Fix Your Crashing X-Box 360 With String 686
mkraft writes "A gamer fed up with his new Xbox 360 crashing every 20 minutes has fixed the problem by raising the power supply off the ground with some string. Goldeneyemaster over at the GameSpot forums indicates that the main reason for his Xbox 360 freezing up is the power supply overheating. The solution is to lift the power supply off the floor and allow the air to circulate better around it."
Rubber feet (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, and keep it out of the carpet..
In summer? (Score:5, Insightful)
It makes me wonder... (Score:3, Insightful)
Jerry
http://www.cyvin.org/ [cyvin.org]
What a fucking disaster (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:It makes me wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)
All MS jokes aside (Score:3, Insightful)
And 'fixing it with string'? Sounds more like 'fixing it by allowing it to get some AIR'...
If You Think It Is A Problem Now... (Score:3, Insightful)
I can see cooling being a big issue for the CPU and graphics chips which have to dissipate quite a bit no matter what, but the power supply? A well designed switching supply should have very low losses and run cool.
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft seems to have lost control... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's nice that Gates gave millions of dollars to stop malaria, but that should not be allowed to be effective in public relations. The malaria money is a very small percentage of the losses due to the many Microsoft viruses and trojans and worms. The many, many vulnerabilities in Microsoft products make money for the company because many users with no technical ability simply buy another computer.
Why are we so tolerate this behavior? (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't buy XBOX 360, that for sure.
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:3, Insightful)
well afaik a power supply has to deliver constant voltage as well as clean power. I'm guessing your run of the mill "cheap" power supply wouldn't be able to deliver and the console would crash all the time. If you had access to a good clean power supply, then I don't see any harm, but you might end up paying quite a few bucks. And if I just spent 400$ on a console, I would be really upset if I had to also buy a 100-200$ power supply.
Re:What a fucking disaster (Score:4, Insightful)
I know you're a troll and you don't really deserve an answer, but...
Actually it's not Microsoft users who love getting raped, it's early adopters. And a damn good thing too: without early adopters, we patient and reasonable consumers wouldn't get good products with all the design kinks worked out.
Re:In summer? (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem seems more to do with air flow though. People putting the supply on a shag carpet or no doubt going to have more heat problems than people who place the supply on it's side up on a table. The supply probably should have used some extra heatsinks though.
Still I am curious as to the ratio of people having problems in warmer clients to those in colder climates.
Re:Rubber feet (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why are we so tolerate this behavior? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Rubber feet (Score:1, Insightful)
In test, they'd have it on a bench, or a desk. Joe Consumer takes it home, and sticks it on (rather, in) his half-inch thick shag pile carpet and
Re:What a fucking disaster (Score:4, Insightful)
You are probably right... but if everyone was a 'patient, reasonable consumer' then maybe MS would have to fix their shit before they, you know, ship it? Otherwise no one would buy it. Just a thought.
Re:Leave it to Microsoft. (Score:2, Insightful)
They did, but the test site burned down before they completed the tests.
MS is based in the Pacific Northwest, it's too cold there most of the year for something like the power brick overheating to be a problem. Even if they did have a problem it would be rare - so it would probably be chalked up to a fluke in the particular brick and not a design flaw.
Re:Leave it to Microsoft. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would they?
Why should they incur that expense?
They have beta-tes^H^H customers out there that willingly PAY THEM $400+ to do it for them. Literally fighting each other at stores for the oppurtunity.
Re:Rubber feet (Score:1, Insightful)
Buying hardware from a software monopoly (Score:3, Insightful)
This kind of thing, and hell, this precise situation, would never happen in a company that is run by engineers. Real engineers, not software engineers or sanitation engineers. People who have been rigorous trained in the behavior of physical materials when acted upon by systematic application of an energy source. People in hardware companies don't sell stuff that gets fixed right out of the box by hanging the power supply by a piece of string. There are lots of other people with experience and scars from past mistakes that ensure that this doesn't happen. And if by some circumstance it does occur, the engineers in other companies don't forget about it and managers don't rehire the engineers who were responsible at that same level. Like Deng Shao Ping, they must first spend some time on the pig farm to contemplate the consequences of their mistakes.
But not designers in a software company. Real world hardware doesn't exist, in theory. If you put 100 volts across a eighth-watt 10-ohm resistor, you get 10 amps. My super calculator says so. Actually what you get is a bad smell. Couple this with the atmosphere of upwardly-mobile incompetence found in any large corporation. Lock it in place by the office politics of having "yes men and women" generally promoted over innovative corporate in-house entrepreneurs and you have a situation where your customers are hanging your new state-of-the-art showcase product by a piece of string in order to get it to work.
All this is worse in a monopoly corporation, because they have already reached the maximum possible business goal through past operations. Anything new and innovative can't improve the situation. Therefore managers have nothing to gain by encouraging and rewarding competence and innovation. Add the generalized hubris of 5000 pampered 30-year-old grade-point-angels who have spent their entire lives becoming the best in class at passing tests and pleasing the teacher, drop in a pinch of clinical psychotic behavior in the upper levels of management, and you've created the perfect Frankenstein organization.
Microsoft.
Re:Leave it to Microsoft. (Score:5, Insightful)
MS has built hardware before (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft has produced sophisticated hardware before, for example Z80 coprocessor cards for Apple IIs. This let Apple II users run CP/M back in the day.
OK that was a while ago, more recently we have keyboard, mice, joysticks. Not quite sophisticated, even when you toss in force feeback
The above may not qualify as sophisticated by it does show that they are also a hardware company to some degree.
And, uh, you are aware that the XBox360 is a followup to something called the XBox? I think that little piece of hardware may fall in to the "sophisticated" category.
Irrelevant. Apple enjoys an equally monopolistic position over *it's* customers and Apple is able to design some very nice hardware.
This kind of thing, and hell, this precise situation, would never happen in a company that is run by engineers.
Like a hardware company named Apple, a company that has been producing sophisticated hardware for nearly 30 years? Oh yeah, they've never shipped with bad power supplies, bad batteries that could catch on fire,
If use of Apple offends you we could use HP (pre-Compaq), Intel, or a host of other companies to prove the same point.
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:2, Insightful)
Prevent the Console from Overheating
Do not block any ventilation openings on the console or power supply. Do not place the console or power supply on a bed, sofa, or other soft surface that may block ventilation openings. Do not place the console or power supply in a confined space, such as a bookcase, rack, or stereo cabinet, unless the space is well ventilated.
Do not place the console or power supply near any heat sources, such as radiators, heat registers, stoves, or amplifiers.
Of course, consumers not reading the manual, what else is new? heh.
Re:Chances are they bought the supplies in.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Would you really want all that heat generated inside the game box? Having an external, passive power supply is practically a requirement for building a silent pc (and some consumer devices). If the power supply is inside the box, a fan is often necessary to keep your entire box from dying a heat death.
By keeping the power supply outside of the box, it is much simpler to engineer the rest of the device.
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, I realize that it's a trade-off of cost vs usability, but game consoles generally live in the little empty space in the entertainment center cabinet next to the TV screen, so they must be designed to tolerate high temperatures without failure.
I suppose Microsoft will get to do an embarassing product recall or at least issue an embarassing announcement that the product requires its ugly power supply box to be visible to work properly.
Re:Rubber feet (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:5, Insightful)
Do not place the console or power supply near any heat sources, such as radiators, heat registers, stoves, or amplifiers.[/blockquote]
So where do I put it? Not everyone has a concrete pad with air conditioning running over it to play their games. This is an applicance like your stereo, like your tv, like most of the stuff people stuff into an entertainment center. It's insane that you have to have so much ventilation for a game system like that.
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because that's how things were doesn't mean that's how things will continue to be, and consumers need to recognize that and start reading their product literature, both before and after a purchase.
Will you expect to fill a hydrogen car with unleaded fuel just because that's how things have always been with cars? No? Why not? Because you're aware of how the technology works and is supposed to work, right?
So why then would anyone expect to treat a $400+ multimedia entertainment system (as Microsoft touts it; more than simply "a game console") like their $89 VCR? It's an all new entertainment platform and all new technology, I think reading the manual and adhering to its recommendations might be in order. But then again, I'm not a dumb consumer; I do my product research before-hand and if I discover major caveats (like we have here) then I don't buy.
I agree that the design is terrible for those that expect things to stay the way they've always been, but from the standpoint of moving forward with technology, having new restrictions and requirements is not unreasonable at all, especially if those restrictions and requirements are clearly outlined in the product literature.
I, for one, do not expect new technology to be just like old technology in terms of the way we use (and abuse) it. I expect it to come with new restrictions and requirements in addition to its new features and enhancements.
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:3, Insightful)
same solution as my old C= 64 (Score:2, Insightful)
I bet MS did not test the power supply sitting on a carpet. And, I would bet that the failing units are either sitting on a carpet, or sitting somewhere else where they collect a lot of heat.
Now that we know the crash is a heat problem, this one is an easy "fix" until MS reworks the power supply.
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:5, Insightful)
My most recent 20" box fan came with a manual. It says to never ever EVER put the fan in a window. The picture on the box shows it in a window. I have it in a window. It works fine there.
I have a humidifier, with a great big scary orange sticker on the inside of the lid, that actually says (paraphrased) "WARNING: If this unit becomes wet, unplug it, let it dry fully, and have it inspected by an authorized service technician before attempting to use it again". And what purpose does this lid, with so dire a warning, serve? You lift this particular lid to... FILL THE THING WITH WATER!
Virtually the entire warning section in most manuals exists solely for the purpose of helping the manufacturer fight off product liability suits. In the case of the box fan, some moron probably tried to use one in a window in the rain, and got zapped or burned his house down. That doesn't mean that I can't put a fan in the window on a nice sunny day, it just means if I do something stupid Lesko can say "see, we told you so!". For the humidifier, I don't quite know what they had in mind, but I have 100% confidence it involves covering their butts in some way.
So when the XBox360 says not to use it on a bed or sofa, which I expect accounts for where 99% of people would use it... Even those who read the warnings will tend to ignore it as just another sad attempt to protect Microsoft from morons.
Better solution without materials? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:5, Insightful)
Small kids play these game systems, everyone knows that. They should be built tough. I'm guessing the Xbox 360 is probably built tough, but it only takes a single weak part to ruin all of the effort.
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:4, Insightful)
Where I work we keep the data center at 20C, if 1 unit fails the temp usually rises to about 25C, if 2 fail (it's happened once during a hot summer) the temp rises VERY quickly. I've seen the average temp at 65C, I'd hate to guess what some of the temps were inside the servers who didn't have the thermal protection enabled in bios.
I've seen mobo's that have been lightly burnt / melted around the CPU socket.
Re:MS has built hardware before (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft Wireless Networking (Score:3, Insightful)
Cases in point: The Pipeline P50 and P75 would lock up after running for a while in NAT mode, so would early versions of the LinkSys BEFSR41, as well as the Efficient Networks SpeedStream 5660 and later model NetGears (after the switch from Zynos.) Oh, and my beloved SMC Barricade 7004ABR did the same thing in original releases.
I traced the Pipeline problem to the NAT table. By default setting, the Pipeline used a 24 hour expiration time for TCP connection entries. If you put a lot of traffic through the box, eventually it would lock up. I toyed with mine and found that every so often a new connection (or a few) would be allowed, but then new connections would stop. Interestingly, established connections would continue without failing. It appeared that the 24 hour expiration time was causing the system to run out of outgoing references. Changing that to a lower number (I think I used five minutes) allowed the box to run for over a year at a time, and no adverse affects were detected due to the change.
I assume that other NAT implementations suffered from the same type of problem. At the time, there were a lot of people who would hack 5660 (router) firmwares into their 5260 (modem) since they were built on the same base hardware. However, I had it on good authority from within Efficient that early 5260s lacked additional RAM needed for the NAT tables and would lock up after a while. Same type of situation.
I've had opposite experiences with the Microsoft gear. In fact, I have heard a (small) number of people lament Microsoft's withdrawal from the networking market. I was pretty impressed with some of the features, and of course the interaction with Windows XP (whoda thunk it?) But, everyone has their own experiences with various products.
But I'll go so far as to agree with you about their support. Phooey. Unfortunately, most things are getting that way, anyway, and it seems there is no easy way to stop the downward spiral. Cellphones, motherboards, hard drives, etc. You spend a few clams on a device, find a valid problem with it, and the response from support is generally "oh, we discontinued that product. You should buy a new product if you want any support." Said new product will be discontinued in a couple of months as well. So the endless cycle of buy-and-suffer continues.
errrr end of rant
Re:that's odd, the PS doesn't get very hot... (Score:3, Insightful)
[paraphrase]
I cut holes in my sterio cabinet, installed fans and even then I had to put the power brick 2ft away (that's as far as the power cable could reach).
[/paraphrase]
Does that sound like any other consumer friendly appliance? I know that 90% of people who are told they have to cut holes in their hifi rack and install fans, just for the latest gaming console would think it's an urban myth
Re:that's odd, the PS doesn't get very hot... (Score:2, Insightful)
The GP does sound like he has waaaay too much free time :-)
I wonder what new heights this farce will reach. I guess the best is yet to come. First people were lining up in front of stores days in advance for their Xbox, now they attaching strings to the ceilings, cutting holes and putting fans in the stereo cabinets. Next thing you know they'll be moving to Alaska.
If my DVD player started overheating you'd see me lining up at the store to return it.
Re:People who live in cramped quarters (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Buying hardware from a software monopoly (Score:3, Insightful)
MS is no different than anyone else when it comes to (occasional) hardware defects. Any mass produced object will have a certain percentage of problematic units, and the percentage should decrease over time.
Whatever is causing troubles with these units isn't design related, it's manufacturing related. If it were a design issue the defect rate would be MUCH greater than what it is right now.
I know everyone likes to bash MS here, but this arguement is as weak as they come.
Out of proportion (Score:2, Insightful)
My opinion (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft should have thought in advance that people were going to sit in on the floor, put it in cabinets, stack junk on it etc. They should have a bright yellow flashing sticker that warns against the cabinet idea, but when they overheat sitting on carpet? Thats just poor design plain and simple.
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:5, Insightful)
Good thing it's not summer over there, or there might be even more issues reported.
Can't wait for the Australian release - mid summer - with all the people who don't have air-conditioned homes trying to run this think in 35+ degress celcius and see what happens...
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:that's odd, the PS doesn't get very hot... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't have enough details to know if it is a smallish probability or a common problem. But your comment is probably the same thing the Ford Motor Company said when they decided not to fix the 'smallish probability' Ford Pinto whos gas tank exploded in certain rear collisions. They may have sold more units earlier, but they paid in the end and had a damaged reputation for quite some time.
I have bad news for you.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I know of a quite reputable company that ships consumer products with far less burn-in than 140 hours.
Why would you burn in a device for 140 hours? How many problems do you think you find after the first 8 hours but before the 140 is up?
I guess I agree with the idea that it isn't proven in the field yet. But there's nothing you can do about that. You can't wait until it's proven in the field before shipping it, that's a catch-22.
Also, note that MS shipped a lot of debug/development units before the first customer ship. So there are a lot of people with more than a week on theirs. And that's if you don't count the Mt. Dew contest winners, who started getting them a week ago last Friday.
re: you read too much into my comment (Score:3, Insightful)
Some people still seem to believe the illusion that because Dell has a facility in Round Rock, Texas, or because Apple is headquartered in Cuppertino, California, that their products are assembled here in the United States.
Many others are savvy enough to know this is NOT the case at all, yet they still operate under the flawed idea that quality of product is directly related to the abilities of the engineers at the firm. As soon as you give up your manufacturing to a 3rd. party, you lose a large measure of control over the product's outcome. (EG. Your own engineer can specify that he/she wants X and Y out of a component, but who's to say that corners aren't being cut on the assembly line that will cause early failures down the road?)
I haven't ever seen a shred of evidence to support the notion that because Microsoft's "core business" is software, that they're unable to build a quality piece of hardware. I have one of their keyboards on my PC right now, and it's very high quality, balanced with a very reasonable retail price (about $24.95). I've used several of their mice, which I'd rank up there with the best the industry has to offer. When you have as much money as Microsoft, there's simply no reason you can't hire on the type of talent you need if and when you want to undertake a hardware project.
Re:All MS jokes aside (Score:3, Insightful)
Again: they are competing to sell me a device that operates in my living room. The expectation that it will work in a typical living room is NOT unreasonable, nor is it some fantasy that I, along with millions of other console owners, are engaging in. The consumers did not create the expectation, the manufactuers did.
So please, stop arguing that the expectation is defective, because MS and Sony sold that expectation right along with their consoles. Without it, many people simply wouldn't buy the product.
Poor testing (Score:2, Insightful)
I think that they probably did test them....in their air-conditioned laboratories.
They should test the boxes like they will be used. On a shag carpeted floor, in a small cabinet, in direct sunlight, etc.
I quite personally would not be surprised if the wires that connect the xbox to the controllers start breaking within 2 months. They probably tested those by leaving them straight the entire time they weren't used. Not wrapped up around the controller and thrown into the back of a cabinet under the T.V.
One last note: people who wait 12 hours outside a store for an xbox are crazy.
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:5, Insightful)
Legal responsibility, that's why. The whole point of a Professional Engineer can be summed up as "the buck stops here, and I can vouch for every piece of the design, so if the design was followed, I agree (personally; not my company) to pay the penalties."
Most people don't know this, but 'Engineer' is not some phrase you can toss around or apply as desired. It's actually a legally defined term, such as 'Attorney,' 'Medical Doctor,' 'Registered Nurse,' or 'Senator'. As is the case with the title 'attorney' or 'M.D.', it's a criminal offense to call onself an Engineer if s/he don't have a Bachelors (or better) degree from an accredited university, as well as having been officially tested and licenced by the proper governmental authorities (and have the requisite number of years of experience in the field, and have your apprenticeship signed off by multiple Professional Engineers). You can't just tack the name 'Engineer' to a job and/or title; as is the case with Attorney, in which you have to be licensed by Bar, or a Medical Doctor, in which you have to be certified by the boards, an Engineer must also meet similar requirements.
The law was written to allow only competent, licenced individuals to make decisions that can have lethal consequences. Professional Engineers are quite aware of the consequences should they not perform their job with all dilligence.
While it's been fashionable lately for tech wannabies to tack the phrase 'Engineer' to their job description; ie. "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer", or "Certified Netware Engineer", 'network engineer', this practice is illegal and punishible as fraud in most localities. (Microsoft can call it whatever they want; but technically, you can only say you have an MCSE certificate, not that you're an Engineer.)
The practice has really only survived because Engineers, in general, don't get all pissy about people abusing their official/professional title. Hell, I only mention it for education's sake: I have an Engineering degree, I legally can't call myself an Engineer for precicely this reason -- I'm not professionally licensed by the state (nor can I become licenced until I have a few years more experience). Yet when people ask, I tell them I'm an Engineer...
Of course, in the case of people misusing the title of Attorneys or Medical Doctors... I can understand the Doctors worrying-- I wouldn't want to find out my 'doctor' simply put the initials 'M.D.' on his front door. But who in their right mind would want to piss off the same profession that includes the prosecuting attorney, the judge, and the guy defending you?
In every state in the USA (and pretty much every other democratic nation), a Professional Engineer has to sign his (or her) name to every design before it can be sold and/or built. If the design is found to be faulty, civil cases (for money) can be brought against the company. Criminal cases can be brought against the engineer for his/her negligence. Such cases against engineers aren't uncommon (IIRC, it happened to the engineers who signed off the design of the World Trade Center).
Mechanical engineers are the ones who are (legally) responsible for any thermal issues involved in a design.
Electrical Engineers don't generally have to be professionally licenced; case in point: at my university, two of the EE professors are licenced. All of the ME professors are. EE students don't have to pass the FE (fundamentals of engineering) exam to get their degree; ME students do. The number of cases where it's required to be a licenced EE are currently quite small; the largest one is to be an expert witness in a court of law. But an ME needs the licence for just about everything he does.
A good part of this is difference is maturity: The understanding of electrical devices is only a couple of centuries old; however mechanical devices are a couple millenia more mature. I'm sure a century from now, an E
Re:Quality Repairs (Score:5, Insightful)
It is in Texas, where this nonsense was been repealed.
Which actually happens about 0.01% of the time. If the failure of the design won't turn somebody into a nasty smear or splatter, the law is universally ignored. With no consequences to the public. Welcome to the real world.
It has survived because prosecuting it would bring the wrath of the state legislature crashing down. As it did in Texas, when it was discovered that companies were being driven out of business by a state board dumb enough to believe their own pieces of paper, a state board who said with a straight face that the inventor of the integrated circuit was definitely not an engineer.
Have you actually read some of these laws? Like the one in my jurisdiction that requires not merely that the P.E. have a bachelors degree, but that it must come from an institution where every technical professor also has a PE (I.e., no institution on Earth grants qualifying degrees.)
Or the ones that define engineering so broadly that telling someone that two inches of styrofoam out to keep their six pack cool all day is a regulated act of engineering. So broadly that all radio hams must be PEs.
Wrong. The letter of the law requires all design threats to property to be licensed. Not just significant threats, all threats no matter how tiny. Every electronic device incorporating a totem-pole output must be approved by a PE (because the device will destroy itself if the upper and lower switches are turned on at the same time). That the device costs $0.08 and makes a light blink in a novelty toy powered by a AAA battery does not matter. It is Regulated Engineering and by god must be controlled.
Because writing aircraft fly-by-wire firmware and writing Hollywood graphics rendering software are both software engineering. Both require tremendous technical knowledge, the techniques for getting correct results are well established, and billions of dollars depend on each. Yet the required quality is drastically different. One must never fail, while it's OK if the other needs a full-time babysitter.
Licensure on the basis of knowledge, education, or task will always fail. Everyone will ingore it, and any engineering board foolish enough to try to enforce its regulations will be sternly corrected by their state legislature. The rational approach would be to draw up a list of particular types of designs that are regulated. E.g., airplanes, custom architecture, outdoor power lines, tanks operated above a pressure of N psi, and so forth.
And what if you could bring a particular software engineer to justice