      a winner in this war is if consumers DON'T have to make a choice. Otherwise most of us
      will sit on the sidelines until the market decides which format is the way to go, and by
      THAT time BOTH will have failed.
  • AFAIK, both HD DVD and Blu-ray players currently on the market already use the same previous-generation Broadcom chip. And the Sigma Designs wonderchip has claimed to support both formats for a year or two. But a dual-format chip only means that you can use the chip to build either a Blu-ray player or an HD DVD player; licensing, physical differences, and firmware development cost will probably prevent dual-format players from happening.
  • Wireless drivers for Linux!

    Coming in 2020.
  • I'm not saying anything about buying other things early. I bought my 360 the day it came out and I have shelled out way too much to get imports from Japan on all kinds of stuff but with competing formats I wait a few years and see how things go. Does anyone remember the DVD fiasco although the hardware was the same people had all kinds of formats that not all DVD players could play. It was a little over a year after DVDs came out that I went ahead and got a player. I had no intention of buying some thin
  • by fury88 (905473)
    And you think the price of gas is expensive!
  • by Anonymous Coward
    If the chip is as good as my broadcom wireless, you'll be lucky to actually see either format (like I am sometimes lucky enough to see a AP in the same room).
  • "What do you mean I can't burn this (in all appearances identical to a DVD-R) DVD+R in this device?"
    "Why doesn't my DVD-R work in this machine?"
    "What will be the new standard?"
    "What kind should I buy?"
    "Which one's better?"

    Fast forward a couple of years, and suddenly an internal DVD-burner for all formats (and now even dual-layer) can be bought for $100 or less, which makes the difference pretty much moot from a consumer point of view. It was only the bleeding-edge adopters who purchased the technology earl
  • The Broadcom press release yesterday seemed to doom Pioneer/Sony because their player is based on Sigma and porting the millions of lines of code to Broadcom for dual format would take years. In reality, most of the work is in software. The SoC's are format agnostic. It would be easier to dual boot BP06 and a port of HD06 on the Sigma than port BP06 to Broadcom for the dual format support.

    Given the complexity of the specs, don't be suprised to see a partnership between Pioneer and Toshiba to share code b
  • This news is a bit old, and seems to be missing the rumor that Blu-Ray licensees are prohibited (by license) from making dual-players. It's a fact that EC is looking into Blu-Ray contract, and some are saying this is the reason.
  • by Stinky Fartface (852045) on Friday November 10, 2006 @03:22PM (#16798044) Homepage
    Even if all this tech came together and formed a great hybrid player, it still doesn't resolve the central issue of which format to support. I mean, what format are you going to buy your media in? It's great it supports both, you can always rent or Netflix either, but you still may find yourself several years down the road with a library of movies in an obsolete format. The player is only a small part of the problem. Additionally, it doesn't solve the issue for the retailer either. Space in stores is finite, and you can be sure that no retailer wants to reduce the variety of merchandise just so they can carry three formats of every title.
    • by sl3xd (111641) *
      Every disc is an obsolete format eventually. I'm sure Sony & Toshiba will say that DVD is an obsolete format.

      In '99, I recall more than a few tech magazine articles that predicted that DVD would replace CDs in *every* application where CD's were being used. This never happened.

      If you have a hybrid player, why do you care what disc it comes on? The codecs are virtually identical (the only real difference being the default codecs for audio and video). Both can display all but the longest movies on one
    • by Chris Burke (6130)
      Even if all this tech came together and formed a great hybrid player, it still doesn't resolve the central issue of which format to support.

      Actually, this is the only solution to the problem that helps the consumer, because the answer to "which format to support" is "both" and then the consumer doesn't have to care what format they use, just like I don't particularly care which of four recordable DVD formats I use; they all work.

  • It's November, the start of the Christmas Buying Season

    HD-DVD: $399
    Blu-Ray: $999

    Unless Sony cuts the price in half by Black Friday, it's game over for Blu-Ray
  • .... when DVD Jon has the cracks ready please.

    If I can't play on my Linux boxes I am not interested.

Crazee Edeee, his prices are INSANE!!!

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