NH Man Arrested for Videotaping Police 1232
macinrack writes to mention a story about a New Hampshire man who was arrested for videotaping police on his doorstep, using a fairly standard security camera system. He was officially charged with 'two felony counts of violating state eavesdropping and wiretap law by using an electronic device.' From the article: "The security cameras record sound and audio directly to a videocassette recorder inside the house, and the Gannons posted warnings about the system, Janet Gannon said. On Tuesday night, Michael Gannon brought a videocassette to the police department, and asked to speak with someone in 'public relations,' his wife said and police reported. Gannon wanted to lodge a complaint against Karlis, who had come to the family's house while investigating their sons, Janet Gannon said. She said Karlis showed up late at night, was rude, and refused to leave when they asked him."
Ugh! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:4, Interesting)
Looks like he had already done that. This kind of stuff is ridiculous, I can't believe Americans are putting up with this kind of shit from the people we pay to protect our cities. More and more rights being taken away. My only question is how having security cameras on your own private property is against wiretapping laws? I bet this family is going to make a killing after they get done with that PD.
Re:That sad part is (Score:1, Interesting)
Those are called DA's. And damn skippy it's ripe for abuse.
Re:Ugh! (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Will the ACLU take this case? (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, when on public property, there is no right to privacy (The right to privacy is also not explicitly stated in the constitution or any of the amendments as many people believe. It is, according to case law, implied however.) The dash cams are recording you while you and the officer are both on public property (the roads).
Note, I do think that privacy should be explicitly protected and very probably in the constitution.
If you record your own property, you do not need to notify anyone that you are recording (think video surveilance of stores.)
IANAL, however I have had the benefit of 20+ years of hanging around police officers at home. The exact limits of where you do and do not have the right to privacy and what forms of surveilance are legal will probably vary somewhat by state. YMMV
Re:Ugh! (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot of us over at the forums on NHFree [nhfree.com] are weighing options as to how best to respond.\
We're known for standing up against the NH police when they step out of line!5 4843817240 [google.com]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-30178811
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Slow news day (Score:3, Interesting)
Problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Clarification (Score:3, Interesting)
The owner probably should have had a sign posted, to avoid all of this legal hassle. Simply stating to the officer that he or she is being videotaped makes for a shaky "who are you going to believe" argument. A key issue that I don't see listed is whether the owner turned on the system in response to the officer knocking at the door. If the individual was not running a continuous surveillance loop, it could be argued that the person merely installed the camera system to target certain individuals or the police.
Irregardless of the legal feasiblity of the charge, the charge sounds like a load of B.S. The owner may be a jerk, have two sons who are frequently at odds with the law, and may not feel inclined to rat on his own children whenever the police come around, but that doesn't give the police the right to make bogus charges and penalize the individual however they see fit. Even dicks have certain rights guaranteed and should be able to live without being harassed by police.
Re:Ugh! (Score:3, Interesting)
Are police the only ones allowed to enforce the law?
Jury duty (Score:5, Interesting)
Now at last we can turn the arguement around: If you're not doing anything wrong, why worry about the cameras? Police routinely tape large demonstrations and outdoor events, how is this any different? There's no expectation of privacy in public place, that's why they had to use wiretap laws. It wasn't the video, it was the audio. I'm guessing N.H. is a two-party state, where both parties have to consent to monitoring.
Either way this was a hugely bad move for the police department. Now it looks like they charged the guy in retaliation and are trying to cover up misdeeds by their own personnel. The defense will want to play the tape for the jury and they'll get to see the officer's unfiltered conduct. Not his well-dressed, well-mannered courtroom testimony. He might not have had a damage award case if they hadn't arrested him, but they might now if the jury is convinced the police acted out of malice. Dumb and dumber.
Smartest move the prosecutor could make would be to throw out the case, but none of those involved strike me as particularly gifted in the PR department.
So much for the Supreme Court counting on improved training to keep police conduct in check.
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ugh! (Score:3, Interesting)
If you record them... (Score:2, Interesting)
(posting anonymously for this one)
It worked for me when I tried to get a bunch of Boston & Mass. State Police officers to stop drinking and tossing their empties on our street. After complaining to them directly and failing to have an effect, I went out with my camera the next night and positioned myself prominently. One confronted me and showed me his badge, which I deliberately requested to look at in detail; and when I recited exactly what I'd watched them do over the past several minutes, I sensed him noticing my camera. Second thoughts, maybe? He left, I never made a report to his superiors, and the problem fixed itself.
P.S. I subsequently have had wonderful experiences (unrelated to any of this) with Boston Police officers patrolling our neighborhood. In one case I spent a day in court as a potential witness with a couple of officers who had helped me apprehend a break-and-enter theif, only to have the a$$wipe judge decline to hear me or the cops and set the sentence to time served. So this guy with a 20-year, 14 page criminal record is back on the street ready to be picked up again. Anyway, just wanted to be clear I support these guys in general, and lament that the liberal, spineless Boston judicial system doesn't make their jobs any easier.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
Another example is you cant get a Federal CWP if you have ever been charged with a felony. Doesn't matter what it was, or if you were aquited.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ugh! (Score:3, Interesting)
Make no mistake: the Free State Project [freestateproject.org] is not about moving someplace already free; it's about moving the most active pro-Freedom people to a place that can be freed, with a hell of a lot of hard work. See the 101 reasons NH should be the Free State [lpnh.org] info that the NH Libertarian Party put together before the vote was taken on which would be the designated Free State.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
I've also had many letters of thanks from citizens. I'm not trying to start a flame ware, just putting down the facts. I do computer forensics, homicide reconstruction, and fatal accidents now.
Sherm
(I was also put on
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:3, Interesting)
If the camera is in plain view, anywhere, it is not "covert". If there are signs posted, it is not "covert".
Recall, this is an issue with the so-called "nanny-cams", several cases of which are still winding through the courts; the defense being that it is within the walls of the home negates the issue of being "covert", as one can do anything within reason within one's own home.
It does not, however, trump the consent to be recorded issue, though that's usually done by the court "in the interest and furtherance of justice".
This does, however, raise an interesting possibility...
Taken as presented, it is possible that by stating "I do not consent to being recorded" when pulled over by a highway patrol officer, any attempt to use that recording for conviction may be voidable since it negates Fifth Amendment rights to remain silent (and assuming that you don't blather on thinking that your words automagically protect your Fifth Amendment rights). Pleading the Fifth, then continuing to talk, is seen as waiving the Fifth by the courts.
By extension, this might apply to the use of radar; while courts recognize "plain view" as acceptable, the fact that an officer has to use a sophisticated device to record your actions without your consent (which is not granted by the issuance and acceptance of a driver's license, by the way), negates the "plain view" applicability here. You can grow marijuana in your back yard, and the police may suspect, but many a potential conviction has been tossed out because an officer placed a brick or box down and used it to stand on to look over the fence. "Plain view" means "plain view", not "plain view if you use something to get past what's blocking your ability to see".
Mr. Gannon may have an interesting precedent looming in any pending court action on his arrest.
wtf (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe Mr Gannon should have said "The Camera is there to keep America safe from "terra-ists." - that seems to be the "get out of constitutional protections free card" du-jour...
Maybe Mr Gannon didn't know that America is fast becoming a fascist kleptocracy...
This just seems ridiculous, the guy was on his own property - I would think he'd have a better chance of pressing trespassing charges against the "officer" then some corrupt police department that is being terribly abusive with their autority would have of charging him with these felonies.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on all cops or law enforcement officers - there are some who do a great job and respect the law and constitution, but this kind of thing is becoming all to common.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:4, Interesting)
It's easy to nay-say on the sidelines. It's just so much bullshitting unless you're willing to at least give it a shot.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
Only partial sympathy (Score:3, Interesting)
The article has some delicious irony in it.
"She said they installed the [camera] system in response to crime in the neighborhood, and at their house."
"Karlis was investigating the Gannons' 15-year-old son in connection with a June 21 mugging outside Margaritas restaurant, for which two other teens already have been charged, according to police reports. The boy also is charged with possessing a handgun stolen three years ago in Vermont, and resisting detention, police said."
Sound like they just need to videotape their kid.
Canada is not as free as you think either (Score:1, Interesting)
They even went as far as to delete the audio recording that I had set on recording of them and they deleted the movie I made of them tail-gating each other and not-signalling lane changes.
I then asked to get all of the officers names and badge numbers and the supervisor said NO!!! I said I demand the information as I am entitled to it, but they took off. The supervisor gave me only 2 of the 3 officers names even after that!
I am ready to post this on my website tonight. This happened to me in Brampton, Ontario ---by the Pearson International Airport.
Canada isn't as free as you think. What am I do? How can I get the media to take up my story?
Just check out how corrupt the Peel Police are:
- " Misconduct Allegations
Between 2005 and 2006, Peel Regional Police have been sued numerous times for police brutality and misconduct. As well as having some of their officers face serious criminal and Police Services Act of Ontario charges.
* $9.5 million lawsuit filed by a black police officer, Const. Duane Simon, an 18-year veteran of the Toronto Police Service, alleging false imprisonment, abuse of public office, injurious falsehoods, negligent investigation and breach of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. [1]
* $3.6 million lawsuit alleging seven off-duty officers attacked seven students from Notre Dame Catholic Secondary School, and that the police are covering up the identities of the officers involved in order to thwart possible criminal prosecutions. [2]
* $14.6 million lawsuit filed by former Toronto Argonaut football player Orlando Bowen, who says he was assaulted and falsely arrested by a group of negligent and racist officers at a Mississauga night club. [3]
* Const. Sheldon Cook, 38, was arrested by RCMP officers at his residence, where it's alleged 15 kilograms of cocaine were found hidden in a storage area of his home. Cook is also named in a lawsuit by Orlando Bowen. [4] [5]
* Const. Roger Yeo, 36, of Mississauga, is alleged to have watched and followed several young girls. Yeo was suspended with pay and was charged under the Police Services Act for discreditable conduct, but has not been criminally charged. [6]
Accusations of police abuses involving racism have plagued this police department since the late-80s. When a black teenager from Jamacia, 17-year old Michael Wade Lawson, was shot to death by two Peel Regional Constables on December 8th, 1988. [7] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Regional_Police [wikipedia.org]
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Interesting)
If right-wing Libertarianism is so freakin' great, why is it that Liberal high-tax Massachusetts is where you all have to go to get a job?
Re:sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
You need to remember, that cops deal with assholes all day long - and they are conditioned to think that if they think you are guilty - then by god - you ARE guilty - and by default - an asshole.
So, even if you are EXTREMELY polite and VERY accommodating, they can STILL treat you liek shit. One time I was attacked by an insane ex girlfriend of mine in my own home, after she had trashed my bedroom, and caused about $1000 of damage in my bathroom. I had to eject her from the house, using the minimum force required.
I was bleeding from her scratches to my face when I got her out of the house, and I was shaking like a leaf. I actually rang the police straight away and said that I had been attacked in my own home, and that I had to eject her. Oh, she tried to kick her way through my plate glass window next to my door too, to get back inside. I thought she was gonna sever her foot if she broke the glass.
Anyway - she ended up calling the cops - and they rang me back telling me it wasn't over. They arrived and came in, and the fuckers are reading me my rights in my own home, when I'm the one dripping blood!
I made a full statement the following day - and then the prosecuting sargeant really went to town on me - reckoning he was gonna charge me with assault (I weighed twice what she did) and that I was gonna go to prison but worst of all - that I was a bad man. (Which I am not.) This because - in HIS experience, if there's an altercation - then it's always the asshole guy attacking the tiny, defenceless girl.
I went to see my lawyer straight away - and due to me having two witnesses in the house at the time - who didn't see a lot but heard it all - she said that she'd rip the poilice a new one if they even THOUGHT about arresting me.
I confidently returned to the police station. Took some more verbal abuse from the sargeant before telling him my lawyer would rip him a new one, and that I was leaving. He told me he wanted me to hand in my 2 rifles, and my gun license. I told him that I would do no such thing - and that he should find some criminals to harrass.
That was the end of that. But a very harrowing time.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
ummm, 20% is not a "only" it's gotta be a embarrsing number to ya? (but about true in my best guess) , granted it isn't 99% (in the places I have experience.)
I have probably encounted 20 on duty cops, for a net total of 16 nice cops for 5 minutes each. one complete ass cop, with no clue of the law for a hour. and 3 jerks with attitudes for 15 minutes each. thats 80 minutes of positive re-enforcement, and 105 of negative. (oh take 15 minutes of that * 10 because I was soo mad that I was on the verge of hunting that bastard down after duty, luckily I cooled. Was after he mistook me for a ex-felon he had a run in with the same name.)
I do wish most jurors had the experience I had, because you would know that cops would tend to give tickets/arrests only to people they think are guilty. So when they get into court, they say whatever it takes to get the person convicted, because they already "know" their guilty. Before my experience it was a "why would the cop care he's not involved" So (at least some lie first to overcome the posibility that the defendent would also by dishonest later.)
was any ill effect handed to those 5? Seams judges don't care/don't respond to a dishonest officer. Actually had the judge tell me he knew (and could have easily proven) the cop was lyeing on my way out of the court, after finding me guilty of 1 of 4 (driving related) charges. Thinking it would make me feel better.
probably if the system punished the bad officers, instead of rewarding just on stuff like convictions... Perhaps the officers wouldn't go bad so often, or at least would get pushed out more.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, 1mph over the limit? That's within normal variance. Hell, many precincts will reprimand officers for writing anyone up for less than 5mph or 7mph over. Check the laws in your area, you may be able to file a complaint. They HAVE to provide some lenience for coasting down (e.g., they CANNOT write you up 10 feet after the speed drop, it's unreasonable and entrapment) and they HAVE to provide some lenience for terrain (e.g., on a long downgrade, don't be an asshole and write someone up for 1mph over, or if a steep grade, even 10mph might be reasonable given the alternative - brake fade rendering brakes useless).
That's like an officer pulling someone over for proceeding through a red light when the driver was previously waiting PAST THE WHITE LINE for an opportunity to proceed. The driver is OBLIGATED to proceed through the red light to clear the crosswalk and intersection, and yet I've seen people pulled over for precisely that. Following the law can get you fucked just as badly as ignoring it. Also, some officers like to pull people over for passing in passing zones (this happened to me) - why? Because the rookie "doesn't think passing zones should be legal." -- I begged that prick to write me up and then follow me to the station when I go talk with his supervisor (incidentally I've seen him around town since then and he's actually been pretty nice - I think he's gotten over his power trip of being an officer).
On the other hand, some officers aren't all that bad and will give verbal warning for extremely excessive speeds. Just like everyone else there are good officers and then there are assholes. Unfortunately, the parent happened to run into one of the assholes - probably a rookie.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:2, Interesting)
officer jones doesn't care so much about officer smith as much as they both do about chief brody. and chief brody catches hell from the mayor when the municipality gets hit with repeated penalties.
the goal of enforcement is to keep at bay a culture of corruption and mutual cya-ism in the police force. this is a matter of (unwritten) department policy, not individual behavior. if the culture isn't changed, you can be sure that incoming police officers will adapt to the culture rather than worry about the one-in-a-thousand chance that they'll get nailed by some guy with a video camera.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:1, Interesting)
Please don't call me a jackass. I did not vote. I can not vote since I am not (yet) a citizen. So, don't blame me for the mess. (I'dve voted Libertarian if I could).
I came to the U.S. on a valid work visa, have received a labor certification (which basically says I did not take an American's job), and am awaiting a green card. I hope to become a citizen and would quite happily renounce my current citizenship (I believe that one does have to choose where one's loyalties lie).
I came here because I believe in the supreme law as layed out in the U.S. Constitution and the principles behind the Declaration of Independence.
My son was born an American, and might some day have to die for that Constitution and those principles.
Was I so mistaken in believing that faith and trust in principle could not drive good people to overcome corrupt governments? Do none remain that long for liberty more than life iteslf? Is despair the new opiate of the masses? Is cowardice now noble? Is America lost?
Tell me it isn't so!
So long as one voice cries for freedom, so long as one heart yearns for justice, there must be others. So long as such yearning smolders, there must still be hope in the time of hopelessness, that the flame of liberty can be reignited.
I just didn't think the task would fall to a foreigner, but then again, it always did.
questions for you (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with you that it's only a small minority that causes the trouble. The cops I know are fine; but I used to live next door to a cocaine club and it was very clear then that the cops in the area were on the take. I'd sometimes complain to them after they were called to break up some fight at 6 in the morning and they'd say, "Hey, the place has a license!" and I'd say, "But it's 6 in the morning! By law they should have closed two hours ago! And they literally have piles of cocaine on the bar, go look!"
And they couldn't even look me in the eyes.
I've been here in New York City 20 years and I have to say that I've grown more and more frightened of the police. My friends are mainly older and two of them have told me flat out that they wouldn't let their kids enter the police force now. After the mass illegal arrests at the RNC where dozens of cops were proven by video to have perjured themselves repeatedly -- yet not one of them was even reprimanded -- I don't know a single politically active person who doesn't see a cop as a potential enemy now.
Oops, I started this with the intention of backing you up -- but it didn't work out.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now had they disclosed the fact that the guy worked in the prosecutors office I could have had it sent to another county where more than most likely the charges would have been dismissed. They hid this fact until I entered my plea agreement, and he was not listed as working for the prosecutors office till after it was all over. They will do anything they can to further their carrers and they dont care if it tank yours. Note if I was convicted of a felony, no professional engineering licence, no security clearance, nothing pertaining to engineering, and 2 years upstate minimum. Everything I would have worked for would have been wasted. Most likely I would have won, however even if you're innocent, there's still a chance of being found guilty. As I'm 22, with where this happend, I'd have a high chance of having a bunch of old ladies on my jury, please note the jury of your peers thing is BS, its usually homemakers and the elderly. If they think all the kids are just little SOBs that drive too fast, it doesn't matter that I was doing the speed limit and that the truck sped up or any other factors. Charges alone cause serious grief, and the worst thing about it is they can do completely bogus charges.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
Someone who had been stalking a Microsoft contractor drove onto the corporate campus waving his gun out the window. The Redmond SWAT team responded. They got him stopped, set up a perimeter, and started the wait-him-out routine. This routine includes SWAT officers getting refreshment breaks while the stalker doesn't.
I heard about this from a former cafeteria employee who was on the scene. The Redmond police loaded up their trays with odds and ends and beverages and went to the cashier. Then they discovered Microsoft's free beverage policy.
The police refused to accept 50-cent cans of soda for free. This escalated to a manager who finally made up a price for the free sodas so the police could live up to their department policy of not accepting gifts.
"Ask, and ye shall receive": you hire the mayor and the mayor hires the police chief. Make the same demands the citizens of Redmond did, and you can get the same results.
Re:Ugh! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Ugh! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:sigh (Score:1, Interesting)
Oh, by the way, I am white.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ugh! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Problem (Score:3, Interesting)
officer: Where do you live? Where do you live? You have to tell me where you live, what your name is, or anything like that.
tester: For a complaint? I mean, like, if I have --
officer: Are you on medications?
tester: Why would you ask me something like that?
officer: Because you're not answering any of my questions.
tester: Am I on medications?
officer: I asked you. It's a free country. I can ask you that.
tester: Okay, you're right.
officer: So you're not going to tell me who you are, you're not going to tell me what the problem is.You're not going to identify yourself.
tester: All I asked you was, like, how do I contact --
officer: You said you have a complaint. You say my officers are acting in an inappropriate manner.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
Every cop is not "dirty". You just don't know shit about cops. It's understandable really. Not many people really do know what they're talking about when they decide to start venting on law enforcement. People all want the world to work the way it's supposed to but nobody wants to be inconvenienced by the law themselves. Let me drive faster than the speed limit, don't give me any shit about the smell of beer on my breath, and get out of my yard because it's my right to kick my old lady's ass if she's out of line.
If you think cops are all total pricks you should see some of the total pricks they have to deal with.
Actual strike that comment. It wouldn't do you any good. You probably are one.
Re:sigh (Score:1, Interesting)
My dad was a trial lawyer for a while a few decades back (including criminal cases--he actually ran for public prosecutor, but lost), and apparently cops often carry a "throwdown," a gun with the serial filed off, for this exact purpose.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:1, Interesting)
This plea is only recognised in the U.S. In other common law countries, a criminal defendant is requested to plead either "Guilty" or "Not Guilty". If a person fails to speak or uses different words, "Not Guilty" will be placed on the file as the presumptive plea. No formal plea is required in civil matters where paper pleadings are used.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
Wise words. Here's the proof:
The Milgram Experiement [wikipedia.org], which proves that most people are capable of torturing and killing given the right conditions.
Stanford prison experiment [wikipedia.org] where randomly choosen guards/prisoners degraded into some of the worst abuses of authority in any experiement. It had to be stopped early it got so bad.
Every Cop Is Dirty (Score:1, Interesting)
If my mom could do this, anyone can and it's a damn near miracle if any cop who's been working longer than a few years hasn't done at least something as bad as she done. And I'm sure my father has done worse because he doesn't even like to talk about it but I've heard bits and pieces that sound bad. A cop once told me about another cop that the reason he is so cheerful and such a likeable guy at home (where I would see him), is because at work he would beat the shit out of suspects. Neither of them are what I hear many people say about cops - people who bullied others in high school. Though I do expect a higher percentage than average of cops are people who were the bully types, or at least those who just stood there.
But that isn't the whole story. In my opinion, people can't be expected to be that "honorable", or whatever you want to call it. I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same thing. I don't think I would have done what she did.. but I can think of other examples where I might have - if it were a family member... if it were maybe not as serious. I think the problem is that they need more checks on the power that police wield and really drill them about what abuse of power means - even letting a fellow cop slide on a ticket, or using a special police permits while off duty to park where regular people can't adds to the injustice everyone has to live with. And maybe it means cops get other privs or benefits to make these other minor infractions seem less worth it. Maybe they should have their names published in a record of people who have betrayed the public trust or something equal to as much praise as a cop gets when being 'heroic'.
Most cops aren't bad people. They're just people who are given too much power, and in any sufficiently large enough town/city, too much anonymity. It's also a problem of living in large communities.