A Car With A Mind Of Its Own 1416
mindriot writes "When Hicham Dequiedt, driving on a highway between Vierzon and Riom in central France in his Renault Vel Satis this Sunday, was overtaking a truck, his car began accelerating to 120 mph on its own, apparently due to a defect in the cruise control system. Stomping on the brakes proved pointless and, having a magnetic card for a car key, he could not cut the ignition. After calling the police from his cell phone who then attempted to clear the streets of any danger to him, in what he described as the most fearful event of his life, he raced down the highway for another hour before finally managing to stop the car. Read about the incident here or, in more detail, in this article by the German 'Spiegel' (translation). The case is still under investigation. Are we putting too much trust in the increasing number of electronic systems that our lives depend upon?"
Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Informative)
If you are traveling at a high rate of speed losing power steering/braking will cause more problems for you. First try neutral and even a lower gear if for some reason neutral isn't engaging. It's going to over-rev the engine but personally I'd prefer to replace a transmission or the entire engine rather than my blood or organs.
I couldn't read the translated article as it just wasn't working so I don't know if this was suggested or not but if it wasn't suggested by the police I just can't understand why not.
Emergency Brakes (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Informative)
Re:parking brake? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Informative)
Once, when I was about eight years old, I was in the car with my grandma when the brakes went out. She didn't know what to do. I said "shift down" (automatic transmission) - she did, and we coasted to a stop shortly thereafter.
It's amazing to me that this guy had the presence of mind to call on a phone, but for an HOUR didn't think of downshifting.
Probably he, like most other drivers, is only concerned about going FASTER, not slower.
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:3, Informative)
That might or might not make it any less rotten, but that helps provide a more viable explanation. The English parent article just dropped that part completely - probably because they don't have a native translator and couldn't figure out what the Babelfish translation meant.
Actually, it won't blow. (Score:5, Informative)
It's very accurate; +/- 20 RPM typically.
Sticking an engine with a stuck throttle into neutral will result in it banging off the limiter and making a lot of noise, but it won't overrev.
You can, however, MECHANICALLY overrev a manual transmission by downshifting into a lower gear while the wheels are turning at a faster speed than is otherwise proper for that gear. The wheels and the engine are mechanically connected, and downshifting to too low a gear will spin the motor up - no rev limiter can protect against this.
In certain BMW M3s, the transmission mounts get a little sloppy, and engine torque reaction under hard acceleration can rotate the transmission enough to move the shift gates. It's possible then to try and go 2->3 or 3->4, and hit 1 or 2 instead. This is invariably fatal to the motor. You will bring your pistons home in a bucket.
Depending on the contstruction of any given automatic transmission, it may or may not allow you to take it out of gear and go into neutral under throttle. If you are silly enough to be driving an automatic, this could be a problem - but anybody who'd buy an auto trans where a manual was availible would steal sheep - so you probably had it coming.
DG
Electric power steering? (Score:5, Informative)
Uhmmmmmmmm ... no.
Unless you have one of the (few) cars with electrical power steering, you certainly will not lose power steering by shutting of the ignition.
So long as the engine is turning, the entirely mechanical power steering pump will continue to rotate and provide pressure to the system.
So long as the engine is generating manifold vacuum, you will have power brake boost. Beyond that, some cars (I know my old Volvo had one) have a diaphragm vacuum pump in addition to manifold vacuum to power the brake booster.
The only danger in killing ignition is in carburated autos, where you will continue to run fuel through the engine without spark. This will destroy any catalytic converter, and has a good chance of causing numerous backfires, and damaging the remainder of the exhaust system.
In the same Volvo wagon with the vacuum pump, it had a major overheating problem, but with its fuel-injected engine, killing ignition was a non-issue. No electricity, no fuel pump, no backfire. After climbing a long grade and getting up to 130, cresting the hill, and killing the ignition would cool it back down in just a few tens of seconds just from pumping all that relatively cold air through the engine. (Of course, shock cooling the engine was probably worse for it than the overheating, but it was a dispos-a-car anyway.)
Re:Hey! (Score:2, Informative)
Huh? How do you think a speedometer works? Radar?? The car only knows its speed from the speed of rotation of the tires. So when the tires slip with cruise control on, the wheels keep spinning at the same speed, while the car slows down. The cruise control doesn't know the car is slowing down, so it does not try to gun the engine while the tires are slipping.
When traction is regained, the speed of the wheels suddenly drops, and the cruise control sees this as a sudden drop in speed, and tries to speed up the car back to cruising speed (as it should).
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Informative)
Most of you are wrong (Score:3, Informative)
About turning off the ignition: The only time it is hard to steer a car without power assist is when the car is sitting still, or moving only very slowly (less than ~3 mph). When the wheels are rolling, it is just as easy to turn (I have removed my power steering to save weight in a car that isn't light by any means, I'm a skinny geek and it isn't a problem). The brakes might possibly lose their power assist (unless they are vacuum assist), but even then, as long as you know that the brakes will be harder to push, it isn't _that_ hard.
Next time you are driving in a large isolated stretch of road, try flooring it and putting on the brakes to try to overcome the engine. The car will come to a complete stop (unless you drive a POS with worn out brakes) even with the engine floored. Also, the emergency brake should have a mostly similar reaction, though you will probably end up dragging the rear tires along the ground, given the propensity for front wheel drive these days.
Third, many cruise control systems (not sure about brand-spankin' new cars) use some sort of vacuum or hydraulic control over the throttle pedal. You can physically override the cruise control by pulling up on the throttle pedal.
Fourth, he should have been able to put the car into neutral, even in an automatic. If the car is modern enough to have cruise control, it will slip into neutral, and the engine RPMs will bounce off the rev limiter, and not grenade the engine either (modern engines can run for weeks at maximum rpm without problems). Pull the car over, pop the hood, disconnect the battery or spark plugs until it stops running.
This guy is either a complete moron, or someone looking to speed down the highway semi-legally.
-Jesse
Re:Electric power steering? (Score:3, Informative)
Michael Rayner claimed this happened to him (Score:5, Informative)
1999-06-10 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/365915.stm [bbc.co.uk]
1999-06-08 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/364260.stm [bbc.co.uk]
1999-06-07 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/363407.stm [bbc.co.uk]
1998-10-21 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/197964.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:4, Informative)
The German language article says he came to a stop about 20km before a toll booth...
On the same theme: Saturn made a interesting assumption about their cars a few years ago. At high speed they reduced gas to the engine to control the speed to a maximum of 105mph. According to this entry in Risks digest [ncl.ac.uk] (source of endless scary stories about computing and automation risks) the author was left going down hill at over 105mph, coasting, with a stalled engine, no power brakes and no power steering.
... not fun at all...
Audi had a problem years ago that was supposedly due to a programming error. At low RPM the computer would increase power but fail to sense it under some circumstances. Net result: your car would suddenly go foot to the floor while you were stopped at a red light.
Nothing quite like taking advantage of ignorance. (Score:2, Informative)
I've not yet heard of a production car in which the brakes cannot overpower the engine. In fact, they are required to be able to do so in order to pass highway safety standards in any european country. This sounds much more like a joyride.
This also reminds me of the issue a number of years back when a number of folks had "unstoppable acceleration" in their Audi 5000 cars. They had been driving an automatic transmission and mashed the accelerator instead of the brake.
It would seem that people are so very willing to blame the equipment when they have made mistakes. Technology misunderstood by the vast majority of folks sure does make a great scapegoat.
Of course, I wasn't the one driving, so what do I know?
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Informative)
Bingo. I bet this is the case...many (most?) modern cars have this...hell even my old Buick Park Ave wouldn't allow a manual downshift if it would redline the engine..it would only go down as far as engine speed allowed and no lower.
And as for cutting ignition and losing power steering and braking, well every car I've ever seen has a vacuum reservoir that will give power assist for a couple stops if the engine stops providing vacuum (stops running). After that, they still work but you do have to push much harder. All cars (in the US at least) have to allow the steering and braking to control the car in the event of an engine stall, albeit with increased effort. While it may make things more difficult, it's still probably your first best chance to come out of the ordeal alive.
for sure (Score:1, Informative)
This person is either having people on, or a complete idiot.
You can prove to yourself your brakes are more powerful than your engine by pushing both pedals at once in your car. If you don't want to do that, then just think about it, does your car require more distance to accelerate to 60 from 0 or to stop to 0 from 60? The answer is it stops at least 3 times quicker than it acclerates. That means the brakes are applying more stop force than the motor can apply acceleration force.
Re:Michael Rayner claimed this happened to him (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:3, Informative)
my car can _easily_ spin the back tires with the regular brake fully applied, let alone the parking brake(which is completely useless)
from reuters: neutral gear failed! (Score:4, Informative)
The driver called police to say the cruise control of his Renault Vel Satis had jammed while overtaking a lorry, and that all attempts to brake or put the automatic into neutral had failed, police said Tuesday.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, power steering and brakes are specifically designed to work if the power component fails.
Losing power steering at a high rate of speed is not a problem - you turn the wheel very little when at speed. Power steering is only important when you're going very slowly and/or stopped.
You can easily lock up the brakes using your own leg power alone. Power brakes are just a vacuum booster, to make it way-easy to lock up the brakes. Without power, you just have to press harder. But it certainly is far from being impossibly difficult. And in any case, the vacuum ramains in the booster for some period of time. Just try it the brakes in your garage with the engine off, and you'll get a feeling for it.
Of course, many cars of the up into the 1970's didn't have power brakes or steering. And do you know what? They were steerable and stopable at all speeds. Basic steering and braking systems have NOT changed at all since then.
The only significant danger is enabling the steering wheel lock while turning off your ignation at speed. Watch out if you turn off your ignition while moving - you don't want to mistakenly LOCK your steering wheel while at speed.
Mod down parent.
actually..... (Score:2, Informative)
in short, while it may seem a fishy tale, these things do happen, although i didn't call the police nor did the problem fix itself on approaching a tollbooth.
Re:Oddly enought, from their website: (Score:2, Informative)
Nothing really: You get Euro NCAP Stars for good performance in crash tests. No electronics involved, just plain old metal...
Re:Nice Thought But... (Score:2, Informative)
I doubt you can shift straight to neutral with many of the "F1-style" paddle-shift gearboxes. You have no lever to shift to "N" and the box won't shift down if the revs are too high. There simply isn't a control which lets you do anything but shift up and down.
A car going off on its own is one things - you still have steering and brakes. The guy in the story survived, after all. The idea of a malfunction with fly-by-wire steering is truly terrifying.
Fail dangerous? (Score:3, Informative)
The throttle sensor gets stuck on max, the gearbox is a sequential automatic with safety features to prevent damage to the engine, they take away the key and lock the card while driving and you get launched down the road at 120mph.
Yay Renault! Sounds like a lot of thought has been put into how to make a single point of failure *really* dangerous.
Re:This happened to me. (Score:3, Informative)
As explained in many other followups, this is absolutely nonsense.
A car in normal operating condition should brake much harder than it accelerates. Try it the next time you drive the car: time how long it takes to accelerate to 50, then time how long it takes to stop from there.
Re:Cheap shot ... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Cheap shot ... (Score:2, Informative)
Cheap insult: moronic ignorant xenophobic American. Heard of the TGV? 300 km/h (over 1800 mph), running since the early 80s, not a single fatality and only a small handful of accidents. Compare that with Amtrak or British Rail. Heard of the Concorde? Heard of Airbus?
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Cannonball Run (Score:4, Informative)
If it's true, it's fishy indeed.
They also say that the car seemed to behave normally when a mechanic drove it from his truck to a garage, but if it was some kind of rare sftware malfunction and the computer reset itself, they wouldn't notice anything anyway.
I don't even know if they have logs in these car computers.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Informative)
Interesting mention. This is exactly what gasoline-electric hybrids like the Civic Hybrid and the Prius rely on when they shut off their engines. I've personally found that this reserve braking power can do quite a bit for stopping your car. (Basically, the Civic Hybrid will restart the engine if it detects this reserve running low. So, after coasting down a hill and reaching high speeds with the engine off, I can easily bring the car to a stop without the engine kicking back in.)
Re:Electric power steering? (Score:3, Informative)
In most cars, the engine won't be turning no matter how fast you're coasting. Try it with an automatic transmission and see.
10X as many automatic transmissions are sold as manuals in the U.S., and the numbers are somewhere around 7X for Europe. With an automatic transmission, as you know, the torque converter is driven off the output shaft of the engine.
So, if the engine stops developing power, the pump half of the torque converter stalls. Unfortunately, torque converters don't work backwards. Therefore, the fluid pressure in the fins disappears and engine and drivetrain effectively become disengaged. You're now coasting. Thanks to compression, the engine comes to a halt really quick.
Know what that means? No power steering, no manifold vacuum, no power brakes, no engine braking. You're in for a hell of a ride.
This is a real problem when taking automatic 4X4s offroading. Picture stalling the engine on a steep hill... *shudder* Unfortunately, I don't know of any good way of fixing this, short of converting to stick.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:1, Informative)
It may make a lot of gear-grinding noise, but the teeth physically can't mesh. This means your engine is safe (even if it's a bit rough on the transmission gears) Nice, huh?
Re:And he stopped just in time... (Score:5, Informative)
2. It is what you get from integrating non-vital and vital circuits to save costs. Dunno if the Vel Satis uses similar electronics, but the recent Citroen and Peugeot (the other two french makes) run using a single integrated on-board computer that controls everything from wipers to engine. To add insult to injury it is a low end crap running Windows CE. It is quite noticeable - their speed displays are fully digital and it takes them 2+ seconds to update between reading (as of Citroen C2). Enough to lose your license in some of the UK speed camera happy areas. That is besides that it is an el-cheapo passive LCD which cannot be read if you have polaroid sunglasses or if the sun is behind you (Citroen C2 and C3 at least).
3. This case is an example why you should not buy an automatic and a keyless entry until proper cars are available. In fact I would rather have my speedo analogue as well (it takes less time for human brain to read an analogue dial compared to a digital number).
Re:This happened to me. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Informative)
As far as my car, the transmission doesnt allow you to downshift if there is more than a 3000 or so rpm deficit between the gears.
Also, to the GP who said never to turn off the ignition in a moving car...you can surivive without power steering, in fact *GASP* some cars don't have it to begin with.
Braking is more of an issue but that's why cars are equipped with emergency brakes.
similar issue in airplanes (Score:3, Informative)
You're completely off on Euro auto/manual stats (Score:3, Informative)
It is nothing like 7:1 automatic:manual in Europe; if you inverted that you'd be closer to the truth (I work for an Irish used car website and out of 16,500 cars currently on the site well under 10% are automatic.)
The Vel Satis is a relatively high end Renault so the chances of it being an auto are higher; still however out of the six Vel Satis models sold here new, four are manual... [carzone.ie]
Car Computer Problems (Score:2, Informative)
I have no faith in the computers put in cars these days. Part of it is definitely a 1997 Accord which has a couple of problems with it. Similar to the guy in the post, cruise control will sometimes settle on a speed 5-15 mph higher than what it was set at (but is luckily responsive to turning it off.) Also, and possibly more annoying, is the door locks. The doors are supposed to lock when the car starts, and unlock when it stops, and they do, but they keep doing as such randomly. I'll be driving around, and the doors will randomly click locked a dozen or so times.
Can't wait for them to get such features as online, software/firmware updates--it'll be great to have virusses on my car.
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:1, Informative)
I don't know if anyone has told you this, but the yoke that the pilot yanks on does not hook up to anything. It is all electronic. So if the electric system goes, you can yank on that yoke all day long, and the plane will keep flying in whatever direction it's going.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Informative)
BusinessWeek says French quality IS good. (Score:2, Informative)
I was smugly chuckling to myself about this also, until I read this. [businessweek.com]
Re:Hey! (Score:3, Informative)
"traction control" is nebulous.
Generally when someone's talking about traction control using ABS, they're referring to a fancy system that's designed for high-speed maneuvarability, like in a slalom or something, and actually has *nothing* to do with the road surface.
of course, the GP isn't aware of that, poor guy.
Just being pedantic, because generally when people argue about what traction control does, they're all right, it's just that "traction control" is such a nebulous phrase as to be virtually meaningless.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Informative)
1) Lock: This locks the steering and lets you remove the key
2) Accessory: Unlocks the steering wheel and provides power to things like the radio, but not the engine
3) On: Provides power to the spark plugs
4) Start: Provides power to the spark plugs and starter motor.
You can safely turn the key from "on" to "accessory" if you need to stop the engine while driving. Normally, turning the key further into the "lock" position requires extra effort, such as pushing a button.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:2, Informative)
Now, I've heard of cars where you can't turn the key to accessory when the car's not in neutral or park, but never actually seen them, and I'm not actually sure they exist...I think it's just people making assumptions about their car. If anyone actually has a car that will not do that, please respond to me. (I'm talking physically, here, not weird-ass drive-by-wire cars that you turn off electronically, like in this article.)
My automatic Pontiac Sunbird would not only let you do that, it would also let you 'push start' it. Of course, you had to be going like 30 mph or so, so you couldn't actually push start it unless you had a damn big hill, but if it stalled while driving down the highway, you could just flip the key to accessory and then back while in gear.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:2, Informative)
Or, perhaps in countries outside America they don't sell vans and trucks. Must be interesting getting cars from the factory to the dealership without putting miles on them.
In these you operate your so called "hand"brake with a foot. No, I'm not talking about the pedal just beside the gas. I'm talking about a totally separate pedal with a latch release.
Ergo, it is no longer a handbrake. The term "embergency brake" works better as it covers any method of operating a manual brake for the rear wheels only.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:1, Informative)
brakes are always stronger than the engine (Score:3, Informative)
In almost every car ever produced, the brakes are far more "powerful" than the engine. This is complete bullshit, unless the car was poorly maintained or had a serious defect. You can't ride them- you really have to push hard and bring the vehicle to a stop quickly, or yes, you will overheat the brakes- but even if you do that, you don't have to wait long for them to cool down. You CAN'T use your handbrake- it's a PARKING brake, not an "emergency" brake, and yeah, they tend to not be properly adjusted so they won't do a very good job of stopping the car; since little weight is on them, manufacturers don't make the rear brakes very big. Use the BRAKE pedal, people.
Elizabeth Jordan, a NY EMT who called 911 claiming her car was out of control, became completely hysterical- a cop finally stopped the vehicle by pulling in front of her and using the cruiser's brakes(and rear bumper) to stop.
Funny thing, but they found absafuckingloutly nothing wrong with the car she was driving. The woman was simply a hysterical bitch who wanted attention. Suddenly after being brought to a stop by the cruiser, she could turn off the ignition. Why the fuck didn't she do that in the first place?
99% of the stories about cars going "out of control" are bullshit. It's almost always driver error- or a complete fabrication by the driver to get out of trouble (or for attention).
Re:UPDATE, more info available (Score:3, Informative)
I have a Renault Laguna II which has the same card key ignition system. It holds the card in the slot when the engine is running - there is a hole in the card and I guess it puts something through that to stop you removing it. Whatever it does, it doesn't want you removing it without turning the engine off first.
In addition, part of the front of the card (that is usually exposed when it is in the slot) pulls out to reveal a normal key. You can use this key to unlock a hidden lock on the doors if you ever have problems with the card. The card is great for everyday use, but I can appreciate that in an emergency there isn't much to grip on.
I can also confirm that the semi-automatic gearbox used is designed to make sure that you don't kill the engine. Eg. in manual mode it won't let you shift when it might stall/over-rev the engine. In fact, if you put it into a gear and accelerate, once it hits the rev limiter, it will (after a short pause) shift up for you.
I imagine that the cruise control system got fried, so pressing on the brake or pressing the "0" button on the steering wheel would both have had no effect as they are both signals to the same computer. The vehicle computer probably wouldn't let him shift to neutral either to protect the engine.
Chances are that being in France, he would have had a diesel as it's the most common engine choice in Europe and given it maxed out at 120mph. As I am sure everyone is aware diesel engines tend to be fairly torquey, so it could well be quite fun trying to brake at the same time the engine is running flat out.
Renault also don't have a very good reputation for electrics; very worrying given their latest vehicles contain a lot of technology as standard, which makes them attractive over the competition. That and the overall design is, shall we say, different
Re:And he stopped just in time... (Score:4, Informative)
The first article [mfes.com] is on point... it says average cars' brakes have 3-5 times more horsepower than their engines.
Here [wardsauto.com] is an article which specifically talks about the Audi problems...
Most car experts and magazines such as Car and Driver supported Audi's position, knowing full well that working brakes can always overpower the engine, even at full throttle. But major media outlets chose to ignore basic facts and instead gave front-page treatment to theories about sunspots causing cars to run wild.
Re:Can you explain more clearly what happens? (Score:2, Informative)
The things you learn fast when your clutch cable snaps while driving.
Re:Can you explain more clearly what happens? (Score:3, Informative)
You can't safely pull the hand brake at 120 mph. Brakes have metal wiring in them that can snag the tires if it's bared, and pulling the hand brake at that speed would probably rip away the pad pretty quick. Not only that, but there's no way the brake could've stopped the car before it burned up unless it caused the cruise control to finally stop as well. If you don't believe me, you've gotten a half mile up the road and suddenly realize you left the emergency brake on. It's only meant to hold the car in place on an incline and to add some extra power to your real brakes, it's not meant to actually stop the car on its own.
Re:Can you explain more clearly what happens? (Score:4, Informative)
In all the cars I've ever owned/seen, the hand brake cable is connected to the exact same rear brake pads as the foot brake is connected to. If the pads wear out, the solid metal behind the pads comes in contact with the drum/disk and they overheat. But there's no wire in contact with tire outcome.
Ironic... (Score:3, Informative)
If it weren't for Renault management Nissan would not be around today as they were nearly bankrupt when they formed their alliance. Whatever the rep for lack of quality Renault had, they learned from experience and became quite a well run company. And I wouldn't discount the possibility that Renault parts are being used more and more in Nissans (and vice versa of course...the two brands are even starting to visually resemble each other).
Back in the AMC/Renault days the same thing happened--a Renault diesel engine, instrument cluster and bucket seats turned up in a handful of Jeep models sold in North America. The AMC Alliance/Encore was mechanically identical to the Renault 9/11, except that AMC supplied different accessories (bumbers, grille, headlamps, wheels, radio...). AMC was also planning to bring the Espace to the US and Canada to compete with the Dodge Caravan (possibly to be assembled alongside the "AMC/Renault Premier" in Brampton, Ontario). Of course, that plan was quashed when Chrysler took over, but the Canada-built R25 was sold as Eagle Premier and Dodge Monaco.
The same thing is happening to Nissan, except Renault seems to have learned from its mistakes. This time it seems they are not only trimming the fat and get in effective management like they tried with AMC, they figured out that ultimately you cant stay in business seling junk. I KNOW some Renault engineering/styling is finding its way into Nissans, and they definitely source most if not all of their parts through common suppliers. Thankfully, for the most part Renault is learning from Nissan about quality control.