No, I don't think that's the one (although I may be mentally mixing details from that one with the other)

The one I'm thinking of had wholesale fabricated data, and this data set would up being used by a number of other studies who didn't realize that the data books were cooked.

I do wish I could provide more detail, but I don't have it with me at the moment and can't really take the time right now to track it down.

DG

There was a big story a couple of years ago - I'm sorry that I don;'t have the details readily availible, but Google could probably find it - in which the data from which a number of prominent "human global warming" studies drew their facts turned out to have been deliberately falsified.

I want to say it came out of England but I may be mistaken.

Not just cherry-picked (although that happens too) but made up from whole cloth.

DG

Are you, perhaps, a Jesuit?

You appear to have a talent for the ruthless pursuit of heretics.

For all your chest beating, you present not a single fact - and, in so doing, continue to strengthen my initial point.

DG

Because science isn't a democracy. Majority doesn't rule. I don't care if 90% of the "experts" think that the earth is the centre of the solar system, or that fire is a product of philostegon, or that light travels through the luminous aether (all perfectly reasonable postulates that were at one time held as fact by the majority of the learned) when there is data and experiment that suggests a helocentric solar system, rapid oxidation, and electromagnetic waves as alternates.

There are studies that arrive at a conclusion of human-caused global warming. There are studies that arrive at human-caused global COOLING. There are studies that find global warming of a scale similar to temperature swings in the past, and those that claim that the current swing is unprecidented.

And instead of all these studies being studied in aggrigate and being used to fine-tune the overall picture, the respective "sides" just yell at each other and - even worse from a scientific perspective - agressively seek to discredit the other and ruthlessly surpress dissenting opinions.

You don't need to look any farther than the moderation history for this comment tree; back and forth between "Insightful", "Informative". and "Overrated". And it is the "Overrated" that I find most telling; rather than debate the facts, attempt to surpress the discussion - the tactics one expects of the big-business backed "anti" crowd, not the supposedly dispassionate and logical "science" crowd.

So I have chosen #1 and #2, and I find that the facts as presented are non-compelling either way, and I further find that the tactics used especially by the "it's happening" side are both frightening and inconsistant with the scientific method. That doesn't mean they are WRONG (the dissenting picture painted by the facts prevents either side from claiming victory) but it sure isn't helping anything.

Do you not see this?

DG

There is an element of truth to that - if, for example, someone determined that the root cause of all cancer was masturbation and that all cancers everywhere could be eliminated by eliminating masturbation, he'd face quite the uphill battle to both prove it and effect the behavioral change.

But there is a difference between getting the public to accept a difficult or challenging truth, and the kinds of fraud and groupthink that is happening right now amongst those who study global warming/climate change. If you do a study which determines that, within the boundaries of your study, human effected climate change is not happening, or that at least a proposed mechanism is not being observed, and then publish those results, your peers will seek to ruthlessly discredit you, you run the risk of losing your funding , and in many cases, your job.

One could argue that the "broadly held opinion" is that "climate change is happening" and those struggling to overturn it are those whose studies show otherwise.

DG

*facepalm*

I am agnostic not because I am "ignorant", but because my analysis of the studies that I have read - many, many of them - arrives at the following conclusions:

1. Neither case is particularly compelling; and

2. Both cases are presented by people with vested interests and evidence of fraud, so neither side is particularly trustworthy.

Thank you, by the way, for providing an example that proves my point. You regurgitate the groupthink, and instead of relying on science to make your argument for you, instead immediately go to an attack on the man, rather than the facts. This is the sort of behavior that makes me profoundly distrustful of the proponents of "global warming" as a postulate.

DG

Au contraire, mon ami.

When Europe came out of the Little Ice Age, temperatures warmed up even faster than what has been observed lately.

Look, when it comes to the whole "Global Warming" thing, I'm an agnostic. I have no dog in the fight; no ox of mine will be gored one way or the other. I am perfectly willing to be convinced either way, and I'm equally skeptical of both sides.

It is not lost on me, for example, that the big oil companies and other major industrial emitters tend to be on the side - by which I mean "fund" - the studies that argue strongest for the "it ain't happening" side. That's as you'd expect; that the short term profit motive and general bad behavior of these sorts of organizations would motivate them to attempt to refute and deny any soi-disant "inconvenient truths".

But on the other hand, the "it's happening and it's all human activity" side is RIFE with corruption, falsified studies, poor models, groupthink, and generally shitty behavior too. Some of this we can chalk up to normal primate "Gorillas in the Mist" social (bad) behavior - but certainly not ALL of it. Not even MOST of it.

If the case for man-made global warming was so compelling, there would be no need for all these shenanigans. The science should be able to stand on its own. And yet, it clearly does not.

There are aspects of the "reduce the carbon" movement that I can fully support. Fuel efficiency, for example (energy efficiency in general for that matter) is a great idea on its own merits. We really don't know what the fossil fuel supply reserves really are, and anything that conserves fuel is ultimately a good thing. The same thing with protecting forest areas and reforestation/greening in general (green roofs and the like) These measures all have compelling arguments for them without playing the global warming bugaboo.

But as it sits right now, all the arm-waving and Strongly Worded Claims aren't doing anything to address the problems that people like myself have with the underlying science. The case is not at all made.

DG

Firstly, you have no idea how happy I am to finally reach a human being at Garmin. Seriously, when every single official communication has "you may not hear back from us" in it... well it is very frustrating.

That avionics "get it right up front" philosophy has not been my experience at all. The Rino was like that - not a single bug (but also an older codebase) but the Palm software for the GPS 10, the nuvi 765, and especially the Edge 705 have been very much "customer tested" devices.

Just look at the release history for the 705.

I don't mind "customer testing" when bug fixes are pushed out quickly. But when bugs sit for a long time, then I start getting upset.

The infinite reboot bug on the 765 I lived with for years. The Powertap wheel size, cadence, and spurious pauses I have been living with since Sept when I got the Powertap. All bugs were dilligently reported and I heard nothing since.

I really want you tolook at the internal bug tracker for these devices and let me know their status and the release schedule for the fixes. I'll settle for you raising these issues internally so maybe they'll get fixed.

Thanks.

DG

I, quite literally, own t-shirts older than you.

Just sayin'

DG

1. OK, I'll give that a try - but I don't expect that it will work, because there are a ton of people on the Garmin forums complaining about this issue. The changelog from the next-to-latest to latest version indicated a fix for this issue, but it clearly didn't work. So it was on the radar for a while at least. It is really pissing people off (the 705 isn't cheap) but Garmin has been totally uncommunicative.

2. Got it, thanks.

3. This is another long-standing "known problem". There is a steady stream of broken sensors being sent to Garmin for repair and has been for years. I'm frankly amazed that there hasn't been a fix yet.

4. OK, cool. It would be good to get a definitive answer, but so far so good.... Good to know about the Audible player. As much as I friggin' hate the Audible subscription business model, audiobooks are THE best way to make long trips feel shorter, and having the player in the GPS (especially because the GPS can cut in for directions without losing track of the book) is sheer friggin' genius.

Now, an observation:

I've been a very long time Garmin customer. I've got one of those yellow bargin-basement devices, a Rino 520 for work, a nuvi for the car, a 705 and 500 for the bikes, and even a GPS-10 bluetooth reciever I used to use with my Palm Lifedrive. So I'm familliar with Garmin products and the Garmin way of doing things.

Garmin clearly believes in "release early, release often", especially with device firmware (desktop software not so much). Early versions of device firmware typically lack features and have more than a few bugs, but there will be a constant stream of updates which fix bugs and add features.

Sometimes there are regressions and new bugs created, but that's software development for you.

But when you use customers as testers like this - which is fine; that's the Open Source development model less the open source and the ability to submit patches - there needs to be a communication channel back to the customers to let them know what is going on.

As it sits right now, customers communicate bugs, that goes into a black hole, and there is no feedback on where the bug is, if it is being looked at, or where the plans are for future development.

As was pointed out in earlier posts, these devices remain viable for a very long time - and they ain't cheap. Yes, I get that the Edge 800 is the new thing and that is going to suck up development resources, and I'm OK with new features not necessarily being backported to older devices. But I *DO* expect that known bugs with existing devices get examined and fixed. And as a customer, I want to know *when* the bug is going to get fixed. I don't need it (necessarily) fixed right this second, but I do expect that it will be addressed eventually.

If you browse the Garmin forums, you will find all sorts of customers who love their devices and want to see bugs fixed, and who are tremendously frustrated with Garmin's lack of communication back to them.

Can you communicate this to your bosses? Or is this a mater of Garmin policy?

DG