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Linux Crypto Packages Demolished

Posted by simoniker on Mon Sep 22, 2003 05:19 PM
from the security-is-all-relative dept.
SiliconEntity writes "Cryptographer and security expert Peter Gutmann has demolished several Linux security software packages in a recent posting to the cryptography mailing list. He says, 'It's possible to create insecure 'security' products just as readily with open-source as with closed-source software. CIPE and vtun must be the OSS community's answer to Microsoft's PPTP implementation. What's even worse is that some of the flaws were pointed out nearly two years ago, but despite the hype about open-source products being quicker with security fixes, some of the protocols still haven't been fixed.'"
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  • What a great Quote (Score:5, Funny)

    by G Money (12364) * on Monday September 22 2003, @05:19PM (#7028720)
    (http://www.novacoast.com/)
    I wish I could make this my signature (damn 120 char limit):

    "Whenever someone thinks that they can replace SSL/SSH with something much better that they designed this morning over coffee, their computer speakers should generate some sort of penis-shaped sound wave and plunge it repeatedly into their skulls until they achieve enlightenment."
    --Peter Gutmann
  • Use the trustworthy stuff (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2003, @05:20PM (#7028726)
    I only use the Cyrillic Projector code. No one ever will crack that.

  • Oh no! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Compact Dick (518888) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:22PM (#7028746)
    (http://www.thundersplace.com/)
    Demolished? Where am I now gonna get my SSH and GPG from? :-(
    • Re:Oh no! by inode_buddha (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @09:23PM
    • Re:Oh no! by Thyrsus (Score:1) Tuesday September 23 2003, @10:38AM
  • POPTOP (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fmlug.org (695374) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:24PM (#7028763)
    (http://fmlug.org/)
    What about the poptop project at http://www.poptop.org/. There is also a really good client package at for pptp servers at http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/ I use both and they seem to be much better then vtun and cipe.
  • CIPE (Score:5, Informative)

    by dnoyeb (547705) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:24PM (#7028764)
    (http://www.rigidsoftware.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday September 24 2005, @11:58PM)
    When I investigated CIPE for the first time two days ago, I read somewhere on the site that it didn't work yet, or that it provided no security. How can you critize a package for being insecure when they tell you it is?

    Did I miss something?
  • thank you captin obvious (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2003, @05:25PM (#7028767)
    he points to CIPE, a tool which hasent been updated since jun 02 and Vtun since aug. 2001. he says TINC was just as bad but was fixed when users complained. I think the obvious conclusion is that if people use the software and email the person who maintains it, it will get fixed. if the project goes stagnent because the author doesnt maintain it or people dont use it then of corse it will be vunerable after time as more flaws are discovered and not patched.
  • Give this man a PhD! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by volkerdi (9854) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:25PM (#7028776)
    It's possible to create insecure 'security' products just as readily with open-source as with closed-source software.

    This sentence can be reduced to "It's possible to create insecure security products" without losing any important content.

    The question should be, is it possible to create a truly secure product when there's no opportunity for public code review? My answer would be "no". I shudder to think of how many critical holes would be found in most popular closed source network products if people like Michal Zalewski were allowed to review the source code.
    • Re:Give this man a PhD! by fishbowl (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:39PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Give this man a PhD! by monkeydo (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:55PM
      • Re:Give this man a PhD! by Minna Kirai (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:30PM
        • Re:Give this man a PhD! by ceejayoz (Score:3) Monday September 22 2003, @07:06PM
          • Re:Give this man a PhD! (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Minna Kirai (624281) on Monday September 22 2003, @11:10PM (#7031067)
            If there truly are zero vulnerabilities, security holes, bugs, etc., it's secure

            I thought I just explained the definition of "security". It's different from "safety". Check your local dictionary for more info: security is an assurance of safety.

            You might be safe, but if you don't know it, you're not secure.
            [ Parent ]
        • Re:Give this man a PhD! (Score:4, Insightful)

          by monkeydo (173558) on Monday September 22 2003, @09:11PM (#7030384)
          (http://slashdot.org/)
          No, what do you think "security" is?

          In this context I think "security" is a process of minimizing risks to acceptable levels for an arbitrary application.

          If the public can't review something, they can't know it's safe.

          So? 99.999% of the population can't determine good programming even if the source is open. I guess by your theory there is no secure software in use at the CIA or the NSA because "the public" hasn't seen the code.

          The sanely paranoid won't take anyone's word on security, they need the ability to check it personally.

          "The sanely paranoid" != "The public"

          Only those using the software need to know it is secure. This can be accomplished whether the software is Open Source or not.
          [ Parent ]
          • Re:Give this man a PhD! (Score:4, Insightful)

            by 1lus10n (586635) on Monday September 22 2003, @10:12PM (#7030732)
            (Last Journal: Wednesday July 14 2004, @10:44PM)
            "Only those using the software need to know it is secure. This can be accomplished whether the software is Open Source or not."

            i responded instead of modding you. Let me just point out that if the public is using it then it should be open source so that the neccasary non-corporate people (hackers) can take a look at the code and fix what is needed, in the case of microsoft they are saying "trust the people who we employ, and who depend on our products to make money" which is a very very bad thing to rely on.

            The open source community might not be perfect, but its one hell of alot closer than any proprietary setup. (not to mention that the larger the OSS community gets the more people will be looking at the code, hence more security.)

            the CIA and/or the NSA are bad examples of security in software. (as is anything in gov't) because politicians decide what gets done, and politiks do not mix well with software.
            [ Parent ]
          • Re:Give this man a PhD! by Minna Kirai (Score:3) Monday September 22 2003, @11:04PM
          • Re:Give this man a PhD! by stoborrobots (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @12:03AM
      • Re:Give this man a PhD! by kahendricks (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @06:51PM
    • Re:Give this man a PhD! by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:04PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Give this man a PhD! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @06:12PM
    • Re:Give this man a PhD! (Score:5, Insightful)


      #1 - He's right.
      #2 - So are you, or better yet consider this:

      If CIPE were closed source, would he have even been able to write this article? Unless I missed something, nobody ever claimed OS was flawless, just that the flaws were open to scrutiny.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Give this man a PhD! by ceejayoz (Score:3) Monday September 22 2003, @07:09PM
      • Sigh by FallLine (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @08:45AM
        • Re:Sigh by gilgongo (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @09:03AM
          • Re:Sigh by FallLine (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @12:04PM
    • Re:Give this man a PhD! by iabervon (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @10:01PM
    • BZZZzzt - Wrong by pVoid (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @10:29PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2003, @05:26PM (#7028785)
    All these years after Phil Zimmerman released the original PGP code, we STILL don't have anything which satisfies the need for a securing email. It would have these properties:

    1. Be under a BSD-ish license, so it could be linked in to commercial and non-commercial products.

    2. Be a LIBRARY, not a stand-alone executable, so it can be linked into anything at all.

    Let's see, the Xiph people want their protocols to be used all over the place, so they make it a BSD-license LIBRARY that anyone can link to. Hmmm, seems to be working. The PNG backers want their format to be used all over the place, so they make it a BSD-license LIBRARY that anyone can link to. Hmm, seems to be working. The PGP/GPG people want their stuff to be used by people to send mail everywhere, so they make it either a non-Open Source license (PGP) or a GPL license (GPG) and also never ever make it a library for non-existant "security" reasons. Guess what! No one uses it!

    Oh, and while I'm ranting about the horribleness of Open Source security stuff, why is it that there is STILL no well-integrated filesystem crypto in any of the Open Source operating systems, including the security-oriented OpenBSD? No, loopback crypto kludges don't count at all.
  • CIPE is a toy (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2003, @05:26PM (#7028786)
    He's talking about CIPE and pals...

    I remember when I installed Red Hat I went looking for IPsec .. I found CIPE thinking it was an IPsec implementation.. a quick perusal through the source code and docs made it appear to me that it was basically somebody's homebrew project designed with little regard for security. IPsec has its problems, depending how you set it up, but this was worst.

    The 32-bit CRC thing caught my eye as well. I'm no crypto export but I know enough about it to remember how CRC-32 is a weakness of the SSH 1 protocol.

    I have since set up freeswan and am happy with it even though I really don't understand IPsec that well I think it has been more closely scrutinized.

    So yeah, the author is probably right when he calls it the open-source PPTP... I don't see what it has to do with open-source or closed-source, although with open source it was easy for me (and the author) to gauge the quality of the code and avoid it.
    • Re:CIPE is a toy (Score:4, Informative)

      by jpc (33615) on Monday September 22 2003, @07:08PM (#7029547)
      hmm, not so sure.

      First, the CRC32 problems only put it on par with ssh 1. Which is still in use by many people I suspect. ok it should have been fixed.

      The padding iisue just means that aes cant be used. afaik cipe doesnt let you change ciphers anyway. Its not that bad - the algorithms it uses are probably safe for a few more years. Plaintext size leaks small amounts of information, so it is not best practise, but not fatal. aes would be nice though.

      The message sequence issue (replay etc) is on the face of it rather bad, except that cipe is designed for carrying ip traffic. Repeating or removing udp messages is fine, and tcp messages do have sequence numbers. So I fail to see how that is a problem.

      And the key exchange is fairly irrelevant as it is basically a private key protocol. They key exchange stuff was an afterthought and I doubt if anyone uses it. Designing public key encryption is much harder and cipe should have stuck to private key.

      [ Parent ]
  • by Meat Blaster (578650) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:27PM (#7028788)
    Cryptographic programming is one of those disciplines that comingles heavy mathematics, electrical engineering, and programming in the same field.

    One can browse a manual on the topic and write an implementation that technically works (when paired with a similarly shoddily-designed decoder), but be fully unaware that the pseudorandom generator is just that. Or that the ones-complement portion of the crypto engine fails when X=0, weakening the whole thing by sixteen bits while not producing garbage.

    Unlike a crappily-designed game, it's a lot harder to spot when crypto goes wrong. And most of those thousands of eyes supposedly peering over the code aren't looking that hard.

    I'd still contend that commercial crypto has had more and bigger flaws overall, but he's right that the open source process alone isn't going to give you good crypto.

  • Denied, lame by fire-eyes (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:28PM
  • Well then, fix it! by coinreturn (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:30PM
    • Re:Well then, fix it! by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:40PM
    • Re:Well then, fix it! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by katre (44238) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:52PM (#7029027)
      Instead of making yourself look so great by "demolishing the security," why not offer the fixes?

      If you read the article, his advice is almost every case is "Scrap this, go learn basic crypto, and try again." I don't know crypto at all, but I'm willing to bet that's good advice. And if so, why on earth should he take the job of re-writing CIPE? I think it's great that he's getting the word out that it's insecure. These are the things that should be public knowledge.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Well then, fix it! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by cmowire (254489) on Monday September 22 2003, @06:10PM (#7029143)
        (http://www.wirewd.com/wh/)
        I'd go one step farther.

        Sometimes the best thing a programmer in this situation can do is to just declare a piece of software broken beyond repair and just retract the sucker.

        I mean, CIPE might have made sense before the widespread availablity of open-source, carefully crafted IPSec software. Now, your best mileage is to provide easy directions for how to build an existing, functional IPSec setup.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Well then, fix it! by ljavelin (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:24PM
      • Re:Well then, fix it! by coinreturn (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @07:30PM
      • Re:Well then, fix it! by LilJC (Score:1) Tuesday September 23 2003, @07:38AM
      • Re:Well then, fix it! by plcurechax (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @09:24AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Well then, fix it! by switcha (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:28PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Issues... by dnotj (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:30PM
  • Software popularity (Score:5, Insightful)

    by _iris (92554) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:31PM (#7028832)
    (http://drew.intercarve.net/)
    The time it takes to fix software is inversely proportional to the popularity of that software. I know 0 people that use CIPE and vtun.
  • Ah.... reminds me of the early days. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by solios (53048) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:33PM (#7028848)
    (http://amongthechosen.com/)
    Back in the day, whenever I'd bitch about how window managers lacked basic functionality, how the default IP tools didn't do multiple hot-switchable configurations, about the lack of decent documentation in the distro, about some aspect of the application that didn't work, shouldn't work that way, or had TOO MANY OPTIONS.... the response was ALWAYS "dude. The source is THERE. FIX IT YOUR OWN DAMNED SELF." With "That's a FEATURE, not a BUG." being a close second. To which I'd usually reply "I'm an ARTIST, not a CODER," resulting in a flamewar about the quality of the Gimp, but that's a different story.

    Things like this will get fixed when the people maintaining the packages start doing the gruntwork that gets those little bits enterprise grade- in other words, doing the hard, annoying, pain in the ass shit that you pretty much have to get paid to do, because nobody wants to do it in their free time. Big bonus points to open source software companies for making a BIG effort to do exactly that. :D
  • Hot News (Score:4, Funny)

    by tarquin_fim_bim (649994) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:33PM (#7028850)
    Unmaintained software........unmaintained.

    In other news, Bear shits in woods.
  • Of course, the more obscure package, the more bugs by Kjella (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:34PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by Coryoth (254751) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:36PM (#7028890)
    (http://jedidiah.stuff.gen.nz/wp/ | Last Journal: Wednesday April 04 2007, @02:51PM)
    I'm pretty sure there are some pretty pathetic, sad window managers out there too. Some of the text editors are rather less than impressive as well. There are all manner of dodgy MP3 managements systems. OSS creates all manner of bad software because ANYONE can code something up and release it.

    The security and cryptography field just highlights the problem because there are so many opportunities to do something particularly stupid in those fields. Anyone can write a cryptosystem that they can't break themselves. Unfortunately a lot of people figure if they can't break it, then neither can anyone else...

    Jedidiah
    • Re:So some OSS crypto products suck... and? by tarquin_fim_bim (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @06:24PM
    • by AntiOrganic (650691) on Monday September 22 2003, @06:24PM (#7029230)
      (http://www.madtasty.com/)
      I don't think it's fair to say that "OSS creates all manner of bad software because anyone can code something up and release it" because they're perfectly capable of doing that without giving you the source too. At least here we have the ability to see the problems and avoid that software rather than taking the author's word that it's SUPAR 1337, which is much better than finding out much too late that our new IP tunneling solution that we've deployed on a 10,000-machine corporate network needs to be replaced with something else, like some people probably discovered with the PPTP issue.

      Like is highlighted in the article, these problems with "dodgy" software tend to arise when the author decides to reinvent the wheel, but neglects the tire and the axle grease.

      Everyone wants to make a name for themselves by being the next Richard Stallman, rather than working on the established products with comprehensive peer review and years of code history. Why write new protocols that are doing the same thing that SSH is doing? It's nonsensical.

      There's usually very little real reason to create these abominations. If an existing project doesn't have a feature you want and you're capable of coding it, for God's sake, code it to work with the existing product. I'm willing to bet that the guys behind these protocols got flat-out laughed at by anyone doing real cryptography work, but still somehow felt that they were right all along.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:So some OSS crypto products suck... and? by plcurechax (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @09:52AM
  • my two cents (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jeffy124 (453342) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:38PM (#7028903)
    (http://slashdot.org/my/amigos | Last Journal: Sunday July 25 2004, @02:59PM)
    Linux in general is more popular than this project. That popularity gives it more eyes to keep watch on it, and shorter turnarounds when problems are found.

    As for this project (CIPE), I personally have never heard of it. Indeed, neither has the poster from that mailing list: A friend of mine recently pointed me at CIPE, a Linux VPN tool that he claimed was widely used but that no-one else I know seems to have heard of.
    • Re:my two cents by rjamestaylor (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @10:25AM
  • One word: by bersl2 (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:39PM
  • vtun and ssh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nilsjuergens (69927) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:39PM (#7028926)
    (http://www.efisto.org/ | Last Journal: Sunday March 30 2003, @11:48AM)
    Vtun is still far from being useless.
    Just turn off vtun encryption and use it via a ssh tunnel. That works very well (i use it for securing wifi) and uses a proven protocol.

    I also believe this is good practice and should be a widely accepted policy - re-use of good and proven software is not lame - it is crucial for easy, fun and secure software development. There really is no need for re-inventing the wheel.

    Now if only ssl were so integrated into the operating system that i could use select() on a ssl-socket created with socket(), and thus making writing of ssl-enabled apps as easy as non-ssl-enabled ones, that would be great!

  • by whoever57 (658626) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:40PM (#7028928)
    (Last Journal: Thursday September 30 2004, @01:33AM)
    FreeS/WAN [freeswan.org]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • openvpn is much better (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nirik (5709) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:40PM (#7028933)
    If you are looking for a good vpn package for linux, try openvpn:
    openvpn [sourceforge.net]

    It was created a while back when all the other linux vpn products were not that great, and it seems like thats still the case.
  • vtun by FrostedWheat (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:42PM
    • Re:vtun by gl4ss (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:12PM
      • Re:vtun by gl4ss (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @05:17AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Well put by indole (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:42PM
  • Well duh? by miffo.swe (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:46PM
    • Re:Well duh? by Acidic_Diarrhea (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:54PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • What a big waste of time by pbcaston (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:46PM
  • from the VTUN page : (Score:4, Interesting)

    by painehope (580569) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:49PM (#7029009)
    (Last Journal: Wednesday October 16 2002, @11:21PM)
    1.19 How secure is VTun ? Well. VTun doesn't try to be the MOST secure tunneling software in the world, it tries to be fast, stable, rich of features, easy to use and secure enough instead. VTun uses Challenge Based Authentication and doesn't transfer passwords in clear text. Encryption module uses MD5 for 128 bits key generation and BlowFish algorithm for actual data encryption. There could be some weaknesses in key generation method, we will try to address them in future releases.
    ...
    1.23 Can I use vtun over SSH ? Yes, via the port forwarding feature of ssh. Don't enable vtun's encryption as ssh does its own encryption. Also, make sure to select the tcp protocol as SSH can forward tcp but not udp. An example session might look something like this: home$ ssh -L 5000:localhost:5000 work.megacorp.com (authenticate if necessary) work$ vtund -s home_tunnel_config ... home$ vtund home_tunnel_config localhost

    Now, having said that, I use VTUN and haven't had any problems. But then again, I also have the boxen firewalled to hell and back, no services allowed but SSH from a few known hosts, no root SSH, etc. So even if you do crack my key, you're not getting much that will get you anywhere.
    While I don't consider it the most secure tool, it does the trick well enough for now. Kudos to the VTUN team, and kudos to Peter for his examination.

  • vtun security: ssh by kwerle (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:54PM
  • Talk about stating the obvious! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by polyp2000 (444682) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:58PM (#7029067)
    (http://www.polyprecords.com/ | Last Journal: Friday October 03 2003, @02:20PM)
    Open Source or Closed Source, its just as easy to write insecure software, either way.

    The point is, that with open source you can see just how insecure or secure a particular product is by looking at the code.

    Open source is inherently no more secure than closed source software. The difference is people like "Peter Gutmann" can see what is wrong and be at the ready with suggestions how to fix it.

  • From Freshmeat: CIPE
    Rating: 8.35/10.00 (Rank N/A)
    Vitality: 0.01% (Rank 4941)
    Popularity: 2.72% (Rank 1001)

    VTUN
    Rating: 8.55/10.00 (Rank N/A)
    Vitality: 0.02% (Rank 2787)
    Popularity: 2.69% (Rank 1017)

    Neither of these projects are dead, quite, but neither is terribly active, either. Sourceforge shows one developer for CIPE, for example.

    As an earlier post said, crypto demands skills which aren't generally available, in an unusual combination. Many competent eyes make bugs shallow. Many competent coders make bugfixes quick. It looks as if those packages haven't drawn the competent eyes and coders yet.

    Maybe Mr. Gutman's post will draw some good folks who are able to do the work to these projects. Or maybe it will inspire the maintainers to simply let them fade away. Either way, we're better off for his efforts.

    A third possibility is that folks will just not care. Gutman tells us:

    - These programs have been around for years (CIPE goes back to 1996 and vtun to 1998) and (apparently) have quite sizeable user communities without anyone having noticed (or caring, after flaws were pointed out) that they have security problems.
    This kind of thing needs to be fixed or abandoned; bad security is worse than no security
  • CIPE is nice... by hey (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:16PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Freeswan? by SCHecklerX (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:23PM
  • Executive Summary by Rock Ridge (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @06:33PM
  • the conclusions mostly do not follow (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fermion (181285) on Monday September 22 2003, @06:38PM (#7029329)
    (Last Journal: Thursday May 03 2007, @11:34AM)
    I think what this shows is that security is very hard to do. It is very hard to come up with a good protocol. It is very hard to code that protocol so it is secure. It is very hard to deploy the code so it is secure. The author is of course correct that security code should be left to those that are competent.

    The first big difference between OSS and commercial products is often that commercial products want to either invent a new proprietary protocol, or, for marketing reasons, push an obsolete protocol as a new innovated protocol. Both of these leave end users insecure. However, since everything is proprietary, there is no way for the user to know the level of insecurity. And, if we may drop names like in the article, Scheier lists a new company nearly every month who tries to push crap as security, though he has gotten so annoyed that he has skipped months of late.

    And to drop the name again, Schneier, has spent his time of late trying to convince people that security is so much more than protocols. The protocols must be implemented in code correctly and deployed correctly. Unless one is a huge national agency with a classified budget and decades of security experience, it is unlikely that one can create a secure product. It is much better to make the code public so that interested parties can investigate. It doesn't mean they will.

    The two of these combine in interesting ways in closed software. There are claims of 1,000,000 bit keys. There are situation in which security by obscurity is used as the first line of defense. There are situation in which the DCMA is used as the first line of defense.

    Which is just to say that conclusion #1 and #2 does not follow from the text. Just because one finds a few packages that are out of date in OSS, does not mean that finding a few updated packages in closed source software are more secure. Conclusions #3 and #4 are trivially valid, and applies to anyone writing software in any model. All programmer should take the advice to heart, especially if they want to design a right management system using closed protocols.

  • "Linux" Packages (Score:4, Informative)

    by pete-classic (75983) <hutnick@gmail.com> on Monday September 22 2003, @06:53PM (#7029439)
    (http://hutnick.com/ | Last Journal: Monday March 12 2007, @09:15PM)
    It is eminently unfair to call these "Linux" packages.

    Of course, none of them are GNU packages, either . . .

    OTOH, tinc does have a linux.org homepage, but then it seems to not be "Demolished" by any reasonable definition. He says "This is a terrible way to use RSA, and usually compromises the key." and I'm no crypto geek, but I think what he means by "compromises" is "provides and avenue of attack that is mathematically simpler than brute force against the key" not "reveals the secret".

    So, two seemingly abandoned projects are suspect, and one relatively arbitrary (but Open Source!) package has a theoretical weakness.

    All that said, my question is: What has been demonstrated (or demolished)?

    -Peter
  • Chicken Little by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:58PM
  • This is open source working, people (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ikekrull (59661) on Monday September 22 2003, @06:59PM (#7029478)
    (http://members.xoom.com/ikekrull/)
    This guy, obviously with more than a few clues about security, is able to examine the products, right down to the source level, analyse the security provided, freely publish his findings and suggest improvements (even if all he suggests is 'scrap it', and something about skull-fucking with sound-waves.)

    This is great information, and while it might not reinforce the 'open source uber alles' message, it is very useful to anyone who might be considering working on these or similar projects, as well as anyone that uses them.

    Even if Mr. Gutmann says these products can't be completely fixed, at least the authors can improve them now based on his comments, and just because this guy says it can't be done, doesn't mean it is gospel.

    I say a big thank you to Peter Gutmann (a fellow kiwi, alright!) for taking the time to write this and help to improve the state of open source security products.

  • Karma Troll: "Yeah, but...." by NineNine (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @07:01PM
  • Oh the Irony by dtrent (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @07:16PM
  • what an inane analysis by penguin7of9 (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @07:21PM
  • The Real Problem (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Effugas (2378) on Monday September 22 2003, @07:22PM (#7029635)
    (http://www.doxpara.com/)
    First of all, I've got a tremendous amount of respect for Peter Guttman, and not just because he's the author of the coolest quote relating to computer security of all time (if you can't find it in that essay, you're not paying attention). But...he misses the point.

    We do not have an effective method of running a stateless cryptosystem, but IP actually does require stateless operation. All these mini-systems that have sprouted up exist because of this.

    SSH(which, incidentally, violates Guttman's rules by using "the same key for encryption and authentication") and SSL(which utterly falls apart when the cert gets compromised) both run over TCP. TCP is not IP. TCP adds reliability, through error detection, correction, order management, and congestion management. That's all well and good, but sometimes I really don't care when I drop a packet. Voice traffic is a fantastic example -- by the time the retransmission is complete, the data is stale and irrelevant. But TCP will not only stop to retransmit, it'll hold up everything else while it does so, and even slow down the connection to be sure a dropped packet doesn't happen again.

    There are _many_ protocols which can accept these semantics. But there are many that cannot, and there's a bigger problem: By supporting those protocols that do not share the connection semantics of TCP -- DNS, VoIP, etc -- we end up being forced to carry either GRE or PPP packets over the SSL/SSH tunnel -- and inside these PPP packets, that are being carried by TCP, is more TCP.

    This doesn't work very well at all -- effectively, both sockets attempt to simultaneously adjust to changing network conditions, and since neither knows about eachother, they both screw up badly.

    All because we do not have a stateless cryptosystem that works. It may very well be that such a demand is impossible. Stateless cryptosystems can send a message and not only not prenegotiate a session key, but tolerate large number of dropped packets. Replay attacks need to be suppressed, but packets need to be able to survive high latencies. CPU load needs to be kept reasonable, but no message can rely on the asymmetric results of another.

    In short, normal cryptosystems are built to be inflexible to attackers; we do not know how to make them simultaneously flexible for networks. The reasons why should be obvious -- anything that can go wrong on the network, will go wrong because of an attacker. So telling everybody to use SSH/SSL is ultimately code for, "We just don't have the crypto to secure IP." And we know IPSec is a failure; if it hadn't been for VPN's, it'd be as rare as multicast and a hundred times more expensive.

    Solutions? I suspect short signatures will ultimately make the difference, as will better time-based protocols (at least for intra-admin-domain work.) But no matter how high my opinion is of Guttman, I cannot ignore he considers solved problems that fundamentally refuse to go away.

    Yours Truly,

    Dan Kaminsky
    DoxPara Research
    http://www.doxpara.com

    P.S. There is an immediately available VPN solution that's free and doesn't suffer from TCP-over-TCP effects. Look up Dynamic Forwarding for OpenSSH ... TCP is terminated at the forwarder, addressed using SOCKS4 or SOCKS5(>3.7.0), and forwarded to the appropriate destination on the other side of the tunnel. It's TCP _only_, but it operates completely in userspace.
  • Not Linux only! by jrockway (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @08:15PM
  • Solution: use vtun with SSH by go-nix.ca (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @11:51PM
  • E-mail reply re: IPSec by MikeBabcock (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @01:09AM
  • Phew! by x Golden Hawk x (Score:1) Tuesday September 23 2003, @01:35AM
  • but the reality is... by Kynde (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @03:34AM
  • Why not just use IPSec? by oohp (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @04:26AM
  • Peter Gutmann and tinc (Score:4, Interesting)

    by gsliepen (303583) on Tuesday September 23 2003, @04:55AM (#7032222)
    Peter Gutmann contacted us (the tinc developers) on September 15th, quoting the part of his writeup relevant to tinc. We exchanged a few emails since then. There are some points where tinc could certainly be improved (some of it already planned for 2.0), but we don't believe the "real problem" he mentions actually exists. We have told him our objections to his writeup, and asked if he could prove or make it more plausible that an attack on the authentication protocol is possible. He still hasn't convinced us.

    In some more detail: the 32 bit predictable IV might make the other 32 bits of the first encrypted block more vulnerable, but the other 32 bits of that block only contain part of a MAC address which does not reveal any important information. It does not compromise the other blocks AFAIK, and in fact a sequence number instead of an unpredictable random number is more secure according to Jerome Etienne, who has done a much more detailed security analysis of tinc in the past.

    The messages encrypted with RSA are indeed not padded, but padding is, AFAIK, only necessary when the message is shorter than the RSA key. In our case, the message is exactly as long as the RSA key.

    Peter Gutmann believes there is a possible MITM attack ("Chess grandmaster attack"), but hasn't shown us how, just that he believes it's there.

    Peter Gutmann also believes tinc has to be configured identically on each endpoint, but that is not true at all.

    We're still in discussion, and if we believe there is really a problem we will fix it. In his conclusion Peter says that everyone should be using SSL or SSH. We could, but I don't believe SSL is necessarily the be-all and end-all of encryption.
  • VPN's are Complicated..... by nuintari (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @06:19AM
  • Rate of change by lvirden (Score:1) Tuesday September 23 2003, @06:50AM
  • Problem of semantics by Rogerborg (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @08:41AM
  • Replacing CRC in CIPE by hey (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @08:48AM
  • Vtun over OpenSSH by ripcrd (Score:1) Tuesday September 23 2003, @11:18AM
  • Peter Gutmann has published a coda/followup... by durval (Score:1) Thursday September 25 2003, @07:30AM
  • Re:Arm chair security experts by Codeak (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:31PM
  • Re:I think... by dnoyeb (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:34PM
  • Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by noahm (4459) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:39PM (#7028921)
    (http://www.livejournal.com/~nlm_morgul/ | Last Journal: Friday April 30 2004, @12:40AM)
    Linux is only considered more secure than windows because it has less attacks. Not to mention the script kiddies don't bother to learn Linux, they learn Windows which is on their systems at school, work, home, at the library, at kinkos, at their friends houses.... etc...

    This crap got modded up??? I felt sure when I first saw the comment that it would it -1 at mach 3. Especially in light of articles like this one [slashdot.org].

    Not only that, but if you think about it, blaster and slammer and all those thing... They were only single "attacks", writen presumably by one single person. The nature of the insecurities is what allowed these worms to be as disruptive as they were. You imply with your post that the security of a system is inversely proportional to the scale of the deployment of that system. I'd love to see some evidence of that.

    noah

    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Well... by brkello (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:33PM
  • Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Abcd1234 (188840) on Monday September 22 2003, @05:41PM (#7028938)
    (http://del.icio.us/Abcd1234/)
    Of course it'll have a similar number of holes. After all, there's nothing about OSS that makes the software fundamentally more secure. BUT:

    1) These holes are far less likely to be in the base operating system implementation, as the OSS mantra is generally to put as much logic in user-space as possible.

    2) These holes won't be covered up and released only after the vendor has decided to let us know about them.

    3) These holes will be fixed up very quickly (in general, anyway), in individual patches or point releases, without onerous licenses attached to them, and without fear that the release might break the rest of my operating system.

    4) Because OSS products use open standards, if one particular package is simply too insecure, at least I can change to another product and have things interoperate (eg, switching from Sendmail to Qmail/Postfix/MTA-de-jour).
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Well... by E-Rock (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:01PM
    • Re:Well... by Abcd1234 (Score:2) Tuesday September 23 2003, @09:33AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Karma whoring and a gross misrepresentation by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @05:41PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Windows is Not Attacked More by repetty (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @05:43PM
  • Re:Paragon of good crypto design? by Hatta (Score:2) Monday September 22 2003, @06:16PM
  • Re:Arm chair security experts (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HidingMyName (669183) on Monday September 22 2003, @06:39PM (#7029342)
    This is open source, figure out where to submit your patches or else you are nothing but an arm chair security expert.
    This is a very unfair characterization of Gutmann's work. I read the posted article, and in it Peter Gutmann gives thoughtful analysis and cogent suggestions about how to fix the problems (although the complete rework of vtun sound's it will take a lot of time). I would much prefer Gutmann to do his analysis than have him doing package maintenance, he is far from being an arm chair security expert. I don't think it is an issue of his skill, it is an issue of how he should be allocating his time, and I think he is doing the right sorts of things for the community.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Arm chair security experts (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kfg (145172) on Monday September 22 2003, @07:47PM (#7029813)
      The problem with Einstein is that he was just an armchair physicist.

      Why didn't he just shut up and do something?

      Can someone tell me when expertise, perception and wisdom became "worthless"?

      "Excuse me sir, but did you know that your door lock is faulty?"

      "Hey, don't give me none of that talk mister. Just shut the hell up and fix my lock. OK?"

      "Listen. . . asshole. I didn't design the lock, I didn't make it and, more to the point, I'm not the jerk who put it in your door. It's your design, your lock and your door. You fix. Now FOAD."

      Open source is about sharing, not about making the other guy responsible for your cockups.

      KFG
      [ Parent ]
  • Re:I HATE MAC'S by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday September 22 2003, @07:54PM
  • Re:Arm chair security experts (Score:5, Informative)

    by Halo- (175936) on Monday September 22 2003, @07:55PM (#7029875)
    Peter Gutmann is a serious expert. I write security code for a living. (For IBM) Peter Gutmann has writen a few seminal papers such as "A Layman's Guide to ASN.1" which is required reading for anyone coming on the team.
    [ Parent ]
  • Gutmann deserves kudos, you twit (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 0x0d0a (568518) on Tuesday September 23 2003, @12:45AM (#7031460)
    (Last Journal: Sunday October 03 2004, @04:03AM)
    This is open source, figure out where to submit your patches or else you are nothing but an arm chair security expert.

    Absolutely absurd. I can't believe you wrote this. People who are good at writing code donate code to free software projects. People who are good artists donate art to free software projects. Yet, somehow, when a noted cryptographer does a (somewhat acerbic) security analysis of *three* open source packages and lists fixes, somehow you feel that he hasn't contributed anything.

    Incidently, I'm curious if you're aware exactly how much it would cost in consulting fees to get someone like him to sit down and review a given product. This guy contributed a lot more in terms of intellectual value to those three projects than the forty-five people that sat down and wrote five-line patches to remove gcc warnings (not that their work isn't appreciated, but still).

    He deserves our thanks, not scorn.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Arm chair security experts by Jim Nugent (Score:1) Tuesday September 23 2003, @06:07AM
  • 29 replies beneath your current threshold.