Age Discrimination, Indian-Style 400
theodp writes "In April, IBM CEO Samuel Palmisano told investors Big Blue hopes to dodge an estimated $6 billion in liability stemming from a judge's ruling that IBM violated U.S. federal age discrimination laws. In May, IBM closes on its $150-$200MM purchase of Indian outsourcer Daksh, whose age requirements for job applicants make Logan's Run seem progressive. On its Opportunities page, Daksh states that Customer Care Specialists should be between 21-25 years of age and Team Leaders should be no older than 27. Early Daksh investors included Citigroup and we-don't-need-no-stinking-unions Amazon."
Well.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well.. (Score:2)
Not any more. Even at my day job at a huge semiconductor firm, the internally-used technical specifications for major designs are frequently in broken English. At least they try to write them in English, unlike conference calls where frequently people start gibbering in
Re:Fuck you, racist. (Score:4, Insightful)
Foreign accents, I don't mind. I work with Iranians at my workplace.
But I can't understand half the words Indians use. Which makes it TWICE as hard when you are trying to fix a server.
If Microsoft, Cisco, etc are going to charge me an arm and a leg per incident, they should provide someone who speaks English I can understand.
It's not racist, it's a fact. If I can't understand you, you are no use to me.
Re:... you, racist. (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Slow down. The performance metric that says that the faster you handle a call is done without consideration for the customer
2. Stop that infernal beeping. I don't know what that is - something telling me they're recording the conversation or something, but when a conversation has every fourth word bleeped out it's hard to understand, especially if they're asking important questions I may have to pay for.
Josh
That's what is wonderful about outsourcing (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:5, Insightful)
The only reasons companies discriminate based on age is that younger people are easier to persuade to work harder, longer hours, and that they usually doesn't require as high pay as older, more experienced applicants.
It is NOT because younger people are smarter or brighter than older people. And who says they are, anyway? IMO, any supposed loss in thinking quickly is easily made up by the experience and better problem solving skills of older people.
Re:Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:5, Insightful)
It is NOT because younger people are smarter or brighter than older people
Younger people are not bright when it comes to refusing to work overtime so much that it destroys health and family life.
I know that often they can't refuse to work hard, because jobs are hard to come by these days and some other youngster is ready to take the place, but also it's usually illegal to fire someone for refusing gross overtime. The only trouble for young people is how do you prove you were fired by your boss on that ground in court.
Re:Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:4, Interesting)
However, if you are supporting mission critical software or hardware for a company with very expensive ($100k +) support contracts who expect reliable, professional, top-notch, respectable, hard-working employees who take sick days only when they're really sick and can be expected to return a page immediately and be on call like a responsible adult, you hire people with proven industry experience.
I work in such an environment and I'm almost the youngest person in our huge (thousands globally) support division at the age of 28. Almost everyone else is in their 30s, 40s and 50s. Almost all have college degrees plus five or more years of experience and many have masters degrees.
We can only hope for one thing (Score:5, Funny)
There is something rotten in the state of Denmark! (Score:2, Offtopic)
That being said, if you happen to be Danish, please carefully watch the following clip:
There is something rotten in the State of Denmark [ugent.be]
Ok, no
Age discrimination (Score:2, Insightful)
This strategy is less likely to work if all your staff look like Alice Cooper.
Re:Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:4, Insightful)
With regard to maternity leave, it is basically paid vacation. Vacation is expensive for an employeer. From the employees side, it is a great help in the balance between work and family.
More like recovery from surgery. The fact is that we, in this society, recognize that people need to have kids in order to continue the species, and that it's a good idea to support this. The only reason it's even an issue is that the dominant sex in business suffers minimal impact when they get someone pregnant.
Some people would say my employeer should be required to take me back, I don't. Perhaps its cause I'm young, single, and stupid. I would like to think otherwise.
More like young and naive. If you gave notice, who'd pay the dentist - oh wait, dentists aren't usually covered anyway. It sounds like you've never had to deal with being out of work for a long period, or pay for medical care in said jobless period.
Re:Let's make one thing crystal clear (Score:3, Insightful)
Speaking from an employer point-of-view, it is basically paid vacation, whether you wish to acknowledge that or not. A paid vacation is where an employer pays an employee when they don't show up to do work. During paid maternity leave, and employer is paying someone who is not going to show up to work. They are, in fact, the same from a financial standpoint. They are also the same from a sociological standpoint: a reward of payment for services NOT rendered as an act
heh (Score:2, Funny)
Is this a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Things are tricky. I lost my job to Indians but managed to find something more stable and well paying since I do have a good degree, do have plenty of experience, I am relatively young. But what happens when I get older.
Things are bleak and cold and confusing, the only thing that is sure is people will not think twice about letting you go if that means they can keep their job or make a quick buck.
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
The *counbtry* does not have any rights... (Score:2)
When you start saying that "countries" have rights of their own it is pretty much a start on a slippery slope to Communist/Nazi regimes. (BTW, I've lived unter the former one).
Paul B.
Ah, the Imperial US raises its head again. (Score:2)
Well yes, if the alleged circumvention happens in above hypotetical country.
No if it happens elsewhere, like India, where it may not be illegal to discriminate based on age.
The historical circumstances of each place are different, and your country does not have any rigth to make others conform to your own standards (which regarding worker protection are substantially lower to many other places, India inclu
Re:Ah, the Imperial US raises its head again. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
I can't really get especially mad if companies outsource to better workers, but since they are outsourcing to workers who accept much worse conditions I do tend to get mad. Are we really so eager to let major corporations throw away all the progress we have made to force them to treat us like sentient beings and not numbers?
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:3, Informative)
Better in this case equates to "same capability for less cost". Lower wages do not necessarily mean worse working conditions. In fact, from talking to Indian friends who have worked both in the US and in India the actual working conditions are equivalent. So why are you mad exactly?
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
And who will pay for those additional taxes? That's right, the customers will. Sorry chap.
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
As they should.
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
In my opinion this type of behavior will only produce workers who have a "look out for me" attitude. They will work only long and hard enough to keep their jobs. Come to think of it, this is almost exactly like the Indian cul
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
Example 1: Company hires local experts, fairly high regulations yadda yadda. Product cost $X to make. Company charges $Y for product.
Example 2: Company decides to cut costs to become "more competitive." They outsource entire operation to a less regulated/expensive part of the world. Product cost $X - 50 to make. Company charges $Y for product.
Example 3: Government gets pissed off that Company is avoiding local income taxes etc and tax company out the w
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2, Informative)
While you could make a case for this in some industries, like textiles, it isn't the major factor in most cases of outsourcing. The main reason that companies outsource is because people are willing to work for less elsewhere, and this is overwelmingly because the standard of living is lower in their country.
As someone else pointed out India does have unions and wage laws, and
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so much the standard of living as the cost of living. For example, the film industry has started doing lots of low-cost production in Australia and New Zealand. Now, the standard of living in those countries is comparable to (and arguably better than) the standard of living in the US. But the cost of living is much lower, so the labor is cheaper. From what I understand of the situation in India the standard of living for Indian tech workers is simialr to that of their American counterparts, but again, their cost of living is much lower.
Re:Is this a problem? (Score:2)
A big reason for this is that the local Indian economy is sustained by people who earn much lower wages. If you want domestic help you can get a live-in maid for $100/month. The guy repairing your car earns $3 per hour. Landscapers? $1.00/hr.
Re:India -- Democracy (Score:3, Informative)
Re:India -- Democracy (Score:2)
Re:India -- Democracy (Score:2)
Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Informative)
At the factories I worked at in one of the southern 'special economic districts' [zhuhai.com.cn], it seemed like they just provided crowded dormitories and food for the teenage girls working the lines. I guess they could have been paid in addition, but certainly not enough to allow for any kind of 'upwardly mobile' trend or savings.
Of course, on the other hand, it was sometimes hard to be too angry at the western companies, since it looked like the farmers in the surrounding areas in China had it a lot worse than those who worked in the factories. At least the girls working the lines got steady meals, a clean place to sleep, and some basic education (reading and writing abilities help productivity in high-tech factories quite a bit).
Being a wage-slave for a multinational corp must have looked like the best option to the many peasants as well, considering that I was told - when watching peasants being beaten by the side of the road by police and I asked one of our reps what was going on - that people without the right papers aren't allowed into the special economic regions but that they come anyway in hopes of slipping in and finding a job.
Retirement: Whoo hoo! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Retirement: Whoo hoo! (Score:2, Informative)
HR's business (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HR's business (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe they did, and someone noticed?
Two points: (Score:4, Interesting)
2] More resources on age descrimination [yahoo.com]
Re:Two points: (Score:3, Interesting)
If I decided to take on younger people, the only reason I can imagine I would do so would be to milk them for everything they're worth, and then discard them for the next generation of suckers. And that is what is happening right now in India.
This is gonna get worse. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to keep your job (Score:2)
Nice theory, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nice theory, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
I've received quotes from Indian outsourcing companies where they could supply a staff of people who spoke (a) brittish, (b) southern/texas, and (c) american/california accents, and promised they'd adjust their style to match the caller.
They also quoted rates for having the staff read the local newspaper of key markets so they could make appropriate comments about the weather, ball games, etc.
This service was much more expensive than the competitor's heavy-indian accent bid, though.
Re:Nice theory, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
His neutral accent sounded just like the "generic white guy" from any movie.
Re:Nice theory, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
There's no such thing. It is imposible to speak English (or any other language for that matter) without pronouncing your words in a particualr way. That is a way of speaking, an accent. Travel a bit, and you'll realise that "unaccented speach" is really just "the way people talk where I grew up".
Re:Nice theory, but... (Score:5, Informative)
And, I was "traveling a bit": I was observing an accent training class at Daksh in Mumbai two weeks ago.
Know of what ye speak.
Re:Nice theory, but... (Score:2)
Life expectancy in India (Score:3, Interesting)
This is bad even for /. (Score:3, Insightful)
The age discrimination IBM was hit with was related to pensioners having their benefits plan changed; it had nothing to do with hiring.
The stuff on the Indian side of things, well, isn't really all that strange. The same thing happens informally in the US and in fact even the government has minimum ages for many elected representatives.
But of course this will just turn into another "Oh, woe is me, I can't believe that skilled people in other countries are getting jobs too." (Nevermind that it's still much harder for an Indian with strong tech skills to find a job than an American.)
Re:This is bad even for /. (Score:3, Insightful)
However, your comparison of minimum age requirement in US elected representative doesn't really apply in this case. The problem with the hiring in the Indian firm is about maximum age requirement. This is indeed troubling.
I find it strange that people seem to brush off foreign IT hiring practices. Look, outsourcing is an em
Re:This is bad even for /. (Score:2)
How exactly is a maximum age troubling but a minimum one not? I don't see the fundamental difference between:
In fact I'd say it's pretty common practice in corporations to hire younger people for the entry level positions because there's a hope that they'
story text is misleading (Score:5, Informative)
IBM has discrimiated against older workers in the past, and they're buying a company that discrimiates against aged works now, but other than sharing the common feature of discrimination by big blue, these two events are unrelated.
Time to UNIONIZE (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard a lot of arguments against this in my time (many of them on Slashdot), and most of them boiled down to this: IT workers, as professionals, shouldn't unionize. Unions are for blue-collar workers. While I suppose this is a nice way to think about your job and make you feel better about paying tens of thousands of dollars a year for a degree in Information Studies, it's ignoring reality. Perhaps the best way I've seen someone put it is, in reply to someone complaining about needing a buzzword-compliant resume, that such requirements should be a clue that IT workers are now a commodity. Like it or not, IT is the new factory worker of the 21st century, and if IT workers don't wake up and unionize, they'll get screwed so fast their heads will spin.
Maybe the AFL-CIO or UAW would be up to the task? They're only a postage stamp or a phone call away.
Re:Time to UNIONIZE (Score:2)
Get the Teamsters involved! Think about it: If IT workers were Teamsters, and there was a contract disagreement between IT and management, then NOTHING would get shipped ANYWHERE by truck. That would really be an issue for most large corporations.
Don't rely on professional organizations like the IEEE and ACM to help you with your career. These are international organizations, and don't give a rat's ass
Re:Time to UNIONIZE (Score:2, Insightful)
This works very well for truckers because you can't just say, "Ok, we're firing all of you and hiring Indian truck drivers." You can't outsource your electricians' work to another country and sending your car to the shop -- on another continent -- isn't practical.
If anything unionization in the IT sector would just hasten the process of outsourcing.
Those are not US jobs. (Score:2)
The wasteful way of life in the US society is contributing to it becoming less competitive (but not so much that you are too bad off. Stop whining, the US has it good, people normally have food and a roof on the top of their heads).
Slightly off topic.... but along the same lines.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, people in this group grew up with the likes of the VIC 20, the ZX81, The Oric, The 80's 8 bit computers that we learnt and understood like riding a bike. No qualification, or degree will ever match what we know, and understand. Where students now learn computing in Uni, or secondary school, get taught IT skills, we learnt it through love of it, at 10 years of age, or earlier.
We are the David Beckhams of the industry, The Tiger Woods. Understand that in this era, we are kings, and our ability will never be surpassed by anyone just getting a degree, however young. I am 31, and the my best work (so far) has been in the last year or so. In my workplace, we have had people younger, but, though they can code well, they seam to just miss the point... They just analyze any problem, and apply it to what they've learnt at school or uni, they do not truly understand that problem, or how to realize the best solution.... and there solution is, well, ok, but never shows any innovation or 'Wow factor'
.... Tony.
Re:Slightly off topic.... but along the same lines (Score:5, Interesting)
We use to refer to you lot as the "appliance computer users".
I've found my familiarty with hardware/electronics to be an EXTREME asset in the embedded market.
plurvert
Re:Slightly off topic.... but along the same lines (Score:2)
I think that anyone who went through school with a calculator is mentally unprepared. I've seen far too many people unable to do simple arithmetic without having to dig out a calculator.
To be honest I haven't found age discrimination to be a problem - I'm 54 and recently found myself unemployed through the failure of the company I was working for. I was able to get a series of pretty good offers as a senior level Java programmer within a couple of months. Pretty much all anyone asked about was my skillset.
Nonsense. (Score:2)
In a society where even mobile phones have calculators and where every single computer (an article obiquituous in most societies nowadays) pops up a calclculator with one or two clicks, the calculator seems like the obvious, necessary too to perform arithmetic.
Re:Slightly off topic.... but along the same lines (Score:2)
Seriously though, I think having a solid understanding of how computers work at a hardware level is extremely useful in helping one understand 'the big picture'. But I don't really see how gaining that by hacking in assembler on a G4 or K7 processor is any different than gaining that hacking on a 6809 OR 8088, and I question the usefulness of having 'POKE 65495,0' st
What a load of tosh. (Score:2)
The truth is that at any age you find people that know little and people with loads of skill and talent.
If people are not learning to program in assembly language an obscure microprocessor is because it is a skill no longer needed, computing has moved one or two abstraction levels and most profesionals do not need to trouble themseleves with such topics.
Anyone ever looked at job ads in Japan? (Score:3, Informative)
Why?? (Score:2)
Re:Why?? (Score:2)
Read here [japanvisitor.com].
Answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Personality assessment through blood type analysis has been prevalent in Japan sine the early 1970's. The Japanese term for this theory is 'ketsu-eki-gata', and is taken surprisingly seriously by the people from that part of the world. Books have been published on the topic, selling very well. In fact, Toshitaka Nomi has published over twenty-five books, and is considered the worlds leading expert on the topic. The blood type categories are used in a similar way to astrology in the west, focusing mostly on relationship aspects of life. Nomi goes further in his books though, even using blood type make up within a country as a theory for that nationality's general national traits.
Japanese companies often take blood type into consideration when hiring employees, to ensure harmony throughout the staff. All the major car companies in Japan have reorganised themselves in order to attain positive blood type combinations in different working sectors. Surveys have been carried out to try and determine the preferences of different blood types, be it for food, clothes or any recreational activity. It is also a popular topic of conversation in social settings.
More can be found here [allsands.com].
Re:Answer (Score:3, Funny)
So, I just look and behave like total a nerd, but in reality I'm a warrior hero jock. Damn! I wish this analysis would be more widely known.
workers of the world (Score:2)
This is quite common in the third world (Score:3, Insightful)
Businesses have much less regulations and worker protections than in the US and other industrialized countries, so they often collude to set artificially high prices for goods (although those prices may be still lower than in the US, due to the limited income of third-world consumers) and artificially low wages and working conditions for labor. And a handful of families control the majority of the wealth in the country.
US companies that outsource should realize that the countries and companies that have a blatant disregard for worker's rights and fair competition also aren't going to give damn about less tangible ideas like intellectual property and privacy.
Unions are dead (Score:4, Insightful)
"we-don't-need-no-stinking-unions Amazon."
Unions are dead. Japanese car makers, Walmart, and many other business have show us this time and time again. Unions kill creativity, bring little benefit to workers anymore, and will only stagnate the company's growth.
Welcome to the information age... (Score:2, Insightful)
Trust free markets (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, sometimes companies take advantage of the system to expolit people, like communisim. Other times they take advantage of phoney property rights like copyright and patnet monopolies, other times they take advantage of false barriers to entry - like excessive regulation of the railroad industry, or RF frequencies. Not to mention our centralized monitary/tax system routinely rips people off, and locks people into the system when it comes to credit or money. - But from my experience, these problems have more to do with the publics poor belief systems than free markets.
Moral: societies that have more libertarian values have more economic prosperity for the little guy.
Re:Trust free markets (Score:3, Interesting)
Sweden vs. USA ; USA has more libertarian values than Sweden but has much more equitable wealth distribution; given that the standard of living for Sweden and USA is roughly the same, this means the "little guy" does better in Sweden than USA contrary to your assertion (there are many more examples and
Quite common in that part of the world (Score:2, Interesting)
One of the most hilarious things that I saw was when a research institute that is "...committed to organising professional research, policy studies, and seminars in the area of
Feminist would freak (Score:5, Insightful)
In the Philippines, it is customary to include on your resume: age, religion, marital status, weight, height, a recent photograph, and if female, "measurements". If you don't, you probably won't be considered. The age of being "past your prime" is about age 25, professionally and maritally. You can be summarily rejected for employment for any of the above parameter values - being muslim as always been a strike against in the Catholic Philippines. Not being of the right sex or not being "pretty enough" to "decorate" the office is pretty common.
I'm sure other countries are similar. USian companies are required to follow the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act [usdoj.gov]; I wonder if it could apply to foreign age discrimination of subcontractors and subsidiaries?
Re:Feminist would freak (Score:5, Insightful)
I can understand (but not necessarily agree) wanting a young pretty woman for your receptionist, but it's economically stupid to demand them everywhere else.
Re:Feminist would freak (Score:3, Interesting)
Part of the attractiveness of the Philippines for outsourcing is that there are many tens of thousands of college graduates either unemployeed or underemployed (architects doing ditch-digging, engineers pumping gas, nurses working as secretaries, etc. and even more living wit
Alladeen, a play about outsourcing (Score:3, Interesting)
NPR did a good story [npr.org] on it in December. If you don't like using ears, Fortune [fortune.com] covered it too.
Paying offshore workers much less than American workers would make for the same job isn't necessarily exploitation. The "low" salaries really depend on perspective. For example, a call center worker in India makes more money than a doctor does.
Both Ways (Score:3, Interesting)
If its because the older workers get paid more and won't work for less money then its a pay issue and not really an age discrimination issue. If you wan't the job that badly work for less; nobody owes you anything.
And before you think its just so much easier for us youngsters...
Age descrimination works both ways. I worked for a couple years in California at an orgization that would match 12% (Yes, 12) of your pay and put it in a 401K for you but they wouldn't do this for you if you were under 21. Thats age discrimination and apperently its perfectly legal.
Oh...Yeah, did I mention how much more us youngsters have to pay for our car insurance even if we have a clean record?
Or that the cost of college compared to the average income has skyrocketed making it much more expensive for us to get an education.
Or that the cost of a house compared to the average income has also been steadily increasing making it more expensive to get a foot in the door and buy a house.
Or that even with all of the above those of us starting out have to pay a higher percentage of our income in taxes making it harder for us to save up enough to put a down payment on a house.
Or how we have to pay tons of money into social security (a much higher percentage than previous generations) even though its possible (probable?) that we'll never see any of that back.
As an Indian good to see this topic (Score:4, Interesting)
When I worked in India 10 years ago, it was common to see such ads. Some companies also asked for your marital status, the number of kids you have, and your driver's license number. There was no option but to provide this information.
Some pressure on them to discontinue such practices would be good.
Human Commodity (Score:3, Interesting)
Palmisano is more than 27 years old! (Score:3, Funny)
Lay him off! See how he likes it.
Just make sure that the medical insurance costs more than the parachute.
Because they're children. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:reverse age discrimination (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with 14-17 year olds is not in their lack of intelligence, but in their lack of common sense. I think the main issue is that the majority of kids do not support themselves and until they do the really shouldn't have much of a say in how things should go.
I suppose I could possibly support a measure for them voting if they were not claimed as a dependent on anyone's tax return.
Re:reverse age discrimination (Score:2)
As someone said, while you could introduce a minimum criteria or "standarized" testing as a requirement for voting, it could be "used for evil"... it would never pass because of the dangers of class discrimination, or if it passed, it would very likely be used for such things... unintentionally, even. Hence most democratic countries lack a literacy restriction on the vote.
Even a substantial amount of intelligence is no guarantee of common s
Re:reverse age discrimination (Score:2)
Re:reverse age discrimination (Score:2)
you might want to look up the definition before (Score:2)
Neoliberalism [wikipedia.org] is a political philosophy and movement beginning in the 1960s that de-emphasizes traditional liberal doctrines to achieve progress and social justice by more pragmatic methods, especially an emphasis on economic growth. Because of close association between this philosophy and neoclassical economics, and confusion with the overloaded term "liberal", the term neoclassical philosophy is advocated by some.
Either term is primarily used by critics of neoliberalism rather than proponen
You sir, are a fool. (Score:4, Insightful)
A company is just a group of people who are trying to make the most amount of money possible. Regulations merely say "This is what it takes to earn money legally in this country."
Therefore, for maximum profits, a company would need to function in the maxiumum number of countries, while following their regulations, and keeping production in the cheapest possible country.
The nation does not owe the corporations that dwell within a profit.